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| Church in Wales Governing Body Meeting 06 Sept 2021 discussing same-sex blessings Source: BBC News |
On his own admission the bishop of St Asaph prefers queers to evangelicals. That was his conclusion as bishop Gregory responded to the debate on same-sex blessings.
Sounding like a Taliban spokesman claiming every deed to be the will of Allah the bishop said, "I will not betray them, not for any price in this world or the next because I believe it is the will of Christ."
Others in the Church in Wales believe the opposite but the Bill passed when laity and clergy secured the necessary 2/3rds majority. Unsurprisingly the 4 bishops present voted for the Bill in one mind, that of the bishop of St Asaph.
Misinterpreting Galatians 3:28, the bishop of Llandaff, June Osborne, seconded the Motion. She invoked memories of the departed to help bolster support for the Bill. Ignoring the Chair's intervention as she over-ran her allotted time bishop June ploughed on. She just wanted to "honour the memory of archdeacon Sue Pinnington who tragically died at the end of July."
Bishop Osborne suggested that the speech archdeacon Sue would have made would have put the proposed liturgy in the context of mission to which she had 'dedicated her life':
"It may well be that she would have spoken about her sense of God's blessing on her long and godly same-sex life partnership." - The first of a number of archdeacons who would tick the box.
A disproportionate procession of gay clergy from vicars to archdeacons came to the rostrum to support the Bill illustrating that their sexuality had been no hindrance to their careers.
There were claims of suffering among gay and lesbian people as though they have a monopoly on suffering but they still have a church to attend unlike others who have been rejected and left to pray at home.
A prominent supporter of same-sex blessings interviewed on BBC News with her same-sex partner was trainee priest Ruth Eleri James. Clearly she had not been properly briefed.
On BBCRadioWales (37 Mins in) she told the reporter of the "real love and welcome they have experienced in their local churches."
Replying to the debate bishop Gregory said his 'heart went out' to archdeacon Stephen and others who had been brave enough to 'open their hearts' in the debate. Brave enough to tell GB of the pain and the cost of what it is to live as a gay or lesbian Christian within our Church because of the unconscious bias and oppression that we unknowingly inflict upon them.
No evidence was presented to support bishop Gregory's assertion. Quite the contrary given the number of gay bishops, archdeacons and others who have made successful careers despite alleged bias and oppression.
Speaking after the debate the senior bishop Andy John urged the church to 'respond to new challenges'. He warned that organisations failing to adapt to changes ran the risk of "fossilization", ignoring the fact that Anglican provinces that had done most to conform to the world had rapidly declining attendance.
The 'church' bishop John refers to is not the Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. The Church rejects same-sex blessings along with the ordination of women but Wales is a minor province governed by bishops intent on moulding a compliant Governing Body to their will, leading their flock into darkness.
Going their own way by allowing same-sex blessings the Church in Wales has again put itself at odds not only with the vast majority of Christians but with most of the 80 million Anglicans worldwide, risking suspension from the Anglican Communion.
The Covid-19 pandemic has interrupted the annual update of regular church attendance figures but based on previous trends less than 0.8% of the population of Wales would regularly attend Anglican Sunday services.
In his keynote address as President of the Church’s Governing Body, its senior bishop Andy John urged the Church to look for God in the changing world and respond to new challenges. He warned that organisations failing to adapt to changes ran the risk of “fossilization”.
Speaking after the vote bishop Andy said that despite all the evidence to the contrary 'the Church' recognised it had "demonised and persecuted" gay and lesbian people. They were reaching out to a constituency that felt abandoned.
It has not bothered the bench one jot that another constituency, so-called traditionalists, have been abandoned despite the promise of twin integrities in the Church in Wales in its Code of Practice.
They may now be joined by evangelicals forced to "find accommodation as best they can" as a former LGBT+ supporting archdeacon of Llandaff directed.
The approval of same-sex blessings is based on the falsehood that gay and lesbian people have been demonised in the Church. Allowing same-sex blessings as a half measure to accepting same-sex marriage in church as an act of repentance.
No doubt some examples of hurt can be documented but in well over 100 years of combined church attendance neither my wife nor I can recall a single example of such rejection, only of welcome as described by Ruth Eleri James and her partner.
