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Friday, 28 April 2017

Liberal drift to engulf Wales?


The Dean of Salisbury addresses Gay Pride marchers.       Source: Facebook

The above still from a gay pride video on Facebook last Summer shows the Dean of Salisbury, the Very Rev June Osborne, encouraging participants to be strong in difference, standing against "prejudice and hatred" and to march with pride in Salisbury after she gives the parade her blessing.

Lobbyists interpret 'dislike' as 'hatred' and 'disagreement' as 'prejudice'. Allegations which stick whether or not they are based on factual evidence. Charges of homophobia are used as a matter of course to stymie any discussion on the legitimacy of accusations that LGBT+ people are treated unfairly. Say it often enough and people will believe it without checking the facts. Introduce something and people will get used to it. That is the strategy and it has worked, hence the liberal drift of the Church.

When a senior church person speaks, people are expected to take note. The fact that senior church persons increasingly speak not for the Gospel but for the advancement of liberal values in the Church makes the problem all the more serious.

Even though the implication is false, 'spread love not hatred' is a mantra that has become fully in tune with Anglicanism in the UK today as it drifts away from Christianity towards paganism. Love is all but the meaning of love has been twisted to mean acceptance of just about every desire. If you are not 'for' you are regarded as 'against'.

The image of the Dean of Salisbury at the gay pride march is considerably different from the image projected on the Church in Wales website where she is presented as a thoroughly competent woman who will take the Church forward. But forward to what? The irony of the 'homophobia' charges after Jeffrey John's rejection by the Electoral College will not be lost when the reality of another LGBT promoting appointment dawns on unsuspecting Anglicans in Wales. June Osborne previously lent her name to the suppressed Osborne Report on homosexuality which should have been published in 1989 and was finally published in 2012. Some think the Report damaged her chances of preferment in England.

The die has been firmly cast in Wales. Interviewed in Llandaff Cathedral on BBC TV News yesterday evening bishop John Davies candidly explained  that: "There is no truth whatsoever in the allegation that the bench of bishops or indeed the Electoral College of the Church in Wales is homophobic. I have said on countless occasions that homosexuality, participation in civil partnerships is no bar whatsoever to ordination in the Church in Wales whether that be to the order of deacons, priests or bishops."

The charge of homophobia was clearly absurd given the grovelling apology by the bench of bishops to the LGBT+ community for perceived errors. There followed the Changing Attitude, Iris in the Community propaganda film alleging homophobia while promoting the LGBT+ cause despite the  gay friendly stance of the bishop of St Asaph who not only has appointed a LGBT chaplain but has a transgender ordinand waiting in the wings. So at some stage there will be a 'she' at the Altar though she is he, preferring to be thought of as she.

All minorities are regarded as acceptable in the Church in Wales with the exception of orthodox Christians. After the stitch-up which saw the first woman bishop in Wales involved in MAE Cymru's 'Saints and Sparklers' event it appeared that things could not get much worse.

What has become known as the liberal drift in England is overwhelming the Church in Wales with seemingly no-one able to repel it. When the bishop designate said "I do want to be a bishop for absolutely everybody, [including] those who might have wished for another candidate", did she really mean everybody, including loyal, conscientious Anglicans who have found that their Church has left them without provision.

Para 346 of the Osborne Report will be of particular interest for traditionalists:
We believe that the bishops, as the focus of unity of the Church, need to affirm the catholicity of the inclusiveness of the Church. The bishops have an important role in helping the Church live with unresolved issues. The way to resolve the conflict and tensions between groups is not by exclusion of one or more minority groups.

Exclusion has been used as a weapon in the Church in Wales since the retirement in 2008 of the  Provincial Assistant Bishop. Every minority has been deemed worthy of inclusion except orthodox Anglicans. Are they not worthy of love?

This problem has become all the more pressing with the appointment of a second women bishop to the most Anglo Catholic and populous diocese in the Province. Many more Anglo Catholic clergy who have kept the faith find themselves with nowhere to turn. They deserve better.

I hope the new bishop of Llandaff along with the rest of bench will now consider the dire position of the orthodox minority in the Church in Wales. Many of these loyal Anglicans are now elderly, often lonely with little to sustain them other than their faith but after years of service they find that their church has left them.

The bishop designate claims that women can make a difference. To date that has been wholly negative resulting in a code of practice designed for exclusion. If women want to make a difference they can start by making arrangements to include all, not just all those caught up in the liberal drift.

