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| Right Revd Cherry Vann, Bishop of Monmouth and OTN Patron Source: OTN |
BBC News Wales has announced that the 15th Archbishop of Wales is to be the bishop of Monmouth, Cherry Vann.
As predicted, two more 'firsts' for the Church in Wales.
As predicted, two more 'firsts' for the Church in Wales.
Postscripts
30.07.2025
New Archbishop of Church of Wales living in blatant defiance of Christian teaching Christian Concern
01.08.2025
02.08.2025
Archbishop of Wales Election Shatters the Communion The Most Reverend Dr. Laurent Mbanda
Chairman, Gafcon Primates Council
18.08.2025
Excellent news!!
ReplyDeleteAllow me the honour of being the first to proclaim just how utterly magnificent and heartening this news is! A steady, capable hand, indeed. +Cherry has been nothing short of a lighthouse, guiding Monmouth away from the precipice of the crisis she inherited. May she shine the same radiant light upon the Church in Wales. Truly, by her fruits, we have known her.
ReplyDeleteElector
I echo this view. My sources there tell me her work in Manchester Diocese was widely respected (as was she) by those from across the spectrum of church tradition - even by those who were fundamentally opposed to women in holy orders, or gay people in holy orders. It was her integrity, willingness to engage with and make provision for those she disagreed with, and wanting to work for the good of all that won her respect. My wider sources in the Church of England tell me a similar story of her work in the national General Synod role she held. Once again, my sources in Monmouth present a very similar picture. On the whole, my sources are also consistent about her less positive side - she is not the most charismatic of people (particularly when ‘up front’), and though she is actually a very pastorally aware and astute person, she can come across as cold at times.
DeleteBut if I were still in the CiW, I would be rejoicing today as I’d much rather have a slightly aloof, slightly boring seeming person of integrity who is a natural reconciler and willing to make accommodation for all - including those she disagrees with - than a duplicitous show pony, or a half-wit who thinks they know it all just because they wear a purple shirt and pointy hat.
I realise her election won’t be thought good news by everyone, though, and had there been a wider (and better) field of candidates from which to choose, I may have taken a different view, just because of the strength of feeling some have about her gender and sexuality. But as things stand, I think her election gives the CiW the best chance it has of rebuilding after several dreadful (including one scandalous and disastrous) recent appointments to the role. The electors have done their job well, in my view.
From henceforth the electoral college should be known as a 'Cherry Picker'
ReplyDeleteWhat place for evangelicals now?
ReplyDeleteThere are evangelicals and evangelicals. By no means all are opposed to female ministry and/or same-sex relationships although some (for instance the Fellowship of Independent Evangelical Churches) are. In my own Baptist denomination (Baptist Union of Great Britain, not of Wales) there is a breadth of opinion although I'd guess that (say) 65-70% would take a conservative line with respect to same-sex relationship and a far lower percentage would reject female leadership. (NB Not all Baptists are evangelical, although most are).
DeleteLet us hope it is the end for evangelicals in Wales as they have destroyed the church from within. Cherry is exactly what we need.
DeletePetronas
Oh dear Petronas - I think you must be living in some parallel dream world! There may be some evangelicals clinging on to the official Anglican faith somewhere in Wales, but there are very few still with CiW. To say they have "destroyed the church from within" surely means you are confusing evangelicals (bible focussed lovers of Jesus) with liberals (self focussed lovers of anything that is fashionable)
DeleteThe Methodist Church?
ReplyDeleteSir Omicron Pi
Now here's an idea. As Minus Morris is now, effectively, redundant Oop North. Why not translate him to Tintern? First Female gay Archbishop with a gay assistant, and soon to be married to his husband. Another FIRST.
ReplyDeleteSir Omicron Pi.
In my opinion, it is time he spent some years serving in very ordinary parishes, where he can prove he has the character appropriate to a priest, let alone a bishop. Let’s see how he gets on without being obsessed with getting on and having a gullible fool to flatter into being his patron. Hopefully he would prove us all wrong and come out at the end of it a far better priest and bishop.
DeleteI hear this sentiment in many quarters. Sounds harsh, but I think it necessary if as a Church we are to regain any credibility. A few years honest parish work under his belt, having popped his mitre in the bottom draw. Put a distance between 'what was' and 'what should be'. He'll emerge the better. He's as much a casualty isn't he, poor dab.
DeleteAsaph
Doth Gerwhine dare to speak in our name? Interloper.
DeleteGwir-Adroddwr
Can't see any legitimate reason why Monmouth would need an assistant bishop. It's close enough to Cardiff where the RB is based and the Diocese isn't geographically big enough or populated enough to need another mitre.
ReplyDeleteI'm happy for Bishop Cherry's appointment but I suspect Bishop David's future is in parish ministry.
Calixtus
Archbishop John Davies did not have an Assistant Bishop. I can’t see that Bangor needed one either. Rowan Williams, the last Bishop of Monmouth to be Archbishop, didn’t have an Assistant Bishop, although Bishop David Thomas of blessed memory helped from time to time. Cherry Vann doesn’t need one either.
DeleteOne could almost formulate a law that if Archbishop Andy John could make a mistake he would.
One mistake was to appoint (by delegation) a Dean in his final weeks in office, instead of leaving the appointment to his successor, who would have to work with the Dean.
Another mistake was to appoint an Assistant Bishop at the age of 38. I remember that when one Archbishop of Wales needed an Assistant Bishop he told me that the person selected had to be of roughly the Archbishop’s own age. This was to ensure that the Assistant would not be active for too long after the diocese ceased to be an Archbishop’s see. Bishop David Morris could be Assistant Bishop of Bangor for over 30 more years (assuming the Church in Wales survives that long). An unfortunate appointment for the man himself and the diocese.
Cymro Alltud
A lesbian in a civil partnership whose first contact with the Church in Wales was when she was summoned from waiting in the room next door to the electoral college to be photographed with her live-in girlfriend.
ReplyDeleteAt this point the Church in Wales are being downright fraudulent describing themselves as a Christian organisation.
ReplyDelete"For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions."
That time is now. Personal passions consistently rank above sound teaching, which is why the feminists and the gays with their own proud and human-centric agenda, have taken over the easily led and weak.
"For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them."
Sad, very sad times.
Very sad indeed, Veritas.
