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| The Bishop of Bangor, Andy John, at his Enthronement as Archbishop of Wales Source: Church in Wales |
The Archbishop of Wales, Andrew John, announced he was retiring 'with immediate effect' on Friday, 27 June, following a 'turbulent period for the Bangor diocese' but did not intend to retire as Bishop of Bangor until 31st August.
Back in 2022 I wrote in Disaster looms closer:
"This extraordinary behaviour (above) of the newly enthroned archbishop of Wales, Andy John, takes place in the sanctuary in front of the Holy Table where the holy sacrifice of the Mass takes place. Nothing it seems is sacred in the Church in Wales any longer...
"The first prediction of the bishop of Bangor after his enthronement as archbishop of Wales was 'Same-sex Church in Wales marriage hope within five years'. The Holy Grail of the renewed, diverse, and inclusive Church in Wales dominated by its bench of bishops."
From Beyond a joke last year:
The latest 'first' for the Church in Wales is History is made as Church appoints its youngest ever bishop. Emphasising his same sex relationship we are told that in his spare time, 'David enjoys spending time with his fiancé, Marc Penny, and his cat, Gordon'. Not a 'first'. That record goes to the bishop of Monmouth who lives with her same sex partner.
From the BBC's article Church in Wales calls for investigation of diocese: While there is no suggestion the archbishop behaved inappropriately, the church's representative body said there must be a "change in leadership, procedures and governance in the Diocese of Bangor".
The full facts are concealed by the publication only of summaries of 'two critical reports' but the resposibility for this sorry state is the archbishop's resulting from his appointments which appear to have been based on sexuality rather than sprituality to fullfil his stated dream of Same-sex Church in Wales marriage within five years'.
Andy John appointed an assistant bishop to run the diocese of Bangor while he concentrated on his duties as archbishop. He now has none while Bangor has a bishop and an assistant bishop
As senior diocesan bishop he, presumably, will be resposible for organising the election of the new archbishop.
His meddling looks set to continue along with that of his mentor, Barry Morgan.
The farce continues.
Postscripts
10 July2025 Statement on recent media coverage Church in Wales, Provincial News
BBC Wales investigates on July 10 2025 BBC iPlayer
11 July 2025 New Dean appointed to Bangor Cathedral Church in Wales
From AB archives Theology today
22 July 2025 Election of the Archbishop of Wales Church in Wales, Provincial News
What a shame that isn't the phograph of the gormless gurning fool appearing in the media news articles.
ReplyDeleteHas anyone thought to send a copy to the BBC?
Re post not appearing on the other blog: we've had this problem before and it's simply down to page size. Folk need to go to the bottom and click on "load more" - that's all.
ReplyDeleteDoes anyone know the identity of the 'priests' who attended the 'Seven Last Shots of Christ' on Good Friday 2023 as reported today in the Daily Mail? Are they the same priests who went to Rome June 2023 and who also attended the Royal Thames Yacht Club in Knightsbridge 2019?
ReplyDeletehttps://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14877417/Trainee-priest-sexually-assaulted-worshippers-booze-addled-cathedral-choristers-did-seven-shots-Christ-drinking-game.html
PewBangor
What shirt colours are we talking?
DeleteNoholesbardsey
The Director of Music shaped choir life and culture; the Sub-Dean had authority and managerial oversight of the Cathedral. Together, as secret lovers they set the tone and protected each other.
ReplyDeleteBBC watcher.
BBC Watcher, clearly you don't watch the BBC, as your facts are incorrect. The Director of Music and Sub-Dean were not 'lovers', and never had a relationship of that nature at all. Just because you want an excuse to complain, do not spread false rumours. Exodus 20:16.
DeleteBenedictus.
They were. They did. The truth will out eventually. Swifty is correct.
DeleteThe Director of music is happily married and a good person, he is unfairly taking alot of the blame for issues which have been caused by Sion R Evans ,and Bishop Andy .
DeleteThe pews arrived at the same time as the drinking game. Canon Tracy explains in this article how they hadn't quite been costed yet but that the sale of the old ones would offset the expense. https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/bangor-cathedrals-old-oak-pews-26770207
ReplyDeletePewBangor
Is she naive, culpable or talking through her proverbial?
DeleteAsaph
Canon Tracy is none of these things. She was simply speaking the truth that she knew at that time. As clearly highlighted in other news reports, Sion Rhys Evans purchased that furniture with little input from others - so Canon Tracy was likely simply acting as a spokesperson. Think before you rush to rash conclusions. Proverbs 18:13.
DeleteBenedictus.
Who were the team that went down to London to meet the maker of the pews? Not sure Sion acted entirely on his own in regard to the purchase. So who went with him on yet another jolly, and who paid? Was there a stop off at the Yacht Club?
DeleteShotsInTheDark
Proverbs 15:23
DeleteAsaph
Benedictus....anyone who knows will also know that the lovely Canon has got to her position through sycophantic, blind-following, unquestioning acceptance. She was no doubt a puppet, but was a trustee. A trustee who didn't ask the right questions and didn't challenge injustice. She was perfect putty for the Dear choir member who liked to rule the Den.
DeleteOut-of-it
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/07/05/british-website-advertising-virgin-muslim-brides/
ReplyDeleteThe joys of multiculturalism know no limits.
Bangor Cathedral will soon be just another mosque.
Bewildered
Bewildered, are you Islamophobic, uneducated, or a mixture of both? You needn't answer, I think your writing speaks for itself. What does this article have to do with Bangor cathedral at all? If you feel a need to spout your hatred for people of other faiths, do that in your own head. There is nothing to be gained from spewing your bigoted hatred online.
DeleteBenedictus.
With which aspects of the Telegraph article do you take issue?
DeleteThe relevance to the Bangor disaster is that no-one from the cult in Wales is speaking out or calling it out, rather like the deafening silence over the activities of the grooming and raping gangs so widespread around the UK for the last two decades.
There is no such thing as Islamophobia, it was invented to defend the indefensible and Islam is no religion but a very nasty political ideology.
Speaking the truth isn't hatred nor is it bigotry.
You think?
More probably merely another left wing Grauniad reading progressive claiming to be the liberal elite.
Bewildered
I take fewer issues with the article and more with your comparison and clear hatred. In addition to this, saying that no one is speaking out from the CinW is categorically false. Just one example is the letter published in the Church times a few weeks ago.
DeleteYou are entitled to your own opinion, but you cannot disregard a whole faith because you see it as a political ideology. In the same way that Islam is weaponised politically, so is Judaism, and even Christianity. It is not 'the truth' that Islam is bad, or that multiculturalism is wrong either. I call your words bigotry because you condemn that which is different to you for no reason, you also clearly do not make an attempt to understand other faiths, and condemn them. If you want to go into the topic of multiculturalism and “retaining culture” — remind me where Christianity and Islam both originated from?
Not that my political views are relevant, but no, I do not claim to be the 'liberal elite'; I simply claim to be a compassionate human being who does not feel the need to put down other religions because of my own views.
Benedictus.
I'm neither Jew nor Christian.
DeleteI treat all religions with equal contempt.
Islam, historically and currently is the most violent and most virulent, it is the clear and present danger to humanity.
Bewildered
Islam is responsible for the most widespread practise of slavery too and it continues to this day.
DeleteBangor Cathedral is already a mosque. Muslim prayer has been offered there, making it a mosque, and once a mosque, always a mosque (according to Islamic Law)
DeleteEvangelical Ed
Excellent summary of the deep and systemic rot in the Church in Wales here:
ReplyDeletehttps://tswyatt.substack.com/p/the-rot-goes-deep
Northern Faithful
It's a good effort but it's a great shame the author only goes back as far as 2008 in terms of the rot on the bench and he's omitted any and all mention of the various Llandaff scandals surrounding His --Darkness Byzantine Barry, Bonaparte, Captain Peacock, the Organ appeal swindle, the lack of accounts, the still unexplained much more depth to the swamp of filth that is Barry Morgan's legacy resignation of Deaness Janet Henderson' after only nine weeks, the Songs of Praise debacle, the Cathedral choir redundancies, the disappearance and etc.excommunication of the little catholic curate Ceirion Gilbert, Capon's poison pen letters, the missing £70k and Aga Saga, the slimy amphibian Mr Toad and so on.
DeleteSo much more depth to the swamp of filth that is Barry Morgan's toxic ☢️ ☣️ legacy.
I'm really cross about all this, really cross. This shameful episode in the life of a medieval cathedral on its 1500th anniversary year is absolutely sickening, the details of which are too depressing to repeat as more and more filth emerges. In a year it could have been a wonderful testimony to the city and diocese, we get this. This is generational damage folks that only a most godly, gifted Dean could start to reverse.
ReplyDeleteThis all goes back to Barry Morgan, he gave Andy John preferment and others who have proved themselves utterly unsuitable for episcopal office. Something deeply sinister and sinful has plagued the bench for decades. It's time for the GB to stand up and take control of the church and curtail the powers of the bench and the House of Bishops.
