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| The Archbishop of Wales addressing Governing Body, September 2023 Source: Church Times/Church in Wales |
One of the highlights of the Governing Body of the Church in Wales (CinW) used to be the Membership and Finance Report but no more.
The Annual report and Accounts 2023 presented by the Representative Body prepared for September 2024 meeting of the Governing Body summarises the position as follows (page 9):
"3. Accelerated decline in church attendance
The continuation of declining attendance
and an increasing age profile would result
in declining financial income for dioceses:
this would lead to an inability to present
established patterns of ministry to the
whole of Wales. The Representative Body
endeavours to maintain the highest financial
support to dioceses possible. Also, a
renewed focus on mission and evangelism,
including additional financial resources being
made available, aims to stimulate church
growth. A membership app is being rolled out
to assist with monitoring church attendance
statistics."
'Declining attendance' puts it mildly. British Religion in Numbers (BRIN) showed that the average Sunday attendance (over 18) in 2004 was 41,771. By 2009 attendance had dropped to 36,836.
Ten years on, CinW adult Sunday attendance (over 18) was given in their Membership and Finance Report as 30,424 in 2014. A year later it was 29,019. [See Sept 2016 entry.]
I have been unable to find any reference to current attendance figures for some time which suggests that the Church in Wales has something to hide.
Access to the 'membership app' referred to in the RB Report is by invitation, thus obscuring the data from inquisitive eyes. I wonder why?
It's probably below 15k now. +Andy is obsessed with wokery and climate change. Any sensible Bishop should be fully focussed on evangelism. That's hard when you no longer understand what the Gospel is. He will be the last Archbishop of Wales.
ReplyDeleteDim Diolch
How astonishing, I thought burning Bibles and leaping onto the feminist and secular bandwagon was supposed to fill the pews? That it hasn't is of no surprise to anyone who is an actual Christian, as opposed to those who masquerade as such. All it has done is convince more and more that there is little point attending such a meaningless and out of touch social club.
ReplyDeleteBut, to quote regular delusionists, "they know better".
Or rather, to misquote.
DeleteJanice.
Quite right, Veritas. How a church focused on being woke and green can even think that evangelism and mission would stimulate membership growth is beyond me.
DeleteThe 21st century answer to every problem.
ReplyDeleteA new App.
The cult in Wales has become another farce. The sooner it collapses the happier I shall be.
While I do not question your statistics, you are being a little disingenuous in claiming the paragraph you quote as a statement of what is happening. It's in fact one of four potential risks to the finances of the CinW, as required for Charity reporting. Hence the use of the phrase "The continuation of declining attendance and an increasing age profile WOULD result in declining financial income for dioceses". Sadly this scenario is indeed widespread across virtually all denominations - which one could attribute to a number of factors.
ReplyDelete@ Baptist Trainfan
DeleteThat's exactly it Trainfan. '... which one could attribute to a number of factors'. But as with the strategic failure to publish the figures neither too does the CinW inform what these 'factors' are. You hint at them, I suspect them and the big wigs certainly know them. But will they 'fess up. Nah of course not. That would be admission that they must urgently admit their wrong direction and sort it out. Bit like trains really. Before you hit the buffers, pull into a siding, change the points, reverse a bit ... then return to the right track. Problem is that Andrew John was probably never given a Hornby train set to play with as a kid. Shame really.
True of course (and I like model trains). I think one major factor, outside the churches' control, is the general secularisation of society, which is impacting most Christian denominations and will, I think, impact both Muslims and "ethnic" Christian churches in the next 10-20 years (albeit with some turning to fundamentalistic views). The many abuse scandals over recent years have led people to deeply mistrust our faith, even denominations which have been pretty free of such problems. I also think that the churches - especially the CofE (and I do mean the CofE) - need to stop looking inwards at their own problems and start looking outwards at society. Oh yes: I don't personally think that the much vaunted "Resource Church" model delivers the goods as promised - others may disagree!
