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Another extension to facilitate commentators while the Chuech in Wales saga continues.
Please remain on topic and remember to add a pseudonym if you are commenting anonymously.
Postscript 21.10.2025
It was extremely ill-advised for the clergy at GB who proposed and supported the amendment that was passed requiring the RB to 'reflect' on its handling of the Andrew John 'retirement'. Words like 'unchristian' were actually used to describe the actions of the RB trustees (and I only speak of volunteers here) who bravely acted to end the shambolic situation.
ReplyDeleteThey did not remove John from his post. They had no power to do so. They did, however, act in their fiduciary duty as trustees to say what they might do if he did not resign. Thankfully, John saw the writing on the wall and did the right thing eventually.
The body at fault in this debacle was the BENCH not the GB. It is they who should reflect -so it was dumbfounding to see Mary Stallard speak in favour of the amendment. Deflection and projection if I ever heard it.
Well done RB, you acted within the law of the land which trumps the Constitution of the Church in Wales every time, assuming it was ever violated in this case.
Whamab
The bench and the RB are just as spineless as each other.
DeleteBalls to the lot of them, they deserve themselves.
Yes apart from having a debate without anyone from Bangor being present, having a debate without having all the facts, having a debate despite already drafting a statement. Let’s not mention the leaking of statements and information out of RB showing they cannot keep information confidential and certainly not upholding the Nolan principles and then publishing a statement which didn’t reflect the fact that the Archbishop had already resigned. Where are the resignations from RB for leaking information? Seems to me that the RB came to the party late, panicked that they hadn’t asked questions and got a grip earlier and then forced the hand of the then Archbishop. Not the behaviour one would expect either. A pox on all your houses.
DeleteWhistleblowers 1 - 0 Chocolate Teapot
DeleteGood riddance to the insipid vacuous fool. The end justified the means.
@RSS yes and John would still be Archbishop. CiW and Bangor would lurch from one crisis to another, more disrepute, more crazy decisions that were totally avoidable by any competent leader.
DeleteYou make valid points, but where was the Bench who are supposed to provide executive and spiritual leadership? It was clear to all John's leadership was untenable. I believe in fair process and the failures are serious, but they didn't change the trustees' duty in law to act.
Asking the RB to reflect is deflection and hypocrisy when everyone involved in how SRE got where he did, to do what he did and those who stood back doing and saying nothing need to reflect. The truth is the constitutional mechanisms to bring Andrew John to account for his decisions were never going to be used (bringing disrepute is a disciplinary matter as is gross incompetence). The Bench just tried to protect one of its own and closed ranks forcing the RBs hand.
Whamab
This is a genuinely open question, as I don’t already know the answer. Apart from +Llandaff, do all those who have called for this somewhat pointless ‘reflection’ have good reason to be grateful to Andrew John, or one of his episcopal protégés?
DeleteI’ve known various scandals involving senior clergy as active participants in misconduct or negligent in oversight in several of the provinces I’ve served in over a long ministry. When it’s clergy defending individuals or criticising decisive corrective actions, more often than not they’ve been motivated by one of three reasons - 1) a sincere but misguided sense of loyalty to senior clergy who have treated them well, 2) a sincere but misguided sense of lay people interfering in what should (in their view) be the sole preserve of clergy, 3) the ‘good old’ issue of ‘that’s not the way things are done round here’ - something not unique to the clergy, but not unrelated to a culture of excessive clericalism (accountability, HR processes, the law of the land etc being things that shouldn’t concern us as a church).
4) They're implicated or were complicit and have a great deal to conceal, including their involvement, from coming to light.
DeleteNot knowing who was involved in this attempt to rewrite history, it’s difficult to give a view. But there are some who certainly fear being exposed.
DeleteDeiniol’s pet springer
Medwin is rightly lauded. Legend. But what happens when another Diocese teeters with more turnover than your average Cabinet? Desperate times lead to desperate decisions, and damaging downfalls.
DeleteGwir-Adroddwr
Meanwhile in Bangor, the congregrants still 'know nuffinck'. No update on the choir, no update on 'redundancies', no update on nuffinck. OK there's a new Dean who sits in the rear pews and OK we haven't seen the Ven David Parry since his ousting as Chair of Chapter. All very well for remotes to discuss Bangor's affairs in some far-away S.Wales venue ... but oughtn't Bangorians be treated with some respect? All very well the RB and others assuring that they have Bangor in their Prayers ... but please don't pass the buck over to God's in-tray.
ReplyDeleteMushroom culture as usual?
DeleteHardly a surprise.
Bewildered
What a pity. That ball is squarely in the court of the Dean. Obviously it would take some careful handling, but any new senior person coming into a mess like that needs to give reassurance that they have the measure of it, or if they don’t they will have in a short time of familiarisation and how they propose to go about it, as indeed the new Archbishop has done. That the Dean hasn’t done that does not bode well, in my view. But then again, looking at who was on the appointment panel, I can’t say I’m surprised that at this early stage it looks like business as usual.
DeleteThe Dean still has time to prove herself but it was an odd decision to go on Radio Cymru’s Bwrw Golwg before speaking to her new congregation. Mind you, worse things have happened in Bangor over the years.
DeleteDeiniol’s pet springer
Even worse, there are so few Welsh-congregants (ie attendees of the poorly supported single weekly service) that she probably assumed no one would even notice that she'd been on BBC radio at all. There are more devoted African-Blacks and Asians with young families than there are Welsh. Perhaps a broadcast on the BBC World Service would have about as much if not more impact on Bangor ... !!!
DeleteHaving made so many enemies - clergy, congregants, staff etc - in Bangor over so few months in office as Chapter supremo, it will interesting if the loathed archdeacon, the Venerable David Parry will dare show his face at Bangor Cathedral for the installation by Archbishop Cherry Vann of Manon James in a couple of weeks time. If he does, there is good chance that the cathedral choir will simply march out again (assuming that they might by then be allowed to sing) and the congregation throw ripe and rotten Harvest Festival tomatoes. They say that the biggest bullies are also the weakest of cowards when confronted. Could be an interesting afternoon !!!
ReplyDeleteThe Archdeacon of Bangor is a fine pastor and has had to sort out a mess not his causing.
DeleteIn my opinion, he is not a fine pastor. He struggles to conduct services properly (as aptly shown on many livestreams), his sermons are limp and laced with his own opinions, which is ironic considering the narrative he pushes about protest during worship. He is not a kind man.
DeleteBenedictus.
