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| Ven Cherry Vann, bishop elect of Monmouth Source: Church in Wales |
From a Diocese of Monmouth job advert appearing in the Church Times:
"Do you want local churches to flourish?
"Monmouth Ministry Area is looking for 2 Ministry Area Leaders to share Ministry Area Leadership for the whole area and each to be incumbent of a group of parishes within it. One incumbency has a more urban base.
"The whole area has18 churches (6 looked after by House for Duty priests) A team of 13 active retired priests and a Reader Focal Ministers in most churches."
"The whole area has18 churches (6 looked after by House for Duty priests) A team of 13 active retired priests and a Reader Focal Ministers in most churches."
There are some sad average Sunday attendance figures in the Monmouth Ministry Area Profile which no doubt account for the advert headline. Granted they serve many small rural communities but with ageing congregations it is difficult to see how these churches are to flourish.
The average Sunday attendance figures are:
The average Sunday attendance figures are:
The Monmouth Town Group: Mitchel Troy 18, Monmouth Priory Church 51, Overmonnow 46, Rockfield 8, Wonastow 6.
The Monmouth Rural Group: Cwmcarvan 3, Dingestow 9, Llanfihangel Ystern-Llewen 12, Llangattock-Vibon-Abel 12, Penyclawdd 10, Tregaer 8.
The Llanishen Group: Llanfihangel Tor-y-mynydd 15, Llanishen 5, Llansoy 7, Trelleck Grange 5.
The Llandogo and Tintern Group: Llandogo with Whitebrook 42, Tintern 7 (Estimated)
The problem extends beyond the Church in Wales. The Mail Online reports that a typical Anglican congregation in England numbered just 27 worshippers last year. "Over a decade congregations fell by 15 per cent, church marriages by a third, and fewer than one in ten babies were baptised."
Churchgoing is becoming increasingly unpopular. Why?
Responding (@18.27) to a LBC questioner in my previous entry Justin Welby said he was "deeply, deeply sorry" that "the Church has historically been deeply intolerant, with society as a whole, but the Church has no excuse. Jesus said to someone caught, someone dragged up in front of Him, 'those without sin cast the first stone' and we shouldn't be throwing stones" as if to imply that Jesus condoned sin.
The Christian message would have been much clearer if Welby had quoted Jesus when asked by the woman caught in adultery: "Has no one condemned you?” “No one, Lord,” she answered. “Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Now go and sin no more.”
Biblical teaching has become so selective that for many people sin has been abolished so there is no need for redemption.
Welby also said: "People have to realise the reality of people's lives. The reason he is a Christian is because God came into the middle of the complexity, he didn't simplify it, he embraced it. It's what we need to do".
Hate the sin but love the sinner has become love the sinner so never mind the sin implying that Christ died on the Cross in vain.
Churches cannot be expected to flourish by surrendering the faith of Christ crucified to a 'do-as-you-please' society.
The Llanishen Group: Llanfihangel Tor-y-mynydd 15, Llanishen 5, Llansoy 7, Trelleck Grange 5.
The Llandogo and Tintern Group: Llandogo with Whitebrook 42, Tintern 7 (Estimated)
The problem extends beyond the Church in Wales. The Mail Online reports that a typical Anglican congregation in England numbered just 27 worshippers last year. "Over a decade congregations fell by 15 per cent, church marriages by a third, and fewer than one in ten babies were baptised."
Churchgoing is becoming increasingly unpopular. Why?
Responding (@18.27) to a LBC questioner in my previous entry Justin Welby said he was "deeply, deeply sorry" that "the Church has historically been deeply intolerant, with society as a whole, but the Church has no excuse. Jesus said to someone caught, someone dragged up in front of Him, 'those without sin cast the first stone' and we shouldn't be throwing stones" as if to imply that Jesus condoned sin.
The Christian message would have been much clearer if Welby had quoted Jesus when asked by the woman caught in adultery: "Has no one condemned you?” “No one, Lord,” she answered. “Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Now go and sin no more.”
Biblical teaching has become so selective that for many people sin has been abolished so there is no need for redemption.
Welby also said: "People have to realise the reality of people's lives. The reason he is a Christian is because God came into the middle of the complexity, he didn't simplify it, he embraced it. It's what we need to do".