Delete"As for My people, children are their oppressors, And women rule over them. O My people! Those who lead you cause you to err, And destroy the way of your paths.”
Isaiah 3:12
I generally agree with Father Duddleswell. I'm met Cherry several times and his analysis is spot on. If she is the reconciler many attest to then she could be a good interim. It's insane to me why Bangor was not filled first though.
DeleteIdeally a mix between her, John Lomas and Dorrien Davies would have been preferable being in a first marriage with an opposite sex partner according to Apostolic teaching. But things are so dire in CiW, she seems to be the best of the bunch who are willing. It may be that +St Asaph declined the 'buggins' turn and somehow Cherry has risen to the top?
The question now - does +Bardsey translate to +Caerleon? It would show steel to decline David and opt for one's own choice, but I think she will offer it to him at least. Don't worry, the RB will cough up more of your money for the move from Bangor to Cyncoed!
She will take an Assistant under the recommendations of the Monmouth Review.
Whamab
A sad day indeed.
ReplyDeleteI shall have to change my name - any altar angel would be ashamed to be still there....
DeleteQuite literally nothing less than a complete disaster.
ReplyDeleteLet's see if the "slightly boring seeming person of integrity who is a natural reconciler and willing to make accommodation for all" will appoint a replacement Bishop for David Thomas, in order to cater for those of us who refuse to accept Priestesses, queers and queens.
The smart money is already on a big fat No.
Far more likely that she'll promote the trans creature of St. John's in Cardiff to minister to the hordes of delusional self-identifiers clamouring to get into the cult in Wales.
DeleteBewildered
That is the danger, let's see if she will appoint an 'orthodox' evangelical or anglo-catholic and not a revisionist liberal.
DeleteWhamab
The Grand Mufti of all the Faiths will no doubt be dancing a jig tonight in his very own little Mordor, Llys Ego.
DeleteOh, the sheer calamity. A thoughtful and qualified Archbishop is appointed and suddenly the Church is teetering on the edge of moral collapse. How bold of her to exist without asking permission from the 1953 edition of church etiquette. But do carry on, your discomfort says more than you realise, and it will keep saying it every time you look in the glass.
DeleteBangor Congregant
It has nothing to do with 1953 but everything to do with that book, you know, the one you love to ignore, called the Bible. And its teachings which are unequivocally clear about the abomination that is homosexuality, let alone the clear teachings of St Paul who was tasked with ensuring the Church continued as Jesus intended.
DeleteYou are nothing more than a congregant in a club for deviants. Enjoy.
As expected! DISMAYED.
ReplyDeleteI have no sympathy for the remaining gullible pew-sitters.
ReplyDeleteWhen the votes were fiddled thirty years ago to begin ordaining women as priestesses, there were plenty of people providing early warnings of the likely end result.
And here we are, only 28 years later and everything that was predicted has come about.
Wales now has its very own Kathryn Jefferts Schori.
Indeed Cymru'r Groes.
Deletehttps://ancientbritonpetros.blogspot.com/2022/05/a-feminist-future-for-church-in-wales.html
Excellent news! Congratulations Archbishop Cherry!
ReplyDeleteRevival in Wales starts tomorrow.
DeleteDaniel Rowland
🤣🤣🤣
DeleteRegression in Wales accelerates tomorrow.
George & Kevin will have a field day on Anglican Unscripted.
Cherry is the entirely predictable DEI Common Purpose Stonewall box-ticking ✅ shoo-in.
Who really gives the slightest importance to what George & Kevin have to say. If you have ever watched any of their YouTube worship services online, then you'll know that they are as dull as can be. Let them enjoy their inconsequential echo-chamber. ++Cherry won't be watching.
DeleteElect-her
That must be the reason the viewing numbers for Anglican Unscripted continue to grow, unlike anything in the cult in Wales.
DeleteOn the upside, perhaps Offa's trench will now also be in the running for Canterbury and be translated to Kent before she can be installed in Wales
ReplyDelete😂
This is such good news. She is prayerful in her work, considerate in her dealings with others, and understanding of her position. We should pray for her, for ourselves, for our church. She preaches with care and wisdom. Her work in Monmouth has dealt with complex issues sympathetically, we need her wisdom, her ability to bring people together, support her in her work. Her command of incidental liturgical welsh is sound. Those around her speak highly of her, those who have met her understand that she is so aware of he congregations needs. Pray for her ..... she has been given responsibilities that few of us could assume. I am proud she is our Archbishop .....
ReplyDeleteVomit inducing drivel.
Delete🤢 🤮
What, I wonder, will now become of the massive and lavish timber edifice Andrew John spent thousands on to create for himself - as archbishop - an outside shed 'Prayer Room' which took up much of his garden. A huge, expensively furnished monstrosity. He argued that he needed it for worship gatherings of his droves of visitors and pilgrims who'd come to pay homage. Will it now be crane-hoisted onto a wide-load transporter and re-erected in Monmouth? Perhaps, as it was never used, it could be returned to IKEA or B&Q for a refund. Another example of brash unnecessary spending in Bangor. Hopefully the new Bishop of Bangor will simply use a local church or cathedral for praying rather than build himself a private facility.
DeleteCherry sounds as if she will be a breath of fresh air. So different to the recent pompous egotistical fools. I pray she will be a positive force for good in our Church and for Wales.
ReplyDeleteShe's merely another self-interested Stonewall disciple spreading the queered rainbow poison to the feeble minded.
DeleteBewildered
Open your eyes and your mind and perhaps the God of surprises will change your outlook.
ReplyDeleteSounds to me suspiciously like you're suggesting conversion therapy....🤣🤣🤣
DeleteIf Cherryade is as sweet and refreshing and so capable of quenching the C-in-W thirst for change why are almost all AB Bloggers suggesting we should pray for her??! If God has already created an archbishop of such perfection - as some maintain - what more do you expect of Him? He's a busy chap ... there's a whole lot of 'Pardoning' and Forgiving of former and serving Bishops and Deans to do which after all is what his job is.
ReplyDeleteI recall same shout out for Prayers when Andrew John was elected Archbishop 'Pray for Andy' etc. Fat lot of good that did!
DeleteSuch were the utterances of the clanging gongs and clashing cymbals.
DeleteThe LGBTQIA2S flag on the altar says it all. A symbol of Pride and of pride.