It’s a sorry state of affairs and seems to worsening quicker than a lunar revolution! Isn’t it time that this church of ours got to grips with humility and transparency? Get on with dealing with bullies, reduce the waste, and protect what really matters. In the last month I’ve read about stipends missing in action, how many archdeacons missing or suspended (on full pay?), whilst at the same time redundancies are served in those who maintain the sung services so loved by visitors and strangers to our cathedrals - not to mention those who choose to worship there regularly. Does anybody in the Church in Wales have the ability, talent, and gifts to sort this out? Currently they don’t seem to be working hard on it - from what I can see. To those on the outside it looks damning! Are we really that close to “last one out turn off the lights”
DeleteFatigued
I agree with Y Parch in so much as the Archdeacon was faced with sorting out a situation that really should not have fallen to him to address. But I do not agree that it was not of his own making. From everything I have read, and heard from very reliable sources, he was indeed not one of the prime architects of the mess, but as a trustee of the charity in post during the period in question (either in full or in part), he bears shared responsibility for the failures in oversight that allowed those more actively involved to do such of the things alleged against them as they may have done. To put it bluntly, with adequate oversight - vocational and practical - the prime movers could not have operated in the way they did for as long as they did, or cause as much damage as they did.
DeleteGiven his clear involvement in the failings that caused the mess, it was never a good idea to ask him to lead sorting it out. Even had he had the necessary skills and experience (which I’ll come to), his credibility and independence were utterly compromised. So I feel some sympathy with him, being put in that position, but he could have refused to do it, and said it would be better to bring in someone without the conflicts of interest he had. To my knowledge, he didn’t do that. He unwisely agreed to do it. He wasn’t alone, Bishop Morris should never have chaired the Panel to appoint the new Dean. But drawing clear boundaries, handling conflicts of interest transparently and opting for genuine independence seem to be things the Diocese of Bangor has struggled with for a significant period of time.
In terms of what happened once he had greatness thrust upon him, the Archdeacon bears total responsibility for his own choices and actions, and here, in my view, he proved himself not up to the role he was given. I disagree with the critiques of his service leading and preaching - they aren’t anywhere near best practice, in my view, but they are also not inadequate. They are no worse than I have seen and heard in many places in several Anglican provinces. But I also think he seriously mishandled almost all the issues involved in beginning to address the mess.
The one thing in which I think he was absolutely right was to suspend the choir (and I assume the DoM, though I could be wrong about that) after the protest. Disrupting divine worship to turn it into public pursuit of disputes between participants can never pass without consequence, in my view, however justified the motivation for the protest. It is not the right place or time.
But even that was, in the greater part, a mess of the Archdeacon’s making. The DoM and choir made a very poor choice, in my view. But had the Archdeacon not done to them what is alleged, they would not have had reason to even consider doing such a thing.
I don’t know the Archdeacon personally or professionally. It might well be that he has a fine track record as a pastor, and indeed as a handler of problems - I don’t know, so can’t say. But in the matter of handling the mess at the Cathedral, I’m afraid he has, in my view, more than proved himself not up to the task of senior leadership - practically, pastorally or spiritually. I hope that, in time, he may be able to learn from his mistakes and rebuild his ministry. But, as with some others in this whole scenario, he may be best doing that in a different role, without the additional responsibilities, pressures and intense public scrutiny that come with seniority.
My reference wasn't to the Archdeacon in Bangor (like Fr D I couldn't comment). Instead, my reference was to the previous post mid-september regarding the missing Archdeacon of Wrexham. I don't know either of them but the latter has been in post actively for less than a year?? Suspended?? on full pay?? Whilst excellent musical traditions are suffering the scythe of redundancy.
DeleteFatigued (and Frustrated)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2j9vwvz71o
ReplyDeleteThe squalor elsewhere doesn't seem to change much, does it?
The church has to work with the people it has. One of the most stand out features of the C in W by now is the demise of intellectual prowess within it. Many reasons for this. A failure to attract clever people by now. The quality of theological education . The loss of theology departments in the universities. An over emphasise on survival at the expense of the abilty to think theologically. Would it be true to say that some who are ordained today would not make it to lay reader level some years ago? Or is that unfair? The consequences of all this is a weak leadership. Within the ranks of archdeacons and probably bishops. No one really stands out as a potential bishop for Bangor. And if you look amongst Welsh speakers the situation is dire. In many ways what happened in Bangor recently was a result of having to make do with the people that were available who were not up to the tasks. No use us shouting from the touchlines, they in the end were and are who we have.
ReplyDeleteLay Reader level?
DeleteMost would struggle to have made the grade of Sunday School teacher 60-70 years ago.
Bewildered
Up here in the Bangor diocesan hinterlands of the Ogwen and Nanlle valleys, word has it that there's a new kid on the preaching circuit pushing himself out for Harvest Festival pulpit slots as guest sermoniser. None other than the somewhat tarnished failure Andrew John now re-branded from his Llanberis-vicar-wife's parsonage as 'Rent-a-Priest'.
ReplyDeleteOne would have thought that had he any respect for the mess being mopped up in his wake, 'His Grace' would have had the grace to keep his head down for a while. As he was neither a 'theologian' nor particularly versed in the Scriptures one can only wonder what his Harvest sermons might contain. When ++Carey stepped down to move to Wales his efforts to re-engage on the Guest-Preacher circuit were shut down by the then Dean of Bangor, Alun Hawkins backed by his then Bishop, Tony Crocket. One might have hoped that Andrew John would have taken notice.
God forbid that this leaves the vestry door open for Sion ap Rhys to return in flowing silks and ermine on the celebrity platform. But ++Andy (retired/resigned/removed)?
How many Bangor Diocese popular priests of his tenure did he remove Licence or permission to preach did he ban out of spite or envy ... but no one in authority today to 'do thine likewise' to him. One can only hope that in order to supplement his P.45 income he's not charging the parishes like Llan Deiniolen and others his fees and expenses.
I’m rather surprised that’s being allowed. In most of the provinces where I’ve worked the usual convention has been Incumbents retire outside their last parish, and Diocesan Bishops outside their last Diocese. Any PTO they then have is given on the understanding they won’t exercise it within those respective contexts except in particular circumstances with permission sought from the Bishops for each occasion. Of course, some ignore the convention until they end up on the wrong end of a phone call from Diocesan HQ, but it’s there for good reason.
DeleteI wouldn’t have thought it did anyone in Bangor Diocese any good to still be having the ‘Shameless Ghost of Excessive Christmas Presents’ popping up every verse end…
If this is the convention how is it that Barry Morgan not only lives in his former diocese of Llandaff but also preaches in its churches?
