Jackson: I feel sure the management and shareholders of other collapsed and now defunct organisations were also assured that they were part of a 'serious business' with rewards perhaps not in Heaven, but on the Stock Exchange. Organisations with far larger corporate senior managers and advisers to guide them out of doldrums than the paltry little C-in-W lot headed by the GB and RB. FW Woolworth, Burtons, Debenhams, Poundland, Northern Rock, Bradford & Bingley ... all assuring their investors and customers they were 'serious businesses' until the Liquidators and Administrators moved in. No laughing matter Jacko.
Really interesting to hear Dean Manons sermon this morning. A little hypocritical considering my experience of her has been one where she adds plenty of fuel to the drama through her gossiping.
Was the sermon repeat of her Avent Sunday 1 pulpit address chastising those who gossip and trundle on wastefully about past mistakes rather than sharing her assurances (and the Bible's) that glorious days, riches, hugs-all-round await us as soon as the Advent clock ticks over to Christmas morn? Apparently that sermon wasn't met with much enthusiasm either as it was perceived to be an admonishment to any of the choir or congregants who complain and false hope that it'll all be sorted .... eh?
Oh dear. If her sermon was as you report it, that’s a bad move, in my opinion. I have quite a lot of experience of picking up pieces after disasters of one kind or another, and yes, there does come a time when if an organisation is ever to emerge to see another day, the things of the past must be left in the past by those able to do that. But it is way too early to be drawing that kind of line, and doing it effectively always rests on the issues of the past having been effectively and properly dealt with, and time allowed for people to air what they really think and sit with hurt, anger and the other range of emotions. If they are prematurely suppressed, all that will happen is the complaining, backbiting and undermining will go underground, and become all the more destructive for it.
There’s also the theological issue that if this admonition was linked to the season of Advent, it shows a disappointingly superficial theological grasp of the function and nature of the season for someone who taught in theological education. Looking forward with expectation is indeed one thread, but it is firmly anchored in themes of penitence and justice. If the justice element is ignored in favour of the chocolate box image of hopeful expectancy, the result is something of a theological distortion. There is such a huge danger in using the pulpit to address disagreements in any community…
Before commenting further, may I suggest watching the sermon? It's available on the Cathedral's Youtube channel. The Dean's "pertinent" comments come towards the end.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c3e05130wyno Hurrah indeed! Jam and Jerusalem but no more psychological nut cases. May common bloody sense long rule.
Was told over coffee this morning by a friend, that Joe Cooper's finally been given his marching orders from the Cathedral. Official announcement to be made on Sunday no doubt! Eye in the sky.
If true, then Sunday morning hymns - with or without choir - should be 'Praise My Soul the King of Heaven', followed by 'I Danced in the Morning' (375) and then 'Joy and Triumph Everlasting' (229). Meanwhile, in the choir practice room, they might prefer 'In the Bleak Midwinter'.
Again if true, sure sign that Dean Manon has taken a grip. The DOM and his belligerent choir don't run the cathedral.
And presumably, with this announcement (if accurate), the high-value Canonry property (grace and favour perk provided to the DOM and previously cathedral organist) can be returned to the benefit of the cathedral and its dire needs for revenue-income.
What a disgusting comment from someone who clearly has no grasp on the environment at the cathedral. You don’t understand how much the DoM has contributed to the life of the cathedral.
Well shame on the RB then for wasting this prime property's income potential over the many years since Sion ap Rhys announced it to be unsuitable for cleric residence (along with the Deanery that he then moved into) due to city centre noise nuisance. It hadn't been used as a Residential Canon's place since Rev. Canon David Fisher was gifted a new almost £400,000 house and his Dean, Kathy Jones, was re-housed to another new-purchase costing more than £450,000.
Most in Bangor simply assumed this madness was down to its inept cathedral sub-Dean and out of the hands of the RB. Now you say otherwise. Foundations of the whole pyramid seems totally undermined in commercial acumen if true.
You claim I am 'Disgusting' for having simply reported on earlier local rumour that DOM Joe Cooper has been fired by the Dean and Chapter over series of 'issues'.
Well I hope that you have now had that rumour confirmed by reading the official statement released by the Dean and Chapter today that they have, in fact, deliberated and chosen that inevitable path. He is to depart 'with immediate effect'.
Whereas I am sure all in Old Testament times rejoiced that old Zechariah, father of John the Baptist - who was origin of your pseudonym 'Benedictus' - found his voice and was able to speak again after the visit of the Angel and Baptism of his son, you his name-sake simply keep yours firmly shut for the time being. You and a couple of others (on this site and other social media) are simply making fools of yourselves. But no. Far from having 'no grasp' of cathedral thinking, I am MUCH closer to matters of Bangor cathedral functioning than you might imagine.
Joe's sacking is an insignificant 'blip' in the 1,500 history of the cathedral - nothing more. But like the Dean, I wish him well for his future.
Of course it’s insignificant in the grand scheme of things. We all are. But right now it is very significant to Joe, and others affected. Your comment was unkind.
You claim to be close to the cathedral’s thinking and functioning, so perhaps you can explain so me why the only matters to have been investigated appear to have been the DoM or the choir? If they’re so insignificant, why the focus? I’d be intrigued to see how others would fare, subject to similar levels of scrutiny.
I’m not going to comment on the DoM’s dismissal, but ‘@A fool’s errand’ is right to raise the issue of others who have not been investigated, and whose behaviour may well have been far worse. That they have not been remains an utter disgrace and for as long as that remains the case, my view is the Dean will face too great an uphill struggle if she hopes to achieve any kind of genuine reconciliation or facilitate those dreadful terms ‘moving on’/‘closure’.
I’m now waiting to see if any follow-on action is instigated by anyone who may feel wronged by recent developments. Should such action take a legal turn, there is always the risk of things being disclosed in evidence that others may prefer remain firmly under the genuine Axminster…
You’re twisting my words, and obfuscating your own words. You should keep your own mouth shut. My point was your entirely inappropriate and unfunny suggestion that triumphant hymns should be sang on Sunday is disgusting. The cathedral is free of nothing expect its rich musical heritage. This will be a burden for future generations. I would love to hear you, or anyone in the congregation sing even the simple hymns that you suggested without his leadership.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4g4321yk44o If it smells like a cover-up, walks like a cover-up and quacks like a cover-up then it's a cover-up. Bewildered
Absolutely! It says something that unlike other members of staff, the cathedral has mentioned Mr. Cooper has built such a high standard of music. They’re trying to come off in a good light because they know they’re making a wrong, and frankly disgusting decision. The fact that he has been sacked for saving people’s jobs is beyond unchristian.