Hate the sin but love the sinner has become love the sinner so never mind the sin implying that Christ died on the Cross in vain.
Churches cannot be expected to flourish by surrendering the faith of Christ crucified to a 'do-as-you-please' society.
Well said, AB. If the liberal brigade actually talked to people in the street, they would discover that, in the main, people do not expect the Church to overturn 2000 years of Christian teaching. Because we have a false gospel being preached by leftie bishops, people are becoming confused. The result is that rather than being left confused, they walk away.
ReplyDeleteSeymour
PP. It's a very said indictment of how far the Church has fallen out of favour. When you read the figures you could wonder how viable some are. Ut even more startling is the figure for the Priory at the heart of Monmouth, the town being one of wealth and growth, in affluent living.
ReplyDeleteBut, if the CiW decides to close one or more of the churches, there would be huge outcry. Which basically puts the Church not at the heart of sacred worship, but one of historic significance, but such a magnet for the wedding photos.
The new Bishop will have a huge series of decisions to there future as the church seeks some form of mission.
When Rowan arrived he had similar decisions, and one can still find derelict churches that one due the masses and housing developments that sit on former churches.
But how can sustainability be effective?
AB another fine thought provoking article.
The title 'Church of England' contains two - supposedly! - complementary concepts, the first being 'Church' and the second being 'England'. It's long seemed to me to be the case that when a possible conflict arises between 'Church' and 'England', in the C of E 'England' tends to prevail. To set it forth more plainly, being in tune with 'England' ultimately counts for more than being in tune with 'Church'. Perhaps Henry VIII, when he made the Church the English state's first 'nationalized industry', wouldn't have been wholly dissatisfied with that! And despite a near-century of disestablishment, I see no evident sign that the situation is in any way significantly different in Wales.
ReplyDeleteAnd yet it's all too plain that, while most of the early Church functioned, quite necessarily, as 'the Church in the imperial Roman empire', the Church in those days usually managed - in spite of the efforts of certain emperors and their bureaucrats! - to prioritize 'being the Church' over 'being imperial Roman', and the very fact that the Church did that was central to its ultimate success in winning the imperial establishment to the cause of Christ. At the heart of the Church's creed, back then, was the conviction that 'we have not here an abiding city, but we seek after the city which is to come'.
In contemporary British Anglicanism I simply don't see signs that the same is true.
This "Mystery Worshipper" report may provide some food for thought, especially the comments at the end: https://shipoffools.com/mystery-worshipper/st-pauls-deptford-london/. I come from a very different tradition yet find it fascinating.
ReplyDeleteThe Statistics for Mission just published by the Church of England tell a depressingly predictable story of how decline continues apace when the Church is only talking to the Church. See https://www.churchofengland.org/sites/default/files/2019-10/2018StatisticsForMission_0.pdf
ReplyDeleteDespite the introductory spin, there has been a 2.6% overall decline during the previous 12 months. Over 80% of those attending courses and events designed for the 'unchurched' were existing churchgoers.
There are only three types of church that are experiencing significant growth:
(a) those in areas of high migration (in CofE terms that has been the Diocese of London, which is now showing a sharp downturn, partly due to the hostile climate after the Brexit referendum; and the Diocese of Europe that has seen its numbers rise year-on-year for over a decade and more, first under a traditionalist Catholic bishop and now under a more 'open' Evangelical);
(b) cathedrals (up 35% over the past decade), as good quality worship and music, plus a high standard of preaching and much less of the 'club' mentality of parish churches is proving attractive, especially to the under 40s. A similar story is emerging in university college chapels in Oxbridge, Durham, London and other Russell Group institutions that offer distinctive choral worship, where numbers have risen even higher than cathedrals relative to the population of the institution;
(c) charismatic Evangelical churches (more modest growth of around 12% over the past decade). Like cathedrals they offer an 'experience' - and are good at catering for single young professionals looking for God, soft rock music and a life-partner. The fall-out rate is high, though, especially when people fall victim to so-called 'heavy shepherding' or begin to question the formulaic approach to scripture and ethics.