The fact is that claiming persecution is part of a strategy based upon "deceptions and half‑truths":
- Exploit the “victim” status;
- Use the sympathetic media;
- Confuse and neutralize the churches;
- Slander and stereotype Christians;
- Bait and switch (hide their true nature); and
- Intimidation.
The vote to accept same-sex blessings is based on a lie. Shame on the Church in Wales.
Postscripts
[08.09.2021]
How it looks from outside the Church in Wales.
Anglican Unscripted 684 starting at position 10.15. A devastating critique.
[11.09.2021]
CHURCH IN WALES BACKS THE BLESSING OF SAME-SEX MARRIAGES - C4M
[18.09.2021]
"It may not be an accident that this endorsing of the secular view of the priority and importance of sex and romantic relationships takes place in association with a culture which also attacked the core beliefs of Christianity." - What should we make of the Church in Wales' gay marriage blessings? Gavin Ashenden in Christian Today.
[21.09.2021]
"My experience of "synodality" in Anglicanism is that it was a ham fisted PR exercise in which the liberal elite imposed their will but made it look like their novelties were the will of the people." - Fr. Dwight Longenecker @dlongenecker1
[28.09.2021]
Reflections of an Anglican theologian: "The reason I want to comment is because what Cameron said at the meeting of the Governing Body provides a classic example of the weakness of the case for blessing same-sex relationships, and thus shows both why the Welsh church should not have voted to permit such blessings, and why the Church of England should not follow the Welsh example."
I accuse the Bishop of St Asaph, Osborne and Andy John of placing very great pressure upon me to drive me, an orthodox traditional Anglican, out of the Church in Wales, where I have long served, in order to exalt and praise practising homosexuals. How they can square this with New Testament teaching baffles me. Their thinking must be deeply flawed. I am so ashamed of the CinWs and of all the members of its governing body who voted in favour of this change.
ReplyDeleteAugustine
Bless you, I’m sure you’ll survive mate.
DeleteI do wonder whether we were listening to the same debate. I can't tell you how proud I am of the Church in Wales. Today, in a secular workplace, a number of people told me how pleased they were that the church had made this decision.
ReplyDeleteJoyabounds
Joyabounding, I cannot understand the source of your pride. This bill came from the very depths of hell itself, and is a cause of great amusement to Satan and his hordes. It pits Parish against Parish (one will offer it and the other will not); it pits priest against priest; it pits priest against his or her bishop; it pits the Welsh hirelings against other bishops; it pits the Church in Wales against the Anglican Communion. This is not a cause for pride; it is a cause for great shame. Clearly, you cannot connect the Gospel to everyday living. If you could, you would see the Lord weeping in the Garden of Gethsemane and praying, "I pray that they might one, Father: just as you and I are one, you in me and I in them, that they may be perfectly one." The gay lobby drowned out his voice for selfish gain, for once again, the Governing Body has voted for disunity, and the voice of the Lord goes unheard. Yes, the gay lobby have got their blessing; unfortunately, the death of the Church in Wales in now certain. Give it a few years and there will be no Church in Wales buildings left for them to have their blessings in. People should be very careful what they wish for - it may well turn out to be a curse. Just read the story of Balaam and Balak.
DeleteSeymour
At work today a number of my colleagues asked when the Church in Wales would formally seek to bless alcoholics.
DeletePostie
Seymour - you know none of it’s real, right?
DeleteI don't believe a word you say Joyabounds. Somewhat intrigued by your claim, I have asked several friends for news of any such comments made in their secular places of employment.
DeleteAnd guess what?
Not one of them confirms your story, in fact each and every one said they have never heard the Church even discussed in their workplaces.
Combined with the facts that only some 15,000 people across the entire principality bother attending the Church in Wales, plus the vast majority of them are retired senior citizens, I say you're full of swamp gas.
Same here @Joyabounds
DeleteI was telling my colleagues and they were all seriously impressed with the Church in Wales. They were shocked by this blog as well. It’s no wonder there hasn’t been an investigation into some of the comments on here, some of them tantamount to defamation. I’m sure there are people who would be able to work out who some of the posters are and expose them.