Joe Cooper was an easy target. Giving the impression that he and the choir were the actual problem in the cathedral. Giving the impression also that the new broom is now beginning to make a clean sweep of things. The truth remains that the real culprits are still in situ, namely the three archdeacons and the cathedral chapter who claim impunity all along, we knew nuthing, guv! How ironic that the chapter are the ones who sacked Mr Cooper when they themselves were culpable of allowing without question the former sub dean to do as he wished. Whatever the outcome of this sorry episode the three archdeacons and the cathedral chapter will be forever tainted with hypocrisy on a major scale. No convictions no backbone.
@Rhigyfarch While I agree that perhaps the Chapter be asked to 'resign' en bloc (-Dean) and re-constituted and one Archdeacon (who most will know but not from respect) be simply sacked from post, you are quite wrong in the remainder of your Blogl
Issue of Joe Cooper was, from the very start referred to an independent 'assessor' of some experience who presented his unbiased report. This - as with any process used in public service organisations or where Ombudsmen have commissioned reports - then went to another independent 'panel' who while not judging Mr. Cooper, deliberated on the appropriate of disciplinary action to be taken. This, again, in total accord with conventions. It was they who then submitted their decision to the Dean and Chapter who would fulfil the delivery to Mr. Cooper. At all stages, Mr. Cooper would have been within his rights to be 'represented' but I am not sure if he asked for that.
The two main allegations under unauthorised communications and Data Protection came after Sion ap Rhys had left Bangor, so that's a bit of a red herring too.
The decision to refer issues to the independent assessor and panel might seem a bit like Tiberius Ceaser washing his hands of Christ's determination but the process was fair and adopted widely even in Local Government.
Its probably unfair to Mr. Cooper's position at present to muddy the waters further.
This version (above) makes perfect 'Fact Checking' sense and overdue in its airing. Only a shame that in drafting its statement (ref Cooper), the Chapter itself didn't make the process clear. Except to deliver the verdict of the independent assessor who conducted enquiry into the allegations, and the independent panel which came to their conclusion on deliberations, the Dean and Chapter had little on no influence on things apart from presenting witness statements in the early phase. A very fair system and as you say, widely adopted by many other bodies and organisations.
Codswallop. Why wasn't the internal disciplinary procedure and process followed in the first instance? Any such dispute can only be referred to ACAS after any and all internal procedures and processes have been followed and exhausted, including any possible appeal(s). Was Joe Cooper given any choice in the referral to an "independent" adjudicator or was he forced and bullied down that path? Who appointed and paid for the "independent" adjudicator? Bewildered
Of course, I imagine the 'independent reviewers' were likely priests from a neighbouring diocese or something similar, so nothing truly independent. Also, I imagine they were not given the full context, or the ability to contact Mr. Cooper individually.
I can understand why the Chapter did not make public the process to be followed, as the general principle for employment disputes before referral to any tribunal is they proceed in private. But in the circumstances, it might have been wise to do so, if for no other reason than to head off further allegations of abuse of process. If they followed this kind of process, and if the various reviewers were genuinely independent (which for me would include them not being lay office holders - volunteer or paid - in the CiW as well as not being clergy), then they seem to be heading in the right direction, whatever the merits of this particular case.
But, as others have commented, that still does not excuse those who have any culpability in the SRE era or indeed in the aftermath when some decisions were implemented in very crass and heavy handed ways. It remains the case, in my opinion, that if there were things to address in the behaviour of Mr Cooper and the choir, there certainly also were in the actions (or inaction) of some current members of the Chapter.
I also agree that, to some degree, Mr Cooper was an easy target, though probably not for the same reasons as others who have said this.
Moving away from Mr Cooper, to a general principle of being an employee (or office holders), it is always unwise to openly criticise your employers in the professional media, or on social media, using your real name, in anything other than a very measured and careful way, if you are not to give them ammunition to use against you in disciplinary processes, should they choose to. Much as I dislike the power imbalance in that, sometimes being a realist serves you well, unless you’re one of those rare people who never puts a foot wrong and never makes any enemies - something I have never been.
Anyone suggesting that Bangor Cathedral might be bereft of Christmas music this Advent ought to have been at Monday's 'packed to the rafters' Emergency Services Carol Service. Superb - incredible even - music from traditional and Welsh with modern mix mainly sung by an entire chorus of congregants but led by the North Wales Police Choir and the Beaumaris Brass Band. Catch-it on live-stream if you can. Fantastic. Joyous and certainly Christmas-oozing it certainly was. Lessons to be learned for how it can be done m'thinks!!!
Then on Friday evening this week stand-by for much similar at the Cathedral when personnel, wives and children from RAF Valley, Anglesey, celebrate their Christmas carol service in similar voice. Their 'Military Wives Choir' is almost professional and if like their annual Battle of Britain cathedral service is yard-stick, the music and singing will be robust!
It's too easy to knock the Dean and Bangor clergy, staff and their support team and volunteers for all ills; but boy-oh-boy tonight's performance was staged and managed to point of excellence (with the Christian Nativity underscoring the whole thing.
Pray tell, after all the guest choirs have left following their annual carol services, how will daily evensong be and Sunday services after St. Stephen's day until December 2026?
It's good to focus on the positives, and it was an excellent service. Everything organised externally was polished. The awkward several minutes silence at the start was extremely embarrassing - and the brass band only realised they were accompanying the congregational carols when their conductor stepped up and announced that they had to do it because the organist hadn't turned up. In fact nobody had noticed that he wasn't there until the time came for him to start playing and he didn't. Luckily everyone forgot about it. Then the Canon cleverly reminded everyone of the Cathedral's embarrassment by explaining that he was booked for something else. Everyone was talking about that over their mince pies!
Fair Question Harold. But many earlier AB comments have focussed on the Advent and Christmas period hence my accolade to the way Bangor Cathedral can sill function well (musically) without its sulk-protesting choir. As for post St Stephen's day onwards, my guess is that Bangor, like the majority of large and small 'parish' churches will for the time being, return to the old and to be honest very acceptable congregational singing so long as it is led - as Martin Brown has done for decades - with a good organist. So far as I am concerned, God - who is now millions of pre 'Big Bang' years old - could well be tone-deaf. Would He care? I doubt it. His attention is probably only on the depth of belief, faith and thankfulness we the congregants have for his Creation. Who are these DoM's to inflict on Him their choices of Music ... God might be a Guns and Roses fan for all they know. Performance-church music only attracts a few add-in congregants per Sunday. It doesn't make them Worshippers. The deepest prayers are often said in desperation and alone or in the intensive care wards of hospitals or those at extreme, extreme risk. God is all ears. No choirs there Harold. Bangor cathedral will survive because it is a place of worship ... not a concert hall.