ReplyDeleteDisheartened
The image is well chosen by AB in order to be inflammatory. This was a one off engagement undertaken by Bishop Cherry when she was invited to speak at Open Table. Cherry doesn't carry a progress flag with her on her visits to churches in order to display it on the altar. Not her style.
DeleteSo, far from the flag saying 'it all', in this context, it says very little and certainly much less than you infer. Nothing to see here.
PoppingYourCherry
If she was as virtuous as you suggest she could have asked for it to be removed and she doesn't need to carry the rag while she has gormless gay minions to do the dirty work for her.
DeleteThe image certainly speaks volumes as was intended by those who posed for the photograph, those who took the photograph and those who published it, none of whom were Ancient Briton.
Clowns to the left, Jokers to the right and Cherry front & centre.
Bewildered
No. You’re wrong. Nothing to see here. Open Table event - the progress altar frontal is commonplace.
DeletePoppingYourCherry
No I'm not wrong.
DeleteThe "progress" flag on anything is an affront but on an Altar it's sacrilege.
God does not bless sin.
Take your queer theology and shove it it in your bonus hole.
I’d enjoy that. Thing is, you know you would too.
DeleteCheriffic.
No doubt you would.
Delete🥱🥱🥱🥱😴😴😴😴
'Bishop' David. . You seem to have many incarnations on this site! Let's hope all these thousands of gay people will now start attending church, but I doubt it. I trust your stress will soon be over and you can start earning your over inflated stipend from your totally unnecessary position.
ReplyDeleteSir Omicron Pi
Bitter and unnecessary. You clearly fancy him.
DeleteCherrific
He does seem obsessed!!!
DeleteI don't think Lady Pi would agree with you. 😁
DeleteSir Omicron.
The article from "Christian Concern" says it all for me. We already have deans and archdeacons of dubious morality expecting to serve us, now we have an archbishop elect who will expect to do the same. In my dismay I'm going to steer clear of all of them and look elsewhere.
ReplyDeleteGood riddance. Tatty Bye.
DeleteCherrific
Cherific you shouldn't be saying good riddance to those who disagree with you. You can't see how distressed many of us are. It's just as bad in England as it's strongly assumed that the Bishop of Chelmsford (Iranian born woman) is to be Archbishop of Canterbury. Canon Giles Fraser is urging the incoming ABC to do a same sex marriage in Westminster Abbey within one week of Enthronement. That would be the end of the Anglican Communion. Like you Cherific, he doesn't mind kicking in the guts those who've given decades of time and talents and money to the Church. Some of us have no idea where to go. Saying good riddance to us is highly offensive.
DeleteCymraes yn Lloegr
You've dressed up your prejudice as orthodoxy, and we see through it. Good riddance to you. You'll find like minded, narrow minded, racist and homophobic kinfolk in Gafcon. Don't delay, off with you.
DeleteCheriffic
So Cherific you've decided that I'm narrow minded, racist and homophobic. You're so wrong. My heritage is part Indian so please explain why you're so sure I'm racist. How come some of my wider family speak a Middle Eastern language as mother tongue. I was adopted into a Welsh speaking family which is how I'm a Cymraes. Please explain how I'm homophobic when a lot of my friends are in stable same sex relationships. Please provide the evidence that I preach to them or make homophobic comments to them, as you're so certain about this. Otherwise go and find someone else to troll.
DeleteCymraes yn Lloegr
You’ve explained yourself and I apologise - I take back the indictment around race. Too far.
DeleteCheriffic
I sense a strong and verging on aggressive Lesbian-aggro flow of messaging in all this post-Cherry discussion; many of whom probably have no interest whatsoever in the core subject.
ReplyDeleteIf ++Cherry Vann intends to swiftly end the strife within, then at least she ought perhaps put out her own message to have the Lesbo blogging stopped. If she doesn't then perhaps AB (himself) should regain control of his site; a blogsite which used to be interesting to refer to ... but now becoming power-point of Lesbian advocacy. Only Cherry Vann can stop this - unless of course she's enjoying her fan-zone appreciation society.
Probably her girlfriend is behind it all.
DeleteBewildered
Old Bill,
DeleteInteresting how you only care when people are arguing the other side? Yourself and many other geriatric complainants spew endless rhetoric on this site year round, but that has never been stopped. Why should the new archbishop go out of her way to stop comments on a site that has no real implications on anything? Frankly, this site is normally an echo chamber for old men to try to propagate hatred, so it’s refreshing to see the other side for once.
Benedictus.
I think what’s possibly surprised you is that the flow of messaging has been congratulatory in tone.
DeleteCheriffic
I'm guessing most of the old men will also be representing the views of their old ladies.
DeleteThe "flow" has been so obviously manufactured by one person unconvincingly posing as multiple noms-de-plume.
Risible.
Old Men. Old women. Still seeing the world in black and white, Ruth? Must be exhausting trying to get your head around more nuanced reality.
DeleteWe don't hear from you often, so I am guessing you're also still on dial-up? So last century.
Pipex
Far FAR better in black and white than tainted by rainbow perversion.
DeleteI am an evangelical priest in the CiW. If as many say the new archbishop engages well with those who disagree with her; will it be acceptable still to say courteously that I still find homosexuality to be contrary to how I understand scripture? I don't make it the be all and end all. There are more important things to be getting on with like introducing Jesus to a world dying without him.
ReplyDeleteShe would agree with your priority. That’s what’s refreshing about her.
DeleteGwir-Adroddwr
She would say that though, wouldn't she?
DeleteMandy Rice-Davies
What I find extraordinary in the election of Cherry Vann is that immediately after her election, the press office extolled her "reconciling" traits. Yet in her first interview with the BBC, she trumpeted her sexuality, gender; and the need for more diversity in the Church in Wales. Any hope of reconciliation for Anglo-Catholics, Evangelicals, or Bible-believing Anglicans was lost in that first interview. There are people in our congregation - the very people the Church in Wales needs - who are left despairing and on the point of throwing in the towel having heard Cherry's interview this morning.
ReplyDeleteThat said, I wrote to Cherry Vann some time back on an entirely different issue, and I received a gracious and well thought out reply. So I am not entirely negative about Cherry as a person. For me, the jury is out.
The real "Benedictus"
Surprised to hear you even need a Jury for such a blatant hypocrite.
