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| Voting Source: Church in Wales |
Another sorry spectacle as the queering of the Church in Wales takes a significant step forward, moving towards same sex marriage in church after the vote at the Governing Body of the Church in Wales in the name of its members.
It was difficult to tell from #govbody tweeted comments whether there was a bias among the speakers or among the tweeters but the result was conclusive as revealed in this tweet after 4 hrs or so:
@Joelybarder
#govbody while realising the breadth of views, it's a deeply painful moment for conservatives as governing body votes 76-21 in favour of moving forward to structured pastoral provision for same-sex relationships, whatever the bishops decide that is.
The bishops had already decided from the wording of their loaded statement “It is pastorally unsustainable for the Church to make no formal provision for those in same-gender relationships.”
No doubt the complaints about persecution will continue despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary as illustrated by the vote.
Provision for faithful Anglicans not moved by the zeitgeist is still a no-go area.
There is no suggestion from the bishops that the effective excommunication of faithful Anglicans is 'pastorally unsustainable'.
Update
Church in Wales Provincial press release graphic change already signals intent:
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| Source: Church in Wales |
See also 'Archbishop John responds to the Governing Body's discussion today on formal provision for same sex relationships' on Facebook.
Unless they've already left surely there are more conservatives in CiW who will have to consider leaving now than those who would benefit from the vote.
ReplyDeleteMakes no sense: coupled with the fact it threatens effective communion with the majority of worldwide Anglicanism.
I am liberal in many things but I/some of my homosexual friends support blessing for/ a celebration of, a "committed same-sex relationship", but it isn't marriage - in the .. dare I say it ... 'traditional sense' ... it is a 'union' but a different kind of 'coming-together' ... just as in a man-to-woman change (or vice versa) becomes a 'woman who was once a man - she is not a woman! My main concern is for the education of our children re their sexuality ... many groups jumping on this LGBT bandwagon (CinW included) have become obsessed, even hysterical at times, in forcing - oops 'fast-tracking' - their ideas onto others ... Yes, it is a different Anglicanism supporting these changes - an even smaller smaller minority in a decade or so - maybe'someone' will establish a more traditional kind of Anglicanism, in Wales, soon ...
ReplyDeleteA truly sad day for CiW !
ReplyDeleteIt could be worse though...
ReplyDeletehttps://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45500072
"More than 3,600 children in Germany were assaulted by Roman Catholic priests between 1946 and 2014, a leaked report has revealed."
Has Llandaff Pewster managed to get a copy of this leaked report?
I think the time has come for those clergy and lay people who cannot accept this pandering to societal norms, whilst the Word of God is summarily dispensed with, to begin looking to GAFCON, and planning their exit strategies from the Church in Wales. Having seen how the Bench dealt with traditionalists who could not in conscience accept the ordination of women: ie, they promised everything, and in the end gave nothing. It is clear that negotiation with the Bishops is futile. They are hellbent on wrecking the Church in Wales - lets leave them get on with it. By 2020, hopefully it will have been put out of its misery.
ReplyDeleteBesides which, there can be no compromise position in this. Jesus' teaching on marriage is abundantly clear, unless of course, you wear a purple shirt and dog collar. What is worse is that GB could not see through the shenanigans of the Bench, and tell them where to get off.
Seymour
The Governing Body has been nothing more than a pack of mindless poodles for years.
DeleteGwaith y Diafol.
ReplyDeleteOne wonders why they are so concerned with LGBT when there are so many other issues in society, eg childhood mental health, drugs, about which they say so little publicly.
ReplyDeleteOnly a very small percentage of people are gay, many don't want to get married - and certainly not in a church which they don't attend anyway. We must ask how the present composition of Welsh Anglican clergy lends itself to this obsession. And do they realise that they are in danger of giving Christian sanction to particular sexual practices?
Simply
Of course they realise that Simply.
DeleteMany of the Clergy engage in those particular sexual practices.
The real agenda is that far from wanting to be accepted they require and demand approval of them.
Paedophilia is next on the list requiring approval.
Perhaps a peculiar penchant for hanging around men's men's gymnasium showers has a lot to do with it?
DeleteIntriguing Mr Pickles. Gird up your loins and tell us more! or should I have said "cover up your loins?"
DeletePP, very odd move this thrusted throttle into LGBT equality. Nothing wrong with supporting marginalized communities, but, this fresh agenda has gone way into hard territory.
ReplyDeleteI agree with previous debates herein. The church needs to battle far greater injustice in our society. At least the AB Canterbury, has the right idea at his recent TUC blast.
Given the debate in the CiW with this current issue are we missing something? Could the "B" aspect of LGBT be closer to the truth upon the bench? Given past debacles like +S at Mon and Llan!
The Bench, as always, have been very crafty and deceptive in their wording of this vote. It reminds me of people who come up to you in the street and ask "would you like to help children with cancer"? If you answer in the negative as you already give elsewhere, it sounds like you don't care about children with cancer. They did not ask, is Gay Marriage in Church Biblical/something we want.....instead it was emotive blackmail....should we care about Gay people in our churches? We always have and always will, which is not the same thing as Gay Marriage in Church. We love and care for all regardless of race, life style, colour, etc. Which is not the same as allowing things banned in Scripture to happen in Church and blessing it.