I agree that the standard of music tonight was good, and lifted people’s spirits. I agree that they also had a well planned and staged programme. The funny part is, the only bit that went wrong is the bit planned by the cathedral, with regard to the organist not turning up!
This is also a silly comparison to make to the cathedral choir, as many of these ensembles have been rehearsing for weeks and months, whereas the cathedral choir produced high standard music every week.
All this talk of Cathedral staff... But where were they? It was great that the ambulance and police people mucked in to move furniture and sort out seating, but why were guests at the Cathedral doing that? Where was the Manager (or is he no longer working there?). And also the tall scary woman who does the candles and moves furniture? Basically anything organised by the Cathedral was a disaster. The organist was named on the order of service and everything. But then again, the Sub Dean was hosting the event according to that.
Well, there we have it, yet another disappointing display of poor organisation from the cathedral’s clergy and staff. The musicians were excellent, and their performance was genuinely uplifting. But for an event this important, the fact that the organist was double-booked is something that should never have happened. If good communication actually existed within this place, it would have been avoided. Management has fallen short, yet again
To be honest if things continue like this, Bangor Cathedral is heading for real trouble. In the next five years, it risks collapsing under its own disorganisation. The Chapter especially has shown time and time again that it simply isn’t providing the leadership the cathedral needs. Every member seems to have failed in their responsibilities, and unless something changes, the place will keep sliding further into chaos. It now seems that a fresh start might be the only answer. New faces, with good energy, and clergy who can actually draw people in rather than push them away. The cathedral needs people who can rebuild trust, to bring back a sense of direction, and restore some pride to the place. Without that, the decline will only continue.
Perhaps AB will allow details of the ongoing saga in the Scottish church to also feature here. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c208vjdg8e4o More allegations of bullying. Bewildered
Point made but enough going on in the Church in Wales with their bishops' determination to press on with same sex blessings/marriage despite reservations surfacing in the Church of England.
Mullaly implicated once again. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cd6x7p761v0o Her installation as ABC should be delayed until this has been resolved. Bewildered
@Bewildered Oh come on!. Read the article/statement and not what you perceive to be reading between the lines. You seem to be hell-bent on ridding Bangor of its entire Cathedral chapter and have now upped your target sights to the AB Canterbury elect. You're only bewildering yourself and I for one am fed up with your constant whinging.
If you're so critical of the priested Anglican communion, have you ever thought of some other faith-denomination as a 'spiritual home'? A switch could prevent onset of stomach ulcers, gnashing of teeth and general bad-tempered dyspepsia.
Not to overly excite the juices or burst the ulcers of 'Sanctus', 'Rhigyfarch', 'Benedictus' or others of ilk, I have a funny feeling that if Bangor cathedral's hissy-fitting, dummy-spitting choir don't make their peace and return to 'resuming normal service' by Christmas any sympathy among congregants - who generally fund their costs - will have been lost. Certainly with the current and perhaps unforgiving, unbendable 'Chapter' theirs is already a lost cause. Their director of music Joe Cooper has been sacked and that's that. I doubt, from what I hear, that archbishop Cherry is likely to put any pressure on the Bangor Chapter to change heart any more than MP Wes Streeting will capitulate to strike-threatening junior doctors.
The choir has, apparently, lost any empathy within the core-base cathedral membership and sterling though their efforts are, the four gentlemen of the choir who might be described as choir Scabs (memories of the Miner's Strike) for bravely trying to fill in for the 30+ 'down tools' others, simply don't hold muster.
A previous champion or defender of the choir wrote here some days ago that the choir comprises highly intelligent people: Academics, lawyers, teachers etc. Probably so, but odd that this collective of IQ+ adults can't see the writing on the wall. As Margaret Thatcher would have said of the National Union of Miners: The Lady is Not for Turning. And nor, it seems is the Mother Cathedral. Joe is sacked. Get over it. You're welcome to return to stalls, but if not, 'normal service' will continue while the congregants have good voice.
Whether there ought to be root-and-branch changes to the 'Chapter' is besides the point for the while. For present, they rule the roost and are immovable. My suggestion to the choir is that it would be wishful thinking to hope that the new interim Bishop will change the status quo.
An Observer - it's lovely to hear that you really miss the choir and want the full choir back. It's a bit of a u turn from earlier posts where you ranted that the choir should be sacked. Which is it? The congregation has not funded the costs of the choir, and are not doing so now. I'm not sure why the choir that was would need the sympathy of the congregation - it seems to me that the Cathedral is poorer without the music that it has enjoyed. There is no strike. There are no scabs. The choir was suspended for a month in September, and grudgingly told they could come back if they wanted to but there was no formal announcement. This is not a strike - nobody wanted to come back and nobody has. In an earlier post you told someone to go to find another church choir. This is what has happened. The children sing in other places now, the sopranos (not able to join the male voice choir you recommended) formed their own choir and held a charity concert at another church last weekend. The highly intelligent people - the lawyers, academics and teachers - were intelligent enough to stay away; some of them attend on a Sunday, others don't. Some go to other churches. So you might want to ask the Dean and Chapter why there isn't a choir, and what they have been doing to encourage people to attend the Cathedral (in any capacity, including joining the congregation, and forming a choir). That's where the problem is.
People on here for years have said people should vote with their feet, it seems this is what the choir has done, and I hear the old guard priests along with most of the servers. Why ridicule people for leaving when this site often calls for people to withdraw giving and support to the CinW?
The 'scabs' apart from Chris Dearden are the paid positions that Joe Cooper saved before being sacked. So if he had not done the fundraiser the choir would be Chris Dearden alone.
Where were the newspaper articles dismissing priests for fraud and neglegence?
While generally agreeing with 'An Observer' that the once excellent choir are fast loosing the support of the congregant base by comments they publish here denouncing the cathedral clergy, their exaggerated self-esteem etc. I should perhaps caution that by doing so they are not doing Joe Cooper any favours.
Having been dismissed 'with immediate effect' (which to any potential employer raises more red flags) Mr. Cooper will no doubt be spending all available hours scouring the 'Jobs Vacant' adverts and sending off his CV as applicant. Any responsible and perspective employer these days will check out the full back-story. Not why or how he was fired, but what chaos he left in his wake whether of his making or not. His fan-base of former choir will not be helpful in that review.