My impression (supported by the statistics) is that Welsh cathedrals are not mirroring the same growth as their English counterparts. Others will be better informed than me about why this is.
Also, it is becoming apparent that 'bog standard' parish churches are becoming more (not less) insular as they shrink in size. There is too much of a defeated remnant syndrome coupled to an antipathy to new people and new insights. This is aided and abetted by a growing cohort of clergy who are much less theologically literate than they once were, who are not confident (or equipped) to make connections with wider culture without being (how can I put it...?) painfully naff. This is why, I fear, somewhere like St John the Baptist in the centre of Cardiff or St Mary's, Swansea, is unlikely to have the pulling power of the university churches in Oxford and Cambridge for example, or places like St Matthew's, Westminster, where Catholic worship attracts a significantly younger congregation. At one time, I believe, that could have been said of St Luke's, Canton. But alas no more. However, I believe St Martin's, Roath is bucking the trend with its Catholic worship, good music and an imaginative approach to teaching the faith with intelligence and sensitivity to its context.
No 'big fix' in all this, but it may provide some background to why the job adverts from Monmouth, like the tourist seeking directions in Ireland, may be starting from the wrong place.
Cathedrals are also popular with people who want to remain 'anonymous' - to sneak in at the back for the service without being forced to talk to someone or have someone sit next to them and help them through the book.
DeleteIt is true to say that a small parish church - perhaps with a female vicar - with a mainly female congregation will never attract men. I shudder to think what the attendance figures are for such places and how much money they are losing each week. I have long thought that the future is in district churches with large congregations where people can attend anonymously if they wish or instead become more involved. The Cathedrals and the big evangelical churches are successful because they have this model. Each area needs to identify its 'cathedral' and - unless they are particularly beautiful- close the others.
DeleteLW
There's certainly no growth in Llandaff Cathedral.
DeleteThings are so bad that under the dud in the Deanery the Communicant numbers have not been published for several years in a futile attempt to conceal the decline under his bungling mismanagement.
But those in the know still know.
Thank you for these very helpful insights which I think are broadly true of most denominations (although they may not have cathedrals!)
ReplyDeleteI think there's also a sense in which many folk, especially singles and young families, are drawn to, and prepared to travel to, large and "thriving" churches which offer all sorts of activities rather than persevering with their ordinary-seeming local church. While I can understand this, I think it may well indicate a "consumer" mentality among many Christians (i.e. "What has this church got for me?" rather than "What could I do for this church?") although it may also indicate how poor many local churches are in welcoming, using and listening to newcomers. Sadly though that trend means that we will end up with a situation where many communities will be left without any church or Christian witness, while Christians enjoy themselves at the ecclesiastical superstore miles away.
I have read other statistics which suggest that theology and churchmanship are far less significant factors for church growth than professionalism in the worship, openness to new ideas, a genuine welcome, a communal vision and sense of purpose etc. But I think the key point is what was said at the top of the last post: "Decline continues apace when the Church is only talking to the Church".
People drive miles to a supermarket, optician or sports centre. Why do we try to keep these Victorian edifices open, with poor facilities, little heating and light, and hymns that sometimes could be rousing if sung by more than six but are usually dreary.
DeleteSell them all off and build one new church in each mission area, with toilets and a car park and central heating - and have lively services that involve real worship instead of mumbling through some ancient liturgy that was old-fashioned 100 years ago!
And how about clergy visiting the sick and elderly during the week instead of swanning around the cathedral trying to look important
Two quick thoughts.
Delete1. Yes, people drive miles to supermarkets etc. ... and then we complain that villages have no facilities, that community spirit is lost, that no-one knows each other any more. And there are lots of people who cannot drive and have to (expensively) rely on taxis or (embarrassingly) on friends and neighbours.
2. For better or for worse, the CinW (more so than other denominations in Wales) is the custodian of ancient buildings which, the State has decreed, must be looked after. This is often a huge burden and makes mission impossible as all the time and resources of the congregation are tied up in - literally - keeping the roof on. Our nation needs to make a decision: if it wants these buildings to survive it needs to fund them properly or (as with the RC Church in France) turn them over to the State and then let the Church use them.
