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Friday, 16 May 2014

Meetings to discuss Uniting Church in Wales

The Gathering                                                                                                                                                               Credit: The Church in Wales

From the Church in Wales:

Two special meetings will take place in the Diocese of St Asaph next week as the Anglican Church considers closer ties with other Christian denominations in Wales.

At the Governing Body meeting of the Church in Wales in April, there was a vote to continue with discussions of the proposals outlined in 2012 (pictured) for the future of the Covenanted Churches across Wales.  If approved, it could pave the way for one Uniting Church in Wales taking in people from Anglican, Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian and United Reformed traditions.

The meetings on Wednesday 21 May will gather together all the Christian denominations represented by the Covenanted Churches and allow everyone to discuss and respond to the plans for a Uniting Church in Wales.

A presentation will be made at each of the meetings by Sister Eluned Williams MBE, Chair of the Commission of the Covenanted Churches in Wales.

The Bishop of St Asaph, the Right Revd Dr Gregory K Cameron said:

“We have been challenged by the Gathering of Churches in Wales to seek for unity among Christians.

“These meetings will allow us to have an introduction to the proposals, and to give honest reactions.  Jesus requires his followers to be one family: it’s time to take that command seriously.”

The meetings will both take place on Wednesday 21 May.  The first is at the Council Chambers, Connah’s Quay at 2pm before a second at the Acton Community and Resources Centre, Wrexham at 7pm.


  1. Sounds like a replaying of MUC from the 1980s!

  2. This comment has been removed by the author.

  3. "Jesus requires his followers to be one family: it's time to take that command seriously" says the Bishop of St Asaph. Really ??
    Then why is the Church in Wales making every effort to distance itself from the One Holy Catholic Church, to which it says it belongs?
    The Gathering is striving to drown the Church in Wales in the sea of non- conformity, and to water down the Faith of the traditional Church and to effectively dismiss ,if not deny, our belief and understanding of the Apostolic succession.
    I don't suppose there is an open invitation to 'the Gathering' : just a gathering of selected folk who are of the mind of Sister Eluned Williams and of Dr Barry Morgan.
    Christ's Church is not divided ,but the situation is that some have decided to leave, and are then looking behind themselves to accuse the consistent,undeviating and proper church of causing division!

    1. Simple Soul, and I quote, 'The Gathering is striving to drown the Church in Wales in the sea of non-conformity'. Whilst I sympathise with you and Ancient Briton, you must remember there is no 'sea of non-conformity in Wales. It's as dead to it's own principles as the Church in Wales is to the One Holy Catholic Church.

      Now, why not look at the bright side. Since the great Svengali . namely, ' His Darkness' has outplayed everyone and is now the way the truth and the life for the Rev Edwards of Cytun and fellow devotees mesmerised by voice tonality and issues of human sexuality, it follows that non-conformity will be 'swallowed up' in the United Gedi Church in Wales. It's proposals, ( enlarge the photo again) are as thin as Cytun's Directors own scalp..

  4. Apart from the apparent ' dismissing and denying ' of the Apostolic Succession , I have also previously read that at the Gathering meetings all the participants "share bread and wine together"!
    The 'sharing' is not called a Eucharist ,so all change there too : the Eucharist dismissed .
    I wonder who wrote the order of service for the 'sharing'.? ! !

  5. I thought the implication of the photograph was of a sharing of bread and wine Simple soul. Having enlarged it, not only is the bread and wine more apparent but who do we see taking an unaccustomed back seat but the Archbishop of Wales unless I am very much mistaken!

    Once again ++Barry has brought a subject to GB having already made his decision and acted accordingly as with the blessing of the gay union of one of his clergy according to reports elsewhere.

    Bishop Gregory said in his statement: “We have been challenged by the Gathering of Churches in Wales to seek for unity among Christians. These meetings will allow us to have an introduction to the proposals, and to give honest reactions. Jesus requires his followers to be one family: it’s time to take that command seriously.”

    Presumably +Gregory means the minority of Christians who have departed from the Apostolic faith. If he wants to take Jesus' command seriously he should think again in the context of the whole Church of Christ and tell ++ Barry what to do with his his policies which are destroying true Anglicanism in Wales .