DeleteYours viz 'secularisation of society' is agreed BT but doesn't quite gel with observations of a number of 5th and 6th Former teachers who have noticed those year-class students' increasing search for 'answers' outside their general sources; these including two pre-generations of parents and grandparents who may never have stepped into a Church or seen purpose in faith. The problem here is that state schools are too restricted in their curricula (and school governor oversights) to explore or deliver answers and the church (all denominations) slow to realise a need to reach out to the communications streams of 16-20 year olds. Secularism is not therefore - in my opinion - "outside the churches' control". Its a parasite which can be controlled - but it takes a whole new breed to clergy and a dynamic new approach to address the issue. There's a new thirst out there ... but not the tap to quench it.
DeleteThat's an interesting and helpful comment, but I don't think it actually goes far enough! Yes to a new breed of clergy and yes to a dynamic new approach - but how does this sit with traditional approaches to church itself? We need to recognise how utterly alien and weird much of what we do is to young people; we also need to recognise that church traditions evolve. I know that some folk can't think of worship without "Cranmer's matchless prose" and all that goes with it, but that developed within a time and context very different from our own (and, of course, is very different to the worship described in the New Testament). I'm not saying that we need the bells-and-whistles "Hillsong" style of modern worship (but then I'm not a young person!); I suspect that the long-term future of our faith in Britain possibly lies in more informal "communities of faith" akin to the early Methodist "class meetings". I think it's pretty clear that "church as we know it" probably doesn't have much of a long-term future. What will be important are honesty, openness and authenticity.
Delete@Baptist Trainfan It seems to me that it is not the old liturgy that is to blame. Just watch a few Orthodox services on YouTube, and you see lots of young people attending. Their liturgy dates from about 400 AD and has never changed. What is important is the content of the faith and the adherence to Bible and Traditions, which in Anglicanism has sadly eroded. Holiness, obedience, and the Presence of God are much more important than any 'dynamic new approach'.
DeleteI have heard that Church decline is often linear - as churches tend to decline due to ageing/death.
ReplyDeleteTherefore would expect a minimum 1000 person attendance decline since 2014.
I would estimate ~20000 attendance currently - but may be lower than that.
Jaded Pewsitter
If the trend 📉 at Llandaff Cathedral was any meaningful means of judging, reckon I the numbers have already dipped below ten thousand.
DeleteAs soon as the actual numbers started appearing on Ancient Briton's blog, the Capon and Mr Toad stopped publishing communicant numbers in the Parish Magazine (from December 2015 if memory serves).
Rather like Doofus, their false claims of growth couldn't stand up to scrutiny and their own published stats.
The other means of measuring the decline of the cult is the numbers on the electoral rolls but that's concealed too.
Surely not the Capon who is the new Archdeacon of Montgomery?
DeleteDim Diolch
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
DeleteLook busy. Jesus is coming. The Enforcer.
ReplyDeleteAnd all God's people said "AMEN".
ReplyDelete- The Enforcer.
The Church in Wales is due a letter from St Paul!
ReplyDeleteSir Omicron Pi.
The cult is a lost cause and any advice from St. Paul, or even Christ himself, would fall on deaf ears.
Delete@ Lux et Veritas I'm afraid you are completely right.
DeleteI'm perplexed. Over many, many decades involvement in various charity and charity trust fundraising programmes I don't think I've come across such a bland announcement as that issued by the Diocese of Llandaff to its 'web' congregants.
ReplyDeleteThe Archbishop of Wales's Fund for Children is, without explanation, closed and is no longer receiving donations. How very odd. This was one charity - with a £1m spend towards children projects - that Andrew John might have been proud of.
Now it seems potential donors who generally gift as part of Christingle collections are being told: 'if you still want to donate, then donate to some other local charity' but not the Archbishop's fund !!!! How very odd.
Charities do of course close without raising eyebrows (The Major Tom Moore NHS charity disgracefully run by his daughter-in-law Hannah being an exception). And so too the demise of this 'good cause' would probably have gone unnoticed except that it is part of a CinW stable of financial mismanagement and scandal that simply begs answer to the question? Why? What's gone wrong this time? Was this one of the CinW trusts/funds that Archdeacon Andrew Jones resigned from before quitting the church completely? Should we smell a rat? I hope not - not again.
Apologies all. Error. Tom Moore NHS charity run - or mismanaged - by his daughter Hannah, not his daughter-in-law as mistakenly written).