39 comments:

  1. Truly not wishing to come off as facetious here, but "nowhere to turn?" Was not the Ordinariate set up for just that purpose? I certainly don't wish to be saying (or seen to be saying), "get thee to the Ordinariate". People make their own calls for their own reasons. However, whether you love it or hate it, the Anglican Church has nailed its colours to the mast ... slowly and painfully ... but surely. So at what point do we say "well, you pays your money and you makes your choice"? If the latest developments in Anglicanism truly have moved us so far away from that "which has been held at all times and in all places" as to negate our true witness, I'm not sure what a parallel stream of self-defined orthodoxy is doing for the mainstream Anglicans or the traditionalists. Rome and Constantinople both view a church as being "in communion" as a whole. They don't ask if you held the line against women priests, gay marriage, etc., thus preserving your holy orders. They just ask if you were in communion (however impaired) with a Church that did (or didn't). Point being: we all knew that, once women bishops were voted in in principle, one would turn up in Llandaff or wherever in due course. The money having been paid, those who stayed have made their choice. Why? ... I've no idea. (Perhaps a good person here might enlighten me ... that's a genuine ask.) But to suggest they've nowhere to go is a bit disingenuous.

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  2. @ padre.will - I do agree with you.
    Mrs Osborne would not be in her post if she had failed to follow the liberal social agenda. The new Bishop is keen on inter-faith dialogue, does this mean that she is more concerned about the followers of Islam that about provision for traditional Anglo-Catholics?
    It has been intimated and frankly stated by members of the Bench that it is most unlikely that the Provincial Assistant Bishop will ever be replaced.
    It seems that the (Roman) Catholic Church has fundamentally changed since Vatican 2, and it may be profitable to seriously analyse things as they are now.
    So to answer your question padre.will : folk have stayed because firstly, there are misconceptions in relation to the Catholic Church, and secondly people have hung on because it was thought in dealing with fellow Christians there must be some hope.

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  3. What would Jesus say?28 April 2017 at 21:05

    It isn't just Wales.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-39749203
    It is now unacceptable to even hold a different point of view never mind express it.

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  4. Having read some of the vitriol poured upon some of the contributors to this blog, I would hardly wish to reveal my identity and suffer the same. But I write as one of those who, if not campaigning for women to be ordained, did not oppose the move either. I suspect that many of us, from this wing of the Church, were motivated by a sense of wanting to espouse justice, by concerns for mission and evangelism -the negative image that an all-male priesthood might project to modern world - and by a sense that God could call many to serve Him, as he wished, and that the ranks of the ordained ministry were not ours to constrain. I still believe that. I still hold, too, that there is scant Biblical evidence to argue against women becoming priests. But having said this, I have lately, changed, and no longer accept that what the Anglican Church has done unilaterally, in ordaining women to the sacred ministry, can be justified as an action of the Catholic Church.
    Any worshiping community can do, of course, as it wishes, in this, and in other respects. But they have to accept that they do so, no longer as the Church Universal, but as an ecclesial, Christian community, as the former Pope suggested. In this regard, Padre Will, here, is absolutely right: the Ordinariate is the only place on offer for those who wish to retain any claim to be catholic and Anglican. In reality, I suppose, the writing was on the wall a long time ago. It is only now, with the recent episcopal appointments in Wales, that we are truly understanding what those words really mean.

    Luke

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  5. I cannot see what is so deeply alienating about joining the Ordinariate that otherwise sane people would prefer to languish in hopeless misery in the Church in Wales waiting to be exterminated one by one. One thinks of ghettos in Poland in the 30s. Ideas, anyone?

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  6. And what of us who are evangelicals? What happens to us when the rejection of biblical authority is too much to bear? If you play to close to the cliff edge there is every danger you will slip and plunge to your doom. This obsession with the liberal social agenda is not only disturbing and a distraction it is in direct opposition to 2 millenia of teaching and understanding scripture. Only an ecumenical council with the authority of old can change the catholic teaching of the church on such matters. In terms of global Christianity we are in danger of becoming a sect and must not go any further. We need a church that God can bless if we are to stem the tide. We need leaders who will preach the gospel of the Kingdom and not the message of secular liberalism.

    I fear with bishop-designate more of the same even if she is hugely competent as a senior cleric. Is she really the best appointment to put evangelism at the heart of everything we do? Although I do like the idea of some being very wary of their backsides being kicked hard by number 72!

