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| Bishops of St Davids, Bangor, Swansea & Brecon (Archbishop), Monmouth, St Asaph and Llandaff. Source:Twitter |
The bishop of Bangor, Andy John, must have thought himself most fortunate when, after 2,000 years of tradition and scholarship, it fell to him to find Biblical support for church gay marriages. A revelation that eluded doctors of the Church and biblical scholars for generations before him.
Of course the bishop could be mistaken but that would not occur to the episcopal pygmies who currently constitute the bench of bishops in the Church in Wales. For them the bishop of Bangor has provided evidence that the Church should conform to the world as they pursue their policy that 'It is pastorally unsustainable for the Church to make no formal provision for those in same-gender relationships'.
Why is there so much emphasis on same sex relationships in the Church in Wales? The bishops believe that the Church is out of step with society so the Church must change to conform with society. The crumbling edifice reveals the lie.
If the bishops taught the faith as they should, the Church would not be seen as irrelevant.
The bishop of Bangor writes:
Those who experience same sex attraction or orientation will describe how, in a committed and loving relationship, they find not only love but grace and peace growing in their shared life with their partner. They experience the very fruit of the Spirit identified by St Paul as a mark of God’s presence and blessing (Gal 5:22-23). Jesus himself provided a kind of litmus test: it is ‘fruitfulness’ which reveals the authenticity (or not) of any claim to communion with God and grace (Matt 5:16-17). If the fruit of a relationship is growth in godly character, in what sense can such a relationship could be considered ‘against the will of God’?
Those who experience same sex attraction or orientation will describe how, in a committed and loving relationship, they find not only love but grace and peace growing in their shared life with their partner. They experience the very fruit of the Spirit identified by St Paul as a mark of God’s presence and blessing (Gal 5:22-23). Jesus himself provided a kind of litmus test: it is ‘fruitfulness’ which reveals the authenticity (or not) of any claim to communion with God and grace (Matt 5:16-17). If the fruit of a relationship is growth in godly character, in what sense can such a relationship could be considered ‘against the will of God’?
From Gal 5:22-23: "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law." St Paul continues: "Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other."
In the preceding verses Paul writes: "You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh....So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
"The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God."
Setting the tone of things to come in the Diocese of Monmouth following the appointment of the third woman bishop in the Church in Wales, the diocese has re-tweeted a Pride Cymru recruitment poster advertising a Volunteer Recruitment Day to be held on Saturday 25th January, the same day as that set apart for the consecration of Cherry Vann as the 11th bishop of Monmouth.
Such advertising goes way beyond sympathy for any perceived errors in the past. It is using the Church to further a Pride Cymru recruitment campaign, demonstrating the growing confidence of LGBT campaigners in the Church in Wales as they look forward to their next celebration in the so-called 'Faith' tent.
No doubt the new bishop of Monmouth and her fellow women bishops, LGBT campaigners Joanna Penberthy and June Osborne, see this as the road to salvation. It is not. It is the reverse.
Setting the tone of things to come in the Diocese of Monmouth following the appointment of the third woman bishop in the Church in Wales, the diocese has re-tweeted a Pride Cymru recruitment poster advertising a Volunteer Recruitment Day to be held on Saturday 25th January, the same day as that set apart for the consecration of Cherry Vann as the 11th bishop of Monmouth.
Such advertising goes way beyond sympathy for any perceived errors in the past. It is using the Church to further a Pride Cymru recruitment campaign, demonstrating the growing confidence of LGBT campaigners in the Church in Wales as they look forward to their next celebration in the so-called 'Faith' tent.
No doubt the new bishop of Monmouth and her fellow women bishops, LGBT campaigners Joanna Penberthy and June Osborne, see this as the road to salvation. It is not. It is the reverse.
As chief shepherds, bishops should be leading their flocks to Christ not walking away from Him, thus putting the souls of the faithful in peril. By doing so they clearly demonstrate that they are not fit for purpose.
Postscript [21.01.2020]
Following the appointment of Cherry Vann as bishop-elect of Monmouth, the Church in Wales press office and the Diocese of Monmouth declined to comment on whether the cohabiting bishop-elect was in a partnered same-sex relationship.