John should not be allowed to continue until the end of August, thereby manipulating who succeeds him. This retirement farce is hardly the transparent restart we need.
Whamab
And how, Whamab, did Barry Morgan - so unpopular in his own diocese of Bangor before and after the Clifford Williams fiasco - become archbishop? The same unwritten, non-constitutional, stupid and dumb donkey-nodding recent 'custom' (rather than law) that the most senior Bishop of the province gets the job. Ditto followed then with Plonker-John and no doubt with Gregorious it will become cemented in tradition. Well let's stop it and not act like bloody Welsh sheep following the other, year on year, to slaughter. There is no written edict. Custom of picking the oldest nerd in Wales to become Eisteddfod Archdruid in silly robes doesn't mean he or she get it. Even they have modernised.
DeleteThe Church overfloweth with sinners but true penitents are rarer than hen's teeth.
DeleteBrother Cadfael
Whamab, I agree that John should not be allowed to continue to August. It stops the cathedral from moving forward, and surely his retirement (firing) was meant to show some degree of humility, but this is entirely juxtaposed by the fact that he now has direct influence over his successive dean and bishop.
ReplyDeleteAlso, as a Welsh speaker myself, I completely understand the need to speak Welsh, but I feel like requiring a Welsh speaking dean has narrowed the pool of applicants for the role to an extreme extent. This explains why the role had to be advertised twice. It would not surprise me if the incoming dean is inexperienced, and they will not cope with the obviously tense environment. This will not be a fault of the dean, but rather another fault of Andy John and the CinW RB.
Benedictus.
This is the first time I have contributed to this blog. I maybe have not always agreed with the tone.
ReplyDeleteHowever this time is different. The events described by the BBC after Good Friday at Bangor Cathedral take this whole sorry mess to another nadir. During my time in parish life I think of the extraordinary people I had the joy to serve. People who cared deeply for God and His Church. This diocese by now does not deserve those people. Whoever they were on that Good Friday have torn the heart out of those people.
And who knew? More than we suspect. Everyone attached to the so called 'leadership' are implicated. None of the archdeacons, nor any of the canons should stay in position. They are deeply tainted, every single one of them. David Morris writes in this week's diocesan news letter Y Ddolen that yesterday they were interviewing for a new Dean. How on earth has that been allowed to happen. Rather like a thief appointing his own jury. Everyone attached to leadership-so-called in the diocese should have no say in its future. It should have been one of the RB's top recommendations.
And yes this mess goes back to the Electoral College of 2017. The top 'candidate' was the Archdeacon of Arfon, Meurig Llwyd Williams. The then Archbishop did not want him for reasons of ecclesiastical polity that prevailed at that time regarding the whole of the Anglican Communion. Mr. Llwyd paid the price for that misguided polity. But there were two others who were more than ready to put the knife in. One 'lady' who is now in the north of England in high office turned to her comrade in arms and said audibly: Here goes. She proceeded to demolish Mr Llwyd's character. Immediately after this appalling episode, the then chair cleverly-or not!- adjourned the meeting for lunch, thereby denying a right of reply and allowing the poison to seep int members' sandwiches . It was one of the most unworthy episodes in electoral college history. And in walked the present bishop of Bangor. Stage managed by church policy and personal vitriol. Needless to say both culprits who torpedoed Mr Llwyd were themselves in the end torpedoed by the present regime.
I was told that the present regime was not able to work with Mr Llwyd. Mr Llwyd wisely left and followed a very distinguished career in the diocese of Europe as Archdeacon under Bishop Geoffrey Rowell and is by now serving the Irish church. Mr Llwyd was intellectually bright, and of a deep Catholic faith. Had polity and vitriol not ruled the day the diocese of Bangor would not be in this mess. Heads should bow in shame for what happened. Three heads in particular.
What this points to in the end is a need for reform within the Church in Wales.
The present situation in Bangor is a symptom of the rot in the body politic. Bishops who swallow hook line and sinker cheap and trite 'evangelical' 'strategies' for church growth. There is clearly a brain drain within the ranks. We are no longer attracting sufficient people of intellectual abilities and therefor key leadership positions are filled by second-sometimes-third raters. Proper analysis of the state of religion in Wales in equally filled by hasty and in the end nonsensical thins like the Harris Report implemented over night thoughtlessly. Things like messy church are promoted as the 'answer.' We are living with a church that we haven't got and ignoring the one we have.Bishops are desperate and hence the structures reek of crisis management. A sign of that is top heaviness. Why does Bangor need three archdeacons, plus their admin support, an assistant bishop, a bishop's chaplain? A good team, we are told. But without a stadium, without supporters, without even a ball, and clearly by now with the rule book torn up in this game where the only score are own goals.
Rhigyfarch
I agree. Perhaps not all the clergy needs to go, but certainly those who were complicit in these events absolutely should.
DeleteBenedictus.
As one who has contributed here from time to time over many years, AB and many many contributors have been sounding alarm bells, flashing red lights and whistle-blowing from almost the Advent of Ancient Briton.
DeletePrior to that were the greatly missed satirical Llandaffchester Chronicles which were such fun.
Rum Pansies, SVEEPEE and His --Darkness the Grand Mufti of all the faiths.
The writing has been on the walls for decades and literally none of the latest revelations should come as any great surprise to anyone.
Every electoral college in memory has been a fiddle to get the "right" person in place and the Holy Ghost hasn't had a look-in.
Discernment my Easter donkey.
Have you forgotten the Philip Masson email scandal, canvassing for his child's Godfather Jeffrey John followed by the Data Protection revelations from Jeffrey John himself, along with Shirley's revealed "Heigh ho" attitude which left Llandaff saddled with the disaster Juno? You had the bench to thank for that.
There's nothing left worth saving, let it implode entirely and good riddance.
Bangor Cathedral and Diocese
Delete“A nest, dear boy, that not even a viper would wish to enter!”
With apologies to John Charmley.
Has anyone else noticed that the cathedral is clearly trying to omit information about the more nefarious proceedings in the Bangor diocese? The media is constantly reporting on the various safeguarding issues (all of which are to do with people over 18, but it is a buzzword which makes people think of child abuse), and now the choir, but few major news outlets seem to be reporting on the more significant ongoings at the cathedral. The party for Sion Rhys Evans' ordination, how Sion Rhys Evans was let through by the archbishop, and the bullying of various members of staff has not made it through.
ReplyDeleteVery poor reporting from the BBC today. The title and content initially seems to condemn the choir, but the only message of substance therein is that there is a drinking culture in the choir. While this is certainly less than ideal, it is normal in every cathedral choir in the country, whether you like it or not. The simple solution here is to employ a choir chaplain.
The REAL issue highlighted in that BBC article is that a member of the choir was ASSAULTED by a trainee priest. How is this not the title of the article? How is the conduct of Andy John, and this priest not being investigated more thoroughly? It is truly appalling that more trivial matters are being over-reported while issues such as this slip under the radar. No doubt, the CinW press releases have something to do with this. I'm particularly not fond of this reporting, as it makes it seem like there is substantiative blame to be meted out on the music staff, when in reality any minor mistakes they have made are irrelevant when compared to the bigger Bangor issue.
Benedictus.
The BBC not reporting accurately or thoroughly on the issue. I wonder why that is? Perhaps it's another finger-print left by the Dear choir member who likes to rule the Den? I wonder who that could possibly be?
ReplyDeleteThe BBC would not allow a conflict of interest like that. It also wouldn't make sense for the choir member you seem to be persistent on calling out to condemn the choir and ignore the other issues. I think this is perhaps overspeculation. My issue was more with the CinW trying to cover up major issues and making mountains out of molehills in other respects.
DeleteBenedictus.
BBC, conflict of interest?
DeletePriceless.
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
@Benedictus et al
ReplyDeleteThe sad truth is, Benedictus, that neither the Print Media nor Broadcast media has much of an interest in the Church of Wales and, in the shoes of any circulation manager, or TV news intake editor nor would I. And I'm not surprised given how few of their readers attend church and even - far, far fewer - attend CinW churches. Although the Press knew the reason for Archdeacon Andrew Jones's sudden demise - not a pleasant story from accounts - even the red-top tabloids couldn't give it a one paragraph mention. 'Dirty Vicar' stories no longer sell newspapers apparently. Man Bites Dog stories do but don't go out trying to snap at the ankle of the Mad Dog Andy. He's rabid.
There is, however, a hilarious photograph which popped up today on a Bangor Gwynedd rolling scroll - and I only wish I had been clever enough to capture it - taken at Weatherspoons Pub, Bangor, filled with 20 or more genuine clergy and choir all raising their glasses towards the camera. Not, I have to admit, Bangor cathedral boozers, but a cracking photo which would do Bangor's antics justice. Hopefully, lessons leaned are for the Last Suppurs not of the Last Supper.
Rotten to the core and has been for decades. I was confirmed in the Church in Wales in the 1980s. I remember a retied canon in the congregation. He was a closet paedophile. I was one of his victims but have never talked to anyone about what he did to me.