There's the example of the 'sacked' sub-dean of Bangor, Sion ap-Rhys Evans who landed himself a well-salaried and even 'plumb' job (after application and interviews etc) as Bursar of a non OXBRIDGE Cambridge college. It didn't last long. The College was later alarmed to find the level of discontent he'd stirred up in Bangor and mainly from reading social media such as Ancient Briton and Nation Cymru and before his probation period was over 'released him' back to unemployment. With too many good candidates applying for the same vacant post, Joe Cooper could well do without the open correspondences of his followers. He might not see it that way - but that's the way it is.
I've been at the sharp end of personnel 'search and select' headhunting for a number of years. We dig far deeper into the back-stories than candidates often imagine. Yes, right down into their own personal Facebook etc chitter-chatter. Those who wish Joe Cooper well in his future career (and job searching) ought perhaps give him a break. Back off. It surprises me that those antagonists who claim to be 'intelligent' beyond the IQ level of clergy and congregants haven't figured this one out already.
Having attended the informal carol service tonight I was absolutely appalled by the standard of the music. There were 6 people in the choir, and clearly they were struggling as the sacrist/caretaker had been drafted into singing with them. The choir carols were uninspiring and sang in mediocre unison. Most disappointing of all were the well known congregational carols (Hark the herald and O come all ye faithful). I have normally heard these sang with great enthusiasm, in a rousing manner. There are normally glorious descants over the top, but all I heard today was mumbling of the tune and the musings of a descant, which couldn’t really be heard at all. I don’t blame any individual members of the choir, but I certainly blame the cathedral for firing Cooper. Clearly, music at the cathedral is not fit for its purpose (uplifting the liturgy) without him.
An odd entry (above) from 'Sparrow' decrying that the standard of Carol singing from the six remaining choir at the cathedral on Wednesday (?) was absolutely appalling, uninspiring, mediocre unison, disappointing, tune-mumbling, inaudible etc. Now are these the same gentlemen (excepting Chris Dearden) who another contributor defended or excused from joining the walk-out as they are the ones who receive income from funds sourced? If this is the best they can do, what on earth is the cathedral doing paying them???? If they can't sing, then cancel the cheques. I can't comment further because I wasn't there - nor will I be there over Christmas. I have an old 'Grundig' crystal 'wireless' set in my Ogwen Valley potting shed and will be tuned in to King's College choir but it does seem to be an appalling shambles. Pity.
They are paid primarily so that they do not need to undertake other work that would render them unable to come to church for the totality of the rehearsals and services required - volunteers, no matter how dedicated, cannot be presumed upon to the same extent. There is an expectation of musical quality as well, but it is a reality of many choirs that you will have voluntary members who are better vocally than some of the paid staff who form the backbone of the group. Also, none of the current paid singers are sopranos (the Chapter having cancelled all dep fees, choral scholarships and chorister bursaries), and the absence of a solid soprano line will inevitably have a noticeable impact on the sound.
What the currently quality of music (or lack thereof) at Bangor Cathedral currently shows is that a proper choir is much more than a sum of its parts, and the actual skill of a good choirmaster is putting these individual together and forming a cohesive whole. This is a skill that the cathedral had in Joe Cooper and which it now lacks and, I fear, will continue to lack for the foreseeable future.
I feel the phrase "be careful what you wish for" may apply.
If media reports are correct, Cooper was only sacked because of his alleged leaks to the media and the choir’s protest following redundancy notices. That is, the issues referred to in the now long forgotten initial reports of wrongdoing in the choir were not part of the case against him. Strange that. Or maybe not, considering the likelihood of some Cathedral priests being a part of the very same ‘drinking culture’. Have they been protected?
Then, the focus on the choir seemed to be a smokescreen for much deeper problems. And continues to be?
Amazing to you that people still set foot into churches any more? I don't know your purpose, but for the vast majority of faith-believing Christians, it is to enter a church (or a cathedral) to pray, thank our God for gifts given, affirm our faith, receive the Holy Communion and take heart from it. Clergy good or bad, choir good or bad, have no part in it. Attendance at churches, cathedrals, Mosques, Temples, chapels or whatever serve that purpose. Nothing to do with who leads the service or sings the Psalms. Worship has held together long before the Christian church was founded and to those committed to it will survive for light-years ahead. You obviously don't attend. Fine with us. Try the Church of Latter Day Saints. They'll make you welcome. l
No building, Church, Cathedral or Temple is required. "Where two or more are gathered together in my name". The hubris involved in claiming to know the thoughts, minds and motivations of "the vast majority of faith-believing Christians". Perhaps you're very proud of being the most humble man in your Cathedral.
"Sorry Cherry, but Andy John couldn't make it despite all these cameras being here ... so here I am instead!"
ReplyDeleteStop laughing you two, the Church in Wales is still serious buisness
ReplyDeleteJackson: I feel sure the management and shareholders of other collapsed and now defunct organisations were also assured that they were part of a 'serious business' with rewards perhaps not in Heaven, but on the Stock Exchange. Organisations with far larger corporate senior managers and advisers to guide them out of doldrums than the paltry little C-in-W lot headed by the GB and RB. FW Woolworth, Burtons, Debenhams, Poundland, Northern Rock, Bradford & Bingley ... all assuring their investors and customers they were 'serious businesses' until the Liquidators and Administrators moved in. No laughing matter Jacko.
DeleteReally interesting to hear Dean Manons sermon this morning. A little hypocritical considering my experience of her has been one where she adds plenty of fuel to the drama through her gossiping.
ReplyDeleteDisgruntled Exile
Was the sermon repeat of her Avent Sunday 1 pulpit address chastising those who gossip and trundle on wastefully about past mistakes rather than sharing her assurances (and the Bible's) that glorious days, riches, hugs-all-round await us as soon as the Advent clock ticks over to Christmas morn? Apparently that sermon wasn't met with much enthusiasm either as it was perceived to be an admonishment to any of the choir or congregants who complain and false hope that it'll all be sorted .... eh?
DeleteOh dear. If her sermon was as you report it, that’s a bad move, in my opinion. I have quite a lot of experience of picking up pieces after disasters of one kind or another, and yes, there does come a time when if an organisation is ever to emerge to see another day, the things of the past must be left in the past by those able to do that. But it is way too early to be drawing that kind of line, and doing it effectively always rests on the issues of the past having been effectively and properly dealt with, and time allowed for people to air what they really think and sit with hurt, anger and the other range of emotions. If they are prematurely suppressed, all that will happen is the complaining, backbiting and undermining will go underground, and become all the more destructive for it.