DeleteNemesis
There are a number of former bishops living in their diocese. Wyn Evans, John Davies, Barry Morgan, Pierce, Dominic Walker. I think the precept that you don’t retire to your own diocese has long gone!
DeleteBlack Sheep.
Bully boy --Bazza was always a law unto himself but wherever he goes, Darth --Insidious is less welcome than a rank fart in a space suit.
DeleteYes, maybe it has in the CiW - I haven’t worked there for many a year. But in the other provinces where I have worked it remains the usual expectation, for very good reason. If you have a retiree who is an emotionally intelligent and mature person, it wouldn’t matter, as they would know not to make a show or a nuisence of themselves, especially while the new person in the role is settling in and becoming established. But when it’s the likes of Andrew John (and a few others I could name), it’s a whole different matter, I think.
Delete@ Fr Duddleswell
ReplyDeleteYour interpretation of 'conventions' is as my understanding also except of course in Bangor there is no Bishop to enforce it and no others in the C-in-W daring to challenge it. This has to fall on ++Cherry to warn parish priests off from sharing their pulpit with a former bishop of the diocese ... unless with exceptional reason. There is no one within the 'Diocesan HQ' with authority to step in except of course the delight that Asst. Bishop David Morris has apparently returned to duty looking healthy again. Perhaps he didn't know of Andrew John's freelancing around.
As most know, I live outside the cathedral circle - my potting shed and allotment garden up the Ogwen Valley being my refuge in retirement from insanity. But even in former career there was a general and enforced understanding that when senior officers 'marched out' - and especially when stripped of rank - they would not re-engage themselves. Had former archbishop John any decency about him he ought to have sought the permission (even if he still holds his own-signed licence to officiate parchment) of his archbishop to preach in any parish church in the Diocese of Bangor or indeed anywhere in Wales. Refer back to to courage of Dean Alun Hawkins and the BBC Radio 4 'Today' programme, Times and other press coverage of his action to stop George Carey from preaching at Bangor Cathedral and then Bishop Crocket's absolute backing for that decision. Sadly we don't have that senior and experienced clergy today with the same 'balls'. Shame is that Cherry Van and others purport not to read Ancient Britain so take no note of opinion. (I suspect they do, but deny it later).
Before he resigned/retired Andy John was given PTO by Archbishop Cherry. That he stated publicly to the diocese. There are theologically educated clergy in the diocese, a number holding postgraduate degrees, most working hard within their MAs trying to make the best use of the the limited resources they have at their disposal. There are things still worth celebrating and thanking God for in the diocese, but most of these things were not noted under the previous regime.
ReplyDelete@ Y Parch - thank you, that explains the PTO situation - I smell having PTO being part of the ‘requested’ terms of the departure deal. If deposing him as Archbishop and Diocesan Bishop rested on this in full or in part, granting it was definitely the right thing to do, in pragmatic greater good reasoning, much as him still being active in ministry in the Diocese is not a good thing.
Deletehttps://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c3vz2nkvq9vo
ReplyDeleteThe Church in Wales knew of the abuse taking place and did.......... nothing.
Business as usual.
My apologies for re-entering the chat ref former ++ John's pulpit-revival-tour of parish churches, but as it was I who introduced it, so might I be excused.
ReplyDeleteMet today with a lovely old chap of unquestionable faithfulness by tradition to the Eglwys yn Cymru who defending the Diocese of Bangor in closing a blind eye to resigned ++John's 'Archbishop on Pulpit Preaching Tour' re-birth said 'Well Bill, it's not surprising really. We just don't have enough clergy in the area these days'. Then he scratched his head, thought a moment and added: '.... problem is of course that it was that bloke Andy who either sacked the best of them or put other new boys off from wanting to come to North Wales in the first place'
Encore dear chap. Within weeks of becoming Bishop of Bangor Andrew John not only sacked his popular Bishop's Chaplain & Secretary the Rev. Emyr Parry but sought legal action to evict him and his children out of his Vicarage. By my conservative count, another 47 ordained priests have been thrust out or wisely quit the diocese under his tenure. It's not surprising that some parish vicars with empty Harvest Festival pulpits now need to sump the dregs of the pond to find a slug of a man to preach.
Priority job for Archbishop Cherry might be to write to all those priests who quit the diocese because of Andrew John's appalling behaviour to write to them apologising and to assure than Bangor is now a better place (?) should they wish to return. It's the right thing to do.
The former bishop has not offered to come to any of my churches. I am not sure that many of my clergy colleagues are inviting him. I imagine he is preaching in his wife's MA.
ReplyDeleteAmazing how now such criticism of Bishop John emerges. You were all very quiet during his tenure. And please don t say you were frightened. There is such a thing as courage. He was not the best choice, neither was he the worse. Long ago during the electoral college he was chosen to stop Meurig Llwyd Williams. Aided by two key people, one of them by now on Merseyside. He was not the only bishop to adopt the ill thought out and ultimately disastrous Harris Report that instigated the Mission Areas debacle which basically burns clergy out and turns them into managers. Bishop John did not do any of this alone. Others agreed with him. One of the present archdeacons has put his own name forward to become the next bishop. Yes in the end the bishop should carry the can but there were many hands on the handle. Hypocrisy, suggests itself. As I have said before, you deal with the church you have not with the one you’d like. So much of the present criticism smacks of a form of Donatism. Bishop John s legacy probably will be the Llwybr Cadfan initiative ably run by Elin Owen and others and of real relevance and appeal to so many, most of them non church attenders. Not a bad legacy that one. Something he can really be proud of. And as for him being able to officiate in the diocese. Of course he can.
ReplyDeleteIf you'd bothered reading this blog you would have picked up on criticism of the chocolate teapot virtually from the day he was appointed.
DeleteBewildered
I would love to think that Gerwhine is seeing this vacancy in see as a way to elevate himself to the rigors of being +Bangor
Delete"You were all very quiet during his tenure".
DeleteDid you read Ancient Briton's blog anytime during the last decade??
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
🤡,🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡
Didn t stand a chance then did he, poor guy
ReplyDeleteNo more than did your false claims that we were all very quiet during his tenure.
DeleteIs that you Andy, or one of his wives?🤔
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c2lxyxqzxkdo
ReplyDeleteThe entirely predictable and expected DEI tick box appointment has been announced.
What a joke.
I have no strong view on the appointment of Sarah Mullally to Canterbury, I have far more pressing things nearer home to deal with, although with the state of the CofE, along with CiW and others, I do wonder how relevant the appointment really is. Nevertheless, I certainly wish her well.