ReplyDeleteI happened to know Andy John (same social circle, different school). He was a nonentity. I also knew Gregory Cameron at that time and saw him from time to time into my twenties. I got fed up with his obsession with money and status. He thought he was destined for a senior bishopric in England and was no doubt delighted when the Times tipped him to be Archbishop of Canterbury some day. He ended up in the backwater of St Asaph and is now engulfed in a swamp. His wife is a Catholic, they were married at Westminster Cathedral about 12 years after his ordination. Unusual.
If he's the next archbishop of Wales it will be for 4 years max as he's 66. I'm amazed he's got this far considering his weight.
It's a pity the Charity Commission can't close down the entire Church in Wales. Stuart Bell (whom I knew also!) maybe saw the depths of the swamp and got out. If I were still living in Aberystwyth I think I'd be tempted to join him.
Cymraes yn Lloegr
Well said Madam.
DeleteI couldn't agree more.
It has been a cesspit for decades.
Cymraes, I am absolutely furious and so deeply saddened to learn that you were abused as a child and have carried that unimaginable burden for so long, feeling unable to speak out about it. No one should ever have to endure such trauma in silence, and nor should anyone ever pressure you to share your story before you are ready, or at all, if that is your decision.
DeleteThat said, if you ever decide to seek help or report what happened, I truly hope you are met with the care, dignity, and support you absolutely deserve. Even though the Canon may be deceased, the Church in Wales has a responsibility to stand by victims of historic abuse, and they must do so with transparency and integrity. There may be others who have suffered in the same way at this priest's hands, and learning of their stories together with your own could bring some measure of justice, closure or reparation. But I fully understand that this could also bring even more pain, and so respect your ongoing silence.
My anger at what you endured as a child, and the systems that failed you, is profound. Please know that my thoughts are with you.
PewBangor
Even Sandringham isn't immune to the malaise.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.telegraph.co.uk/royal-family/2025/07/05/kings-church-divided-row-vicar-and-choirmaster/
It is not strictly true for the bishop to say he was unaware of the drinking culture. That disappoints me that he would say that. He did not and does not drink heavily as far as I am aware, but we all knew.
ReplyDeleteUtterly shameful shenanigans before the High Altar.
ReplyDeleteThe Watchman
The gurning gormless chocolate teapot confirms his own unsuitability for the role.
ReplyDeleteIf he didn't know then he damn well should have known.
"He said he did not know about the "drinking culture" around the choir in Bangor Cathedral
"The idea that they went out after important services, that they went out until late saddens me," he said.
"It gives a bad impression of the dio
Good riddance cese. It was a shock to hear about heavy drinking in the diocese."
He said allegations of people making inappropriate jokes around children were "unacceptable" and that changes in culture were necessary.
He acknowledged financial mismanagement had been a problem and that a "lot of mistakes had been made".
The biggest single mistake was voting the chump in as Bishop of Bangor in the first place. The rest is a comedy of errors compounded on top..
Good riddance.
Just attended evensong at the cathedral. The service was very uneventful and was as it should be. There was a fairly significant congregation, and the choir seemed very well behaved, much the contrary to what the reports suggest. Furthermore, the quality of the music was surprisingly impressive — despite only having 8 singers (lay clerks and volunteers) everything was sang flawlessly and with precise intonation (I myself am a church musician).
ReplyDeleteThis leads me to believe that perhaps what is reported on the news is not true at all, and is meant to distract from the real issues at hand.
Jeremy.
The services, themselves, have always been uneventful and carried out fairly appropriately. Nothing new there.
DeleteBut what has been reported and what has caused concern isn't the public-facing aspect. It's the shenanigans in the practice room, the sacristy and behind the scenes that quite rightly has come under scrutiny.
Crude jokes, sexual innuendo and peer pressure to drink has absolutely no place amongst those who should be trying to be portray that Christianity is a kind, gentle and morally upstanding faith. And yet it's all too common.
Nobody expect any human, Christian or otherwise, to be perfect or sinless, but taking pride in and flaunting those sins blatantly is really not acceptable, particularly among those who are ordained or in a postion of responsiblity for minors.
Except these are all exaggerations, and do not refer to any continued behaviour. The description of a culture by the media is wildly inaccurate. No lay clerk or the Director of music has ever taken part in the activities described in the news. It should not be a surprise that students in the choir drank, clearly lessons need to be learned but that is to be expected. The BBC news report was also inaccurate — no one got drunk in the cathedral, and no children got drunk or were in the presence of people drinking excessively.
DeleteJames
Could it be PRIDE?
DeleteWell James, since you appear to be in the know, who was it drinking the Seven last Shots of Christ?
Please do enlighten us.
James, I can’t say whether the events mentioned by the media are accurately reported or not. Like you say you have, I also have very good sources, but I wasn’t there, so I can neither confirm nor deny. Your conclusion may be right - only a thorough independent investigation by a credible and competent authority stands any chance of establishing the truth of what did or didn’t happen. There is, however, an alternative possible explanation for why everything seemed so uneventful when you visited for evensong. In the judicial world, another well evidenced truism is the safest time in any organisation tends to be just after a major scandal has broken. That’s because everybody is falling over themselves to demonstrate that they are not implicated in what has happened, or prone to the same failings as have been established/alleged. So it could be that the reporting isn’t accurate. It could also be that everybody still there is on best behaviour to try to convince those looking that ‘there’s nothing to see here.’
DeleteMy apologies - my last contribution should have been addressed to Jeremy as well as to James.
Delete@Jeremy
ReplyDelete@Jeremy
ReplyDeletePerhaps dear chap, you have been misdirected by Trip Advisor, What's On, Ticketmaster or whatever. If its impressive, flawlessly sung with precise intonation music you are after, try joining an Operatic Society or go to one of the wonderful choral performances with the Halle Orchestra or whatever in Liverpool or Manchester. Bangor cathedral isn't a concert hall; it was established 1,500 years ago as a place for worship, prayer, the 'propagation' of the Bible and its Gospels even flawlessly intonated (if boring) sermons.
If you want MUSIC put your hand in your pocket and buy a ticket to a musical event. Not my cuppa tea, but there was a crowd-puller in Birmingham yesterday: 'Black Sabbath' .... but no prayers. What an odd position you appear to promote ... church is a place to go to enjoy music. Try Classic FM or Radio 4 then your appreciation won't get interrupted with the 'God-Bit' adverts.
God forbid!!
@Old Bill
DeleteI never said that the point of going to church was the music. You clearly do not understand that the point of evensong is to listen and reflect on scripture set to song, and also that is a significant part of Anglican worship.
Jeremy.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteJeremy, this is the issue. The cathedral puts on a good act with amazing talent and excellent props. Nearly half a million pounds worth of props. But what is the culture and the drive behind this performance? No doubt they will argue for the glory of God, but it is really for the glory of themselves.
ReplyDeleteJames, I really do hope you are the mange Tout. As an ex bangor cathedral bod myself, dont try to kid anyone with that argument. There is a well established drinking culture at that cathedral and the children there have witnessed more than is appropriate for them. I may even get in contact with Wendy Lemon tomorrow to ensure the CinW are investigating fully what the innocent had to suffer. There is also a track record of individuals in that choir behaving similarly in other churches they habe been apart of. You are either a very bad liar or incredibly deluded. If you are Mange Tout, St Giles will eat you alive.
Anglesey Boy
@Anglesey Boy, Sorry I am genuinely new to the blog and I have no idea who ‘Mange Tout’ is or which St. Giles church you refer to. I am not clergy or a direct part of the cathedral or church in Wales — I just have good sources.
DeleteDo as you will, but as I understand it the ‘drinking problem’ is isolated incidents. Clearly, an attitude shift is needed and more strict rules are needed but the solution is not punishment. I would only advocate for more severe punishment for the trainee priest that assaulted a choir member.
James.
Anglesey boy — I think I agree that there needs to be a more spiritual connection. However, although I am not ‘in the know’ I feel like the solution to this is not to condemn everyone and the good artistic work (that I saw today, at least) going on in the cathedral — even if it might appear theologically detached to you. The solution I would go with is to educate people more clearly and create better links.
DeleteJeremy.
Nobody is giving the names of those present that Good Friday evening in the pub. Where any of the current canons or the now assistant bishop present?
DeletePewBangor
PewBangor: as the Cathedral makes anyone with a pulse a Canon, the answer is probably yes. And definitely yes for Assistant Bishop.
DeleteWhich is why the cesspit needs emptying and a fresh start making.
If it can be conclusively established that the Assistant Bishop was present and taking part in the ‘seven last shots of Christ’ on Good Friday, that alone should be reason for the RB to demand his resignation. That behaviour on that day most certainly constitutes conduct unbecoming a clerk in Holy Orders, in my view. An aggravating factor in the judgement would inevitably be that as a Bishop, he can reasonably be expected to hold to an even higher standard of behaviour than a rank and file member of the clergy.