DeleteThere’s also the theological issue that if this admonition was linked to the season of Advent, it shows a disappointingly superficial theological grasp of the function and nature of the season for someone who taught in theological education. Looking forward with expectation is indeed one thread, but it is firmly anchored in themes of penitence and justice. If the justice element is ignored in favour of the chocolate box image of hopeful expectancy, the result is something of a theological distortion. There is such a huge danger in using the pulpit to address disagreements in any community…
DeleteBefore commenting further, may I suggest watching the sermon? It's available on the Cathedral's Youtube channel. The Dean's "pertinent" comments come towards the end.
DeleteDarth --Insidious was there to give it all the kiss of death so it's business as usual.
ReplyDeleteThe mere sight of the fool is nauseating.
Bewildered
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cz7n921wyzvo
ReplyDeleteAt least the Girl Guides have woken up to common sense although it is long overdue.
Hurrah!
Deletehttps://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c3e05130wyno
Enough of the Stonewall trans ordure!
Women's Institute just followed suit. No Trans fingers in their Jam-Making sessions!!!! Not even Cherry Preserve !!!!
Deletehttps://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c3e05130wyno
DeleteHurrah indeed!
Jam and Jerusalem but no more psychological nut cases.
May common bloody sense long rule.
I’m fairly certain that that photograph showed the forthcoming interim Bishop of Bangor. Watch this space.
ReplyDeleteCymro Alltud
@Anonymous... which foreigner and which photograph please...
DeleteWhat larks! Neither of them enjoy the company of another starlet beside them, stealing the limelight.
ReplyDelete#HandbagsAtDawn #BangHer
uwch y llwyfan
Was told over coffee this morning by a friend, that Joe Cooper's finally been given his marching orders from the Cathedral. Official announcement to be made on Sunday no doubt! Eye in the sky.
ReplyDeleteIf true, then Sunday morning hymns - with or without choir - should be 'Praise My Soul the King of Heaven', followed by 'I Danced in the Morning' (375) and then 'Joy and Triumph Everlasting' (229). Meanwhile, in the choir practice room, they might prefer 'In the Bleak Midwinter'.
DeleteAgain if true, sure sign that Dean Manon has taken a grip. The DOM and his belligerent choir don't run the cathedral.
And presumably, with this announcement (if accurate), the high-value Canonry property (grace and favour perk provided to the DOM and previously cathedral organist) can be returned to the benefit of the cathedral and its dire needs for revenue-income.
DeleteAn Observer.
DeleteWhat a disgusting comment from someone who clearly has no grasp on the environment at the cathedral. You don’t understand how much the DoM has contributed to the life of the cathedral.
Benedictus
Statement published today: https://bangor.eglwysyngnghymru.org.uk/newyddion/2025/12/04/datganiad-cadeirlan-bangor/
DeleteEye in the Sky
Now let's see the Choir walk out en masse in support of Joe.
DeleteAll property is owned by the RB parsonage board so will make no difference to the cathedral income.
ReplyDeleteWell shame on the RB then for wasting this prime property's income potential over the many years since Sion ap Rhys announced it to be unsuitable for cleric residence (along with the Deanery that he then moved into) due to city centre noise nuisance. It hadn't been used as a Residential Canon's place since Rev. Canon David Fisher was gifted a new almost £400,000 house and his Dean, Kathy Jones, was re-housed to another new-purchase costing more than £450,000.
DeleteMost in Bangor simply assumed this madness was down to its inept cathedral sub-Dean and out of the hands of the RB. Now you say otherwise. Foundations of the whole pyramid seems totally undermined in commercial acumen if true.
Room for change at all levels eh?
House prices are very cheap in Bangor. Two bed cottage prices here.
Delete@ Benedictus (somewhere above)
ReplyDeleteYou claim I am 'Disgusting' for having simply reported on earlier local rumour that DOM Joe Cooper has been fired by the Dean and Chapter over series of 'issues'.
Well I hope that you have now had that rumour confirmed by reading the official statement released by the Dean and Chapter today that they have, in fact, deliberated and chosen that inevitable path. He is to depart 'with immediate effect'.
Whereas I am sure all in Old Testament times rejoiced that old Zechariah, father of John the Baptist - who was origin of your pseudonym 'Benedictus' - found his voice and was able to speak again after the visit of the Angel and Baptism of his son, you his name-sake simply keep yours firmly shut for the time being. You and a couple of others (on this site and other social media) are simply making fools of yourselves. But no. Far from having 'no grasp' of cathedral thinking, I am MUCH closer to matters of Bangor cathedral functioning than you might imagine.
Joe's sacking is an insignificant 'blip' in the 1,500 history of the cathedral - nothing more. But like the Dean, I wish him well for his future.
@An Observer
DeleteOf course it’s insignificant in the grand scheme of things. We all are. But right now it is very significant to Joe, and others affected. Your comment was unkind.
You claim to be close to the cathedral’s thinking and functioning, so perhaps you can explain so me why the only matters to have been investigated appear to have been the DoM or the choir? If they’re so insignificant, why the focus? I’d be intrigued to see how others would fare, subject to similar levels of scrutiny.
A fool’s errand
I’m not going to comment on the DoM’s dismissal, but ‘@A fool’s errand’ is right to raise the issue of others who have not been investigated, and whose behaviour may well have been far worse. That they have not been remains an utter disgrace and for as long as that remains the case, my view is the Dean will face too great an uphill struggle if she hopes to achieve any kind of genuine reconciliation or facilitate those dreadful terms ‘moving on’/‘closure’.
DeleteI’m now waiting to see if any follow-on action is instigated by anyone who may feel wronged by recent developments. Should such action take a legal turn, there is always the risk of things being disclosed in evidence that others may prefer remain firmly under the genuine Axminster…
Observer.
DeleteYou’re twisting my words, and obfuscating your own words. You should keep your own mouth shut. My point was your entirely inappropriate and unfunny suggestion that triumphant hymns should be sang on Sunday is disgusting. The cathedral is free of nothing expect its rich musical heritage. This will be a burden for future generations. I would love to hear you, or anyone in the congregation sing even the simple hymns that you suggested without his leadership.
Benedictus (and thanks, I know its etymology).
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4g4321yk44o
ReplyDeleteIf it smells like a cover-up, walks like a cover-up and quacks like a cover-up then it's a cover-up.
Bewildered
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cvgk9kj45ngo
ReplyDeleteJoe Cooper speaks out for himself and sticks two fingers up to the Bangor Chapter. 🖕🖕
Good for him.