DeleteBewildered
In her first interview what I heard her speak to was victims of abuse (past and present). I didn't hear her speak to an agenda of inclusivity. Typical of Cherry, her first words were for those marginalised and oppressed. I thought the LGBTQI agenda was very much in the background, if there at all. She will not hide who she is; as she says, she did that for far too long, but nor will she self-promote. A very safe pair of archiepiscopal hands indeed.
DeleteCheriffic
"The Church in Wales should represent the "diversity around the world and in our communities", its new archbishop has said."
DeleteThe Church in Wales should represent the "word of God, the teachings of his son Yeshua of Nazareth and Holy scripture " the new Archbishopesse SHOULD have said.
The self-serving hypocrite has already revealed her true priorities.
Didn't take long at all.
@ (the bogus) Benedictus and others
DeleteRe your pot-shot and the irony at 'geriatrics' views being an echo-chamber for hatred and discourse. You've shot yourself in the foot. Your champion, Cherry Vann, born in October 1958, also comes under English language dictionary and medical definition as 'Geriatric'. Ooops.
I don't think (the bogus) Benedictus was having a pot-shot at 'geriatrics' so much as calling you out in particular, Old Bill. They're right, you only ask for censure when opinions differ to yours. Hope that clears that up, snowflake.
DeleteNuncDimittis
One has to ask the question, could "Cherrific" crawl any further up Vann's back passage?
DeleteWhat a truly despicable maggot.
Don’t!
DeleteCheriffic
You'd like that too.
DeleteBewildered
Cherrific, you miss the point entirely. The CiW cannot claim that Cherry is a reconciling force, when she has nothing to say to those who feel the most aggrieved. The "marginalized and oppressed" in the CiW today are the Anglo-Catholics, the Evangelicals, and the Bible believing Anglicans. Where were the reconciling words for them?
ReplyDeleteThe Church exists to promote Jesus, not to promote the agenda of the LGBT+ community, or any other group for that matter. If Cherry is working to Barry Morgan's Agenda of "more of the same, only faster", the quicker we close the CiW down, the better. The people of Wales deserve better, but Jesus definitely deserves better.
The real "Benedictus"
Exactly. Thank you Benedictus
DeleteThis.
Delete☝️☝️☝️☝️
Shut down the swamp.
Stop your giving.
Stop going.
Resign from the electoral rolls.
Don't repair the roofs
Don't repair the Organs.
Don't donate money.
Let it implode and die under the weight of its own filth.
Living in Lust and Filth.
Bewildered
I have stopped going and giving, others will do likewise. No incentive to go to a so-called church that sees the New Testament as old fashioned, sin as righteous and tradition as a joke. We already have many other clubs and societies in the UK which have those beliefs.
DeleteIf you live in Cardiff get yourself to All Nations Church. They hate gays there too.
DeleteElect-her
Just like you hate orthodox Christians and 80% of the Anglican communion by the look....
DeleteWhamab
99.9% of the people in Wales already have nothing to do with the church.
DeleteMay it soon be 100%.
Is being in a same sex relationship such a heinous sin? There are far greater atrocities. Let's show humility and love and give her a chance. She hasn't got a lot to live up to.
ReplyDeleteYou give her all the chances you like and your 10% but she'll not be seeing a single penny of mine.
DeleteShe's utterly squalid as is the Church in Wales.
Bewildered
Bewildered, is this how you speak of all LGBTQ people? Squalid. What a lovely person you must be - Jesus must be very proud of you, I can imagine him giving you a great big hug and congratulating you on taking such a judgmental and dismissive stance about others. You’re one of his greatest advocates and I bet people are drawn to the gospel you proclaim. Well done, though good and hateful servant.
DeleteElect-her
I'm not a believer in your imaginary omnipotent invisible sky-fairy, I despise all religions.
DeleteMy gay friends refuse to have anything to do with the Church, PRIDE marches, rainbow lanyards or Stonewall.
Hypocrisy is squalid.
What's your point?
Bewildered
'Gay friends'? They must adore you, cupcake.
DeleteElect-her
We share mutual personal respect and, perhaps surprisingly for your ilk, agree on far more matters than disagree.
DeleteWhat's your point sweetpea?
Bewildered
James 3:1
ReplyDelete3 `Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly`.
Let those without sin cast the first stone. Hypocrisy and lack of humility.
ReplyDeleteYou describe her perfectly.
Delete👏👏👏👏
Bewildered
It's crystal clear now there is no place for Christians who simply believe in the traditional view of family life in the Church in Wales. Hateful shouts of 'good riddance' and 'tatty bye' expose the reality that the CiW is definitely not for everyone. Diversity is an illusion they don't actually truly believe in themselves.
ReplyDeleteWhamab
I agree Whamab. I know what it's like to be excluded because of prejudice. To be told 'good riddance' from someone who claims to be a supporter of Cherry Vann and, I'm assuming, a worshipper in the Church in Wales, is beyond the pale. Diversity should mean a diverse range of views. Sadly for Cherific and his friends, diversity means 'agree with us or leave'. Intolerant not diverse at all.
DeleteMany years ago I was excluded from an Anglican Church because my face didn't fit. I was devastated but had to accept that I wasn't wanted. It's painful and triggering to read a troll's comment 'good riddance' because of what he perceives me, and others, to be.
Maybe Cherry Vann should make it clear - is there still a place in the Church in Wales for those who still believe in scripture, history and tradition and who disagree with her views on marriage and on ordination. Or has that train already left the station?
Cymraes yn Lloegr
We have to draw the line at hate and those who support conversion therapy.
DeletePixie
CinW is no place for those who hate gays. There are churches where “God hates fags” is still the mantra. In Cardiff try Highfields or All Nations. It’s getting harder to find homophobic churches tbh. But I’ve given you a steer. No need to thank me.
DeleteElect-her
I agree Elect-her. Nor should it be a place for those who hate traditionalists. I'll not thank you and you need not thank me on my steer to you.
DeleteWhamab
Thank you Whammy. Manners maketh, my mum always says.
DeleteElect-her.
It's blatantly obvious that Pixie, Elect-her and Cherrific are all one and the same fool.
DeleteNobody hates gays,
You mistake pity for hate.
As Laughing Gas suggested, the only Conversion Therapy actually going on is that trying to persuade everyone that homosexuality is acceptable in the eyes of God.
It isn't.
It never will be.