    WHAMAB

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  7. At one time many of us laughed, whilst today I agree entirely with Luke. The Church in Wales (not 'of' Wales) is no longer part of the Catholic family, save only by impersonation. The ordination of women merely opened the flood gates to a sea of liberalism. Why waste any more God time on such an outfit?

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  8. Where do evangelicals go? The loyal, possibly tithing, motivated for outreach and mission cohort need a lifeboat too.

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    1. Interestingly, I understand that Ordinariate groups prefer to be known as an 'Ordinariate Mission'.
      I have an Evangelcal friend in England who has comfortably joined an Ordinariate group or Mission.
      In joining the Ordinariate ,one is received into the Catholic Church and therefore at liberty to worship in any Catholic church. However,the Ordinariate Mass retains aspects of Anglican patrimony-using some 1662 prayers,and I gather you may find Evensong in some groups.

      http://www.ordinariate.org.uk/news/portal.php

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  9. Evangelicals might with profit learn from the example of the late Archpriest Michael Harper, whose pilgrimage took him by slow and seemingly indirect steps from a curacy at All Souls', Langham Place to leadership of the UK Antiochian Orthodox deanery, as might Anglicans of all shades other than convinced Papalists, who have their Ordinariate. Don't be put off by cultural differences, the more striking of which only apply in specifically ethnic/expat communities and which are anyway not of the essence. There is considerable inner correspondence between Orthodoxy and the best of classical Anglicanism, as may be seen for example in this paper, delivered 70 years ago but as relevant today as it was then, even if in the intervening period the outward circumstances of Anglicanism have changed somewhat. http://anglicanhistory.org/orthodoxy/chitty.html

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    1. I attended a lecture with Father Michael Harper in 2008 who spoke on the ministry of Symeon the New Theologian - fascinating lecture on Christian mysticism and the pneumatology of the Orthodox Church which was so interesting coming from one so involved in the charismatic movement of 1960's.

      Thanks for the answer Matthew.

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  10. Before attempting to address the issues raised by padre.will, my apologies to Whamab for the omission of Evangelicals.

    In Wales traditionalist Anglicans have been sidelined under Barry Morgan's headship. In England acceptable arrangement are in place although WATCH is busily trying to unpick the agreement.

    In his 2012 statement, "Women Bishops: Enough Waiting" Abp Rowan said: "But our challenge has been and still is to try and make it good news even for those within our fellowship who have conscientious doubts." Conscientious doubts do not evaporate and can apply equally to Roman Catholicism, for example over the infallibility question.
    http://rowanwilliams.archbishopofcanterbury.org/articles.php/2654/women-bishops-enough-waiting

    As Rowan put it (Rowan's Rule p.77) "I would have had to deal with the infallibility question at some point, though in fact it tended to be my Catholic friends who said, 'We don't believe that either - just keep your fingers crossed' ". Anglicanism is a broad Church, Catholic and Reformed, which has attracted many former Roman Catholics. No crossing of fingers. Home is where conscience speaks.

    In suggesting that "the Anglican Church has nailed its colours to the mast" a sense of proportion is needed. It may be so in Wales, and indeed in England, but the Church in Wales is one of the few provinces to go their own way. Of the estimated 85 million Anglicans world wide, Wales accounts for around 0.04% of the Communion and falling.

    To join the Ordinariate is to become a Roman Catholic despite its Anglican patrimony. It should be joined out of conviction, not for convenience. Crossing one's fingers is not a conscientious solution. For clergy personal circumstances may present further obstacles. That is why I wrote that for many Anglo Catholics, and Evangelicals, there is nowhere else for them to go. To exclude them from the Anglican Church by making unacceptable conditions is not only a betrayal of promises, it is un-Christian.

    As for the solution, another Assistant Provincial Bishop would be inappropriate. Last August after the 'Conference to Preserve the Breadth of Anglicanism in Wales' a 'Society' solution was mentioned by the bishop of St Asaph as a possible answer. Previously Archbishop Morgan banned bishops from crossing the border to come to Wales. He has gone. His tyranny should have left with him opening the door once more to a truly broad Anglican Church.