ReplyDeleteThe only point of interest for me is that she served as Canon Treasurer of Salisbury Cathedral from 2012 to 2015. The Dean of Salisbury at that time was, of course, the truly awful June Osborne, subsequently Bishop of Llandaff and we all know what happened under her watch here in this diocese, a debacle from which many here think we will never recover.
JP
I take deep exception to her appointment.
DeletePriested in 2006 but ABC by 2025?
Just who the hell is she shagging?
No male priest would/could climb the greasy pole so quickly!!!!
DuckingFisgusting.
Well Justin was only 20 years between ordination and ABC so I don’t see any material difference for the new ABC with 19 years 🙄. Who the hell was Justin sleeping with ??
DeleteIf it was up to Welby, Paula Vennells would have got the job.
DeletePerhaps that's the answer to your question?
Bewildered
My guess would be ‘nobody they shouldn’t be’ in both cases, much as I find it distasteful to many any comment about this in respect of either of them. Bewildered points you to what is really going on.
DeleteIn the C of E there has been a huge shift away from how things were when I went to theological college - a basic assumption that nothing you knew about or had done outside the Church before coming to College would be of any use to you at all in ministry - to ‘transferable skills’ being equivalent or superior to anything you learn as a priest. In my view, there is absolutely nothing wrong in recognising and making good use of knowledge and experience gained in other contexts. But where it has gone wrong in the C of E is they have largely forgotten the issue of uniqueness - what the Church and a priest are and are for. That bit calls for a totally different lens through which to view, interpret and use knowledge and skills gained in other contexts. So they have rapidly promoted people with little pastoral acumen and/or who are theologically inept, but who have skills and experience that makes them seem credible in the eyes of other external professionals.
To some degree, that’s always been true - many of the great scholar priests and bishops were utterly atrocious pastors, and pastors often got overlooked in favour of public school headmasters and Oxbridge fellows when it came to appointing bishops. But a majority of them were not also theologically inept and had a good understanding of the unique elements of priestly ministry and the Church.
Sadly, in too many quarters today ‘priesthood’ has been reduced to ‘leadership’ and the two are not synonymous. This isn’t, in my view, a simple question of which church tradition dominates. It is more a question of the various professions having eroded the traditional roles of a priest in a community in many ways and the C of E rushing to try to stay relevant, instead of embracing its ‘uniqueness/oddness’ and continuing to value rigorous theology and capable pastoral care alongside recognising much needed skills and insights from other professions.
My question was today on hearing the announcement was this: how influential was Mary Stallard in the appointment? Did her vote swing Mullally into the 2/3rds majority required?
ReplyDeleteWhy is this relevant you may ask, well Stallard was Assistant Bishop in Bangor at exactly the time SRE's alleged malfeasance was at its height. Was she responsible for his oversight as Bishop principally tasked with the day to day running of the diocese when Andy John was acting in his duties as metropolitan? Has she by her acts and omissions some resposibility to bear on the current disaster that is the diocese and cathedral church of Bangor?
If so, should she have been appointed to represent Wales on the CNC? And if she made a material difference when she shouldn't have been there; has a series of poor judgment calls due to the alleged conduct of SRE, led to the appointment of Sarah Mullally as the 106th Archbishop of Canterbury? Just wondering?
Whamab
I only know three clergy in the Diocese of London and all three are delighted that she's heading off down the River Thames to Canterbury ... thus freeing up the London See to a deserving bishop.
Delete@Ad Clerum
DeleteWhat a bitter comment (along with the rest of the bitter old queens that fill this spiteful page) I wonder who these three lone clergy are? +Sarah has been respected and admired both as +London and +Crediton and in previous roles. Shes a fine pastor and preacher and unlike many actually cares about people and parishes. She’s fully supportive of society parishes/clergy and a true example of Mutual Flourishing. A happy day for the CofE and Anglican Communion and a true breath of fresh air.
Truth
@ 'Truth'
DeleteI doubt very much that you are either a 'Priest' or if so, certainly not a priest in the Diocese of London I will refer your comment to those who served under Dame Sarah for their response if they can be bothered. No bitterness from me, just relay of comments from the Diocese she served; two of them quite senior. Glad that she's moving on to enable the Dioc. of London to return to basics. The God Bit,
Women however must stick together though eh 'Truthy'?
@ Ad Clerum
DeleteWhat a pathetic reply, sure you’re not bitter? The Diocese of London has “done God” truly well under +Sarah. Strange how you (and other nasty blokes) choose to ignore the good she has achieved.
It’s not about women “sticking together”
It a shame the sad, bitter, and twisted old prats that fill this page can’t put as much effort into contributing positively to the life of the church as they do here sitting behind the safety of their screens. But oh yes, it’s the women and the gays who have “killed” the church.
It’s about time the low life’s of this page got out into the real world instead of stirring up bitter hatred.
Truth
…and yet you contribute in like form, Truth. I can’t speak for anybody else, but for my own part, I am neither bitter, nor am I an ‘old queen’, not that I have anything against those who are either or both of those things. Oh, and for the record, I am pro women and pro gay also. Beware of behaving like those you seek to call out!
DeleteSorry AB, could you please edit my last one to correct ‘old queen’ to ‘old prat’? This old prat misremembered Truth’s insult!!
DeleteSorry Fr. D I am unable to edit comments. I believe commentators are able to delete their own comments.
DeleteLovely to hear that Asst.Bishop David Morris was back, robed and healthy from his official business in Australia serving the 'host' communion at Bangor cathedral today laying to rest all manner of silly rumours.
ReplyDeletePerhaps not so welcome was announcement that the 'choir' is being allowed back again (but perhaps not their director of music who remains under disciplinary investigation). This just when the congregants had got used to singing their own favourite, traditional hymns and reciting precis versions of Psalms and not having to languish through odd-ball and often garish hymn-tunes and lengthy Psalm chantings to tuneless metric singing. So, first tiny-steps towards normality ... but will normality ever be the same again at Bangor?
If what you have heard is accurate, the only comment I have is I’m pretty appalled that the DoM remains under disciplinary investigation whilst all the clergy implicated in the various allegations raised about the scandals (including your beloved Bishop Morris) continue without investigation. For the avoidance of doubt, I am not saying investigating the DoM is without merit - I offer no comment on that - but I find the difference in approach very telling and utterly inappropriate.