    1. There is another photograph here
      showing the act of "Ecumenical Communion at The Gathering 2012".
      "Ecumenism and canon law" can be found here

  6. Joseph Golightly17 May 2014 at 15:31

    The Anglican Communion shows its true colours by going full speed ahead with other Protestants. It reminds what those FiF types really believe - 'ABC parishes' Anything But Catholic. Give up pretending that it will be OK - Athanasius didn't just accept what was happening - he fought and that's a reason that the Catholic Church can exist today

    1. Out of the flames of "Protestant" confusion into the fires of unreformed Rome, shrivelling at an even greater rate than the Church in Wales? Not an option. Watch this space for news of a better way.

  7. Joseph Golightly18 May 2014 at 12:21

    Insider, statistics please to justify your assertion

    1. It hardly needs statistics - one has only to see the emptying churches which were once full to overflowing on Sundays. But since you ask for them, I suggest you take a look at:

      " •Weekly mass attendance fell between 30.7% between 1993 and 2010, as compared to corresponding falls of 10.9% in the Catholic population and 9.4% in the number of priests over the same period.
      •In the 50 years between 1912 and 1962, the Catholic Population more than doubled in size. It continued to rise up to 1993, when it peaked at 4.53 million.
      •Over the same 50 year period, the number of priests also nearly doubled in size, peaking at 7,887 in 1965. The number of priests has fallen each year since 2002. The 2011 total of 5,264 represents the lowest total since 1937."

      More recent figures are hard to obtain. I wonder why they are so reluctant to publish them?

  8. The Uk census in enquiring about religion asks only if you are Christian or other (named) or of no religion. There are no reliable figures 'Insider' relating to Protestant, or Anglican, versus Catholic allegiance.
    With regard to the referral to "unreformed Rome", have you never heard of the Second Vatican Council when marked changes occurred ?
    However the important point is there were no changes of doctrine ,as seems to happen willy-nilly these days in the Church in Wales!

    1. Simple Soul, while the 2nd Vatican council made some changes in the direction of reform, such as a vernacular liturgy and a service stripped of some of its sacerdotalism, it retains the same doctrines which caused the Reformers to leave it in the 16th century. "Reformed" means much more than abandoning lace and birettas - it means believing in the sufficiency of the scriptures for salvation, rather than in an institution which grew out of a pagan empire in Rome, whose leader still lays claim to the title "Pontifex Maximus" bestowed on the pagan emperors on account of their role in the official cults of the city.

      Here's a useful summary:

  9. Joseph Golightly19 May 2014 at 09:19

    Insider, here are the latest statistics
    Strange how the Church is growing despite (or is it because) of the Protestant Reformers. I think you will find that it was Our Lord who made St Peter the Rock on which the Church was to be built - but Protestants do seem to have a problem with what Our Lord said.

    1. Elsewhere in the world, perhaps - but not in Wales.

    2. And no - there are no Popes in the New Testament. Jesus did not say “upon you, Peter” or “upon your successors,” but “upon this rock” - upon the divine revelation and profession of faith in Christ made by Peter in Mt.16.18. The entire Gospel is about faith, not about belonging to an institution - or a pope.

  10. Joseph Golightly19 May 2014 at 17:00

    Strange thing Insider is that there are vastly more people whose faith tells them otherwise. Catholics just belong to the Church founded by Our Lord. Unfortunately the CIW cannot be considered to be part of the One Holy Catholic Church. No problem with that but don't keep on attacking what you obviously hate and detest

    1. I see you have no theological arguments to bring to bear. Never mind the fact that the Church was formally divided by the Great Schism of 1054, when the Bishop of Rome foolishly "excommunicated" the Church in the East. Never mind the fact that it was further divided at the Reformation, when many Christians could no longer live with the many false doctrines maintained by Rome as dogma. Rome has no right to call itself the "Catholic" church since it patently is not Catholic or Universal.

      It may retain the greatest number of adherents, but it also retains many of the false doctrines, and many of the worst abuses of power. Because of its failure to address the criminality of many of its clergy, who have preyed upon children, it is now a broken reed in the West, its churches emptying fast, its seminaries closing, its clergy disappearing into retirement homes or the grave.

      By contrast there is a Universal Church to which all faithful Christians belong, including faithful members of the Church in Wales. They will not advance their salvation by joining the unreformed Church of Rome instead.

      Perhaps the new pope will have the courage to call a general council of the Church, and get around to putting its affairs in order. If he does so it will greatly benefit the whole of the Church - the one true universal church, of which Rome ought to be a part - when it has reformed itself.