DeleteDear Cheesemaker and Readers
ReplyDeleteI of course suspect - in fact know - who Old Bill is. I have followed his blog comments for at least 12 years and many of them have been 'spot on'. But I am not him any more than UnRuthy is Ruthy. I nip into and out of Ancient Briton as with the 110,956 other UK viewers or reported 5,823,190 worldwide until AB stopped counting.
When drawing my name in the published Ancient Briton site on assumption of who the author is, be very, very careful Cheesemaker. There was once an assumption that 'Old Bill' had in fact been a police officer. That was and is incorrect. But if, as I suspect, you are the 'Cheesemaker' troublemaker at Bangor Cathedral keep me out of your fight. You have very wrongly brought my name into your input per @mark.roberts. I am surprised that AB allowed this through.
Be very careful who you name on public sites (and AB please also take note). You are either the person who claimed 'wounded' in Kosovo (in years of your infancy that alone military service ??) bitten apparently by an Adder (although when examined, the bite marks to your wrists were self-inflicted); went to Police reporting attempted sexual assault (and no further action taken) and the same who purports (with no MoD service record to support it) that you or look-alike was member of HM Armed Forces.
Word of advice 'Cheesemaker': Concentrate on what you might do best and curdle yourself the worst of swill-stink cheeses: Vieux Boulogne, Epoisses de Bourgogne and the sulphuric, rotting Maroilles.
Do NOT embroil my name again in your Ancient Briton 'claim to fame' submissions. Address yourself to Old Bill but don't embroil my name in your venom again. Ancient Briton, like any blog site, is not beyond laws of libel or accountable. Yours is very close to personal defamation of my name. Take note, take caution and take legal opinion 'Cheesemaker'
Mark Roberts
My aplogies Mark.
DeleteMost names used are pseudnymns, hence it slipped through.
Comments should be on topic and not involve third parties.
They are accepted on trust as being factual and will be removed on receipt of evidence to the contrary or if considered gratuitously offensive.
I agree with Mark Roberts.
ReplyDeleteI wonder whether St Padarn’s were informed of the assault by a trainee… Are they still in training?
ReplyDeleteTeilo
As I understand it and according to news sources (I think, the daily mail) they were made to apologise and their training was stopped. However, I don’t feel that this is adequate either.
DeleteJames
James, in a previous comment you stated confidently that "No lay clerk or the Director of music has ever taken part in the activities described in the news.", and yet here you are relying on the Daily Mail to provide your information.
DeleteIt would be better not to create categorical claims when you are absolutely wrong in your denials, especially as it can make one look very foolish.
There is a definite absence of the Holy Spirit in the hierarchy of the Church in Wales. Where is love, faith, wisdom, proficy and discernment.
ReplyDeleteWhy are we continuing to give preferment to those without these spiritual gifts. Why do we continue to make the same mistakes?
Are there no Holy God filled clergy available?
In a word, no.
DeleteBut indeed, even if there were, those of queered theology, DEI persuasion and --Bazza's coven would sabotage any such preferments.
Im afraid, Celt, that God does not want, nor is blessing the Church in Wales. I fear that years of apostasy and blatant rebellion from the will of God has resulted in it being cut off. I gave the early part of my life to the CinW and since leaving I have never felt more liberated and filled with the presence of the Lord. There is only one end in sight for it. Sorry to be dismal, but accepting this fact can bring happiness in the long run,
DeleteFaithfulbrother
So the outgoing Bishop of Bangor is choosing the next Dean of Bangor, possibly a person who would not have been the choice of the next Bishop of Bangor. That could lead to friction at the top. Common sense suggests that the post of dean should be left vacant for a few more months until the next Bishop of Bangor is able to appoint a person of his or her choice as dean, a key figure in the new Bishop’s new senior leadership
ReplyDeleteteam.
Cymro Alltud
Previous decisions and appointments made by the chocolate teapot are precisely the reasons why and how Bangor Cathedral and Diocese are where they are now.
DeleteThe RB.must surely act immediately to prevent the cretin playing any further part in the life of the Cathedral, Diocese and the Church in Wales.
The interviews for the Dean of Bangor Cathedral were held last Friday. I wonder who was interviewing?
DeleteMore particularly, we should wonder WHO was being interviewed. Was the interview held at JB Weatherspoons and instead of a representative of the RB's HR Department being there, perhaps a clinical psychologist to determine why any idiot would want to add St Deiniol's to his/her or 'Them/Us' CV. You can bet that +Andy's cronies Bob Townsend and David Parry were on the panel ... unless of course they thought themselves so self-important that they'd fancied their chances !!!! What a sorry state of affairs.
DeleteCeri Llan
Let's hope someone sees the merit in choosing not to appoint anyone now.
DeleteDoubt it though.
Bewildered
Andy John’s insistence (on Bwrw Golwg) at only recently knowing of the drinking culture in his cathedral is rather undermined by the other story on the BBC this weekend of a Bangor ordinand being withdrawn from training for assaulting two people in a drunken encounter in the cathedral. Surely it was John himself who took the decision to stop this ordinand’s training? And that by doing so he made himself aware of the circumstances of this man’s actions? This happened in late 2022.
ReplyDeleteResistance
https://nation.cymru/news/child-sexual-abuse-case-referred-by-bangor-diocese-to-police-in-2020/
ReplyDeletemore revelations
Bishop Andrew John was aware of far more within his Diocese than that which 'Resistance' cites. A particular priest (self admitted to be 'Gay') at the highest of Diocesan level who he appointed against all 'sound minded' judgement due to well published history is example. The family of a certain teenage, but gullible, young man took their complaints of unseemly association to Andrew John and they were dismissed. They went to the Police, but police correctly refused to act because the young man, despite his immature mental state was over 'age of consent'. In desperation, they turned to the Press. Journalists telephoned for comment. Only then did His Magnificence act. The said very senior cleric with some unhealthy association to Lampeter public lavatories resigned his appointment and his Parish but to this day, no explanation from the Bishop of Bangor or PR team as to why. 'Its a personal matter. He deserves his privacy' was the scripted response.
ReplyDeleteAndrew John has a track record in an absolute inability to 'manage'. Some on the AB site blame Barry Morgan for this. Truth is that when it comes to sheer inadequacy, Barry Morgan should sign up to Andrew John's School of Dishonesty and Cowardism.
The full truth of Andrew John's period of office in the diocese of Bangor has yet to be explored.
Anglican Unscripted 920
ReplyDeleteStart viewing at 23 minutes to get straight to the point.
https://youtu.be/13dZTbGWFPw?feature=shared
O when is a saintly and holy man of God going to be given preferment in the Church in Wales?
ReplyDeleteWake up electors - you have one vote just like the Bishops do. Remember there is a new option to reconvene the electoral college for Bishop if the first session of three days fails to elect. Do not cede your right to choose to the Bench whatever you do!
There are good Welsh speaking priests out there for Bangor.
Whamab
Amen!
ReplyDelete`The Gwynedd North community policing team said: "A sophisticated cannabis cultivation has been uncovered by the Clear, Hold, Build team in Bangor. On Tuesday 1st of July 2025, North Wales Police received information suggesting that cannabis was being cultivated at the old New Look site in Bangor complete with lighting, ventilation and enough cannabis plants to start a small forest`.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/police-raided-former-new-look-32015521
Maybe the fumes from this enterprise were wafting into the cathedral !!!!
Be the "7 last puffs of Christ" next, you watch with a re-write of Stainer's 'I saw the Lord, high and lifted up' as the next choral premiere, but which clergy will be there this time?
DeleteHighAndMighty
is it just my experience or are many clergy these days complete narcissists?
ReplyDeleteAsaph
Many of them have been for years.
DeleteTreat it as a job rather than a vocation, ala chocolate teapot.
Why are the senior member of the clergy and the RB lying. We all know that AJ had to leave. He didn't retire. Why are they thanking him for all he has done. He has been a complete failure . Where is the transparency and truth. They are a laughing stock. They don't deserve our respect or thanks. It's just as well that we put our trust in God and not mere mortala.
ReplyDeleteThe "massaging" of bad PR and scandalous misconduct has been going on for decades.
DeleteIt's just business as usual in the penthouse suite at Callaghan Square, nothing to see here, we're not dwelling on the past but looking forwards.
Stop your giving.
Here's one that neither the C-in-W Press Office or Church notice boards hasn't advertised to its members: The BBCTV Wales programme schedule for tomorrow (Thuesday).
ReplyDeleteSpecial Investigation: 'The Sins of the Church' BBC1 Wales 22:50 hrs. Odds on that it's one that its one that TV-hogging Andy John would prefer not to appear on. Best that he goes to bed early!!!
I wonder if we’ll get to learn the identities of those priests who engaged in the drunken 7 last shots. Is it the same clergy who went with Sion on the freebie to Rome?