Absolutely! It says something that unlike other members of staff, the cathedral has mentioned Mr. Cooper has built such a high standard of music. They’re trying to come off in a good light because they know they’re making a wrong, and frankly disgusting decision. The fact that he has been sacked for saving people’s jobs is beyond unchristian.
DeleteBenedictus
Joe Cooper was an easy target. Giving the impression that he and the choir were the actual problem in the cathedral. Giving the impression also that the new broom is now beginning to make a clean sweep of things. The truth remains that the real culprits are still in situ, namely the three archdeacons and the cathedral chapter who claim impunity all along, we knew nuthing, guv! How ironic that the chapter are the ones who sacked Mr Cooper when they themselves were culpable of allowing without question the former sub dean to do as he wished. Whatever the outcome of this sorry episode the three archdeacons and the cathedral chapter will be forever tainted with hypocrisy on a major scale. No convictions no backbone.
ReplyDelete@Rhigyfarch
ReplyDeleteWhile I agree that perhaps the Chapter be asked to 'resign' en bloc (-Dean) and re-constituted and one Archdeacon (who most will know but not from respect) be simply sacked from post, you are quite wrong in the remainder of your Blogl
Issue of Joe Cooper was, from the very start referred to an independent 'assessor' of some experience who presented his unbiased report. This - as with any process used in public service organisations or where Ombudsmen have commissioned reports - then went to another independent 'panel' who while not judging Mr. Cooper, deliberated on the appropriate of disciplinary action to be taken. This, again, in total accord with conventions. It was they who then submitted their decision to the Dean and Chapter who would fulfil the delivery to Mr. Cooper. At all stages, Mr. Cooper would have been within his rights to be 'represented' but I am not sure if he asked for that.
The two main allegations under unauthorised communications and Data Protection came after Sion ap Rhys had left Bangor, so that's a bit of a red herring too.
The decision to refer issues to the independent assessor and panel might seem a bit like Tiberius Ceaser washing his hands of Christ's determination but the process was fair and adopted widely even in Local Government.
Its probably unfair to Mr. Cooper's position at present to muddy the waters further.
This version (above) makes perfect 'Fact Checking' sense and overdue in its airing. Only a shame that in drafting its statement (ref Cooper), the Chapter itself didn't make the process clear. Except to deliver the verdict of the independent assessor who conducted enquiry into the allegations, and the independent panel which came to their conclusion on deliberations, the Dean and Chapter had little on no influence on things apart from presenting witness statements in the early phase. A very fair system and as you say, widely adopted by many other bodies and organisations.
DeleteCodswallop.
DeleteWhy wasn't the internal disciplinary procedure and process followed in the first instance?
Any such dispute can only be referred to ACAS after any and all internal procedures and processes have been followed and exhausted, including any possible appeal(s).
Was Joe Cooper given any choice in the referral to an "independent" adjudicator or was he forced and bullied down that path?
Who appointed and paid for the "independent" adjudicator?
Bewildered
Of course, I imagine the 'independent reviewers' were likely priests from a neighbouring diocese or something similar, so nothing truly independent. Also, I imagine they were not given the full context, or the ability to contact Mr. Cooper individually.
DeleteBenedictus
I can understand why the Chapter did not make public the process to be followed, as the general principle for employment disputes before referral to any tribunal is they proceed in private. But in the circumstances, it might have been wise to do so, if for no other reason than to head off further allegations of abuse of process. If they followed this kind of process, and if the various reviewers were genuinely independent (which for me would include them not being lay office holders - volunteer or paid - in the CiW as well as not being clergy), then they seem to be heading in the right direction, whatever the merits of this particular case.
DeleteBut, as others have commented, that still does not excuse those who have any culpability in the SRE era or indeed in the aftermath when some decisions were implemented in very crass and heavy handed ways. It remains the case, in my opinion, that if there were things to address in the behaviour of Mr Cooper and the choir, there certainly also were in the actions (or inaction) of some current members of the Chapter.
I also agree that, to some degree, Mr Cooper was an easy target, though probably not for the same reasons as others who have said this.
Moving away from Mr Cooper, to a general principle of being an employee (or office holders), it is always unwise to openly criticise your employers in the professional media, or on social media, using your real name, in anything other than a very measured and careful way, if you are not to give them ammunition to use against you in disciplinary processes, should they choose to. Much as I dislike the power imbalance in that, sometimes being a realist serves you well, unless you’re one of those rare people who never puts a foot wrong and never makes any enemies - something I have never been.
Anyone suggesting that Bangor Cathedral might be bereft of Christmas music this Advent ought to have been at Monday's 'packed to the rafters' Emergency Services Carol Service. Superb - incredible even - music from traditional and Welsh with modern mix mainly sung by an entire chorus of congregants but led by the North Wales Police Choir and the Beaumaris Brass Band. Catch-it on live-stream if you can. Fantastic. Joyous and certainly Christmas-oozing it certainly was. Lessons to be learned for how it can be done m'thinks!!!
ReplyDeleteThen on Friday evening this week stand-by for much similar at the Cathedral when personnel, wives and children from RAF Valley, Anglesey, celebrate their Christmas carol service in similar voice. Their 'Military Wives Choir' is almost professional and if like their annual Battle of Britain cathedral service is yard-stick, the music and singing will be robust!
It's too easy to knock the Dean and Bangor clergy, staff and their support team and volunteers for all ills; but boy-oh-boy tonight's performance was staged and managed to point of excellence (with the Christian Nativity underscoring the whole thing.
Pray tell, after all the guest choirs have left following their annual carol services, how will daily evensong be and Sunday services after St. Stephen's day until December 2026?
DeleteThough the organist didn't show and no cathedral staff seemed to even notice until 5 minutes into the service when there was no music.
DeleteIt's good to focus on the positives, and it was an excellent service. Everything organised externally was polished.
DeleteThe awkward several minutes silence at the start was extremely embarrassing - and the brass band only realised they were accompanying the congregational carols when their conductor stepped up and announced that they had to do it because the organist hadn't turned up.
In fact nobody had noticed that he wasn't there until the time came for him to start playing and he didn't.
Luckily everyone forgot about it. Then the Canon cleverly reminded everyone of the Cathedral's embarrassment by explaining that he was booked for something else. Everyone was talking about that over their mince pies!
Fair Question Harold. But many earlier AB comments have focussed on the Advent and Christmas period hence my accolade to the way Bangor Cathedral can sill function well (musically) without its sulk-protesting choir.