There has been no such reticence following the meeting of the Sacred Synod. From a Provincial News update on the bishop's forthcoming consecration: "Bishop Vann lives with her civil partner Wendy and their two dogs, Macallan and Sadie", a point casually reported by BBC News as though it were a regular occurrence rather than a departure from established Church policy.
The bishops of the Church in Wales are clearly determined to create a sense of normality around same sex relationships despite the fact that their proposals were rejected in a consultation exercise and at Governing Body.
All of these female clerics seem to be indoctrinated by the same literature. Yes, they do, they do! There must, surely, be an independent mind among them - somewhere.
ReplyDeleteRob
Indoctrination is all very well but with those "men" on the bench there's no chance of any impregnation occurring.
DeleteI never thought I'd see the day but standards have plunged even further since the Carl Cooper and randy Mandy story hit the fan.
No doubt, the Bishop's letter is the first step to twisting the arms of the next meeting of the governing body but selective quotation, designed to suit the Bishop's purpose simply will not do. Everyone should read Dr. Martin Davie's response to the Bishop's letter (click on "mistaken" in the above text) in order to see the weaknesses and failure of the Bishop's claims. Please GB make sure you read this before your next meeting so that you do not fall for the erroneous claims made by Andy and his fellow bench sitters.
ReplyDeleteNemesis
Martin Davie writes a thoughtful and well-considered response to Bishop John. He agrees with the Bishop's assertion that many people who experience same-sex physical attraction have seen the Church as 'a hostile place', and I think he's right to do so: the Church historically - at least the Latin and the Protestant Reformed traditions - has often seemed to make 'sex' and 'sin' practically synonymous, which is an absurd distortion of the original Gospel. But Dr Davie is, I believe, absolutely right to assert that 'the proper way to address this is not to change the Church’s teaching'.
DeleteSt Augustine of Hippo - who, at least to judge from his 'Confessions'! - ought to know - spoke of the Church as 'a school for sinners'. The answer to this issue should surely be to start from there, in the context of a God who, as generations of Anglicans were once regularly reminded, 'desireth not the death of a sinner, but rather that he might turn from his wickedness and live'. Sexual sin is undoubtedly real, but it's essentially no more intrinsically sinful than other types of sin.
The response to same sex attraction certainly needs to be pastoral, but a pastoral response doesn't have to mean - indeed can't mean - simply swinging the Church into line with what the contemporary mores of the society in which the local church finds itself. To do so is to divest both the Church and the gospel itself of all point.
" has often seemed to make 'sex' and 'sin' practically synonymous ", whilst the LGB lobby seem to make sex and love synonymous e.g. on the passing of the gay-marriage act " hurray - now we can love who we want ". I feel sorry for folk who confuse sex and love - they clearly have never experienced love, other than in the form of affection from another during sex.
Delete@ John Ellis - "Sexual sin is undoubtedly real, but it's essentially no more intrinsically sinful than other types of sin." The reality, John, is sin is sin. God doesn't have a table of gravity for sin. The Greek word "amartia" (sin) comes from archery and it means to miss the target. Jesus called his church to perfection - Be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect - so it is not surprising that we are never going to attain the gold standard. However, that doesn't mean that we give up trying.
DeleteWhat made the early Church attractive to a pagan world was that it had moral standards, and it didn't flinch from upholding those standards. Even in the pages of the New Testament, we read of outright condemnation for those who thought that a lesser standard was OK.
Unfortunately, today's Anglican Church leadership are driven by funding a failing institution, and if that means having no moral standards and adopting an "anything goes" standard then that's OK. I am quickly coming to the conclusion that the Apostles would not recognize the Church today as Christian. If they appeared at this point in time, those who claim to stand in the apostolic ministry would be quickly turfed out of office.
Seymour
@ Evangelical Ed:
DeleteYou have a point. But I've encountered - and maybe you have too - some same-sex couples who, at least to an outsider's eye, do seem to have a genuine love for one another and not merely a 'carnal lust and appetite'! But, I accept, by no means all.
But that wasn't really my point; I was thinking rather of the heavy hand with which the Church has routinely dealt with sexual sin and the light touch with which it has often responded to evident instances of 'pride, vain-glory, and hypocrisy ... envy, hatred, and malice, and all uncharitableness'.