The debate was presented as an act of love towards homosexuals and lesbians. What some GB members may not have realised is that the passing of the Bill commits the Church in Wales to approving homosexual acts. I reject this and side with St Paul in Romans 1.
ReplyDeleteAugustine
The Bill provides for your rejection of homosexuals - you're free to continue your hate and disdain towards them. But the greater majority voted for love not hate, whilst accept that there would be some who would go on hating. Hope that clears that up for you Augustine.
DeleteJoyabounds
The "greater majority" couldn't give a monkey nut and don't have anything to do with the Church in Wales.
DeleteSomehow I doubt there'll be any news on the BBC covering the hordes of gays and lesbians dragging themselves across church thresholds next Sunday morning.
Hypocrisy, perverting scripture, virtue signalling and pandering to a tiny minority of deviants.
In response to pleasureabounding: you illustrate what AB described: you misrepresent and also claim victimhood. Boo hoo! Augustine
DeleteOpponents of the Bill do not hate homosexuals (how you falsely love to allege this); we are sorry for them, as we would be sorry for blind, deaf or lame people. But we cannot approve or condone their unnatural acts.
Augustine
Perverts, disabled, sorrow, unnatural ... says it all Augustine. Hateful language to describe a section of society long oppressed. Bishop June made a valid point about Alun Turning.
DeleteJoyandpleasureaboudinglovenothate
In response to Joyabounding.
DeleteTypical response from that side of the argument. I have seen more tolerance and understanding, not to mention Christian love and acceptance from the 'against' side of the debate than I have from the 'for'. Why must a small group continue to play the victim card when there is precious little evidence.
As for the well used phrase 'love is love' which seems to be the sound bite that has come from this debate, it has been so often used by individual attempting to excuse horrendous and illegal practices (I don't consider homosexual activity as such).
Where do we go next? 'Marriage' to trees happened in Bristol yesterday. Where does this nonsense stop?
Disgruntled Anglican
@Joyabounds
DeleteThat log in your eye is surely blinding you outright.
The opposite of love isn't hate at all.
The opposite of love is indifference.
For example, the indifference the plank sitters and Peggy the Pilate demonstrate for anyone who's sincerely held beliefs and convictions don't match their own.
@Ruth not sure you're at all correct - indifference is not an antonym of love - hate is. Simple English my dear.
DeleteDisgruntled Anglican
Ah, the old ‘slippery slope’ argument! What will it be next marrying a tree? Get a grip! You can’t marry a tree - it says so in the Bible!
DeleteOn a scale of 1 - 10, rate how wrong the following are, 10 being the most wrong:
DeleteFemale-female sex
Male-male
Where in the new testament did Jesus say you can't marry a tree?
DeleteIf you rearrange the letters, you’ll find it, without doubt!
DeleteWho the hell is Alun Turning?
DeleteThe lies that work are the ones that people want to believe. Playing to emotions creates the desire to believe. Those who toss out those parts of the Bible that logically go against their emotions are in the long run doomed to pursue heresy after heresy. A Church run by such fools is doomed as well.
ReplyDeleteAre you claiming to be orthodox then?
DeletePerhaps someone could explain the considerable number of "co-opted" members of GB present for this vote? The ones from my Diocese all voted for change - what a surprise.
ReplyDeleteIt’s just the way it is babe. Best prepare yourself for a bumpy ride.
DeleteYesterday's vote in the GB calls to my mind a dialogue which I had with my diocesan bishop in the aftermath of the English Angican general synod's decision to approve the ordination of women to the priesthood - I had been living and working in England for nearly a decade by the the time that occurred in the early 1990s.
ReplyDeleteI told him that, regretfully, I would be leaving the communion of the C of E in the light of the decision. He responded with a plea that, surely, we should prioritize finding a way in which we could somehow all remain one body in charity and mutual respect.
I said to him that his suggestion was for me wholly unfeasible in the context of what I believed. Because he was a leading conservative evangelical whose ecclesiology was likely to be rather different from my own, I suggested that instead he might consider the impact on his own convictions were the Church of England to decide to acknowledge same-sex intimate relationships between both clergy and laity, and, ultimately, validate them by making some sort of provision for their blessing by the rites of the church. Because, I suggested to him, that looked probable to me to be the next campaign likely to be instigated within Anglicanism. As now it's proved to be.