DeleteIt’s very clear that the choir are being used to scapegoat and obfuscate much of the wrongdoing by clergy. If the chapter and new dean truly cared about bringing the choir back, they would drop this investigation, or as you suggest, investigate everyone else.
DeleteBenedictus.
It wouldn't be the first time the Cathedral Choir has been the scapegoat for the dismal failings of a Chapter in a Welsh Cathedral, would it?
DeleteHarold, of course not. I suppose the difference is that the choir at Bangor has rightfully stood up for itself in an outspoken way, and challenged the chapter, and that has hurt the egos of many, so there is increased pushback.
DeleteBenedictus
Rubbish.
DeleteWhich Cathedral Choir "rightfully stood up" for themselves "in an outspoken way, and challenged the chapter" more than the four Llandaff Cathedral Lay Clerks who initiated an employment tribunal in 2012?
There was and is no bigger ego than that of His --Darkness bully boy Morgan.
Where was John Pockett then?
You may well be right Fr. Duddleswell (is that from Arthur Lowe?). The entire 'Chapter' (and those of influence sitting outside it) of the SRE era ought still come under the microscope but of course as they all apart from ++Andy John occupy their cathedral 'Stalls' there's fat chance of that happening. And this should also include the Diocesan Registrar, the fees-charging legal overseer, who was either blinkered or inept.
ReplyDelete+Morris, I understand, was drawn on the rack by his fellow Bench of Bishops for what they accused had been his involvement of the '7 Shots' in the Bangor pub. Fact is, he had joined the choir earlier for a drink but had left long before the incident. I am sure some competent, professional, external 'investigator' acting to examine the saga would establish the truth. Embarrassing if any such 'collective' enquiry were to be launched is that the pub in question still has the CCTV record of the alleged event. +Morris is not on it. Odd that the RB/Bench inquisitors haven't popped in to ask for Staff witness statements ... or the CCTV images.
+Bardsey has said he is moving on, so let this lie now. He's made it public that his mental health has suffered because of all this and he's now seeking a new ministry outside of the Diocese. Another casualty of all that's happened at Bangor, sadly.
DeleteDimitte et obliviscere
I can well imagine Dimitte et that this is true: and yet another of a worrying number of devoted, popular, priests to throw in the towel and quit Bangor leaving our diocese bereft of any talent. There is of course that cadre of 'Old Guard' elderly, retired priests who willingly and generously stand in to keep some of the remaining doors open, but these are few and far between. David should not just be seeking a new ministry outside of the Diocese - but for his sanity and happiness, outside Wales.
DeleteBangor is a shit hole just like the rest of the swamp.
DeleteDrain the lot.
>> Dimitte et obliviscere [above]
DeleteThe pseudonym sounds Latin, but in fact: French. Drop it. Let the matter go. Few of the clergy or perhaps AB contributing bloggers are that skilled in French. But I wholly agree. Asst.Bishop David was served a duff-hand and then hung out to dry by his peers. Yes, we ought all to focus on those who stocked up with bum wiping toilet paper and not on the scapegoats of Bangor and Llandaff's torrid and pathetic opinion-formers. Let's wish +David well and celebrate his energy in Anglican communion mission and ministry. There's a lot to be learned from reading St Mark's gospels.
@ Solum et et et… Thank you for your opinions. You present certainly one way of looking at Bishop Morris’ progress in the Diocese and his actions. Whilst sharing your opinion about wishing him well for the future, I take a different view. We are all accountable for our choices and actions, and whilst, I’m told, he is undoubtedly energetic and can be very personable, at least some of that energy would seem to have been expended in the pursuit of preferment. As to being dealt a ‘duff hand’ then yes and no. He was very unwise to throw his lot in so squarely with the former Subdean (before they so spectacularly fell out, leading to the latter’s downfall) and with the former Archbishop, and those were his free choices. Allegedly, he was very unwise to accept the largesse of the former Subdean through attendance at parties, and on trips abroad. To put it bluntly, he could have said no.
DeleteSome of us have to adhere to various principles of public life in the work we do. In that, how we are seen by others is as important as what is actually the case - we have to avoid creating the impression of collusion and corruption as well as avoiding the reality of being involved. That rests on discerning what is the appropriate thing to do for one in our position and to say no to anything that may compromise doing it.
So whilst I agree that Bishop Morris seems not to have been one of the principal architects of the Bangor scandals, his actions and choices appear to not be free from implication in some of them (not simply the ridiculous 7 shots issue). For a Bishop that is not a good reflection, and in my view should not be just ‘let lie’ because he has chosen to move on, much as I have sympathy if his mental health has suffered. I, for one, have no desire to persecute - just to raise issues of accountability that in my view can’t be dodged by those in senior office.
I hope Bishop Morris has reflected at length and learned from his mistakes, as only that way will he not repeat them in the future. I also hope his future ministry outside Bangor will not involve senior office for the time being, as pursuing preferment so determinedly seems to be what has led him into difficulty - being promoted before his character has been properly prepared for senior office. It may also be that he was promoted beyond his ability - I don’t know - but even if able, a person needs to be ready for senior office. So often they are not when they get it, so they need to learn - quickly.
I don't disagree.
DeleteDimitte et obliviscere
The entire Church in Wales is a cess pit of corruption.
ReplyDeleteLet it go broke.
ReplyDeleteTo see the entire Church in Wales as ‘a cess pit of corruption’ is deeply unfair on the hundreds of clergy and laypeople in parishes who seek to follow Jesus and try to be ‘steadfast in faith and active in service’.
Cymro Alltud
And where do you suggest they may be?
DeleteThe "steadfast in faith and active in service" left decades ago.
All that is left are the gullible.
Bewildered
Stop complaining about the CinW. You obviously hate it. Get off this blog and get a life.
Delete@ Celt
DeleteI suspect I speak for all when I say none of us 'hate' the Church-in-Wales otherwise we'd have no interest in the Ancient Briton site. What we might loathe (although not hate) are the buffoons who run it. A big and important difference.
And presumptious of you too to assume the role of Ancient Briton's 'proprietor' to instruct who should 'GET OFF THIS SITE'. Only AB has the editorial control over who and who not to unplug (as he has often done).
Cheeky bloody madam.
Surely teacher's milk monitor means get off this blog and get an afterlife??🤷🤷🤦🤦
Delete🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡
@ Old Bill
ReplyDeleteMadam, you can only speak for yourself.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteWhy is this blog so full of personal, vitriolic comments that are hardly ever supported by an iota of hard evidence? I see so much utterly egregious, throw away rubbish on here, invariably hiding behind a pseudonym. If you have something to say, please have some courage and put your name to it. If there are any replies to this, I shan't be responding I have better things to do with my time. JP
ReplyDeleteAnd yet, here you are.