PP. I whole heartedly agree with the last two postings. The theological standing is lacking as is professionalism. Perhaps there is a need for more learning on modern worship techniques. Perhaps the new Bishop will bring some measure to this troubled diocese.
ReplyDeleteThen looking at projects like Fresh Expressions, and other incentives working ecuminically might be options. But alas the change has to happen one way or another.
More fifth columnists attempting to hijack this site!
ReplyDeleteBob
Bob - I worry about you. This blog is not a battlefield (though some treat it as if it were). No blog should be a battlefield. A blog is somewhere an author can express their opinion. Once the blog has been posted it is open to comment from ALL parties. Not just the ones that author likes, or you like. This, my friend, is the beauty of free speech. This is how the blogasphere works. It is not, as you suggest, one group pitted against another group who you perceive are trying to undermine the content of the blog. I often disagree with AB - but I respect it is his right to post blogs. Take a moment, breathe deeply, relax, and move on. It is after all just a blog. LS.
ReplyDeleteIndeed so. And those of us who disagree with AB - often strongly! - don't regard ourselves as "fifth columnists" who are trying to "hijack" anything. We're simply trying to present alternative views, hopefully in a constructive and helpful way. I'm pretty sure that all of us, irrespective of our churchmanship and theological position, care deeply about Christ and the Gospel; and we desperately want the Church to flourish in what seems to be the barren and infertile soil of modern Britain.
DeleteThose of us who are old hands at this blog are fully aware of Rob's rather gauche contributions, especially when he reads something with which he disagrees; or when someone is trying to present a balanced view of a situation. But that's the strength of this blog. It is a forum for all shades of opinion: from the wise and well-informed; to the irrational and boorish. Unlike the current (and recent) leadership of the Church in Wales, it doesn't attempt to censor contradictory voices. Long may it continue - and continue to hold the hierarchy to account.
DeleteWhat would the CinWs theological liberals most wish on this site? Dissension and disagreement among the contributors. There appears to have been a noticeable departure from the traditionalist line recently. Nothing to do with those of you who deny being a part of this, of course. Or is it?
ReplyDeleteBob
I hate to wade into this minor skirmish, and AB's clear commitment to a generous Anglicanism that allows all shades of opinion to be aired (a position not matched by the C in W hierarchy, I am sad to note). Nonetheless, our dear friend Bob seems not to have yet encountered that part of the Rule of St Benedict (hardly a manifesto for theological liberalism, I submit) that tells us that our most effective teachers are those whom we find least agreeable or likeable. It's an insight worth pondering.
ReplyDeleteA blog that is ideologically policed to the degree that all contributions must meet one person's criteria would, surely, be nothing more than a mirror image of the Putinesque era of illiberal liberalism that plagued Barry Morgan's tenure in Llandaff.
Does that make four or five rogue plants on the blog? It's strange how the line adopted in comments suddenly changed!
ReplyDeleteBob
Carry on carping, Bob. You're doing a great job. There's no need for any of us to add to the 'dissension and disagreement.' You're doing that all by yourself - whilst also trying to close down reasonable debate. You certainly offer a sharply contrasting voice to the persuasive gentleness of contributors like Athelstan (above). May be it's you who is the real Fifth Columnist? I don't suppose your real name is Barry Cennydd Morgan by any chance?
ReplyDeleteOh, the secret's out. Or is it?
ReplyDeleteBob
P.S. The slant of the posts has changed recently, for all that.
I recall, long ago and as a consequence of studying church history in the context of my degree course, arguing that a classic format - indeed, arguably the prevalent one! - for conduct of ecclesiastical controversy is to gather with other folk of your own theological persuasion and then to shout, from a distance, at those who think otherwise. That method of 'doing dispute' in the Church has a very long pedigree - you can readily read of evident instances of it as early as the fifth century AD, if not before!
DeleteI just wonder how productive it is. You don't have to win over the hearts and minds of those who already think as you do, because they DO already think as you think. It's those who differ from you that you need to convince. And how can you hope to do that if you confine yourself to talking to the identically-minded?
A blog such as this one has the potential to debate ideas, offer new insights and - ultimately and if only now and then! - actually change minds to some degree. If it restricts itself to mutual reinforcement, isn't it missing an opportunity?