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| Archbishop high fiving Source: HOLYWELLCOMMUNITY Former Bishop of Monmouth high fiving Source: Church in Wales |
Following the announcement of the retirement of the Bishop of Monmouth, the Rt Revd Richard Pain, oversight of the mission and ministry of the Diocese continues under the Archbishop of Wales, the Most Revd John Davies, who appears keen to continue where the former bishop left off.
Whilst the Peace is not universally popular it is to be hoped that an already impoverished liturgy is not going to include the 'high five' as a sign of getting along to get on.
Postscript [23.06.2019]
This statement by the Archbishop of Wales should put an end to the rumours and misinformation that have been circulating during the bishop's absence.
STATEMENT BY THE ARCHBISHOP OF WALES AT A MEETING OF CLERGY OF THE DIOCESE OF MONMOUTH - 5TH JUNE 2019
Postscript [23.06.2019]
This statement by the Archbishop of Wales should put an end to the rumours and misinformation that have been circulating during the bishop's absence.
STATEMENT BY THE ARCHBISHOP OF WALES AT A MEETING OF CLERGY OF THE DIOCESE OF MONMOUTH - 5TH JUNE 2019
And who is the cleric pictured above the bishop's head !!!!!! ?
ReplyDeletePP. What a huge mitre
ReplyDeleteAB...since when do you purport to be an expert in liturgy? Read the threads of these blogs leads me to conclude there is no basis for such a claim, therefore please refrain from commenting on such matters in the future. When were you last in a class of children to share something of the faith? Again...you have no clue...yet you feel at liberty to comment...please DON'T. La Sophia
ReplyDeleteLa Sophia,
ReplyDeleteSo maybe you are an expert on the Liturgy? I think you will find A/B extremely well qualified to make his comments. If you do not like the comments here I suggest you go elsewhere.
Catnap
Seconded.
DeleteAnd if you don't like it, tough!
Catnap...I maintain that AB knows about as much as the local village yokel when it comes to liturgy...this is a position you also qualify for...blogs are the place of disagreement...perhaps it is you who should leave if people who offend you upset you so...you're not a snowflake are you?
ReplyDeleteComment to Catnap from La Sophie.
ReplyDeleteMy rudimentary Greek would suggest that Sophia means wisdom; however La Sophia's comments are at best vacuous. In order to assess the pedagogical effectiveness of a teacher, it would be prudent to elicit the views of students. To assert that pedagogy is in the domain of the teacher only would be rightly regraded as inane. Similarly, to assert that liturgy and its impact is in the gift of a qualified priest/"priestess" is equally inane. Furthermore, the Liturgy is not merely delivered by a "qualified" priest it is experienced and shared by the entire Liturgical Community (or ekklesia to be precise). Perhaps, you may wish to consider a more considered and intellectual approach before displaying such a breath-taking level of ignorance.
ReplyDeleteIn terms of expertise, I was witness to a current member of the Bench of Bishops who a number of years ago (whilst not a "Bishop" at the time) changed the position of the epiclesis in the Eucharistic Prayer because they believed it was in the incorrect position. Sadly, it was in the position that the Orthodox Church has expounded for the last 2000 years (that is, the epiclesis is not separated from the anamnesis). So much for clerical expertise. Of course this is a breach of Canon Law pertaining to the Liturgy (or Letourgia to be precise). But what should I know - I am only laity.
A candid friend of Christianity (CFoC).
While respecting that liturgy ought to be done well, I really can't see that the Church's effectiveness in mission to unchurched people is going to be affected by the position of the epiclesis in a Communion service! IMHO there are much more important things to be concerned about.
DeleteThe Chruch's effectiveness (or otherwise) should definitely be a matter of considerable concern when it is obvious that Clerical lack of expertise, personal agendas, incompetence and/or downright nastiness are un-churching faithful traditionalists with 50, 60, 70 or even 80+ years of loyalty, contributions, experience and knowledge.
DeleteCAndid Friend of Christianity...your grasp of all things liturgical is equally as washy washy...no real depth..as for breath taking ignorance...I think the same can be applied to you...you attempt to sound like you know what you're talking about whilst spouting spaffle is quite incredulous..logo and bore someone else...la Sophia
ReplyDeleteDear Sophia (or should I say Saklas - this seems far more apposite) - is this the best you can offer? Hardly an academic argument. Please feel free to degenerate into personal invective - I am delighted that you highlight the somewhat rustic and doltish nature of your insights. However, I am enormously grateful to you for removing the speck from eye - such an edifying process. "logo and bore someone else" - what a fine grasp of the English language! Such academic and linguistic mediocrity leads me to believe that you must be an "expert" cleric on the liturgy. CFoC.