His reply struck me as rather feeble for a bishop of normally robust convictions: he said that he would find that wholly unacceptable, but he thought that, should it happen, he'd be safely retired by then!
I looked him up on the internet some time back, and discovered that he was still alive and an honorary assistant bishop in a different English diocese. He must be a considerable age by now. Today I'm wondering whether he's noticed this latest news from Wales, and what he thinks about it.
ReplyDeleteHow wicked the Governing Body has become. The devil seems to have gained as much control of its members as she has of what they call the ‘social media’! We all know where this ‘half-way’ house is going: we have seen the process so many times before. I cannot imagine what they are working towards (in the medium or long term) will really be ‘an honourable estate, instituted of God at the time of man’s innocency, signifying unto us the mystical union that is betwixt Christ and his Church.’
Perhaps the next sacrament to come under attack will be Viaticum. But they may not bother mount an assault there either because either they don’t know what it is in its proper context or because they have already diluted the rite of anointing with oil so much that it has become little more than a general congregational analgesic for the healing of pain caused through having wrong thoughts concerning gender equality. What chance the Maundy Thursday service will become the blessing of ‘The Oil of Placebo’?
Pegasus
Deleteinteresting how you use the words wicked and devil. As a teenager Gregorious dabbled in the dark arts such as ouija. Fifth columnist?
Cymraes yn Lloegr
Ah, another slippery sloper! Whatever next: the realisation that all religion is a manmade construct? Shocking!
DeletePleasureabounding or whatever/ It is a generous response to take an opponent's argument in the best, not the worst, sense. You continue to traduce us opponents of yesterday's measure. I fear you are guilty of a fundamental logical flaw: opposition , even strong opposition, is not identical with hatred - at least, only of the sin, not the person. So, it seems that you must either think more clearly, or more charitably, a quality whose absence you lament - again and again and again.
ReplyDeleteAugustine
I agree Augustine. I'm disgusted at the amount of vitriol on Twitter against those in opposition to the measure, nearly all in England, and many not even Anglican. The most disgusting comment was from a well known media Baptist, recommending drowning in the sea for opponents. He probably doesn't know, or conveniently ignores, what the 'religion of peace' does to homosexuals.
DeleteCymraes yn Lloegr
I shall refrain from traducing and apologise. Please may I ask that you not refer to homosexuals as sick, sinful or unnatural; it comes across as hateful. Perhaps we both of much to learn from one another. Peace and joy.
DeleteStilljoyabounding
Thank you for what you did apologise for. I do not recall using the word 'sick', however.
DeleteI do not hate gays; indeed I have occasionally worked well with one or two, although I loathe the militant ones. But do homosexual acts glorify God or fulfil his will? That is the divide.
Augustine
I’ve worked quite well with a couple of straights too. However, I can’t stand it when they rub their heterosexual lives in my face mind you - disgusting!
DeleteYour comment captures our disagreement in a nutshell. The trouble for you, Lordgrist, is that heterosexuality is God-ordained, part of the natural order. You may laugh at it - the divinely ordained norm - but you remain in a minority.
DeleteAugustine
Has god spoken to you then? Told you exactly what he approves of? What evidence have you got of that? Some old stories?
DeleteLordgrist,
DeleteYes, and he has spoken to you - through the natural order, and also through Scripture. Why don't you pursue truth through God's agencies? Why pretend we know nothing. We DO.
Augustine
Augustine
Why not admit we know nothing? Too scary? Your prejudiced views, veiled in apparent ‘sound theology’, are pushing people away from church, not drawing them closer. Shooting yourselves in the foot!
DeleteThe Church in Wales and Church of England have been pushing away crowds of people away for decades without any help from we traditionalists.
DeleteThe results are plain to see and speak for themselves.
The gay cabal are gleeful enough and revelling in their perceived victory but the pink £s won't be enough to keep the show on the road for much longer.
Your contribution provides an admirable illustration of why Newman opposed liberalism. Then you resort to ad hominem comments because you have been trounced by arguments based on Nature and Scripture. Your insults cannot hurt because they lack the ring of truth, Me, me, me; what an apposite pseudonym.