Delete🤣🤣🤣
Yet a certain someone had plenty to say about June Osbourne - personally. I suppose one must bat for one's team, Batty Boy.
ReplyDeleteAnon and Anon
Odd that none of the Bangor contributors have reported on today's Diocesan Conference at the cathedral chaired I read by Archbishop ++Cherry. There surely must have been some eye-openers to report or even creep-like apologies from the cassock-hem clingers. As a priest still PTO in the diocese, was Rev Andrew John and his vicarette wife there in the pews as would be expected of diocesan clergy ... surely the Bangor scribes have some news of events? Was wine served after the Installation of the Dean as was common or was it dry in terms of both drinks and content? I'd already laid a £10 bet that the unpopular Ven. David Parry wouldn't dare show his face at St. Deiniol's under current climate. Apparently I'd have won ... but on the excuse that he has jetted off to meet his new born grand-daughter somewhere in darkest Africa. Yeah?
ReplyDeleteThe installation of the new Dean of Bangor was splendid. Her sermon was personal yet erudite. The Archbishop challenged and encouraged the diocese. The organ was played superbly and the congregation sang with great gusto. A beautiful Anglican act of worship as the diocese came together, with friends, and began to look towards a hopeful future with Christ at its centre.
ReplyDeleteThe Archdeacon of Bangor was always going to be away in October for the birth of his grandchild. Why is there a need to be petty about this? Rejoice at her safe arrival. It was a great conference and a beautiful service that reflected the best of Bangor Diocese: humble and rooted in Wales and the Welsh language.
ReplyDeleteI would be someone who had my doubts too about Cherry Vann as archbishop. On yesterday's visit; she has the making of an exceptional archbishop.
Oh, what a radiant occasion it was! The installation of the new Dean, Manon, was a truly holy and uplifting celebration, deepl rooted in the richness of Anglican tradition, yet alive with fresh hope and vision. Manon’s sermon struck a rare balance: both intellectually stirring and personally heartfelt, speaking to the soul and the mind alike. And with the Archbishop offering both challenge and encouragement, the moment surely resonated as one of renewal.
ReplyDeleteThe music, too - what a joy! A superbly played organ and a congregation singing with such gusto filled the space with a spirit of unity and praise that was tangible. Good to have +David back with us, looking relaxed and so well.
I was very deeply moved by a sense of Diocese gathered in one voice, turning together toward the future with Christ firmly at our heart. Truly a shining moment of grace, communion, and sheer promise - an unforgettable beginning to a new chapter in the life of the Diocese of Bangor.
Joy
Dw i'n cytuno. I agree without reservation
DeleteHow many of you were there?
DeleteDid you manage double figures?
Very strange there are no links to photographic evidence for independent verification or published communicant numbers.
Bewildered
What a pair of suck-ups and buttock kissers.
DeleteSickening 🤢🤮
"Deep rooted in the richness of Anglican tradition"?
DeleteUtter codswallop.
Priestesses have proven to be a curse and definitely not a blessing.
The growth of --Bazza's coven has proven to be in direct proportion to the diminution of the Church, the numbers don't lie but they're certainly being concealed by the RB, as are communicant numbers.
All heading in one direction ⬇️
There's a video of the service on the Cathedral's website.
DeleteStrange then that the Pantomime Horses 🐴 back ends above didn't think to provide a link to support their manure?
DeleteBewildered
Bewildered - are you too lazy to go on the Cathedral Website and find it for yourself. Lazybones. You'd have enjoyed the service. Uplifting, inspirational and prophetic. Simply joyous. Ruth, stay away, nasty!
DeleteJoy
Most easily found by looking at their Youtube channel.
DeleteDefinitely too disinterested but also have far better things to do with my time.
DeleteIt's usually the norm for those making the claims to provide the evidence in support of them.
Bewildered
@"Joy"
DeleteJust who do you think you are, trying to order/bully people to stay away?
There's only one response for such jumped up little Corporals, championed both by Winston Churchill and Harvey Smith.
Sorry to spoil the Installation BAFTAs and Oscars - which I am sure were 'lovely-darling' - along with the excellent news that the congregation sings in gusto when not drowned out by a costly and self-serving choir, but I was actually asking about the far more important (to both Diocese and the CinW) event of the Diocesan Conference .... or was that just an irrelevant warm-up act to the main event??
ReplyDeleteMe too. I'd like to know. But curiously, the more important Diocesan Conference detailing finances, diocesan staffing, facts and figures, wasn't - unlike the Installation of Dean - recorded for home-viewing Youtube or Zoom etc consumption by the faithful. And I have heard that many who pre-registered found that on arrival their e.mailed registrations had gone amiss so no voting cards for them. Two of the more awkard Q+As left to last by which time, oh dear, Conference had run out of time .... but why not the critical Bangor Conference made available live when Manon's rehearsed service was so lavishly managed? Who is the biggest audience: the people of Bangor Cathedral and Bro Deiniol, or the entire Diocese and Province of Wales?
DeleteTo “An Observer”, and others. It should be noted that the congregation singing “with gusto” was largely thanks to the many members of the choir who were singing in the congregation…
DeleteBenedictus
The Annual Report and Archbishop's address are available online: https://bangor.eglwysyngnghymru.org.uk/Cynhadledd2025/. The full DBF Annual Report is required to be submitted to the Charity Commission by the end of this month. The Diocesan Trust has a different accounting year and need not be submitted until January.
DeleteI think this faux joy is a little misplaced at Bangor Cathedral. Yes it is a new era (presuming the new Bishop is a sensible choice), but showing some sincere contrition might have been better way to go.
ReplyDeleteWhamab
Yes, Bangor Cathedral has a good steady hand a the helm, from what I've heared, there are aspects of the choir's conduct and ego which needs to be addressed and the dubeous heretical Welsh used for the Cathedral's Evening Prayer bought in by SRhE, as opposed to using the official 1664 or 1984 Welsh liturgy. Also there are questions regarding the appointment of that pons as Sub Dean. Was he covering something up for Andy John in return for his ordination?! Just a passing thought.
ReplyDeleteGrumpy
I think Grumpy Anonymous you raise valid points.
ReplyDeleteI wonder how many of us will commit ourselves to the Novena of Prayer that is asked of us from All Saints Day to the Enthronement on 8 November. It is a welcome challenge and change, and who knows what God can do when the church commits itself to pray.