ReplyDeleteI did think the Archbishop's address to GB was great, however he kept quoting the very Scripture that he is now ignoring, we can't just take the bits we like (unfortunately!).
Of course, let's not rush to assume that the GB is actually representative of the Church in Wales as a whole. Bully Boy Barry, who is the most un-Anglican Archbishop the C in W has ever had on account of his profound dislike of consensus, severely cut the size of the GB. Not only did this significantly reduce the accountability of the bishops (while enhancing their powers), it diminished the diversity of the laity and their ability to hold the bishops to account. Thus, under Byzantine Barry, the CinW became more clericalised and, contrary to all the empty rhetoric, the influence of the laity was substantially weakened.
ReplyDeleteFunnily, this is exactly what he did with the PPC in Criccieth, some years after everyone forgot his cloud-laden departure from St Michael's College, Llandaff, and he became Archdeacon of Meirionnydd (strange how history repeats itself, isn't it?) because he wasn't getting his own way at every turn. He always had been a bad-tempered bad looser.
So now we are reaping the harvest of an Archiespiscopate that was all about meeting the needs of one person and his selfish, naked ambition. No wonder the decline is irreversible.
Talking of decline, wasn't Andy Crap's performance for the media, yesterday evening, commenting on the GB vote, absolutely cringe-inducing? Vacuous, vain and utterly void of intelligence.
Vacuous.
DeleteVain
Utterly devoid of intelligence.
The unholy trinity of prerequisites for wearing Episcopal purple in Wales since His --Darkness held sway.
I think when it comes to injustices, it's not one or the other is it i.e. deal with child mental health before dealing with a minority of queers. Injustice and pastoral need doesn't work like that. You'd be forgiven for thinking that, because we are so few in number, we should wait last in the queue of injustices. I say no to that: we've waited long enough. Now is our time for equality and well done on the bench for having the courage to do something about it. The Kingdom of God is coming by stealth - will you be part of it?
ReplyDeleteWhat is the equality deficit you are suffering? What are the injustices the Church is heaping upon you? How about some clear answers instead of constant moaning.
DeleteSimply
Why do you believe the Kingdom of God is coming on the basis of gay equality? What an extraordinary statement to make - do you hold a Doctorate in Theology? Or perhaps have written peer reviewed articles on the Kingdom? Maybe you are a celebrated author and scholar - please do tell?
DeleteIt's hardly by stealth either - it seems to be the number one priority.
Good Morning
DeleteThank you for your comment. I don't have a doctorate in theology (though I do have a doctorate) and I have not written
peer reviewed articles on eschatological theology, the parousia or the kingdom of God (though I have written other
peer reviewed articles). That said, had I both, I don't believe it’s that that would qualify me to comment on the coming
of God's kingdom. What qualifies me - and you - is the observation that the kingdom comes in the ministry of Jesus.
What qualifies me - and you - is therefore a Christ-like commitment to the ending of prejudice and injustice wherever we see it.
What qualifies me - and you - is a profound understanding that the Kingdom of God is revealed when structures of domination and subordination
are overcome. The Kingdom is inaugurated in the life, death and resurrection of Jesus and hence realised when the oppressed are set free. We see the beginnings of this theological understanding of the Kingdom (i.e. realised eschatology) in the work of Schweitzer and C.H. Dodd. More recently, you could turn to any of the liberation theologians to gain a deeper theological insight into the dynamics of the Kingdom, if that is what you are after?
If I could elaborate upon my own theological reflections, such as they are. The historical injustices towards LGBTI peoples stem – I believe (I may be wrong) - from a natural law construction of sexuality that emerged from within the
philosophical milleu of Stoicism. The deep distrust and ambivalence towards the body, and the consequent horror towards sex
that christianity inherited, has - thankfully - almost now disappeared. Except, that is, when it comes to LGBTi peoples. We are the last recipients of that inherited ambivalence that gets played out in attitudes that treat us if our love and affection is somehow bestial and of a lower nature; disordered. Thankfully, Christian ethicists are revising their erroneous natural constructions of human
sexuality, and my experience over the years are that they are listening to those of us at the margins. I welcome this.
[cont]
This debate around marriage and the reluctance of many to accept same-sex marriage
Deleteis I believe the last vestige of natural law constructions of sexuality (and the threat some feel around the non-reproductive nature of same sex unions). I contend that adopting an unjust
norm of compulsory heterosexuality (i.e. male-female marriage) is, by definition, perpetuating injustice and inequality towards those for whom heteronormativity is not how we have been wired.
The Bishops are courageous. Courageous because I think they realise that until the homosexual experience is truthfully spoken about and truthfully heard, the disorder
within the church will not be homosexuality per se. but the inability of the church to stand in compassion with homosexuals so that the church (and its people) can endure their truth and be enriched and enlarged by it. Sadly we hear other voices that say the GB debate was bias towards acceptance of same-sex peoples – of course it was; that’s what the Kingdom does – it favours those to whom injustice has been served and stands in solidarity alongside them. To so stand is to undo the historical injustices of the past: the distorted dynamics of domination and subordination of gay peoples that has caused such deep injury. That is why I contend that the Kingdom of God is coming. It's not confined of course to the liberation of gays, it prevails wherever truth is spoken to power. Exciting times.