DeleteAugustine
Haha! I’d hardly call it trounced! 😂
DeleteYour prejudice can’t hurt me either, because I am free from the indoctrination which blinds you.
Clearly, I am wasting my time in reasoning with someone who does not respond to reason, but repeats addle-headed charges. I rest my case. You have been blown out of the water.
DeleteAugustine
Then have you clearly failed! Blown out of the water yourself! I would not call your approach ‘reason’, more fiction.
DeletePegasus, please don't give them ideas. The hirelings, who masquerade as bishops, demonstrated their utter incompetence yesterday for the world to watch. Andy Pandy sat there and allowed the gay lobby to applaud everyone who spoke in favour of the bill, and for those who advised caution, there was stony silence and passive aggression. This is what the plank of hirelings calls "having respect for each other's views". The Tree eater from St Asaph, who is now an expert on pornography, had the nerve to tell the Evangelicals that they would be welcome in the Church in Wales, on condition they danced to the hirelings' tune. In other words, they are about as welcome as a bacon sandwich at a bar mitzvah.
ReplyDeleteThis decision has now excommunicated those who cannot accept it in good conscience. How can we be in communion with those who have rejected Jesus' teaching and dethroned him? Jesus is no longer Lord in the Church in Wales. The hirelings have put pay to that. I would like to remind readers that if you cannot accept this bill, then you should not receive communion at all. Each parish priest is in communion with their bishop, and the congregation is in communion with the bishop through their parish priest. The bishops who voted for this bill are now apostates. They have rejected the Lordship of Christ and his teaching in favour of following the spirit of the Age. That's the reality. To receive communion within Wales is to give acceptance to this bill.
Seymour
I promise you’ll be ok Seymour. Have faith in Jesus’ teaching! Which, by the way, mentions nothing about homosexuality.
DeleteIn which case you will agree therefore that Jesus certainly did not promote homosexuality.
DeleteHe did however certainly promote the sacrament of marriage between one man and one woman.
Need I remind you of the occasion of the marriage feast at which he performed the first miracle of changing water into wine?
Perhaps your gay pride version of the story is that he changed the water into pink gin and rum pansies?
Sure, Jesus didn’t promote many things but we all probably do them. How about you C Groes? Any things you do which Jesus did not promote?
DeleteJesus couldn’t have changed water into wine. Need I remind you of…common sense?
Thanks so much for reminding me of that occasion though. Cheers 🥂
Yes.
DeleteTiddlywinks.
What's your point?
What’s your point??
DeletePP. The decision of the GB for the good or ill of the CiW, will eventually come to the surface as oil in water. What a to do? But, does this give reason for hurt, hate, degeneration on either side? Certainly not! The core question has to be "what would Jesus do?
ReplyDeleteOne of the comments in the whole debate, that certainly caused me some concern, was the naming and outing ( some of us genuinely did not know or, needed to know) of the late Archdeacon, at a GB with media coverage and many members being equally surprised at the statement. To do this was apporant,a breach of pastoral ethics, duty of care etc etc; as the grieving of her partner (if she was in a relationship), her close family,relatives, friends and colleagues' her sudden death is still very raw indeed. She will be greatly missed in both the Diocese and wider Church But, her legacy remains for all to see. You only have to read the many obituaries, tributes and comments across the wider Church and beyond.
Mentioning her mission role in Monmouth, and the care of her archdeaconry I have no issue. It is good to cite such achievements, blessings and care. This "tribute" alone could have been better used in the debate and much more sensitively without drawing out anything private and personal in life.I respect and know that it's use has caused hurt. The sledgehammer was not needed in this or any other part therein. The bull in a China shop springs to mind! Good old "sensitivity" is that so hard to muster?
We are frequently told "not to speak ill of the dead", unfortunately, this cruel use of orientation to "out", one who is with great respect, departed; to fuel such a toxic decision is beyond comprehension and not the becoming action of one so highly placed.
It seems we have allowed secular society to command Church decisions. This has been possible through compliant LGBT Bishops who have little about them spiritually and wilfully bend the idea of Christian love to justify homosexuality. The CinW loses the respect of traditionalists and of the public at large to which they pander. A black day for all concerned.