The suggestion in the recent link that "millions" are leaving the CofE and that in consequence it is "rattled" is of course quite wide of the mark. If some overseas Anglican provinces are separating themselves from the Mother Church that makes the statement true insofar as their total number of adherents will amount to "millions", but it should be borne in mind that the decision to separate will have been taken not by the "millions" as individuals but on their behalf by their leaders. Yes, a few (mostly evangelical) members of the CofE are joining splinter groups which may be affiliated to Gafcon, but this will hardly be significant enough to "rattle" what's left of the CofE.
ReplyDelete@ Matthew
ReplyDeleteSurely, Matthew, 'cause and affect' comes into play when calculating migration from one movement of members/congregants from one denomination or branch of a denomination to another. Think of the exodus of 'established' church to the growth of the nonconformist Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterian or indeed the mass-exodus of Romans to Henry VIII 'CofE' or the flight from Rome in Germany to Lutherism ... it matters not whether its the 'adherents' or their 'leaders' who lead the desertion or the causes thereof; its the effect it has on the 'established' CinW or CofE in terms of destabilising the 'gig' that quite rightly 'rattles' the leadership and strategists. Cause rather than effect ought to be their priority.
*Old Bill: The "millions" although notionally in communion with it are not members of the CofE, so whether they make individual decisions to break communion or are directed to do so by their leaders is neither here nor there. The CofE (such as it is) remains its present size, except for those transferring to splinter groups.
DeleteManchester Pride has gone bust.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cpwvdvv70z7o
Excellent.
Best news this month.
It will be interesting to see if the charity commissioners pull their fingers out for a change and do their jobs.
DeleteBewildered
Emergency GB called to discuss appointment of Bishop of Bangor
ReplyDeleteOfficial announcement (with link to Archbishop's letter) here: https://www.churchinwales.org.uk/en/news-and-events/revised-proposals-for-appointment-of-bishop-of-bangor/. I wonder who might be chosen for this unenviable task -- a retired CinW bishop, or someone from outside?
DeleteGregory to Bangor just before he retires and Gerwhine to Asaph? More dismay?
DeleteFinally, common sense and wise judgment. Well done ++Cherry and the GB. Let’s hope they will now appoint a capable recently retired diocesan Bishop (preferably from outside the CiW) or second a capable suffragan. Unfortunately, there aren’t that many to choose from, and no doubt many of the good choices would not want the hassle of dealing with the aftermath of Andrew John and Siôn Rhys-Evans, and the sub-standard hangers on still in post. But however difficult it proves to find somebody, it’s the right move to avoid the possibility of a poor substantive appointment.
DeleteI agree with you wholeheartedly, Fr D, though we do need the right person in post. No one with any connection with Bangor during John’s time should be considered. An outsider to Wales would indeed be preferable.
DeleteBut so far ABW has made some very promising moves. Her theological reflection on the Bangor crisis during her diocesan conference was a devastating critique of John’s time there (pruning the vine!). She has been very open about her feelings about things and this new development just underlines how bad she considers things are in the diocese.
Any news about the charity commission investigation?
Deiniol’s pet springer
Yay! The return of +Barry Morgan to Bangor....
ReplyDeleteWhamab
As desirable as that would be, His --Darkness Bazza would never leave Llys Ego in Whitchurch, unfortunately.
DeleteThe Archbishop’s letter pretends to offer calm, measured governance — but the subtext is embarrassingly political.
ReplyDeleteShe chooses to:
• Paint the Diocese as unstable and unready for a permanent bishop
• Stall the Episcopal appointment
• Stall the Diocesan Secretary recruitment
• Harp on “governance, finance, and leadership” deficiencies
—all to spin a story of dysfunction that conveniently justifies the RB’s meddling and Bishop Andy’s removal. No evidence, no transparency, and no mention that Bangor has operated without a Diocesan Secretary for 18 months.
The Diocese knows the truth: the absence of a Secretary caused many of the very problems now being cited. The solution is obvious — fill the post properly. Not parachute in an “interim bishop” propped up by the same exhausted team that’s been left under-resourced and leaderless.
The RB let the vacancy drift for nearly two years. Governance frayed — now they use that decay as proof of diocesan failure. That’s not leadership. That’s gaslighting.
Appointing Joanna Thomas, with no DS experience, on a temporary basis only extends the dysfunction.
Can you hear us, RB?
We see this for what it is: a power grab dressed up as pastoral care.
The Electoral College did its work — profiles, advertising, candidate sounding — yet suddenly the Diocese is “not ready” to elect. Why? No reason given.This isn’t due diligence. It’s outcome management.
It paints Bangor’s clergy and laity as incompetent to mask central interference.
So let’s be clear:
Will the clergy at the Extraordinary GB finally stand up to the Provincial Team — to the Eye of Sauron in Cardiff — and say no more?
No more punishment.
No more rule from the centre.
No more politics disguised as care.
No more lies and hypocrisy.
No more telling a diocese what it needs while ignoring its people.
No more silence.
No more fear.
Woe to the Bench for your silence.
Woe to the RB for your betrayal.
Woe to the Archbishop for protecting the institution’s image at the expense of Bangor’s integrity.
-Cut To The Chase.
The Bangor onnishambles has provided the ideal opportunity to put into action the recommendations of the Harries report and start merging Dioceses.
DeleteAmalgamate Bangor with St. Asaph and be done with it.
... and get rid of half the archdeacons of both diocese while you're at it.
Delete@CCTC - I completely agree that the Diocese should not have been left to drift for so long after SRE’s disappearing act, but that was down to Andrew John, and his capacity for making good decisions has been laid bare for the world to see. Other than that, I have a huge amount of sympathy for the good, committed laity and clergy there will no doubt be in Bangor, and who deserve to be properly supported and resourced in their ministries. But for as long as people implicated in the scandals remain in senior posts there, and there is potential for someone linked to it all to be elected Bishop, I concur with the Archbishop that the Diocese is not ready. I also think it is hugely unfair to expect a newly appointed Bishop of Bangor to sort it all out and then live with the consequences of the inevitable ill feeling that comes from whichever quarter feels hard done by in the sorting out process for the rest of their ministry there. I have undertaken troubleshooter roles like this on parish and deanery levels, and it is far more productive most of the time to sort out major problems in a time limited appointment. Then the new person can come in, unsullied by the sorting out process, and start on an even keel.
DeleteAnnounced yesterday that the UK Police Service (at national level) has appointed a somewhat tough-nut Major-General (Commandant of the RMA Sandhurst) to spearhead a total review of senior management appointments, discipline, leadership etc. across the Police service.