DeleteI do NOT claim to be an expert...but my understanding has greater depth than what a one time may or may not have done however long ago...I appreciate it may come as shock, but you armchair attempts at theology have been exposed for what they are.As for you...slacker is a more appropriate reference..or a crap friend of Christianity. Is Sophia.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteOh dear, this is all getting fractious and personal …. PERLEEASE!!! - let's face it, 'liturgy' is the 'work of the people' and 'the people' need to feel comfortable with the words and gestures and fed spiritually by the whole experience … I'm not sure how many primary school children shake hands as a greeting (0% as a guess!), but many will 'high five' … I wouldn't want to do this in Sunday worship, but within the school context it would seem to me to make a lot of sense … I remember Richard Giles recounting how in his first parish there was a sign at the back of church saying 'The Peace is NOT shared on this church' … thank goodness, we have moved on from this to appreciate more that worship is a COLLECTIVE and SHARED experience … hence Anglican clerics cannot have their own 'personal' Eucharist … the whole experience needs to be COMMUNAL and we need to find ways to make that experience REAL to the post-church generations … however distasteful that may seem to those who find real spiritual food in traditional liturgy … it is not about 'supplanting' what we have but rather 'helping it make sense' to those who, for whatever reasons, have been left adrift on a spiritual sea without any idea of how to navigate life's storms and squalls (AintGoneYet)
ReplyDeleteAnonymous: encouraging high fiving in school? Yes, too many trendy clerics and pc heads would use this West Indian import. If you cannot see that this vulgarizes British culture, there is no more to be said.
ReplyDeleteRob
PP. Lighting the mood. The new headgear for Notre Dame clergy is fetching. Could it be adapted for CinW, at least it's gender nutral
ReplyDeletehttps://lm.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DlJLFNl1WTJE%26fbclid%3DIwAR36hUgySshN8eQNrXDOZnLe-I-YLJGNZBTf1L6cMldQDMCYo2qxJzi3Vl4&h=AT0D529qPjfPzZxdHE_GnbsgLRRkA8gGuNF1OoYGTK0WDrmwdnEM5UvjbR_tr0tGW6uHN8jZancxlrDoUeg4xUlg8EepwHmrL4ejMwmNa0vXoUSWVV0FNwFQ-FkXN5VwZEL-sVL5hT7I5muyYwlSN3bILQ
Where the Baptist Union of Wales has led, the Church In Wales is right behind it.
ReplyDeleteTerminal decline.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-48639368
"Cwm is a Baptist chapel and figures from the Baptist Union of Wales show that in 1960 there 70,282 members. By 2000 that number had dropped to 20,872 and last year, there were just 9,447 people on the membership list."
As it happens, I've just come back from a BUW Assembly and the denomination is well aware of the decline. Of course Baptists are congregational which means that, although there is some good mission-focussed leadership "at the top", it can only ever be advisory - individual churches have to make their own decisions. Many chapels are struggling or closing, often in my view because they have lost touch with their communities and are perpetuating a way of doing things that fails to "scratch where people are itching". But others are thriving and even growing - it's an uneven picture. As it happens I am not a member of the BUW but (confusingly) of the South Wales Baptist Association. Here too the picture is mixed although there seem to be fewer just-surviving chapels. By the way, Baptist church membership figures can be misleading: on the one hand there are many regular worshippers who have never become signed-up members (especially true of younger people); conversely there may be older members who are now unable to attend church.
DeleteWhat then, one wonders, is the point of keeping a record of numbers at all.
DeleteLlandaff Cathedral no longer publishes Communicant numbers as a futile means of trying to conceal the decline.
Baptists do recognise the difficulty of producing statistics, so in their annual returns churches are also asked to give an estimate of attendance at services, together with numbers of children and young people. At least one can get an idea of the way things are going!
DeleteThe objectivity and accuracy of which would not go amiss at both the Diane Abbott school of Numeracy and the Peggy the Pilate school of accountancy!
DeletePossibly ... but one does at least try to get a result which means something!
DeleteThe picture on the left should be seen in its proper context. Have a read of the Holywell Community blog. It is uplifting. The Holywell Community in Abergavenny is an excellent example of young people engaging in the worship and missionary work of the Church. Bishop Richard has been a great encourager of the Community. More recently the archbishop has visited the Community and continued with the enthusiasm, illustrated by his enthusiastic interaction with one of its members. Being a member of the Community has led one young man to be ordained this month and one young lady to join the Ty Mawr convent. Just imagine if a Holywell Community was planted in any number of parish churches in the Church in Wales, what an impact that would have. A high five from the archbishop is small beer in this context.
ReplyDeleteCymraes yn Lloegr
If the Holywell Community is doing so well on Caiaphas' doorstep in Abergavenny, why she has ignored them and chosen instead to offer £200,000 to attract Holy Trinity Brompton all the way from London in a hostile take-over of St. Teilo's in Cathays?
DeleteWith £10 million budget for "Mission" burning a hole in his pocket, why hasn't Andy Crap been busy setting up 25 or 30 Holywell Communities all over Wales?
We seem to be getting to a position where many resent paying a salary to these clergy men and women. They would be better holding down ordinary jobs and contributing financially to the Church while they minister part time. The recent appointments in Llandaff of a 'Director of Communications and Engagement' and 'Diocesan Secretary' each on large salaries doesn't help. I no longer support the CinW financially.