DeleteAsaph
Its an early bath for Andy John
ReplyDeleteIf 'early bath' refers to the excellent game of rugby Deiniol, then with Andy John and bathchums it would be an 'Up and Under'!!!! (if you're old enough to remember Eddy Waring)
DeleteAs diocesan clergy, staff and volunteers are expected to meet the highest standards of accountability, then the same must be demanded of the Church’s most senior lay officer.
ReplyDeleteSimon Lloyd, as Provincial Secretary, cannot remain above scrutiny. A serious breach of Trustee confidentiality occurred under his leadership. As there has been no independent investigation, no public apology, and no structural response to prevent recurrence, then resignation is the bare minimum response to failed governance. This is about integrity. The silence from the centre contrasts sharply with the pain being felt on the ground by congregations, and diocese left exposed. A Church that preaches transparency and justice cannot excuse quiet negligence at the top. If trust is to be rebuilt, responsibility must be seen to be taken.
Pew Pew Barney McGrew
Integrity?
DeleteThe RB?
The cult in Wales?
You surely jest?
Priceless again 🤣🤣🤣
For everything else there's MasterCard.
Simon Lloyd? Another Barry Morgan appointee to add to a shed-load of other inadequate cronies. My only observation on him is that the C-in-W on his appointment boasted him to be a leader of industry, a senior executive with wealth of business and leadership management at the highest levels of industry. WHAT !!!!???? Read his CV and he hadn't even reached middle management in a mediocre PLC company. A bit like appointing an unrecognised 2nd Class BA-Law degree holder to Archbishop and then claiming he was 'one of Britain's finest academic brains' Oh for the bullshit power of PR guff. Simon Lloyd, CBI-Failed, is also presumably of the RB?
ReplyDeleteThe future is bright, the future is +Bardsey
ReplyDeleteNoholesbardsey
Do you know something that we don't?
DeleteJust a joke.
DeleteNoholesbardsey
What has Simon Lloyd done?
ReplyDeleteCymro Alltud
Sweet Felicity Adams by the sound of it, again!
DeleteBewildered
Yet more filth being investigated.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cg5zygv9p69o
Here's hoping Plod invite Darth --Insidious for an interview (without coffee) to assist them with their inquiries.
DeleteDoes anyone know if they have appointed a new Dean after the interviews last week?
ReplyDeleteBangorians will have noticed that there's some odd-ball who's pitched up in a blue tent in the Bible Garden's next to cathedral. Maybe that's him; probably can't get into the Deanery until all the empty wine bottles and casks of beer have been carted off to waste-fill. And of course, we'd never know if a Dean has been selected or not while the order has been put out to all priests and staff not to talk to the Media (or congregants). [And as the cathedral boiler hasn't worked for years, no hope of a puff of white smoke either ...!]
DeleteWho cares?
DeleteWho would be so stupid as to accept?
Has His (Dis)Grace been served an eviction order already? Even I wouldn’t have been that harsh….!
Delete@AdClerum
DeleteThere's no problem getting a poof of white smoke.
The first we'll hear that a Bangor Dean has been appointed is when Church Times announces that he's been sacked ... !!
DeleteI must express, with no small measure of dismay, my astonishment at the audacity of the Representative Body- along with Mr. Simon Lloyd and those Trustees whose conduct has long been questionable—to suggest that the entire Church in Wales is in need of, and somehow subject to, a so-called “cultural audit.”
ReplyDeletePerhaps Mr. Lloyd would be good enough to explain, in plain and honest terms, how such a sweeping undertaking is to be carried out? I fear it is rich with irony, given that the RB itself has, time and again, demonstrated a lamentable lack of transparency, accountability, and indeed integrity—failings that cast a long and troubling shadow all the way from Callaghan Square and beyond.
Shame on you, Simon, and on you, Medwin, for these continued lapses- for failing not only in your duty of leadership, but in your moral obligation to hold the Trustees to proper scrutiny. It is a sorry state of affairs indeed.
Pew Pew Barney McGrew
To see the Cathedral of my Ordination portrayed as somehow a place of abuse is horrific to me. I really think Cameron and Lloyd should go now. I'd like a review on the advice Chinnery gave on safeguarding cases. Medwin Hughes is still reasonably recent in his appointment. Lomas, Vann and Davies are too. Stallard, unfortunately, is too close to the catastrophe that is Bangor. She should step down from the CNC for ABC immeadiately. This is beyond nuclear for CiW.
ReplyDeleteWhamab
Whamab, any thoughts on +Bardsey? He’s a recent appointment too - Is he the one to deliver redress in Bangor?
ReplyDeleteNoholesbardsey
Absolutely not!
DeleteRoger Scruton
Noholesbardsey....you cant be serious about +Bardsey. That boy has charmed his way through since the beginning. He is exactly the same as SRE and Mange Tout, an under qualified, underexperienced yes-man who has brown nosed his way to the top. I know he's popular with the masses, but they dont always make the best leaders. Certainly not in a stage of crisis.
DeleteThe CinW is not going to be able to unpick this one in time. The vile network of incompetence is so tangled, it won't be unravelled before the inevitable demise and collapse of the whole thing.
Outofit
No, rightly or wrongly, he is a John appointment. That alone taints him. Maybe the new Archbishop will allow him to be their assistant. If not, he needs to be made redundant.
DeleteWhamab
Even if he did not participate in or benefit from any misconduct there may have been, which still remains to be established, he is way too close to it all, and allegedly only saw the light and reported once he had fallen out with the former Sub Dean. Hardly the kind of record in leadership that inspires confidence.
DeleteThis is so often the case with +Bardsey. Gets himself involved in the fun and games and when he realises he's in it up to his neck, throws colleagues under the bus. I was in college with him, he did the same thing there to a beloved friend.
DeleteOutofit
His (Dis)Grace’s comments about his resignation (sorry retirement…I keep forgetting) have been published in the Church Times today. The self-pity, lack of recognition of the scale of his failures over many years, and lack of appreciation of the impact of his actions on others were staggering and made me feel physically sick. What little empathy I may have had for how he must be feeling has well and truly gone.
ReplyDeleteAny empathy I may have had for the fool evaporated many years ago. He's a self-serving dolt.
DeleteDr Manon C James to be new Dean of Bangor Cathedral
ReplyDeleteManon Ceridwen James will be an extremely good dean
ReplyDeleteThat remains to be seen; I hope, for the faithful of Bangor’s sake, she ends up being, but the time for naff poetry and yoghurt knitting is past. It’s going to take balls of steel to deliver what’s needed there and rebuild.
DeleteVestments Manager.
Yet another DEI box ☑️ ticking appointment.
DeleteAnyone know how she self-identifies or her chosen pronouns?
Setting aside the fact that Manon James is of the St. Padarn College of Knowledge (oh dear) and a wannabe stand-up comic (failed) the photograph of her in Nation Cymru 09 Sept. 2024 flaunting herself in a pub sums it up!!! Her self-written CV says nothing whatsoever of any management skills, leadership, financial acumen or even achievements in parish surrounds. Degrees galore, but no experience.
ReplyDeleteBut the pub photo might come back to bite her.
My sources in theological education have some very interesting things to say, but I’m going to keep my powder dry for now, as although I think it foolish to have made an appointment at this point (especially with a Panel chaired by one who may yet be found to be implicated in the Bangor fiasco), and incredibly unwise of her to have accepted, anyone deserves a fair chance in a new job. So we’ll see. I also wonder, having prior experience of some of the people, how much of the toxicity found lies in the culture set from the top.
DeleteManon will not make it. She is grossly unprofessional. Steeped in scandal from years back in Bangor Diocese and is incredibly indiscreet with the private and personal information she is privy to. She will be eaten alive.
ReplyDeleteJames victim
She applied, she has a pulse, she's a welsh speaker and from that part of the world. Give her a chance. If it doesn't work out, she can always take early retirement.
DeleteGuto
She has a pulse, speaks Welsh but has bullied a few poor Ordinands into needing therapy and PTSD treatment after their time at a certain institution on a former theological college site.
DeleteAnother James victim
I can too attest to the indiscreet and zero confidentiality. Often resulting in trauma. I do however feel better for the poor Ordinands at the Asylum but sorry for Bangor.
DeleteHer position in St Padarn's is a very senior one. She is a fluent Welsh speaker and a priest of long experience. This appointment is credible. Academics have long history of taking senior appointments in dioceses.
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure St Padarn's or the ordinands will be that disappointed though. Maybe that's a good thing? I pray she'll turn it around.
Whamab
A DThMin an academic does not make.
DeleteVestments Manager.
@Ad Clerum: Unfair of you to say her aspirations to become a stand-up pub comic have been a failure. It seems that her lifetime academic-study has focussed on Feminist Theology issues and after a chronicle of failed female priests and female Deans in Bangor (the latest being the quitting of the vicarette Minor Canon Ms Godfrey this year), that should cause a belly-laugh or two. It might even bring the house down!!!!
ReplyDeleteIndeed: feminism has gone most of the way towards destroying the Club of England and the Cult in Wales already, in its desperate attempts to delete the Apostolic teachings, so who knows, one more in a senior position might just push the Cult over the edge permanently.