I recall an elderly woman once telling me 'I don't commit any sin, because I don't have sex with anyone'. And a priest whom I knew years ago, slightly misquoting Psalm 55 in the context of of an eminently respectable woman in his congregation: 'The words of her mouth were softer than butter, having war in her heart : her words were smoother than oil, and yet be they very swords'. Or, as Alexander Pope more pithily put it, 'at ev'ry word, a reputation dies'.
Historically there's been a certain imbalance in the Church's reaction to the one when compared to the other!
@ Seymour:
I agree with everything you've said.
Forget all this lgbtqabcfghuyt stuff. Today I was informed that Our Lady of Llandaff,on Saturday past, officiated at the THIRD marriage of one of her serving priests, locally referred to as R.. The Knob.
ReplyDeleteIt doesn't matter how many episcopal hands were laid on you and it doesn't matter a jot the pedigree of their lineage, if you willfully fail to teach the apostles' doctrine you are NOT in the apostolic succession.
ReplyDeleteMany bishops in antiquity who were canonically consecrated fell foul of the provisions of the ecumenical councils and were declared heterodox. Like AB said, to think that you've 'discovered' new teaching that eluded the great doctors and theologians of the church for nigh on two millennia is sheer hubris.
Ironic, isn't it, that the whole original purpose and meaning of apostolic succession wasn't some quasi-mystical transference of supernatural grace, but rather to safeguard the integrity of the Church and of the apostles' doctrine.
Delete'Our bishop is consecrated by a bishop or a group of bishops who in their turn were consecrated by bishops before them whose 'ecclesiastical pedigree' can be traced back to the apostles themselves - therefore we can be as sure as possible that the gospel which they proclaim and the teaching that they give is authentically in the apostolic tradition'.
Where's that gone to?!
PP. Their are many arguments in regards da to the apostolic succession, they is a view that at the time of the reformation the line was broken in the break with the papal line. We can read about this view widely in theological texts. But not a view for a Conservative church, unfortunately we live in a toxic world in which Liberal, not liberation theology holds sway. Many Nonconformist Churches have accepted same sex, and women ministers. They don't subscribe to apostolic succession.
ReplyDeleteThere is also the view that ordination is through the laying on of hands, the empowering of the Holy Spirit, setting apart the "person" for Ministry in the church.Whatever our personal views, the situation does cause division.
I am not seeking any arguments just putting thoughts out there.
There has today appeared an article on the BBC annoucing the consecration details worth a read, here is the link:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-wales-51191949
Sadly, @PP and Ancient Briton's postscript, the Church in Wales boasts about that of which the Gentiles would be ashamed and blush!
ReplyDeleteSeymour
PP. Too right @Seymour. If the information is in the media, its going to cause some kick back at sometime in the near future.
DeleteA further irony, on which I've previously commented on these threads, is that as late as the 1980s indications of sexual 'irregularity' a lot less significant than those currently countenanced - even when the 'irregularity' was the doing of the priest's wife rather than his own - could well and sometimes did lead to a priest being eased out of his benefice and out of the Province.
DeleteHow things have changed in little more than three decades.
Presumably the Bishop of Monmouth considers herself to be 'living in sin' if she is not 'married' to her partner. But then the CinW doesn't have gay marriage, so what exactly is her position?
ReplyDeleteLW
PP. @LW according to the BBC and CiW reports the give status is Civil Partnership.
DeleteWe know that this is accepted for some dioceses in England and all of Wales for Clergy.
"We know that this is accepted for ... all of Wales for Clergy". Interesting - I hadn't realised that.
DeleteGiven today's C of E statement on same sex relationships, one wonders how The Bishop Elect and Confirmed, of Monmouth and her female partner will react and, indeed, how the charlatans of the Welsh bunch of bishops will react.?
ReplyDeleteFrom today's Church Times:
Delete"On Saturday, the Ven. Cherry Vann, who is in a civil partnership, will be consecrated as the Bishop of Monmouth. The Governing Body of the Church in Wales has agreed that it is “pastorally unsustainable for the Church to make no formal provision for those in same-gender relationships” (News, 21 September 2018).
https://www.churchtimes.co.uk/articles/2020/24-january/news/uk/no-blessing-for-straight-civil-partnerships-say-bishops
Sickening.
Delete