  11. Insider :
    It is probably not wise to seek to understand the Anglican Church in England or Wales ,or indeed the wider One Holy Catholic Church,by reference to an American Calvinistic " pedia" viz .
    The Americans possess a different understanding of history - theological or social, for example ,they teach a very different understanding of the Boston Tea Party!

    You say,"The sufficiency of the scriptures for salvation ".Of course we rely on scripture and out of scripture arises the practice of our faith and the Sacraments are established in scripture. The sacraments are of primary importance in our lives and the way in which we receive God's grace and Deo volente ,find our salvation.

    1. Sadly, simple soul, you demonstrate very little understanding of what it actually is to be an Anglican church. Article VI of the XXXIX Articles - very much older than the USA itself - states:

      HOLY Scripture containeth all things necessary to salvation: so that whatsoever is not read therein, nor may be proved thereby, is not to be required of any man, that it should be believed as an article of the Faith, or be thought requisite or necessary to salvation .

      Some of the best theologians are American, and many Americans are reformed Christians who share the same understanding of the Christian faith as that which is to be found in the Articles of Religion. As an Anglican you are a member of a Church which proudly declared itself to be part of the Reformation, as defined in the Articles of 1562.

    2. Tudor propaganda and balderdash!

  12. Insider - I have every understanding of what it actually is to be an Anglican and far from being proud ,I am ashamed of how the hierarchy displays a dismissive attitude towards the essential element of our faith which is the Apostolic succession,let alone the subordination of the Eucharist in this altruistic ,yet destructive, setup called The Gathering.
    Balderdash ! Thank you Merv !

  13. Simple Soul, it is the very Romanised form of hierarchy which is the cause of your problems. If the Church in Wales were to rid itself of those who hold and abuse power like secular politicians, and hold fast instead to its Christian confession, there would be no crisis, no watering down of the faith, only a true dependence upon God Himself and the kind of church which He wishes it to be - instead the Church in Wales, like so much of the Anglican Communion, has chosen to imitate the shadow of sacerdotalist Rome. Seven bishops have the power to destroy the Church in Wales - just seven of its members. Why do you allow this to happen?

  14. It is interesting that you think the Bench of Bishops has power within the Church in Wales!
    The truth is that these seven are absolutely controlled by one ,and only one person, who in acting as chairman, alters our understanding the Sacraments , and varies doctrine of our Church through the puppets he has put in place in order to give the impression of a collegiate and democratic organisation of our church.
    The chairman of the Bench is now embarking upon the dissolution of the Church in Wales in his plan to form the Church Uniting in Wales. There will be no true bishops anymore -just members of 'the board' and it is about time that the 'shareholders' were awakened!

  15. Simple Soul, you almost said it, but I will say it explicitly - that Barry behaves more like a pope than an Anglican bishop. This is in itself radically unAnglican, and whatever else happens by way of "ecumenism", it needs as a high priority to be named and brought to an end.

  16. It is no doubt true that Archbishop Barry is more dictatorial than the Pope!

    However, any organisation needs leadership ,doesn't it, otherwise one ends up with anarchy or dictatorship : I suppose there are signs of a bit of both in the C in W.

    Having said that, the Pope has teams upon teams of advisors .You may say that ++ Barry takes his decisions following democratic votes taken in the Governing Body. But the GB has been pruned and 'doctored' and in the core of those voting on serious matters are persons who have had no theological training ( or perhaps no training in anything else). This means that the GB are approving changes which may fundamentally change the doctrine and faith of the church. Apart from the matter of members of the GB understanding theology ,it is true to say that the Archbishop has a very clever and charming way of getting the answer he wants.

    So I now ponder which line of authority is safer ?
    Upon whose teaching should I rely? No church on earth is perfect ,but which authority genuinely strives to find the way of Jesus? and whom can I trust to guide me in the Christian Faith.

  17. Simple Soul, you don't need a pope, or even a Barry. Just rely on the Scriptures, and on the faith as the Church in Wales has received it - especially the Prayer Book, the Articles of Religion, and the Ordinal. Your salvation does not depend on belonging to any particular ecclesiastical tribe - it depends on your faith in Jesus Christ, which no pope or Barry can take away from you. If the Church in Wales ceases to exist then get together with other faithful Christians and start again. Help is on its way.