You might have succeeded in queering the Church in Wales and the Church of England but you will NEVER succeed in queering the Scriptures.
Lots of queers to be found in the scriptures. You don’t have to go looking for them. As for the so called texts of terror, we can critique those along with the Bible’s support for slavery and its disdain for eating prawns.
DeleteDon’t show yourself to be a levitical Luddite. Steve Chalke’s work makes for good reading if you who have an evangelical bent. Get with it.
Cheriffic
Agreed.
DeleteThey make a grand appearance in Sodom and Gomorrah followed by an even grander disappearance.
Thanks be to God.
You made my day, Subversive Canon!
DeleteOnly too delighted to hear it Ex-AA.
DeleteMay you find your way back to the Altar asap and may it be free of rainbow 🌈 rags.
Ble mae’r Gymraeg?
ReplyDeleteDo people threatening to "leave" believe in the objective presence of Christ in the Eucharist? If not, they won't be worried about what they might be missing; if they do, they should perhaps recall the doctrine expressed in Article XXVI, "Of the Unworthiness of the Ministers, which hinders not the effect of the Sacraments". And while we're on the subject of unworthiness, let's have less of the sheer nastiness expressed in some of the comments on this and preceding threads.
ReplyDeleteAmen and amen.
DeleteGwir-Adroddwr
Matthew, all ministers of the sacraments are unworthy one way or another. When the 39 Articles were compiled, the ministers of the sacrament were not flaunting their sin, and then going to the altar to administer the sacraments. Article 26 refers to the instances where the sin becomes apparent. In such circumstances, the minister's sin does not invalidate the sacrament.
ReplyDeleteWe are not talking about that anymore. The message given out by the bishops and the GB is that sin is acceptable in all its guises. They have taken up the cry, "Let us sin all the more that grace might abound." They don't even have the good decency to blush when they say it!
Staying is nothing more than acquiescing to what the CiW is doing. A year September the GB will vote on the Bill to allow gay marriage in church. Scripture says it is wrong and sinful. Scripture also teaches us that the Lord Jesus Christ is the Head of the Church, not any bishop, and most definitely not the GB (the majority of whose members are theologically and christologically illiterate). Our Lord's teaching is that marriage is between a man and a woman for life. Any Church worth its salt would say that gay marriage is a no-go area, since our Lord has given us his verdict on the subject.
At their ordination, the clergy and bishops affirm that they believe the doctrines which the Church in Wales has received. They affirm that they believe and will uphold the Scriptures. Yet, at the first instance, they ditch them. Why would anyone want to stay with such out and out liars?
Jesus said, "The sheep know my voice and they follow me." Sadly, having ousted him from the CiW, to replace him with the prophets who spout the message of the zeitgeist, the Lord's voice gets ever quieter. Those who have a care for their souls will follow him.
The Loose Canon
Amen, Loose Cannon.
DeleteCouldn't have put it better.
Thankyou Loose Canon. Veritas is correct and you couldn't have put it better. I would like to add to your comments that the 39 Articles are man (woman) made and not found per se in any Bible I have read. That they are human made is probably the escape route for those who wish to deny the scriptures in favour of their own interpretation of modern morality. I cannot see that clergy in a same sex relationship can honestly believe they are representing Christ at the eucharist time after time. Dismayed.
DeleteVery well said, Loose Canon!
DeleteI’m adopting a ‘wait and see’ approach at the moment. I have heard very impressive things about Bishop Cherry’s attitude to those who completely disagree with her - both words and actions - from her work locally and more widely in the Church of England and from Monmouth. So I’m waiting to see. Those who fear a complete move into revisionism (if the CiW has any distance left to go in that direction, that is) may well be proved right. But what I have heard from some very credible sources who are most definitely not revisionists makes me stop to ponder whether some of us might be totally misinterpreting what she means by ‘diversity’.
ReplyDeleteIf I’m right (and that remains to be seen), what I’ve heard suggests to me that her view of diversity is a denomination should not be characterised by monochrome traditionalism, but it also should not be characterised by monochrome revisionism either. Instead there should be workable, appropriate, provision for all, to the point where any who want to stay can stay, provided they are willing to treat those they disagree with in a way that respects them all as children of God.
If I’m right, and that is her view, she proves willing to back it up with actions, and those whose views lie at the more extreme ends of traditionalism and revisionism are willing to stop trying to force the future of the CiW into ‘my way or the highway’, that could be very good news for all concerned.
I’ll wait and see if I’m right with the humility to realise I may be wrong - too early to tell.
That certainly seemed to be what she was saying in her interview with BBC Radio Wales.
ReplyDeleteThat's my reading too. Safe pair of hands.
ReplyDeleteCheriffic
https://anglicanmainstream.org/article/statement-from-bishop-andy-lines-and-bishop-stuart-bell-on-the-appointment-of-cherry-vann-as-archbishop-of-wales/
DeleteTBF, that's a more gracious response than the Gafcon one. I don't agree with Bell but at least he acknowledges ++Cherry's competence, even if he doesn't for one minute agree that she should be Archbishop.I imagine that's much the same kind of splitting he adopts when dealing with his lesbian daughter.
DeleteCherifficacious
Yeah, you've got to admire God's wicked sense of humour: Gafcon bishop with lesbian daughter.
DeleteLesbell
Perhaps it hasn't occurred to the queer loving fifth columnists thst its far more likely to be a Satanic sense of humour behind such a sad situation?
Deletehttps://gafcon.org/communique-updates/archbishop-of-wales-election-shatters-the-communion/
ReplyDeleteRather intrigued by all of this + + when describing Cherry. What's it all about ?
ReplyDeleteSir Omicron Pi
+ is shorthand for Bishop (it's how they sign documents).
Delete++ is shorthand for Archbishop.
-- is shorthand for the level of esteem in which Darth --Insidious was and continues to be held.
--Cherry is also far more appropriate.
Bishops using the ‘+’ (plus sign) as part of their signature originates from Greek tapeinos (ταπεινός) meaning ‘the humble one’. Rather that it being represented by the ‘+’ it would be more correctly abbreviated to the letter ‘T’ (‘tau’).
DeleteIts use by Anglican bishops only crept in during the last century: previously they used only their Christian name (or just the initials of their Christian names) followed by the Latin form (or abbreviated form) of their diocese.