ReplyDeleteLW
@ LW
DeleteCertainly arguably a black day. But one which is hardly surprising.
It’s a fabulous day LW! Rejoice in the Lord, for he is a mighty fabrication!
Delete@ Marriage didn’t start with you…
DeleteI like the 'nom de plume' which, of course, is wholly true. Most sacraments are wholly and uniquely Christian, but matrimony of course isn't.
The Christian Faith was brought to the shores of Great Britain by those whose Faith was Roman Catholicanism. This Faith survived throughout the Kingdom until King Henry VIII had a disagreement with the Church of Rome. King Henry then Founded the Church of England. Over the Centuries there have been many divisions that have enabled various avenues of Faith to be established, this includes the Church in Wales. There are various Passages within the Bible, the Book the Christian Faith has at its Foundation that the LGBT or whatever the Community wish to call themselves do not agree with. Fine, no problem, Found yourselves a different name and discard the Passages of the Bible you do not like, but leave the Anglican Community. I have no problem with any Lesbian or Homosexual setting up a new Avenue of Faith so long as in doing so they Renounce their Orders within the Church in Wales and do not practice their "Faith" in a Church in Wales building
ReplyDeleteCan I correct your Church history, Quill Pen? Christianity was already on this island when St Augustine and his monks arrived from Rome in 597AD. St Alban was martyred in the third century; and he was martyred trying to save the life of a Christian priest. Augustine, when he learned that there were Christian bishops in Wales, decided to meet them at Aust, just over the Severn Bridge. Obviously, the Severn Bridge wasn't there! When the bishops arrived, Augustine refused to stand to greet them, and treated them as if they were subservient to him. The result was that the said bishops turned round and returned to Wales, and British Christianity, which some refer to as Celtic Christianity, ran alongside Roman Christianity until the Synod of Whitby in 664AD decided to adopt Roman practices and suppress British ones. The Celtic Church which covered Brittany, Cornwall, Wales, Ireland, the Isle of Man, Scotland and Northumbria nurtured the faith of people in these parts long before Pope Gregory ever dreamed of a Roman mission to Britain. We have long been fed the line that Christianity came with Augustine, but it not true.
DeleteSeymour
No surprises here, the Church in Wales has no comment to make over things that really matter in local communities but all the time in the world to discuss on all matters gay!
ReplyDeletehttps://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-58477967
Anglesey: Relatives' anger over church conversion plans
Although the church is now private property, the surrounding land where the graveyard is situated is available for the public to use and visit as it belongs to the Church in Wales.
But there are further fears the plans are not appropriate, councillor Aled Morris Jones says.
"I think the Church in Wales has many questions to answer and that there should be an inquiry into how they have sold this admittedly redundant church," he said.
"It is surrounded on all sides with graves and this graveyard is still in use for burials.
"People feel very upset, they are concerned. It's the process, the morality of doing such a thing."
Anglesey council said at the time of the application "the Church in Wales had no comments to make in the proposal".
Just called the bank to cancel my standing order to the Church in Wales. I hope others will also follow - hit them where it hurts - in the finances.
ReplyDeleteLloyd
All the best Lloyd. Sorry you felt the need to do that but hope you find a fellowship where (a) you feel at home (b) you feel you can give sacrificially from your bank account (c) you are able to isolate yourself from the gay community. Not worth consider the RC church - much the same as us. What about the Westborough Baptists? Start your own branch and make your own placards. How much did you give by the way? I'd be willing to raise my own diving to compensate for the loss. We talking much?
DeleteCB
My giving to the swamp stopped almost a decade ago and I have been urging such action since that time Lloyd so good for you.
DeleteHere's hoping a few thousand more follow your example.
I'd say tens of thousands but after Covid I seriously doubt there's more than fifteen thousand regular Sunday worshippers left.
Interesting comments CB. Thanks for the tip on the Westboro baptists, but its too far to travel to on a Sunday. I only gave £100 per month so you should be able to cover the gap.
DeleteLloyd
That's fine - I am in the habit of tithing my income at 10%, an extra £100 will be easily absorbed in the month. Might have to have one less take-away a month! No hardship.
DeleteCB
Well done Church in Wales! About time! One step closer to us ‘queer’ folk ruling the church…forever! We’re so evil!