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    1. I note Ancient Briton that you seem to be pulling up the drawbridge when the Ordinariate is in sight, and I sense a fear of the term infallibility, which is a very rare happening. There are the Marian doctrines to which Anglo-Catholics subscribe.
      Why is it acceptable for Barry to make pronouncements with regard to women's ordination which Barry claims is true and right; this smacks of infallibility. That the CinW accounts for only 0.04% of the whole Anglican communion emphasises the error of the Welsh church.
      You mention about 'keeping fingers crossed' with regard to infallibility. This reminds me that some Anglicans cross their fingers during the creed and decline to recite " one Holy Catholic Church". They thus deny that the Anglican Church is Catholic (reformed or not). It is more appropriate to fairly describe the Anglican Church as Protestant because it separated itself from the Catholic Church. How can we claim to be Catholic and not subscribe to the teaching thereof.

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  11. Alwyn from Abertawe29 April 2017 at 18:23

    OK. Yes. I get it. June Osborne is political correctness incarnate. Did you realistically expect anything different? That said, here are some positive spin-offs.
    1. The Punka-Wallahs on The Green and in 39 Cathedral Road will never have moved as fast their little legs can carry them. The endless coffee breaks and arse scratching are a thing of the past.
    2. I am reliably informed that Ms Osborne will not pussy-foot around incompetence and arrogance. Good-bye, Capon. Eventually.
    3. She will not want to be identified with Barry Morgan, especially as he is deemed complicit with the cock-up over her friend Jeffrey John.
    4. Her promotion of a thoroughly catholic ethos at Salisbury Cathedral will mean the end to dumbing-down on high days and holy days. I can see the ad in Croeso: 'Free to a good home, a second-hand nave altar.'
    5. She will expect 'Her Team' to earn their pay and to put in the hours that she puts in.
    6. She is, allegedly, professional to a T. All the paperwork is in order and transparent. Good-bye hushed-up accounting.

    Is that enough to be going on with?

    I detect in this appointment an element of 'right you buggers, we'll show you' from the Bench Sitters to the Llandaff malcontents. If I were them, I would be checking my pension statement.

    Hip. Hip.

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    1. Pension statement? Phew!!! In 1994 they couldn't produce a proper statement for the clergy like normal employers only letters. Unlike employees of the RB, clergy pensions were handled at 39 Cathedral Road. Following the Provincial Court 1997, they were switched to Quantrum a recognised pension manager. Work that one out.

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  12. It is good to see so many in Wales considering the Ordinariate option; but as a member of the Ordinariate, can I say that you would be VERY WELCOME. We are engaged in mission, and need more loyal anglo-catholics to join us. There is a real chance for us to preserve the best elements of Anglicanism while being reunited with Rome. You really are wanted, and needed. The Ordinariate is not a last resort; it is a great opportunity.

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    1. We'll be meeting soon Edwin.

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  13. A very kind welcome from Mgr.Edwin Barnes who may dispel all your fears.

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  14. I am not seeking to discourage anyone from joining the Ordinariate Simple Soul. I mentioned infallibility as an example of the difficulties some people struggle with, particularly older, cradle Anglicans who can look back through many decades with affection only to be stamped on by newcomers pushing their political agenda.

    The injustice perpetrated by progressives should not place loyal Anglicans in that position. The bishops need to correct their error.

    My thanks again to Fr Edwin for his encouragement. I know from my own experience that Cymru'r Groes will not be alone on his journey. Godspeed.

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  15. Once again Alwyn o Abertawe sheds light into the dark recesses of the C I W. The traits which he attributes to her make her more fitted for employment in the Curia than Llandaff. By all means let her muck out the stables there but Alwyn has not identified a scintilla of Holiness in her track record that fit her for episcopal office even if such a course was valid in Catholic Order.
    One of your correspondents identified earlier in this blog that Mrs Osborn's nomination represents a gesture of contempt by the bench sitters towards the faithful. May I suggest that the Heraldic Arms of Llandaff be changed to Two Fingers on Sable Tincture with Baton Sinistre.

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  16. If these pages are anything to go by, then Llandaff Diocese is in a pretty parlous state. It is beset by controversy, a lack of confidence and stands in need of healing. Which is why, it is astonishing that the Bench of Bishops has appointed Dean Osborne as the 72nd Bishop of the Diocese. For, whilst there is nothing to suggest that she is not well-equipped to do the work, professionally, she is, by virtue of her gender, immediately unacceptable on ecclesiological/Theological grounds to so many people in that Diocese.
    Why on earth have the Bench behaved so myopically in this regard? I can only conjecture it is because they, themselves, do not know Llandaff, its history and its traditions. Or if they do, then they have, deliberately, disregarded them.
    Any sensible, pastoral and pragmatic response to the current crisis – not too strong as word – would have sought out a neutral candidate to enable a process of reconciliation and unity. That person need not have been bland - though clearly, such a quality is no bar to the episcopate in Wales – and they could have brought focus, goodwill and hope from the outset.
    The Bench of Bishops was faced with a mess and have, by their amazing ineptitude, succeeded in compounding it a hundred-fold.