‘++’ in front of an archbishop’s name is a high church calligraphic solecism: as is the custom of some American episcopalian priests using ‘+’ after their name.
The Rt Revd Andrew Alexander Kenny Graham when Bishop of Newcastle signed "A. Newcastle". This was both correct and sufficient.
Delete++ is shorthand for Archbishop, + is shorthand for Bishop.
ReplyDelete@ Baptist Trainfan
Delete... and ££ denotes Sion ap Rhys, eg ££sub-dean.
Wasn't his call sign 🌈🌈??
DeleteA bishop signs with a + as a sign of his consecration. An archbishop is not consecrated twice and so a ++ is a nonsense. It's not seen in The Catholic or Orthodox church. It's obviously a total misunderstanding by Anglicans, of the meaning of the consecration +
DeleteSir Omicron Pi
I wouldn't get too worked up or overly literalist about it, Omicron, we need more positivity and not less and we certainly have it with ++Cherry.❤️🧡💛💚💙💜🤎🖤
DeleteElect-her
@Sir O P
DeleteI think you'll find the ++ originates from disillusioned lay people taking the piss out of sanctimonious fools in a mitre.
It might have started with the Llandaffchester Chronicles or Private Eye.
Bewildered
What would a self-serving non-conformist know of Bishops?
Delete🤣🤣🤣
Archbishop Cherry has announced that she will not be appointing an assistant bishop in Monmouth.
ReplyDeleteMynwy
If this is true, in my view it is an excellent start from Archbishop Cherry, and reflects some determination not to be sullied by the Bangor fiasco. If Bishop Morris is cleared of misconduct in relation to the events at the Cathedral and in the Diocese, taking on a parish role for a few years is his best chance of real rehabilitation, and in the future he could reasonably claim he has responded well in the aftermath, as well as having ample opportunity to rebuild his credibility as a priest (and Bishop) away from machinations, duplicity and poor judgement. I hope the electors in Bangor reflect the wishes of the wider electoral college of the CiW to draw a firm line under what has been, deal properly with the aftermath, and move on without connection to the old regime. In my view, if they elect him Bishop of Bangor, it will be disastrous for the future of the Diocese and the CiW.
Delete@Mynwy has that been published? If so where? That's bad news for David Morris then, presumably he will be made redundant when the new Bishop of Bangor is elected? Unless he himself is chosen - but since that is a decision for the Electoral College there is no guarantee.
ReplyDeleteWhamab
https://www.facebook.com/monmouthdiocese
DeleteClarification
@clarification thanks, looks like another review (Monmouth) ignored and filed away never to be seen again. Wonder how much that cost?
DeleteWhamab
Simple curiosity. Surely when a priest (such as Bangor's David Morris) is consecrated Bishop he remains so for life; it's not a Godly-gift that can be withdrawn from him simply because he no longer has a See or Stall or diocese? Any views?
ReplyDeleteMy view, for what it’s worth: consecration as a Bishop in the Church of God is for life and is indelible. Even if someone is subsequently deposed from holy orders, the legal and temporal rights and privileges of that state are removed, but the spiritual effects of consecration remain. Licensing as a Bishop in the Church in Wales, and appointment to an episcopal role are different from that, though they require consecration as a Bishop to be performed and effectual. There are plenty of examples of Bishops working as Deans, Canons or rank and file clergy across many provinces in the Anglican Communion. Some also hold honorary appointment as an Assistant Bishop in their home Diocese, and others do not.
DeleteThe most obvious example in living memory is that of Eryl Thomas.
DeleteDespite a multitude of warnings from police and the then Archbishop, he ignored everyone until neither south Wales plod nor the cult in Wales could keep a lid on his habit of cottaging in Llandaff playing fields.
He was never defrocked.
A good example of a bishop who never occupied the see for which he had been consecrated is Henry Jenner, perhaps best remembered as the author of the hymn 'We love the place, O God' (unfortunately normally sung to a really quite feeble tune).
Deletehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Jenner_(bishop)
DeleteFoot in mouth! A brief visit to the English Hymnal reveals Bp Jenner as composer of the "quite feeble tune", authorship of the words having been in quite different hands.
Deletehttps://youtu.be/a0gVtVgK-Ow?feature=shared
ReplyDeleteAnglican Unscripted 927.
--Cherry is news item 1.
What a tedious and boring pair of old farts. I listened for 2 mins and then switched off. If between them they could have accomplished a fifth of what +Cherry has in Monmouth, then I would have listened the more. White washed tombs comes to mind.
DeleteElect-her
So tose two know, do they, beyond a shadow of doubt, that Cherry was chosen because she fits in so well with Diversity, Equality and Inclusion, rather than because of any merits or capabilities she may possess? Unless they had a "mole" in the Electoral College, reporting back verbatim what was said, that is something they do not in fact know, it is simply their presumption.
DeleteThey’re professional gossips. Anglican uncorroborated is what they should be called.
DeleteAA
I watch Anglican Unscripted and was disappointed with their poorly researched item on Cherry. Their commentary on the UK and Church of England is of poor quality since Gavin Ashenden left.
DeleteCherry was not a diversity hire unless every woman is considered so. There was only 5 choices after all and one other woman. Clearly, Gregory let it pass for whatever reason so Cherry was next in line. I really don't think she was chosen just because she is civilly partnered with another woman.
Maybe it was the fact that she has turned Monmouth around that appealed to the electors? I think the damage caused recently is of another order to that of the Richard Pain aftermath though. Can she rise to the challenge? Time will tell.
Whamab
I only met (and heard preach) Richard Pain on one occasion, towards the end of his bishopric. I was not impressed, though of course everyone can have an "off day". I only discovered today that he became a Catholic priest after his retirement.
DeleteAll five "candidates" are old women and DEI box tickers.
DeleteNone of them are any use.
Agreed Exodus.
DeleteGiven the scarcity of gullible pew-sitters nowadays, one proper hard-working traditional orthodox Bishop would do for the entire Principality.
The reason the RB no longer publishes the statistics is that Sunday attendance has dropped below 10,000 and they're too embarrassed to admit the truth.
The RB itself is a farce.
The average Member of Parliament - darn'ed sight harder working and accountable than diocesan Bishops in Wales - will serve some 73,000-74,000 constituents. I wholly agree with you 1662 the number of Bishops (and archdeacons for that matter) should be seriously culled. What's more, Members of Parliament are elected by their 'parishioners' and elections far more transparent and regulated than the farcical constitution of the RB/GB/C-in-W.