DeleteWell at least she purports to have a husband called Dylan. If named after Dylan Thomas he could be the inspiration for her poetry writing (and liking for pubs). On the other hand, there was a Dylan in 'The Magic Roundabout' which like revolving doors epitomises the turn-around of Bangor Deans. What would Zebedee make of it all !
DeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
DeleteNeither of the above comments are from me.
DeleteSome other unoriginal piece of scum.
Bewildered
I was once sat with Manon and two other curates at a potty training event. We were having lunch. She and the other female curates were ranking the male Clergy in the diocese based on the quality of their bottoms. Stuart the now vicar of Betws y Coed scored the highest. I remember feeling really embarrassed and shocked by what I was listening to. And a little hurt as I didn't feature in the top ten. Who do I speak to about this? If the likes of Greg Wallace and Wyn get scrutinised for the same stuff, why not her?
ReplyDeleteShe also divulged very personal and private information about me to a family member, the family member was not aware of this information and it resulted in a very embarrassing discussion that knocked our relationship slightly. I have wanted to to report these two incidents for a while, but never thought they were perhaps significant enough.
However, I have been told today that she makes a habit of being very indiscreet with private information and has often abused her position and the information she gathers about upcoming Clergy by gossiping with all sorts of people. How would you even report this? Who would you ring or contact?
Sinner-forgiven-thanks-be-to-God
Report it to the RB (and Martin Shipton), then sit back and watch sweet FA happen.
DeleteBewildered
Oh dear. This is only day one - before her appointment has even been announced. Ought it be wise to have another Inquiry on top of independent inquiries into Visitation investigations etc. .... to enquire into how Deans are appointed and the qualities of those appointing to do so. Perhaps we oughtn't. Perhaps simply announce that it was all a big mistake, 'False News' etc. and that the process of finding a dean is ongoing and probably won't happen until a new Bishop and new Chapter have been found.
ReplyDeleteThat issue would be an issue to do with professional conduct and should be formally reported to HR for the Diocese.
ReplyDeleteI should clarify that she was not a curate at the time but the IME officer. And her knowledge of an incident which she revealed to a family member was gained through an official position she was in and a process she was involved in.
ReplyDeleteI have also remember an occasion when I was in college I had to set up the chapel for a Eucharist she was going to celebrate. I asked her what she wanted in terms of vestments and she said she wasn't going to wear anything and winked at me. I flinched at that comment and she put her hand on my shoulder and said I wouldn't have reacted like that if she offered 20 years ago. I was quite confused at the humour and also perplexed about how she thought my mind worked. Again, its something I wouldn't have mentioned, but given she would and has gladly held male colleagues to the same scrutiny, why doesnt she with herself?
It doesnt boad well for the culture change which is needed. Maybe she's changed over the years? People do grow with experience I suppose. I hope she can do what Bangor needs.
Sinner-forgiven
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
DeleteBanter. We accept it when male clergy do it. She doesn’t take herself too seriously and will be a refreshing change. I rate her hugely.
DeleteAsaph.
AKA Mrs Parry in Dyffryn Ogwen and persona non grata in Bethesda, Rachub and Llanllechid. Leopards and spots weigh heavily where she has been and good people have long memories.
DeleteThe Watchman.
But we don't do we Asaph. Men are being strung up for 'banter' across the country. This is exactly the culture that needs to change. "Oh it was only good banter...at least she doesn't take herself too seriously...I'm sure she will behave herself when it matters....she comes highly recommended". Change all those pronouns to help/him and it would be so different. I can't believe you Asaph....surely you cannot be that blind and hypocritical?
DeleteSinner forgiven
Let me tell it this way Asaph. A 20 year old female ordinand, going through health problems, asked her 40odd year old IME officer what vestmets he wanted for tea eucharist. The male IME officer tells her he thinks he might not wear anything and winks at her. When she reacts a bit shocked and confused, he then put his hand on her shoulder and says, "you wouldn't have minded, love, if I was 20 years younger, trust me". Still banter? Still the sought of humour that the new Dean would find acceptable?
DeleteSinner forgiven
Sounds like Randy Mandy, Carl Cooper's "friend".
DeleteBewildered
I sat in the cathedral recently and overheard female staff/priests commenting on how attractive university students were.
ReplyDeleteThese things are fine if it is the ladies!
Well, this Newyddion/BBC piece by the excellent Gwyn Loader surely destroys any credibility he may have had:
ReplyDeletehttps://www.bbc.com/news/article/c77vemg4r14o
I think the link has an error - it is nearly midnight and I've been to the splendid Llanofer Arms here in Pontypridd! It should read:
ReplyDeletehttps://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c77vemg4r14o I hope that works.
Ex-Archbishop was aware of sexual assault allegations https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c77vemg4r14o
ReplyDeleteA discredited bishop now exposed as a liar. He should resign immediately.
Resistance
He should lose his pension.
DeleteWords fail.
ReplyDeleteWhile I think Manon could be succesful as Dean of Bangor and the appointment seems credible, there has been questions around treatment of ordinands I know for a fact. Time will tell.
ReplyDeleteHowever, my beef is with the timing. The new Bishop should have been given 3 months in post before interviewing. I think there should be a Constitutional amendment delaying senior appointments where a Bishop has given notice to retire. Osborne did this with Llandaff, what a success that was.
The recommendation I believe was a 6 month interim appointment. Ignored again.
Electors remember +Bardsey should not be given a free pass to becoming diocesan. Its up to you. I would've thought a new start is imperative.
Whamab
Yes, it’s the timing There was no hurry to appoint a Dean. The Komor/Potter Report suggested the appointment of an interim acting Dean to ‘steady the ship’ before a permanent appointment.
DeleteThe rushed appointment could be seen as a kick in the teeth to the RB. The RB wishes to change the leadership of the diocese, but surely not for the second most important post to be appointed by the discredited present leadership team.
Is this the first time that the post of Dean has been advertised and decided by a panel? This must be the first time ever when the bishop has not been directly involved in the process of appointing the dean. The recent appointment in Llandaff, I think, followed traditional practice. (I didn’t see an advertisement for Assistant Bishop of Bangor!)
Every good wish to Manon. Who knows, in the autumn she might be elected Bishop of Bangor and able choose her own Dean!
Cymro Alltud
Hopefully they haven't squeezed Manon is as the continuity candidate, and she has outgrown her flirtatiousness and self-proclaimed love of gin,
DeleteGinless wonder
For once, someone appointed to a post in Bangor for which they have the years of appropriate experience and the gifts to actually do the job. This is a first.
DeleteNoholesbardsey
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
DeleteYears ago, I remember, having to submit to a very thorough and prolonged HM Government/MoD security process now called Enhanced Security Check (eSC) which is about as high as it gets if work later entails (albeit controlled) sight of Top Secret documents and data. At onset my interviewer asked: 'Now dear chap, is there anything you'd like to tell us from your background before we find out. And find out we will!' I admitted to once having met a Cabinet Minister who had once been a member of the Communist Party before realising they were not in mood for humour. I admitted to some earlier teenage pranks which had led to a weeks suspension from school to which my Spook said: 'Yeah, we know about that ... so thanks for your honesty'.
ReplyDeletePity therefore that in its scrutiny of clerics destined for higher office, the Church-in-Wales doesn't bother much with background vetting ... leaving that incidental and perhaps boring trivia instead to the likes of Ancient Briton subscribers, Nation Cymru bloggers and BBC whistleblowers to extract and make known. Well done everyone - and shame perhaps on Rev Canon Dr James for perhaps not putting her cards on the table at Interview. But then when her resigned archbishop is proved to be a liar, I guess she felt no need to be exactly honest either.
For me, they should have gone for Father Rhun as either Dean or possibly future next Bishop. He is a good family man of highest integrity who knows what it is to be broken, yet saved. His Welsh is also second to none. A prayerful leader who is rued by the wisdom of God is what we need, and Father Rhun fits that bill for me. How do you put forward a nomination to the college?
ReplyDeleteSinner forgiven
I finally got round to watching The Godfather and Godfather II.
ReplyDeleteI feel I understand the dynamics of both the Trump White House and the senior leadership of the Church in Wales so much better.
RageRage
Too late to stop the runaway train in the church's madcap speed to install their new Bangor Dean before even a new bishop can be appointed - or complaints gather apace. She was today given the keys to the Deanery to measure up new curtains etc. for her move. Only appointed on Friday, and 'keys of the door' Monday. Oooooooph!
ReplyDeleteWhy can't the RB move with such speed on the things that really matter?
Well, being charitable, one can hardly blame her for wanting, nay being desperate, to bid a hasty ‘fare thee not so well’ to the Lord High Most Excellent (just ask him) Prof Dr’s Reformatory for the Childer of Not So Gentle Folk…
Delete…and on the subject of curtains, I wonder if she’ll discover any boxes stashed away marked ‘tat, one gross, assorted…’ abandoned during the moonlight flit…
DeleteAny curtains left behind at the Deanery need a full DNA check as part of the investigation into the 7 last shots.