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    1. an ex-Anglican, by now, but agree with you 100% - my theology was always radical, but feed-back from many devout churchgoers since coming to live here in 'Greater Cardiff' have one thing in common (for starters), namely that Anglican worship has lost its mystery and holiness .. and as for preaching - clearly a dying ministry by now.

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  17. Twenty quid says that the preacher at the consecration will be the ever-ubiquitous Lady Lucy Winkett of Piccadilly.

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    1. Your father, a fine traditional orthodox Anglican priest would have something to say to you today young man. Which is, 'yes, I agree with you son'.

      Mission Impossible

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  18. As a former Anglican, now a member of the Ordinariate here in South East Wales, may I echo the words of encouragement and welcome expressed by Monsignor Edwin.

    Some have tried to portray the Ordinariate as a haven for malcontents. Whilst this may be the case for a tiny minority, it is just not true otherwise. In reality, the Ordinariate is composed of Catholic Christian folk who have made a principled and theologically informed journey, often at great personal cost (loss of a beloved church building, worshipping ‘family’ – and in the case of clergy - livelihood, income and housing). However, in return we have been given the greatest of gifts – spiritual peace, sacramental assurance, the joy that only true Communion with the See of Peter can bring.

    In doing this, we have also brought the gifts of the Anglican Patrimony into the Catholic Church, as was the intention of His Holiness Benedict XVI. Solemn Mass is now celebrated every Sunday at 11:30am at the church of St Basil and St Gwladys, Rogerstone, with fine music and a dignified liturgy. To our surprise and delight, Diocesan parishioners have started to attend the Ordinariate Mass. I was told this very morning, ‘Your little group has brought life back to this church … the singing, the music, your enthusiasm and devotion, the love of the Mass ….’

    This is the Mission of the Personal Ordinariate of Our Lady of Walsingham and I encourage those who are wounded and distraught by the latest developments in Llandaff to (at the very least) explore this option. You will be welcomed with open arms.

    Seek and ye shall indeed find.

    Ramillies


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  19. Dear AB, Friends have asked me to provide an explanation for the proposed new Armorial for Llandaff under Mrs Osborne.
    Here it is:- Two fingers on a black background with an arm grasping a baton on the female side demanding membership of a lineage to which she has no legitimate claim. Always happy to oblige.

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  20. The problem is Evangelical and Anglo-Catholic.... you all want the endowments....no council tax..a free house ( better than average)....a stipend with fees to top up. Worth about 60K.

    For what profits a man if he gain the whole world, but lose his soul.

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  21. Yes, indeed, Robert. I don't know about 'all' wanting the endowments and the house etc. But it is undoubtedly true that many have not really counted the cost of discipleship, nor are they prepared to pay it. When Jesus asked Peter if he loved him (agapas), Peter replied (my paraphrase), Yes, Lord you know we're mates! (philo). It is not the right answer. Jesus loves those He saves from sin, he doesn't collude in matey-ness so as not to offend them. The point is that if we love Jesus as he loves us, we must be prepared to follow where he leads, even to the point of sacrificing our own way of doing things (they will gird you, Peter and you won't be able to make your own decisions).
    So, to me, it's not all about identifying oneself as Evangelical or Anglo-Catholic per se (these can degenerate into sub-cultural entertainment preferences). No, a person who accepts the sacrificial love of Christ in exchange for our sin, should feel ashamed of daring to consider Christ, and his true legacy, in terms of matey-ness, or a 'nice' way to pass the time on a Sunday (only).
    Mrs Osborne sounds like a splendid choice of Chief Executive, and the Ordinariate has a lot to commend it, as does the Anglican Catholic Church (celebrating its 25th anniversary as a diocese in the UK). But, as you mention, Robert, what profits a man if he gain the whole world, but lose his soul.
    The signs are on the wall to help people to find a better way... maybe to the Ordinariate, maybe to the Anglican Catholic Church? But, if people really do want to find a place to share the journey with fellow disciples, they have to leave self behind. No baggage allowed.