DeleteAnd unlike Bishops, MPs can and are de-selected and booted out if they are inept.
With respect, you have no idea how hard bishops work. From my observation, all five are committed and work exceedingly hard. You say MPs work for 73K constituents, but in reality, how many of us have ANY interaction with our MP. I never have. By contrast, Bishops know their congregations well and are known buy them. It is not unusual for our bishops to visit congregants at home etc. You don't have a clue, Old Bill, and are speaking out of your hat.
DeleteClarice
Utter and complete twaddle Clarice.
DeleteI know several elderly widows, and clergy widows amongst them, who haven't even had a visit from a Parish Priest in the last decade, never mind a Bishop.
One dear family friend of seventy years standing only heard ONCE from Caiaphas during her five years in Llandaff and that was a begging letter asking her to increase her giving to the Cathedral.
From typhoid Mary she's heard precisely nothing, zero, nada, zilch.
Pastoral care?
Don't make me laugh or puke 🤮🤢🤮.
"Known buy them"?
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡
Pedant.
DeleteClarice
Ignoramus.
DeleteOr perhaps more appropriately, ignoranus.
With all this storm coming to a lull with Cherry's election, it does not change the fact the CiW needs serious reform. The Bench is unfit for purpose is the inescapable reality. Reading between the lines, it was the RB that made the inept John 'retire', the bench having found itself in a place of paralysis unable to police one its own members.
DeleteHow the church recovers from the disrepute caused on this bench's watch I'll never know. They all should take a share in eating humble pie.
Whamab
In my view, Whamab, there are three things that need serious consideration - the number of Bishops, the kinds of appointment that are being made to the Bench and how they are made, and the constitutional powers of the Bench.
DeleteThe difficulty is that until a temporary moratorium is placed on new appointments, further reform becomes extremely difficult to achieve, as its progress becomes entirely dependent on the tenure of the current office holders.
I would favour no appointment being made to Bangor until a thorough consideration of its needs and priorities has been undertaken - including exploring the question of whether it is better served by a new appointment, merging the Diocese with a neighbouring one, or allowing for Diocesan appointments to be held in plurality by Bishops. To cover this period, an interim Bishop entirely unconnected with the previous regime could usefully be put in place. But I’m not holding my breath, given how this kind of approach has been rejected in appointing a new Dean for the Cathedral.
I agree with Clarice. It is not unheard of for Bishops to make visits. I have heard of one who took out communion to the housebound at Easter. Bill and Ben.
DeleteWere they a fellow Freemason with their trouser leg rolled up and on the same square?
DeleteBewildered
Ceri Llan
DeleteA Bishop doing the pastoral rounds at Easter doesn't surprise me. It's the one Sunday when the collection-plate of 'Easter Offerings' goes into the cleric's back pocket and not even disclosed as 'unearned income'. As fewer givers attend church and fewer still these days contribute to the collection plate by doing home-visits is maybe the only way they can top up their stipends ...!
I know of parish priests especially in the more deprived areas in the South Wales valleys who have never taken an "Easter offering". They find the idea wrong. SD.
DeleteCommendable indeed, SD, but the point I was making was that the entire Anglican church (and C-in-W particularly) is so ridiculously entrenched in the ways of 500 years ago without updating that these 'perks' still exist. They're akin to the Laws governing London Hackney cabs ('Black Cabs') whereby a cabby can be taken off the road by Police if they find he hasn't got a bale of hay in the boot to feed to a horse. Of course they don't, but the law still states that they should.
DeleteThe one hangover from decades past that the C-in-W has shed is 'pastoral visitations'; even worse if you were a person in dire need of a priest's comfort, don't knock the door of a woman vicar. Under safeguarding they are within their rights to turn you away and make a later appointment when some 2nd person will attend to ensure their safety. That's your modern church for you!
Who in their right mind wants an effing priestess anyway?
DeleteMight as well call for a druid.
All clergy (and others) need to think carefully about safety and safeguarding when visiting or being visited. From CinW website: "There is risk in all pastoral work. The place of the meeting, the arrangement of furniture and lighting, and the dress of the minister are important considerations in pastoral care. The appropriateness of visiting and being visited alone, especially at night, needs to be assessed with care". No reference to the gender of the priest!
DeleteJust because someone is elderly doesn't mean they need to be visited by a member of the clergy. You are being ridiculous. How many elderly people are there? The clergy would spend all their time visiting. If someone needs a home visit they or a relative can request one. Elderly people still manage to go shopping or to the hairdressers. Who are you. You are certainly not in the real world!
ReplyDeleteIt does when they've been regular communicants, former Church Wardens, PCC members or Treasurers, Parish secretaries, Vicars widows, choir members, sidesmen, Stewards, Sunday school teachers, organists etc and are now sick, infirm, hospitalised, house-bound or in a nursing home.
DeleteHairdressers do home visits and I suppose you're ignorant of on-line shopping and home deliveries too.
Who are you?
You must be one of the plankers on the Welsh bench with such a callous disgusting attitude.
Working From Home clergy?
Time to stop all giving.
Think you need a home visit yourself Lux. Calm yourself down, no good for your blood pressure.
DeleteClarice
Au contraire Clarice.
DeleteYou need to learn some good manners and and have a treble dose of common bloody sense injected.
I bow to your sense of superiority, Lux et Veritas. Par déférence pour votre opinion, je vais reconsidérer ma position. Clearly, it's you who should have been Archbishop.
DeleteClarice
I could never have been Bishop, much less Archbishop, my parents were married.
DeleteFor you, we would make an exception.Vous êtes la personne idéale pour ce poste.
DeleteClarice
Clarice, desist please.
ReplyDeleteI remember David Morris has very good French.
ReplyDeleteSir Omicron Pi
Obsessed
DeleteGood for GAFCON.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c9877211ny6o
LGBTQIA+-&£#@ chaplain Sarah Hildreth spouting her usual pro-queer theological drivel.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/gift/e2fbd884c3347ec2
DeleteLooks as though Islam might have a much bigger problem than a mere lesbian "archbishop".
🤣🤣
I thought she spoke well and is very well respected in the Diocese.
DeleteAsaph
🤢🤢🤢🤢🤢 🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮
DeleteIs that you Gerwhine of the pink gins and rum Pansies 🍹🎊🪅🎍?