DeleteI have no answers, but the financial history is interesting: https://tinyurl.com/49k4ebzd
DeleteI'm pretty certain you'll find Tom Moore was a Captain, not a major.
DeleteI also believe his old Regiment appointed him as an Honorary Colonel after his tremendous fund raising efforts but before he died.
Of one thing you can be almost certain, the Bishops will not have closed their unaudited discretionary spending accounts.
DeleteQuite correct Enoch. Capt. he was. It was his daughter, Hannah, who was the Major ... Major Disaster.
DeleteAnd today's Presidential Address was all about river pollution. It's time the useless bunch, sorry, bench is flushed.
ReplyDeleteSir Omicron Pi.
Do you honestly think the sewers would manage?
DeleteI predict a blockage the size of a London farberg.
++Andy is vying for civic honours for his promotion of Welsh environmental concerns. He sees this as his route to peerage or a knighthood. He should care about the state of the church more than the rivers which do need the care of the State through legislation.
ReplyDeleteFarmers increasingly feel ++Andy is throwing them under the bus with this implicit criticism of them through phosphorus in the Rivers Wye and Severn. Another kick in the teeth for mid-Wales, the forgotten wasteland of Wales from both civic and spiritual institutions.
++Andy should do some evangelism and set an example for his flock. He really is clueless - mission, mission, mission must be the priority. Let environmental charities champion their cause. Grow the church, disciple new believers and they will be a force for good regarding the environment. A tiny, dying church has no influence at all. Just get a grip, it's probably too late already for C-i-W.
DIM DIOLCH
The chocolate teapot is more effluent than influence.
DeleteBewildered
Who can forget the then bishop Penberthy`s apology about how the church had treated the alphabet people at the morning Sunday service at the National Eisteddfod in Anglesey in 2017. The service was being broadcasted through television and radio but not once did she mention sin, repentance and God`s mercy through the Grace of Jesus Christ. Several ministers, including ++Andy, could be seen sitting in the audience smiling whilst she showed her dereliction to her duty to proclaim the Gospel of Christ but God was not asleep and we all know what has happened to her. Also that afternoon the skies poured out so much rain that the car park could not be used for the whole week of the Eisteddfod and people had to be bused in from Mona. It was as if God was sending them a reminder. I pray for cleansing throughout the church.
DeleteYou’re having a laugh! What an absolutely homophobic and vile posting.
DeleteRufus
What's your problem Doofus, can't bear an act of God raining on your Pride parade?
DeleteI'd forgotten all about DodoJo ME, lord knows she hasn't been missed one bit. Obscurity suits her.
DeleteBewildered
Doofus? What’s that insult about?
DeleteRufus.
Such a flabby and weak Church, effectively leaderless, without conviction, divorced from its past and with no vision. Exactly the compromised Church which has allowed alphabet people like Rufus to go unchecked and wreak havoc in what should be a significant city centre Church.
DeleteLW
And yet only this week three new people have joined the church because they have detected the love of Christ at work in our church, and dare I say, my witness to Christ’s inclusivity. I’ll no doubt get criticised on this blog for audaciously claiming such growth. I love Christ. I love that he identified with the outcast.
DeleteRufus - Doofus for Christ.
Well done you, but if you love Christ as you claim then you should love your fellow man/woman, therefore, I hope that you have shared our Lord`s condition for receiving His salvation with them which is to repent from sin.
DeleteWhy do you think that today`s church is so afraid of mentioning this ? If we do not accept Jesus` teaching on repentance from sin then we have no need for Him and we allow the devil to win, this is the antichrist !
Have we allowed the antichrist to rule the church ?
To the churches -
Revelation 2:5
5` Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place`.
We look forward to seeing your claims reflected in the Communicant numbers you refuse to publish.
DeleteFear not. All will be well Jesus is coming.
ReplyDelete- The Enforcer
Notice how the report is concerned with the affect the decline will have on the finances of the CinW and how that will affect the ministry offered. In other words their jobs. There is no concern for people's souls, no concern for people sitting in darkness not coming to the light. The only use for the laity is to pay their salaries and do the jobs they don't want to do.
ReplyDeletePrime reason why I left and have never looked back. Any CinW cleric with half a conscience ought to do the same.