Maybe I should enrol for a doctorate in theology: "Speaking truth to power: undoing the distorted dynamics of heteronormativity". What's the number for St. Padarn's?
PS. put up your email here and I will send you some excellent theological titles on the Kingdom of God that I have so enjoyed reading over the years. C. H. Dodd (now long departed) might be a good place to begin. I met him when at University. Charming man.
PPS. One entry said I was moaning – far from it – claiming, contending and unapologetically naming, that’s more like it. The days of moaning are long behind us, for the Kingdom has come. Realise it with me.
There is a problem with your thesis, Gaychristian; Jesus himself - the head of the Church and God incarnate - not some tin-pot bishop or archbishop - taught that marriage was between a man and a woman for life. (Matthew 19: 4-6). Your contention therefore, "that adopting an unjust norm of compulsory heterosexuality (i.e. male-female marriage) is, by definition, perpetuating injustice and inequality towards those for whom heteronormativity is not how we have been wired", means that Jesus himself, was prejudiced, unjust and a perpetuator of inequality. It is not the Kingdom of God that is coming; it is the Kingdom of Satan having a damned good laugh at the destruction which is being effected in the Church of Jesus Christ. Sadly, the bishops have allied themselves to that empire of evil, by manipulating the GB to do theirs and Satan's will. "By their fruits you will know them", the good Lord said.
DeleteIf you were truly Christian, gay or otherwise, the Lord's will should prevail in his Church and in your life. There is no point to praying the Lord's prayer if his will is not intended to be done by us. If you were truly Christian, gay or otherwise, the unity of Christ's Church should matter to you (read John 17, where five times in one prayer Jesus prays that "they might be united"). How you therefore think that this week has been a triumph is beyond me. The Church in Wales is now set on the path to implosion and destruction - what a triumph!
Seymour
An interesting post - 2 thoughts
Delete- You don't give any Scriptural references for your assertions
- I am a middle-aged white heterosexual protestant male. If Jesus only came for the oppressed then that seems to leave me out. How can I be part of this kingdom?
Postie
Jesus came to realise the Kingdom of God on earth - all remain oppressed if any of the 'little ones'(Mt 18.3) remain locked in unjust structures. So it's not that middle-aged white heterosexual protestant males are disenfranchised by the undoing of unjust structures towards gays, quite the reverse, when the oppressed are freed all humanity are freed. None are free until all are free. Hope that makes sense Postie.
DeleteAs for proof texting my thesis, where on earth do I begin - so much of Jesus' parabolic teaching about the Kingdom comes to mind. See C. H. Dodd The Parables of Jesus.
I prefer to read Ken Dodd than that tripe.
DeleteThe exposure of our children to all this IS going to be challenging in pastoral terms - are the bishops and senior clerics bothered about/aware of the problems already facing young people vis a vis their sexuality? One young couple known to me - many of their friends inspired by their stance - have given their newborn a gender neutral name ... have even refused to refer to 'it' as a boy or girl ... and will allow XXXX "to decide for itself when it grows up" what gender it wants to be.
ReplyDeleteGaychristian. 'An unjust norm of compulsory heterosexuality'?? Man/woman sexual relationships are of course the norm - surely we don't need to stress this. We're all here because of it. Attacking fundamentals like this serves no purpose and confuses the young. Please think again.
ReplyDeleteGuider
Guider, you missed the "compulsory" in what I wrote - to impose the norm is what I contend to be unjust. I agree with you, man/woman relationships are normative; it's the imposition of that normativity upon homosexuals that's unjust. It was that that I was stressing. Apologies if that came across otherwise. Thank you Guider.
DeleteWill the dud in the Llandaff Deanery take notice of the Archbishop of Canterbury?
ReplyDeleteWill she who must not be named?
https://www.tuc.org.uk/speeches/archbishop-canterbury-justin-welby-speech-tuc-congress-2018
Today there are some who view that kind of oppression of the employed as a virtue. The gig economy, zero hours contracts, is nothing new, it is simply the reincarnation of an ancient evil. And God says, “let justice flow down like waters, and righteousness like an ever-flowing stream”.
You know readers, just like the zero hours contracts introduced by Peggy the Pilate for the faux Cathedral Choir following the Lay Clerk redundancies.
The zero hours contracts so beloved of disreputable employers that take advantage of the needy and vulnerable.
"The reincarnation of an ancient evil".
Alive, well and thriving in Llandaff.
A faux Dean with a faux Choir on faux contracts in a faux Church in a faux Province.
DeleteHave I missed anything?
Harold Darke speaks with insight and integrity. Listen to this 1997 broadcast of Choral Evensong from Llandaff (the last time the BBC broadcast Evensong live from the cathedral). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLJ7xqXCZGo&t=2263s
DeleteIt is a perfect snapshot of the impact of Barry Morgan's bullying philistine sycophancy, and the losses sustained under his micromanaging iconoclasm.