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  22. The question is does the church want a chief executive or a priest ordained in the Apostolic succession.
    For us to be connected to our faith, we must stay connected to the source of our faith, which is God's revelation in Jesus, who was sent by God to reach out to humanity. The disciples of Jesus have handed down our faith in an unbroken chain,viz the Apostolic Succesion.
    God's revelation is 'truth' .God is the source of the truth in which we believe .
    'Truth' is 'Truth' : and the most important fact is that it does not evolve.
    Herein lies errors introduced into the Church in Wales and some matters in the Anglican Church in general.
    The truth is that that those who were sent out -the Apostles- were men,and these men represented Jesus in taking His message into the world. For a woman to stand at the altar in representation of Jesus Christ introduces gross confusion into our faith,and amounts to believing and accepting that truth evolves; if something is 'true' then it cannot change.
    Thus it is not a matter of convenience to align oneself with the Catholic Church or the Anglican Catholic Church ,but it is a decision of conviction to adhere to the truth revealed through Jesus.

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    1. Bonkers - if you know anything about the doctrines of the church, you will know that they evolved through ecumenical debate and hearty (sometimes heartless(!)) discussion. Truth is discovered through the evolutionary process of engagement with reason. faith and tradition; the Anglican patrimony.

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    2. You mean stitch up your Grace?

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  23. Truth is enduring and indissoluble.
    However Protestantism evolves complying with personal opinions and the fashions of its adherents.
    Anglo-Catholicism sought to adhere to catholic beliefs but has been smothered and diminished.

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  24. At the age of 40 or 50 something, it is very hard to pack your bags and start again. Many clergy will have family to support and financial commitments which they entered into, under very different employment circumstances in Wales, a couple of decades ago. So, they cannot leave the Church, not in any reasonable person’s reckoning. As such, to impose on them an overseer, who is unacceptable on Theological grounds, with no prospect of alternative provision, is more than pastorally insensitive: it is callous, mean spirited and so very unwise. And I write as an Affirming Catholic. We know that this blog is widely read in the Church in Wales. So, we can hope that the Bench will register these concerns and respond in a timely, pastoral and appropriate manner. To do otherwise, would represent a fundamental neglect of its collective duty of pastoral care, which emanates from each of the bishops’ promises, made at the time of their individual consecrations.

    Luke

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  25. Jesus said: I am the way, the truth and the life (John 14.6). We don't 'discover' truth through an 'evolutionary process'. Pope Benedict also said: "Today the concept of truth is viewed with suspicion, because truth is identified with violence. Over history there have, unfortunately, been episodes when people sought to defend the truth with violence. But they are two contrasting realities. Truth cannot be imposed with means other than itself! Truth can only come with its own light. Yet, we need truth. ... Without truth we are blind in the world, we have no path to follow. The great gift of Christ was that He enabled us to see the face of God". (Pope Benedict xvi, February 24th, 2012.)
    We align ourselves with Christ (the Truth), not align Christ with our own evolving 'reason', our own evolving 'faith', and our own preferred 'tradition'. Doing the latter is to succumb to relativism (relative to our own individual preferences). The Holy Catholic Church doesn't need to 'evolve'. However, Scapegoat rightly observes that the doctrines of the church were agreed at the Ecumenical Councils (coming to one mind, homothumadon, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and never contrary to revealed scripture). But the question now being posed is whether doctrines (as accepted for nearly two thousand years by countless Christians, amongst whom were the wisest and most learned holy scholars) can be 'updated' or rejected by a few supposedly enlightened relativists? I think such attempts to be hubris. Nowadays violence against traditional orthodox catholic truth comes with a lot of heat and very little light.

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  26. Father Miles -I suspect that Scapegoat is not referring to the Ecumenical Councils (21) which are convened by a Pope, but is using the word 'ecumenical' as it is more commonly used these days, that is to imply involvement of all types of Christian churches,(as, in fact, the previous Archbishop Barry used this word).
    If the Anglican Church in its catholicity, is accepting of the Ecumenical Councils, then the Bishops of the Anglican communion were not at liberty to sanction the ordination of women to the threefold ministry.

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    1. No, I meant the ecumenical councils of pontifical calling.

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  27. Both Father Miles and Simple Soul demonstrate graphically that when enduring truth is spoken the use of a megaphone is unnecessary. Take note Mrs Osborne. When the batteries run flat - so will your words and your opinions.

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  28. The first seven Oecumenical Councils were convened by the Emperor, not by the Bishop of Rome, who attended none of them.

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