DeleteAs for post St Stephen's day onwards, my guess is that Bangor, like the majority of large and small 'parish' churches will for the time being, return to the old and to be honest very acceptable congregational singing so long as it is led - as Martin Brown has done for decades - with a good organist.
So far as I am concerned, God - who is now millions of pre 'Big Bang' years old - could well be tone-deaf. Would He care? I doubt it. His attention is probably only on the depth of belief, faith and thankfulness we the congregants have for his Creation. Who are these DoM's to inflict on Him their choices of Music ... God might be a Guns and Roses fan for all they know. Performance-church music only attracts a few add-in congregants per Sunday. It doesn't make them Worshippers. The deepest prayers are often said in desperation and alone or in the intensive care wards of hospitals or those at extreme, extreme risk. God is all ears. No choirs there Harold. Bangor cathedral will survive because it is a place of worship ... not a concert hall.
Ad Clerum,
DeleteI agree that the standard of music tonight was good, and lifted people’s spirits. I agree that they also had a well planned and staged programme. The funny part is, the only bit that went wrong is the bit planned by the cathedral, with regard to the organist not turning up!
This is also a silly comparison to make to the cathedral choir, as many of these ensembles have been rehearsing for weeks and months, whereas the cathedral choir produced high standard music every week.
Benedictus.
All this talk of Cathedral staff... But where were they? It was great that the ambulance and police people mucked in to move furniture and sort out seating, but why were guests at the Cathedral doing that?
DeleteWhere was the Manager (or is he no longer working there?). And also the tall scary woman who does the candles and moves furniture?
Basically anything organised by the Cathedral was a disaster. The organist was named on the order of service and everything. But then again, the Sub Dean was hosting the event according to that.
@Ad Clerum
DeleteWhat place then in your version of the universe for the cherubim and seraphim singing eternal praise to your tone deaf version of God?
Nope.
DeleteStill can't hear you!
🙉 🙉 🙉
Perhaps they don't sing "Hark ! The Herald Angels sing" up in gog land?
DeleteWell, there we have it, yet another disappointing display of poor organisation from the cathedral’s clergy and staff. The musicians were excellent, and their performance was genuinely uplifting. But for an event this important, the fact that the organist was double-booked is something that should never have happened. If good communication actually existed within this place, it would have been avoided. Management has fallen short, yet again
ReplyDeleteTo be honest if things continue like this, Bangor Cathedral is heading for real trouble. In the next five years, it risks collapsing under its own disorganisation. The Chapter especially has shown time and time again that it simply isn’t providing the leadership the cathedral needs. Every member seems to have failed in their responsibilities, and unless something changes, the place will keep sliding further into chaos.
It now seems that a fresh start might be the only answer. New faces, with good energy, and clergy who can actually draw people in rather than push them away. The cathedral needs people who can rebuild trust, to bring back a sense of direction, and restore some pride to the place. Without that, the decline will only continue.
Charlie
Perhaps AB will allow details of the ongoing saga in the Scottish church to also feature here.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c208vjdg8e4o
More allegations of bullying.
Bewildered
Point made but enough going on in the Church in Wales with their bishops' determination to press on with same sex blessings/marriage despite reservations surfacing in the Church of England.
DeleteMullaly implicated once again.
Deletehttps://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cd6x7p761v0o
Her installation as ABC should be delayed until this has been resolved.
Bewildered
@Bewildered
ReplyDeleteOh come on!. Read the article/statement and not what you perceive to be reading between the lines. You seem to be hell-bent on ridding Bangor of its entire Cathedral chapter and have now upped your target sights to the AB Canterbury elect. You're only bewildering yourself and I for one am fed up with your constant whinging.
If you're so critical of the priested Anglican communion, have you ever thought of some other faith-denomination as a 'spiritual home'? A switch could prevent onset of stomach ulcers, gnashing of teeth and general bad-tempered dyspepsia.
How many members of the cathedral chapter does it take to change a light bulb? None because they never take responsibility for anything.
ReplyDeleteChange?
DeleteChange???
What the hell is change????? 😮😮
Not to overly excite the juices or burst the ulcers of 'Sanctus', 'Rhigyfarch', 'Benedictus' or others of ilk, I have a funny feeling that if Bangor cathedral's hissy-fitting, dummy-spitting choir don't make their peace and return to 'resuming normal service' by Christmas any sympathy among congregants - who generally fund their costs - will have been lost. Certainly with the current and perhaps unforgiving, unbendable 'Chapter' theirs is already a lost cause. Their director of music Joe Cooper has been sacked and that's that. I doubt, from what I hear, that archbishop Cherry is likely to put any pressure on the Bangor Chapter to change heart any more than MP Wes Streeting will capitulate to strike-threatening junior doctors.
ReplyDeleteThe choir has, apparently, lost any empathy within the core-base cathedral membership and sterling though their efforts are, the four gentlemen of the choir who might be described as choir Scabs (memories of the Miner's Strike) for bravely trying to fill in for the 30+ 'down tools' others, simply don't hold muster.
A previous champion or defender of the choir wrote here some days ago that the choir comprises highly intelligent people: Academics, lawyers, teachers etc. Probably so, but odd that this collective of IQ+ adults can't see the writing on the wall. As Margaret Thatcher would have said of the National Union of Miners: The Lady is Not for Turning. And nor, it seems is the Mother Cathedral. Joe is sacked. Get over it. You're welcome to return to stalls, but if not, 'normal service' will continue while the congregants have good voice.
Whether there ought to be root-and-branch changes to the 'Chapter' is besides the point for the while. For present, they rule the roost and are immovable. My suggestion to the choir is that it would be wishful thinking to hope that the new interim Bishop will change the status quo.
An Observer - it's lovely to hear that you really miss the choir and want the full choir back. It's a bit of a u turn from earlier posts where you ranted that the choir should be sacked. Which is it?
DeleteThe congregation has not funded the costs of the choir, and are not doing so now. I'm not sure why the choir that was would need the sympathy of the congregation - it seems to me that the Cathedral is poorer without the music that it has enjoyed.
There is no strike. There are no scabs. The choir was suspended for a month in September, and grudgingly told they could come back if they wanted to but there was no formal announcement. This is not a strike - nobody wanted to come back and nobody has.
In an earlier post you told someone to go to find another church choir. This is what has happened. The children sing in other places now, the sopranos (not able to join the male voice choir you recommended) formed their own choir and held a charity concert at another church last weekend. The highly intelligent people - the lawyers, academics and teachers - were intelligent enough to stay away; some of them attend on a Sunday, others don't. Some go to other churches.