DeleteGuto
From what I gather, it should be 'curtains' for the whole lot of them.
DeleteFinally the shutters on the Deanery will be opened. I do pray she'll make a go of it. Perhaps the steel she showed at St Padarn's will be visited on those who've let the Cathedral down so badly. What is the Cymraeg for 'your services are no longer required'?
ReplyDeleteWhamab
Dear Mr Lloyd,
ReplyDeleteI believe you keep a close eye on the musings of this blog so I trust this message will cross your desk.
It is now three weeks since you convened the meeting of the Trustees of the Representative Body at Callaghan Square — a meeting which has, regrettably, become known less for its deliberations and more for its egregious breach of confidentiality.
I write, as one who has long held both the office and its officers in the highest regard, to express my profound dismay at the institutional indifference displayed by yourself and by Mr Medwin Hughes — a gentleman for whom, until now, I entertained the greatest respect — towards the fundamental necessity of trust, probity, and the safeguarding of confidence within the governance of the Church in Wales.
It is a sorry day when such basic obligations are treated with so casual a disregard.
Pew Pew BarneyMcGrew
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteIm not surprised the suggestion of the seven last shots came from the DoM. This is what happens when you have people of no faith leading worship in mother churches. This has been a long standing problem within Anglican tradition. Just as long as they can sing, just as long as the music is of the highest quality. It is not by definition of the word, worship. How can someone of no faith offer an act to something they dont believe in? If they aren't doing that, then it is not worship. Surely this isnt rocket science?!
ReplyDeleteDismayed and now a non-conformist, sadly,
Am always amazed at how people so confidently speak about my faith on here.
DeleteMy faith will be judged by God, not by you.
Who is the cathedral every night of the week saying evening prayer over the summer.
DeletePriests - occasionally
Me - yes
Members of the choir - yes
Ancient Briton people - no
I seem to remember that there's a parable about such behaviour.
DeleteSomething about a Pharisee praying most earnestly in the temple in front of an audience and already having had his reward.
This is a good point. There has always been the problem of the director of music who has been appointed for the excellence of the music regardless of faith. My experience is that there are many brilliant cathedral musicians who are also believers or, at the very least, respecters of faith. I have no way of knowing whether this applies in Bangor, but the point here, surely, is not that the suggestion that the idea of the Seven Last Shots came from a faithless musician, but that it was taken up by apparently faith filled clergy on Good Friday of all days. Does this point to a deeper problem? Nobody wants clergy who are puritanical miseries, but we do need clergy who know how to negotiate the boundary between frivolity and joy, and know when a certain solemnity is more appropriate. You can recommend this, or restructure that, put systems in place for communication or management all you like, but without that fundamental awareness that God is a Judge as well as a Saviour, and that personal holiness involves saying no to yourself on occasion, nothing much will change in Bangor or anywhere else. Fr Mark
DeleteSuperbly expressed, Fr Mark. The state of the DoM’s faith is a matter of supreme indifference to me - that’s between him and God. So long as he (and the other musicians) conduct themselves in a way that is consonant with the job they are there to do whilst doing it, that’s as much as I expect from any musician. They aren’t appointed as spiritual leaders in the way clergy are. Church musicians have always included some hard drinking/hard partying people. If they aren’t people of faith who make a commitment to certain standards of behaviour through basic Christian discipleship (or at least should…), I don’t see a problem with that in their own time whilst off the premises, if their behaviour does not cross the line into criminality.
DeleteIt’s a very different matter when it comes to the clergy. Like Fr Mark, I don’t buy into unrealistic images of faultless paragons of virtue placed on pedestals. But when we take up God’s call to ordination, that comes with responsibilities in how we conduct ourselves. It’s also a different matter for lay Christians, I think. Good Friday is a particular day of solemnity, and for any who call themselves Christians to be behaving in the way described in the reports on that day is absolutely unacceptable. When it comes to clergy behaving in that way on that day, especially in a public place, it is without question a matter of scandal and in a legal sense an example of conduct unbecoming a clerk in holy orders.
But there is no audience, just a few of us praying, maintaining the heart beat of regular worship, keeping the cathedral alive.
DeleteIm sorry Fr M and Fr D, but I disagree with you. The nature of worship within a cathedral puts the musicians and the director of that music on an incredibly high pedestal. To say you are indifferent to their faith or that it doesn't matter as long as they behave themselves falls grossly short of the standards and expectations of worship leaders as found in acts and Timothy. Or to say it's ok as long as they confirm to certain behaviours surely misunderstands the power of grace through faith. It's bad enough that these musicians were partaking in this sacrilegious party, but you are alright that it is even worse for clergy. Andrew Goodwin always used to say that if you go wrong, it went wrong a few bars before that. The pantomime she's the cathedral were putting on and claiming it to be worship has led to this behaviour. It will only get worse if not stopped now.
DeleteNon conformist
Joe may know, but the 7 last shots never actually materialised in the way that is reported here. Senior clergy were present, one subsequently now more senior than he was on that night, and the other now not a priest. Was it just a joke that went a bit too far?
DeleteFactchecker
@Non Conformist
DeleteHow would you deal with a boy chorister who wins a choral scholarship and is accepted into a Cathedral Choir to sing for however many years until his voice breaks but is , for example, a Buddhist or a Seikh wearing a turban?
Or a girl who wins a choral scholarship and is accepted into a Cathedral Choir to sing from potentially the ages of 7 to 18 and wears a headscarf or a face veil because she's Muslim?
It's only a matter of time!
Bewildered
Simple, it shouldn't happen. You should not have people leading Christian worship who are not confessed Christians or certainly not under catechetical instruction. But I'm afraid this has become the sad sad reason I had had to leave Anglicanism. "Jesus Christ has got nothing to do with it, you're confusing the issue" has gone from being a Victorian satirical jab to reality. It appears the Anglican church wants to be more than about Jesus Christ. But I fail to see what is more.
DeleteNon conformist
The penny still hasn't dropped for you, has it, Dismayed&NC?
DeleteYou see, it's like this.
The Clerks in Holy Orders are the priests and it is they, or monks etc, who should really be singing the music.
Historically, the Clerks in Holy Orders became lazy b'stards (nothing new there hey?) and paid "lay" people a tiny fee to sing the music in their place so they could stay carousing in Ye Olde Taverne of the Towne.
Hence the term Lay Clerks for the professional singers on the back row of Cathedral Choirs (not to be confused of course with zero hours burger flipper types).
Furthermore, it is entirely typical of Lay Clerks, Conductors, Directors of Music and Composers to frequent public houses after their sacred singing duties are finished for the day and engage in the singing of irreverent and bawdy ballads and the like (from where do you think Rugby songs have their origins?).
You might want to refer yourself to the rounds canons and catches of Henry Purcell , Michael Wise, John Blow, William Boyce, John Hilton, Jonathan Battishill et al.
Some of the best examples were published by Thomas Ravenscroft in 1609 & 1611, and Hilton in 1652
There's a small book of them still available from Stainer & Bell and a much larger collection available from the Oxford University Press for your enlightenment.
Best brace yourself though because neither contain any "trigger" warnings.
No one did 7 shots, some people had some drinks afterwards, everyone was back bright and early the next day to continue work.
DeleteTalk the landlady in the Castell if you want to know about the "alleged" drinking culture.
Non-conformist - thank you for disagreeing in a very measured way. I hear what you’re saying, despite my different position on musicians.
DeleteFactchecker - to be honest, although I find the whole idea of the ‘7 Shots’ utterly distasteful and unworthy of anyone who calls themselves a Christian to suggest on Good Friday, even in ill-judged jest, there is a more fundamental point here that is the most significant to me. Good Friday is a day of solemnity and abstinence - probably the single most austere day in the Church’s liturgical year. Yet it is alleged there were clergy - senior(ish) clergy at that - present drinking in a pub, identifiable as clergy, and engaging in public socialising that I can well imagine to have been loud and full of joking around, to say the least. Even if, like me, you are not called to be a hermit or live a fully ascetic way of life, as a priest Good Friday is absolutely not a day for partying. So whether or not 7 shots ever passed the lips of a cleric that day, their presence there was absolutely inappropriate and still may have constituted conduct unbecoming, had any interested party seen fit to make a formal complaint under the disciplinary rules. If the priest you describe as now more senior than they then were is who I think it is, that person’s unsuitability to be a Bishop in the Church of God is completely revealed in that choice, whatever gifts, skills or abilities to charm their way out of a hole, or throw former friends under the bus they may have. A serious character flaw has been revealed in that choice - one that in my view torpedoes any credibility they may try to claim as a senior Christian leader.
Im not sure why the DoM is being attacked here. Or his faith being brought into question. Ive only met this gentleman once and was fearful, because he knew someone who particularly didn't like me. However, his humility, openness, and lack of judging was nothing short of biblical. His deep faith came across clearly in the music he led on the occasion and we were truly in the awesome presence of God. If anyone, choral or congregant there was not a Christian, I dont doubt they would have had a powerful encounter with God. Is this not mission in its rawest and most authentic form?