DeleteStoppit
To Ruth
DeleteAbergavenny is not in the diocese of Llandaff and not on the doorstep of the bishop of Llandaff. The Holywell Community is funded by a number of organisations - see their blog where they acknowledge funding from
The Number One Trust, The Confraternity of the Blessed Sacrament, Fellowship of Saint John the Evangelist, The Additional Curates Society & The Archbishop of Wales Fund for Children.
Although I know the bishop of Bangor personally, I cannot answer your question about his mission priorities. Maybe I should ask him next time I speak to him.
Cymraes yn Lloegr
Abergavenny is a good deal closer to Llandaff than Brompton, London.
DeleteRuth asks entirely pertinent questions.
Here is another.
Why isn't some of Andy Crap's £10 million slush fund given to Holywell and used, as you suggested, to plant more Holywells around Wales?
"Issues of churchmanship", perhaps.
ReplyDeleteI was going to state the obvious, Matthew, and say that it's because Andy is indeed Crap.
ReplyDeleteDewi Resistance
It is good to see that he has sees no dignity in his office. Perhaps he should be paid accordingly.
ReplyDeletePP. Is the recent announcement that +Gregory is going on a 4 month sebatical starting July 1st, that he is possibly a clue to another See seat?
ReplyDeleteYou may well be right, conveniently absent for the electoral college...
DeletePans
DPM. There is a word in the North that Asaph is heading York and is on the list. Can't see him going to Mon, too near home.
ReplyDeleteGregorius Eboracensis? Er... I think not. He does not have the corporate, consumerist profile that Welby now demands of all his episcopal chums. Apart from anything else, decline and failure are not the kind of baggage acceptable in the current C of E. Given that Welby and Santamu are not exactly drinking buddies will mean that Welby will be even more determined to influence the outcome of this appointment. Chelmsford, may be. Chichester, an outside possibility (as a reward for cleaning up the show there). A woman. Highly likely. A current Welsh bishop? Absolutely not.
ReplyDeleteThe big girl's blouse Gregorius Maximus may as well be a woman, so don't speak too soon and don't forget she came to Wales from the CofE.
DeleteCG, I think it is more accurate to say that Gregorius Maximus went to the C of E from Wales and then returned. Twice. He was ordained in the Diocese of Monmouth, served an incumbency there, then went to England (Bloxham Project?). He returned to be +Rowan's Chaplain, and then went to be Secretary to the Anglican Communion office in London. Then he returned to Wales to be Bishop of St Asaph after another of Barry Morgan's 'fixed' electoral colleges.
ReplyDeleteAnother reason he won't be going to York, in addition to the reasons A from A offers, is that he was largely credited with authorship of the Windsor Report (as the ghost-writer for Robin Eames) that proposed an Anglican Covenant. This was roundly rejected by the majority of Church of England Dioceses (including York), and so +GM will be unwelcome on that basis - not to say his close links to +Rowan who is considered to be a 'discontinued line' in the consumerist supermarket that is the C of E.
PP interesting 1.5m given from Evangelism fund to the new CinW hub in Wrexham
ReplyDeletehttps://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-48757660
This is complete waste of money! The building is directly opposite Wrexham Parish Church. I really cannot see the reason for spending this amazing amount of money, especially as Wrexham town centre is dying anyway.
DeleteThat statement by the Archbishop says precisely nothing that was not already known (or leaked) about the suspension of Bishop Richard. However it certainly hints at a power struggle behind the scenes orchestrated by the mendacious Dean and the Archdeacons.
ReplyDeleteA more resolute Archbishop should have disciplined the whole lot of them and sent them off to find new roles elsewhere. And then merged the Diocese of Monmouth with Llandaff to reduce the bloated hierarchy of the CinW. Wales needs at most 3 Dioceses given the parlous state of congregations.
A more resolute Archbishop. Yes. And a more imaginative one, too; with the intellectual dexterity that is able to say what needs to be said for the avoidance of doubt, and the avoidance of unhelpful speculation, without disclosing confidential information. As a lawyer (rather than a theologian) John Davies's instincts are always to cover his own back; and his risk-averse stance betrays all-too-clearly the lawyer's obsession with 'what the rules say.' It is only a great mind that, knowing what the rules are, can see a way to break them with insight for the benefit of the common good - and without diminishing those who are the main protagonists. Richard Pain's predecessor-but-one springs to mind immediately.
ReplyDeleteIn the meantime, the preamble arrangements for the Electoral College do not fill me with oodles of confidence. This is a situation that calls - again - for imagination and insightful empathy. Appointing an 'internal' person as consultor is another lost opportunity that will, inevitably, result in a shallower pool of potential candidates. If ever there was a case of an outside perspective being needed, this is it.
We all know that the current Archbishop is very much a 'caretaker.' But that's no reason for him to prove it is the case by being so predictably defensive and monotonous when situations require him to step up to the plate and lead with vision and imagination.
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DeleteDPM. What a thought provoking exit sermon from +Richard. Full of love a d compassion from a true man of God. Worth reading on the CiW site. You can see why so many mourn his exit.
ReplyDelete