ReplyDeleteThen it will be Adrian Clary or Ru Paul as the next Bishop of Swansea & Brecon.
DeleteNow, that would liven things up a bit.
DeleteThe crazy thing is that the bishops claim this decision is missional. All statistics show that liberal, heterodox denominations have plummeted. Will the last one out the door please turn the lights off.
ReplyDeleteWhamab
Anyone here actually heard or read Bishop Gregory’s speeches? No evidence of engagement with the argument presented. Splenetic outpourings not quite the same thing.
ReplyDeleteYeah, they were amazing hun.
DeleteAppears I've proliferated. And I never noticed ...
DeleteWhat did Jesus say about cloning? Or should that be clowning?
DeleteThe church should forbid cloning. Even though Jesus didn’t say anything about cloning, nor has he returned to Earth to comment on it, the church can make up its rules to suit its beliefs.
DeleteIf the Church forbade cloning then one imagines it should also ban IVF and surrogacy.
DeleteSince the natural order of God's creation (ie, evolution) prevents homisexuals breeding and thus demonstrating homosexuality to be an evolutionary dead end, I doubt the recent abundance of new gay contributors will agree with you. One could be forgiven for thinking they've been breeding.
Should we allow straight people to marry if they cannot produce children, or choose not to? It’s an evolutionary dead end - might as well not be alive! Yes, banish all who cannot produce offspring!
DeleteBut banishing traditionalists from the Church is fine, right?
DeleteAla Peggy the Pilate and the coven.
On the contrary ‘oh the irony’ - keep your enemies closer!
DeleteHow's that working out for you then?
DeleteAs the attendance numbers continue to plummet it's patently obvious that the traditionalists are going and the gays aren't signing up.
The £10 million blown by Andy Pandy, the 2020 vision, Caiaphas' expensive jolly to Spain, the year of pilgrimage, seven sacred spaces, Llandaff 900, the 'sneak-a-peek' farce, the rainbow tent, the big screens and projectors, the smoke and bubble making machines, priestesses, the liturgical dances, the shite rite, banning intinction, Bishopesses, making the Choir redundant, misery areas, transgender Canons......
Barry Morgan's legacy, the gift that just keeps on giving.
Get a grip Gabriel - throwing your toys out of the pram!
DeleteIt's neither my pram nor my toys, just stating the bloody obvious as whatever the plank sitters have come up with this century, the situation continues to deteriorate and the Church in Wales implodes.
DeleteHyperbollocths!
DeleteYou're the expert there Andrew.
DeleteDoes anyone here follow the Bible to the letter? If not, why not?
ReplyDeleteThe bible isn't a script to be followed.
DeleteExcept, arguably, if you're a conservative evangelical of some variety.
This comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteThe bible isn't a script to be followed - which, indeed, would take some doing if anyone were to try.
ReplyDeleteAs instanced by, say, both strict conservative evangelical Calvinists and by Jehovah's Witnesses, who both attempt that strategy and yet come to substantially divergent conclusions as a consequence.
Jehovah's witnesses and Calvinists are not welcome in the Church of Wales, but other minority groups can now have their own blessing services.
DeleteIt is such a pity that a gay contributor who calls himself 'Me, me me' above has lowered the standard of debate in this serious matter. Just to practise name calling is abjectly to fail to meet substantial arguments. As has been pointed out, to disagree rationally on a matter of principle is not the equivalent of hating or of being prejudiced. Such flippant cat calling is very regrettable, and does nothing to forward the same-sex blessing argument. Indeed, it is also extremely puerile.
ReplyDeleteFellow gays must be ashamed of him.
Dom
No, the fellow gays probably won’t even pay attention. Do you not know the meaning of cat calling?
DeleteI hope you call out all the other name callers who comment on this blog, Dom.
DeleteWhy the CinW courts the very small gay lobby while sidelining long-serving and long-giving members who think marriage is between a man and a woman, is beyond comprehension. Let's see if the LGBTs including the Bishops are sufficiently financially generous to make up the shortfall from people like me who no longer, in conscience, can give them a penny.
DeleteLW
Hear hear.
DeleteLong-serving, long-living, long in the tooth!
DeleteAnd long gone!