DeleteI do not doubt Mr Cooper that the reports in the press have not been accurate, as I have been on the wrong end of that myself, even when I truly was to blame.
I did not totally approve of the previous archbishop, nor the one in Canterbury either. But I am deeply disturbed with this persistence in resigning every time things go wrong. There are no doubt hugely regretable decisions in this scandal, from appointments, to spending, to drunken behaviour. But are we not all under the transformative and redemptive grace of God? Are we not saying to the secular world that we must throw something out the moment it goes wrong?
I want to believe that whatever decisions were made, cheques signed, or drinks APPARENTLY drunk, that at the time the people involved meant no harm and probably thought they were doing the right thing. Now, they may have been wrong, but does that mean we hang them out to dry and enact judgement upon them when we are called to forgive and restore?
Mr Cooper and the choir along with many others are no doubtedly doing the very best they can for the kingdom of God with the blessings God has given them.
Can we do the same? Or do we stand with the accuser, Satan himself?
Lover-not-fighter
The mischievous part of me would laugh so hard if the electors offered Manon the See of Bangor. That is something the bench cannot control ultimately as long as electors assert their independence. One vote each whether you wear purple or whether you are a lay elector. Electing her would send a very strong message that manipulating senior appointments is not on. She is a very strong candidate too; has this appointment effectively ruled her out? Maybe she has done that herself, I don't know.
ReplyDeleteMore reasons why the recommendations of the visitation should have been respected and allowed the new bishop in first to appoint his or her team. Another own goal after a flurry of them in Bangor.
Whamab
You have confused me Whamab. Are you suggesting that Rev Canon Dr. Comic Manon James be further elevated to +Bangor or that Bangor/RB take 'time out' and return to the madness 'in the fulness of time'. Either way, the stupidity is the caveat that a Bishop should be Welsh speaking. This seriously, seriously, seriously debars many very excellent candidates from even considering Bangor or Wales. Most of our best jumped ship anyway over to England. So far as I know from the Old Testament reading, God doesn't speak or understand Welsh anyway; and any lines of communication to Him are the only ones that really matter.
ReplyDeleteWhat's the Welsh for 'Load of Bollox'?
65% of people in Gwynedd speak welsh. Therefore the Bishop of Bangor must be a fluent welsh speaker. That's not a caveat it's a necessity. Don't show yourself to be so culturally illiterate and theologically inane.
DeleteGuto
I would say it is an essential criteria to be a Welsh speaker in Bangor and St Davids. Yes it does, exclude those who can't but that is true all over the world with native languages and recruitment to chief executive roles. Forcing a default to solely English by the Bishop is not the way ahead in Gwynedd.
DeleteMy point was Manon would be on the shortlist for the See of Bangor: does her appointment as Dean exclude her? Not necessarily I'd argue. I think, all things being equal, a female candidate might get the nod and she is up there. I thought she was favourite for Assistant Bishop, but Andy liked appointing within his little clique.
Whamab
☝️☝️☝️☝️☝️☝️☝️☝️☝️
DeleteThere.
That's the Welsh for "a load of bollox" AC.
Right there, hole in one.
Also, what about Welsh people from say the valleys who can't speak Welsh. Are they not considered Welsh. Or is that ok if they are playing rugby?
ReplyDeleteI am Celtic. but don't understand a single word in any of the languages! But, I do live in Wales and often hear conversations in Welsh spoken to keep me out of the loop. Is this how the new +Bangor and staff can conceal what they are up to? What's Welsh for "Dismayed"?
ReplyDeleteWell to the Welsh-language ardents, there's one perfect candidate for either dean or even Bangor bishop that's been overlooked (perhaps because he quit the diocese and province because of Andrew John); the fluent Welsh-speaking and highly popular Venerable John Matthews and his ordained wife, now to be found in New Zealand. And a priest with an enviable track record in parish growth (congregant) numbers too ... with no choirs to top the bill.
ReplyDelete@ Guto and AC
DeleteFurther afield than New Zealand there's another source of overlooked ardent Welsh speakers which could enliven Bangor: Patagonians!!! Yeah, they speak Welsh but as Welsh spoken in North Wales is unintelligible to a South Walian, so too is the Welsh of Patagonia. The North American Mandan Indians also speak Welsh taught to them by Prince Madoc long before Christopher Columbus but are sensible enough not to have set up a C-in-W wigwam in their reserves.
Curiously enough during the Falklands War (South Atlantic) a couple of pathetic and frightened Argentinians surrendered themselves to a section of British army infantrymen and instead of rough handling, cuffing and strip-downs, they were treated with kindness by their Welsh Guards captors. Reason? They were jibbering away in Welsh!!!
But back to Bangor. For the first couple of years as Dean, Susan Jones could hardly string a sentence of Welsh together and nor was Bishop Crocket in any way competent. And the choir, at every opportunity, chant in Latin. So what's changed?
Bangor Cathedral and Welsh??? From my observation the number of Black African and Asian faithful at Sunday services far, far, far outnumbers the dwindling and pathetic number of Welsh speakers at the Cymun Cymraeg which can be counted in less than a dozen with the choir and clergy outnumbering them 3-1. Ought we therefore look to find a bishop who speaks Swahili or Hindi who can communicate with the congregational populace. I'm told that the finest Bishop Bangor ever had was a certain Rt Rev JC Jones plucked from the Christian Missionary Society (CMS) where he had been a humble priest in Uganda for years was more fluent in Afrikaans than Welsh. But that was probably in the days when Bishops electing other bishops, were each held in respect and of the Old School.
DeleteBishop J C Jones, a greatly loved Bishop of Bangor, who died aged 52 from overwork, grew up in the village of Llansaint, near Kidwelly, in a completely Welsh community. Welsh was his language; English was just a school subject until he went to Grammar School. He maintained his Welsh to the end. His enthronement in Bangor cathedral was entirely in Welsh, for the only time ever.
DeleteAfrikaans is spoken in South Africa. The native language in J C Jones’s part of Uganda was Luganda, in which he became totally fluent.
Cymro Alltud
It’s not true that if the next Bishop of Bangor is not Welsh speaking there will be no Welsh speaking Bishop in Wales. The admirable Bishop of St Davids is completely fluent in Welsh, his mother tongue.
DeleteBut that’s no reason not to appoint a Welsh speaker to Bangor as well, the diocese with the highest percentage of Welsh speakers.
Cymro Alltud
The Cathedral’s Welsh speaking congregation is certainly small and it’s surprising that the numbers did not increase once the choir became a part of the services. One would have expected that other Welsh speaking Anglicans in the Bangor vicinity would have appreciated being led in worship by such a quality choir, but alas not it seems.
ReplyDeleteHowever, neither the Cathedral is meant to operate for the cathedral’s congregation alone, nor the bishop meant to solely focussed on their cathedral. Both have the whole diocese as their field of operation. And since this diocese is the predominantly Welsh north west, having Welsh speakers as bishop and dean is surely highly desirable if not essential? Should the new bishop be a non Welsh speaker, then we would have no Welsh speaking bishop in the Province. That would be rather odd, would it not?
The new dean is clearly a Welsh speaker and is more than qualified in other aspects too. So a good choice. It is regrettable that the recruitment process was not paused until after the appointment of a new bishop but it is what it is now. Manon would have been a strong candidate for bishop too and unless she has ruled herself out, is certainly open to be elected. How about Dean Nigel Williams as a contender? A wealth of experience without doubt.
Resistance
@Resistance.
DeleteApologies to all for returning to this site. But to Resistance, you've got it all wrong. Former sub-Dean Sion ap Rhys did in fact try and boost the pathetically small and Anglican apathetic Welsh congregation base ... but in quite the wrong way. He and his DoM pushed out a zany idea that Welsh speaking congregants from neighbouring parishes and churches (in a sort of 15-20 miles radius of Bangor) should desert their local churches to boost pew-numbers at his Welsh sing-alongs. You can imagine how this went down with vicars and rectors in outlaying areas of the diocese already struggling to keep up numbers. He was told to Ffordd Offa. So no, Resistance, truth is that there is no appetite for it but if there where, then thought has to be given to the order of service. Welsh-speaking worshippers are more akin to the simplicity of the Methodist tradition, hymn-signing and thunderously good sermons than High Mass, silken vestments, pomp and Rome.
As for the rest of the Diocese and Mother Church .... humm, I doubt if there is any interest whatsoever apart from dismay at the shenanigans.
Resistance. The Bishop of St Davids is a first language Welsh speaker. William the Conqueror
DeleteI don't remember being involved in any conversation to invite people from other churches in the diocese. You must have been there Ad?
ReplyDeleteAlso, if we are always singing in Latin? why would be part of the plan to introduce welsh language choral music?
I do not remember being invited to do this either.
Delete