So you might want to ask the Dean and Chapter why there isn't a choir, and what they have been doing to encourage people to attend the Cathedral (in any capacity, including joining the congregation, and forming a choir). That's where the problem is.
The other observation deck
Your comments don’t make a return an appetising prospect, it begs the question why. There are other places to worship don’t you know.
ReplyDeleteFrom no desire to return
People on here for years have said people should vote with their feet, it seems this is what the choir has done, and I hear the old guard priests along with most of the servers. Why ridicule people for leaving when this site often calls for people to withdraw giving and support to the CinW?
ReplyDeleteThe 'scabs' apart from Chris Dearden are the paid positions that Joe Cooper saved before being sacked. So if he had not done the fundraiser the choir would be Chris Dearden alone.
Where were the newspaper articles dismissing priests for fraud and neglegence?
Oh yeh, hushed up.
While generally agreeing with 'An Observer' that the once excellent choir are fast loosing the support of the congregant base by comments they publish here denouncing the cathedral clergy, their exaggerated self-esteem etc. I should perhaps caution that by doing so they are not doing Joe Cooper any favours.
ReplyDeleteHaving been dismissed 'with immediate effect' (which to any potential employer raises more red flags) Mr. Cooper will no doubt be spending all available hours scouring the 'Jobs Vacant' adverts and sending off his CV as applicant. Any responsible and perspective employer these days will check out the full back-story. Not why or how he was fired, but what chaos he left in his wake whether of his making or not. His fan-base of former choir will not be helpful in that review.
There's the example of the 'sacked' sub-dean of Bangor, Sion ap-Rhys Evans who landed himself a well-salaried and even 'plumb' job (after application and interviews etc) as Bursar of a non OXBRIDGE Cambridge college. It didn't last long. The College was later alarmed to find the level of discontent he'd stirred up in Bangor and mainly from reading social media such as Ancient Briton and Nation Cymru and before his probation period was over 'released him' back to unemployment. With too many good candidates applying for the same vacant post, Joe Cooper could well do without the open correspondences of his followers. He might not see it that way - but that's the way it is.
I've been at the sharp end of personnel 'search and select' headhunting for a number of years. We dig far deeper into the back-stories than candidates often imagine. Yes, right down into their own personal Facebook etc chitter-chatter. Those who wish Joe Cooper well in his future career (and job searching) ought perhaps give him a break. Back off. It surprises me that those antagonists who claim to be 'intelligent' beyond the IQ level of clergy and congregants haven't figured this one out already.
Having attended the informal carol service tonight I was absolutely appalled by the standard of the music. There were 6 people in the choir, and clearly they were struggling as the sacrist/caretaker had been drafted into singing with them. The choir carols were uninspiring and sang in mediocre unison. Most disappointing of all were the well known congregational carols (Hark the herald and O come all ye faithful). I have normally heard these sang with great enthusiasm, in a rousing manner. There are normally glorious descants over the top, but all I heard today was mumbling of the tune and the musings of a descant, which couldn’t really be heard at all. I don’t blame any individual members of the choir, but I certainly blame the cathedral for firing Cooper. Clearly, music at the cathedral is not fit for its purpose (uplifting the liturgy) without him.
ReplyDeleteSparrow.
An odd entry (above) from 'Sparrow' decrying that the standard of Carol singing from the six remaining choir at the cathedral on Wednesday (?) was absolutely appalling, uninspiring, mediocre unison, disappointing, tune-mumbling, inaudible etc. Now are these the same gentlemen (excepting Chris Dearden) who another contributor defended or excused from joining the walk-out as they are the ones who receive income from funds sourced? If this is the best they can do, what on earth is the cathedral doing paying them???? If they can't sing, then cancel the cheques. I can't comment further because I wasn't there - nor will I be there over Christmas. I have an old 'Grundig' crystal 'wireless' set in my Ogwen Valley potting shed and will be tuned in to King's College choir but it does seem to be an appalling shambles. Pity.
DeleteThey are paid primarily so that they do not need to undertake other work that would render them unable to come to church for the totality of the rehearsals and services required - volunteers, no matter how dedicated, cannot be presumed upon to the same extent. There is an expectation of musical quality as well, but it is a reality of many choirs that you will have voluntary members who are better vocally than some of the paid staff who form the backbone of the group. Also, none of the current paid singers are sopranos (the Chapter having cancelled all dep fees, choral scholarships and chorister bursaries), and the absence of a solid soprano line will inevitably have a noticeable impact on the sound.
DeleteWhat the currently quality of music (or lack thereof) at Bangor Cathedral currently shows is that a proper choir is much more than a sum of its parts, and the actual skill of a good choirmaster is putting these individual together and forming a cohesive whole. This is a skill that the cathedral had in Joe Cooper and which it now lacks and, I fear, will continue to lack for the foreseeable future.
I feel the phrase "be careful what you wish for" may apply.
Scarlet
If media reports are correct, Cooper was only sacked because of his alleged leaks to the media and the choir’s protest following redundancy notices. That is, the issues referred to in the now long forgotten initial reports of wrongdoing in the choir were not part of the case against him. Strange that. Or maybe not, considering the likelihood of some Cathedral priests being a part of the very same ‘drinking culture’. Have they been protected?
ReplyDeleteThen, the focus on the choir seemed to be a smokescreen for much deeper problems. And continues to be?
Deiniol’s pet springer
Absolutely,
ReplyDeleteThe Clergy have gotten away with so much these last few years. Amazing me anyone sets foot in the Diocese of Bangor anymore.
To 'Nicea
ReplyDeleteAmazing to you that people still set foot into churches any more? I don't know your purpose, but for the vast majority of faith-believing Christians, it is to enter a church (or a cathedral) to pray, thank our God for gifts given, affirm our faith, receive the Holy Communion and take heart from it. Clergy good or bad, choir good or bad, have no part in it. Attendance at churches, cathedrals, Mosques, Temples, chapels or whatever serve that purpose. Nothing to do with who leads the service or sings the Psalms. Worship has held together long before the Christian church was founded and to those committed to it will survive for light-years ahead. You obviously don't attend. Fine with us. Try the Church of Latter Day Saints. They'll make you welcome.
l
No building, Church, Cathedral or Temple is required.
Delete"Where two or more are gathered together in my name".
The hubris involved in claiming to know the thoughts, minds and motivations of "the vast majority of faith-believing Christians".
Perhaps you're very proud of being the most humble man in your Cathedral.
This ☝️
Delete🤣🤣🤣