DeleteYes, raise your game. Debate the issues, if you can. The arguments have all disappeared. All that is left, seemingly, is insults, most of them inapplicable and false assumptions about another's character.
ReplyDeleteWhy is it that the contributions from gays on this subject have been so lamentably low?
Rob
It's impossible to have any meaningful or rational debate with the likes of "me me me" because when they don't win the debate or don't get their way, the bitching begins in earnest.
DeleteI clearly remember the vile abuse to which +Roy Llandaff was subjected after one GB result and it became increasingly vitriolic until he caved in under the pressure and "changed his mind".
Not one of my gay and lesbian friends want anything to do with the church which is a fair reflection of 99.9% of the Welsh population.
As one suggested to me after seeing this thread, "I don't know why they're all so angry, gay or straight they're arguing over their invisible imaginary friend."
Exactly, that’s what I feel too Mr Sums it all up!
DeleteBy the way…my intention isn’t to have a meaningful or rational debate, in case that wasn’t obvious.
Are you on drugs?
DeleteDom
Yep - sertraline and omeprazole. How about you love?
DeleteIt’s disgraceful. Are gay minds weaker in respect of logic?
DeleteI can only suppose that AB gives nutters airtime so that they hoist thenselves with their own petards.
ReplyDelete1552
Thenselves…
Delete2062
Precisely 1552.
DeleteI’m sure they’re utterly embarrassed by their behaviour.
DeleteThe "gay pride" shower don't seem to be ashamed of anything.
DeleteThat's all very well AB, but why provide such morons with a platform?
DeleteOne fears your blog has been invaded by trolls rather than anyone who might wish to engage in a sensible and meaningful discussion of opposing views AB.
ReplyDeleteA little cull might be in order.
What would a reasoned opposing viewpoint look like to you? Perhaps you could demonstrate.
DeleteFeel free to read my contributions over the last decade.
DeletePray tell, what have you contributed to the debate?
Quite a lot if you can be bothered to think.
DeleteReally?
DeleteHow peculiar.
Never heard of you before today!
Lol
DeleteNever heard of you before today.
No, but will you will have heard from us.
DeleteI call bullshit. 😂
Delete🥰
DeleteBullying Bishop gets the heave ho.
ReplyDeleteHey ho!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-58531131
Scotland today.
St Davids tomorrow.
One can but hope LeV.
DeleteI hadn't heard of the problems in Aberdeen & the Orkneys until I read your post, so chased it up on the net.
DeleteWholly depressing, but sadly indicative of the current utter malaise within Anglicanism. Fifty years ago I'd never have dreamed that things Anglican could ever sink to this, assuming matters have been accurately represented.
It's all too familiar and all so depressing, especially to those of us who stayed on and have been fighting a rearguard action for all those decades.
DeleteI see nothing but imminent collapse ahead and the sooner the better.
The swamp continues to grow.
PP. Hope is all we have, the mood was cast in the retirement of Winchester early in 2021, now Aberdeen The mood music is playing a swan song for St D, the situation is untenable. If the Bishop of Aberdeen & Orkney, stands down the dye is cast. Therefore, our lead bishop, has to order/advise St David's to also do the decent thing. The wider Anglican community is seething from the Welsh move on same sex blessings, bold yet, decisive. The ongoing case if +Jo and the rediculous ongoing Capon saga does nothing to show a credible church.
ReplyDeleteI would guess that Welsh bishops will have hard time at the Lambeth conference if invited.
The who picture on the ministry and conduct of women bishops is revealing women who are on a power trip, I've encountered women as executives, and some are toxic bullies others are professional taking everyone with them in the vision.
So, similar traits seem to be revealed in some women who take in purple. But, in some we see exceptions, excellent leadership and much more. I have no issue with a women in the role, but like men in post, can be bullies. Perhaps like most NGO, Emergency services leaders, candidates are psychologically profiled, that should happen in the Church.
In Wales the election process is not fit for purpose, it is too secretive and out dated. The who process needs to be transparent, minutes made available, with redaction if needed. The vacancy diocese should at least as the family of God in the see, need to see, here and know the name and bio information for all candidates. Because the secretive process is not working for a process that has lost the necessary discernment. That is clearly transparent.