DeleteThe latest on the Archbishop saga.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c9877211ny6o
You've got to laugh - the headline says "Church will not comment on archbishop sexuality row". Then when you read the article, the Reverend Canon Sarah Hildreth Osborn of St Asaph has plenty to say about the GAFCON statement. She clearly believes that GAFCON are putting the nails in the coffin of Anglicanism.
Perhaps Sarah Hildreth Osborn ought to learn something of the "one holy catholic and apostolic Church" which she is supposed to profess in the liturgy each Sunday. The Cult in Wales is not supposed to be isolationist, so that the LGBT+ community can apply its own doctrines. Whilst she is at it, perhaps she could learn something of Church history and the history of Christian doctrine, especially that pertaining to marriage. According to the Catechism of the Church, matrimony is still listed as follows.
What is Holy Matrimony?
Holy Matrimony is a lifelong union, instituted by God, into which a man and woman enter. Christians make their vows before God and the Church, and receive the grace and blessing of God to help them fulfil their vows.
Even when the bishops have it set out in the Catechism, they are so thick that they need a consultation process in each diocese to find out whether two men or two women can get married. The answer is an unmitigated, "No."
Since it is the apostate bishops who want to walk away from the historic formularies and lead the people of Wales into error, the answer to your question "Who are putting the nails into the coffin of Anglicanism?", the answer is straight forward, the Cult in Wales, its apostate bishops, its ignorant electoral college and its governing body. GAFCON are merely preaching the apostolic truth, which the Cult in Wales hasn't got the guts to do.
The Loose Canon
Quite agree sir.
DeleteDid Cherry lie when she said she wanted to promote healing in the church in Wales. Then she brags in the Telegraph about 'hiding her girlfriend from visitors', as if those expecting a priest to follow traditional ethics were somehow unenlightened?
ReplyDeleteShe should have not made these implicit criticisms of orthodoxy if she was serious about healing. Or are we just unwelcome and excluded now? I think we know the answer. Diversity is an illusion. Everyone included and welcome a fantasy in CiW.
Whamab
God you lot are nasty and unkind, not to mention, ill-informed.
ReplyDeleteAsaph
Not to mention unwelcome in Cherry's church.
DeleteAnyone that disagrees or disapproves with the LGBTQIA doctrine is unwelcome and heretical in the land of the Sarah Hildreth Osborn's dyke dystopia.
Bewildered
After reading the comments above, it seems like you're all dramatically self-excluding, as if LGBTQ inclusion is some kind of personal attack. Let's be clear: there's room in our churches even for people still clinging to outdated homophobic prejudices. Yes, you’ll be in the minority now (because empathy is trending), and you'll need to be cautious when airing certain views; bigotry doesn’t get the same applause it used to. But don’t ghost the congregation just yet. The church is for everyone, even those who think “love thy neighbour” comes with an asterisk.
DeleteEkklesia
"Self-excluding"?
DeleteWell, yes, too right. No-one who believes that the Scriptures (and the vast heritage of ecumenical councils and teachings since Pentecost) are the Word and Will of God through men inspired by the Holy Spirit, would have anything to do with a Cult that throws that all away to pander to feminism, mental illness and gender ideology.
Might as well become Buddhist as it has about as much relevance to the Apostolic teachings as the Cult in Wales does.
But you enjoy your Alphabet-pleasing version of "being in AND of the world" while those on the outside pray that the Holy Spirit might one day work a change in the hearts of the people who destroyed the English and Welsh Anglican churches.
Do you take a similar stance on issues of race, disability and the role of women, Veritas?
DeleteAsaph
Asaph you say that like it is some sort of trump card. It is not. Acts 15 clearly shows sexual ethics were a first order issue to the Apostles. Women's ministry and orders are considered adiaphora by many. You compare apples with oranges.
DeleteDo you really believe the Apostles would've approved of Cherry's election?
Whamab
Asaph. Nasty for asking her to keep her promise? Come on stop the dog-whistle nonsense.
DeleteHow am I ill informed? Did Cherry say that or didn't she?
Whamab
Good luck to you Whamab, you can't reason with stupidity and bigotry, or stupidity and bigotry combined.
DeleteName calling is just childish and an easy cop out from debate.
DeleteWhamab
@ ekklesia Jesus taught that "those who love the world cannot love the Father", and since the "Father and I are one", it means there is no love for Jesus either. You and the Cult in Wales can delude yourselves that you are doing the right thing, but the Universal Church has rejected your version of Christianity, and looking at the figures for Wales, so has the people of Wales. What it shows is that the Cult has got nothing to say that the people of Wales wants to listen to.
ReplyDeleteAs for loving thy neighbour, Jesus used the word agape, not eros. Agape implies being prepared to go to the cross, and laying down one's life. It was something Jesus did, rather than talk about. Since there are plenty of gay people facing the death penalty around the world, why have not gone and taken your stand with them? Why have you not offered your life for theirs? Or did you find an asterisk which exempts you from this?
The Loose Canon
One slight problem with that theory is that Yeshua/Yehoshua of Nazareth didn't speak Greek so he couldn't have used the either the word Agape or the word Eros.
DeleteWhat Aramaic word(s) did he use?
Bewildered
One slight problem with that theory is that Yeshua/Yehoshua of Nazareth didn't speak Greek so he couldn't have used the either the word Agape or the word Eros.
DeleteWhat Aramaic word(s) did he use?
Bewildered
Run with some tangents of the Church-In-Wales who lobby that senior appointments only be offered to Cymraeg-cyntafs and you'd believe that Iesu Grist didn't need Greek anyway ... he was fluent in Welsh.
DeleteYour obsession with parsing Greek words to justify your discomfort with gay people is laughable. Congratulations, you Googled something in Koine Greek and still managed to miss the part where Jesus literally ate with outcasts and embraced the marginalised.
DeleteAlso, the bit where you assume I am gay and suggest people should die for gay people to prove their love? That’s… dark. Are you okay? Or are you just upset that the “Cult in Wales” (read: a church showing actual compassion) is out here doing Christianity rather than being an angry little doctrine club?
Honestly, if Jesus came back tomorrow, your biggest problem wouldn't be explaining your theology—it would be explaining your search history and why you’ve mistaken bigotry for faith.
Ekklesia