DeleteBangor's recovery? Shoot the Bishops. BRING IN THE ARMY !!!!
@An Observer
DeleteOnly half of the Archdemons?
Can you name even one half-decent one?
Both @Lux et Veritas and @An Observer offer common sense solutions. Anyone know if the GB and RB are listening or even aware?
ReplyDeleteMerging the two Dioceses would also result in considerable savings to be made over duplication of jobs in the Diocesen Boards of Finance, the Parsonage Boards, Widows and Dependents Funds and so on.
DeleteHowever, the smart money says Cherry doesn't have the balls to do it.
Ruff'n'tumble
DeleteNot to mention the revenue income from the sale of the now over-sized, totally under-utilised, extravagantly refurbished (huge cost) by SRE, Bangor city centre 'Diocesan Office/Centre' which has asset value. Its current use is as storeroom for the Diocesan photocopier and small offices for a much reduced number of staff who work part-time. Even after spending thousands on it in some grand plan of his, Sion ap Rhys then decamped to set up his own office as Diocesan Secretary in his grace and favour Deanery. Person of same grandeur as de-frocked Prince Andrew. Sale of the diocesan centre for redevelopment as a bespoke business-class hotel would bring in immediate revenue (and halt the ongoing and huge costs of maintenance). Ditto St.Asaph probably. Then the two combine and rent an affordable Joint small 'CinW Branch Office' midway and accessible to all in somewhere like Conwy.
Who could this interim bishop be? Someone has probably been asked already, at least approached. That’s how it works. The GB meeting is a foregone conclusion. One or two objections perhaps. Could Paul Davies be persuaded to return? Is he the one they have in mind? Not sure of the wisdom But behind all of this I suspect that the two years will be ample time for the bishop in waiting. She being Manon James.
ReplyDeleteLovely thought Rhigyfarch, but wishful thinking. Anyone who knows Paul Davies will know he is blissfully happy in Dorking (Dioc. of Guildford) and the probability that wild horses wouldn't draw him back to Bangor. Why would he want to ...?
DeleteAs someone who actively participated in covering up the circumstances of Sue Jones’s removal from office, Paul Davies would the worst possible choice. He was far too close to John.
DeleteDeiniol’s pet springer
The obvious person to be interim Bishop of Bangor is Beverley Mason, who retired as Bishop of Warrington on1 October and who, I believe, lives in North Wales. She has the experience of having been acting Bishop of Liverpool during the previous vacancy.
ReplyDeleteOf course if the interim bishop has to be fluent in Welsh the only retired bishop under 75 years of age who meets that criterion is, as far as I can see, Carl Cooper.
Cymro Alltud
What's "fluent in adultery" in Welsh?🤔
Delete🤣🤣
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cp8evd7vl6ro
ReplyDelete"If we don't have Pride, what else do we have?"
Precisely.
Nothing.
I couldn't possibly have put it better myself!
Isn't it appalling that the level of compassion and pastoral care (or uncaring) in the Diocese of Bangor has stooped so low - despite glowing assurances of positive change - that no announcement was made at the cathedral yesterday, or even included in staff internal weekly newsletters, of the recent death of the Very Reverend Alun Hawkins; the last of any decent deans Bangor has had. Not a squeek. Its akin to some former USSR Politburo era, his name has already been erased. Not even a mention in the intercessions in prayers for the recently deceased.
ReplyDeleteFor those who knew him and highly respected him as a friend and priest, his funeral is planned to be November 22 at the cathedral.
Agree completely but why are you so surprised?
DeletePastoral care is non-existent in Llandaff too and has been for many years.
Indeed Ceri Llan. This is quite appalling. Alun who was such a lovely presence . But that is how it is. No sense of continuity, history or being part of a tradition. So many newcomers who have no idea what and who were here before they came. Who carries the history of the diocese. Hardly anyone.
DeleteIf I remember correctly @ Ceri Llan, his name was mentioned on the previous Sunday. In the notices before the service. It doesn’t appear to be on the livestream though.
DeleteApologies - I forgot to add a pseudonym.
DeleteObliviate
Quite awful Ceri Llan. Who now carries the history of the diocese. Who can say now Others have laboured ….. No sense of a past, nor a continuity, nor of tradition. Alun was such a lovely presence.
ReplyDeleteIf true - and I can believe it - total disrespect and of the clergy aloofness which contributes to the gradual exodus of faithful worshippers most of who would have known Alun Hawkins both personally and as Priest. I actually knew of Alun's death earlier: posted on the Rotarians website who, unlike the Cathedral, paid their fulsome tribute to him. Someone from the Cathedral - starting perhaps with the new Dean who promises absolute change in attitude - should explain their arrogance, their unloving and uncaring and look not to safeguarding their own feelings, but the feelings of their congregants. Diabolical. Let's hope that Alun's funeral the cathedral is packed to demonstrate how by their shameful inactions 'Dean and Chapter' again got this terribly wrong. So much for a new future for Bangor. Phafff.
DeleteTo be blunt, the mistake you're all making is that you think the current shower should, and do, give a sh1t.
DeleteThey should but they don't and they won't!
Wake up and smell the coffee.
Bewildered
Doubtless the excuse will be the cathedral clergy couldn't announce Alun's death due to Data Protection Act and as he has died, they haven't received his consent form to release an announcement!!!! Perhaps even that there have been three funked Deans since Alun - Costic Sue, Car-Crash Kath and the fake-Pope plonker Rhys - the new lot don't even know who he was. I agree previous: he was a sometimes awkward, fire-tempered, theatrical ... but 99% a very decent and honourable priest and friend.
ReplyDeleteCaustic or Cyanide Sue, please!
DeleteMy apologies. The clue is in the name: 'Old' Bill. My typing fingers are not what they used to be ... and my laptop spell checker is even older!
DeleteAny news from St.Asaph?
ReplyDeleteCurious
Some parts are in meltdown. Lack of leadership from the top down.
ReplyDeleteI'll second that!
DeleteI am not in the least doubting you, but can you explain the lack of leadership? In practice how does it cash out? Is the leadership living an illusion that somehow everything is fine but clearly nothing is. And they lack the courage to say that. Some would want to argue that because the church did this and that eg. ordination of women people walked away. All this is nonsense. It is a trend in the deeply secular Western world. Which may by now have reached a plateau. But Wales remains a very secular country indeed. Are we ignoring all this. And that the leadership is as much at sea as the rest of us, but are pretending otherwise because they think they have to. Real leadership would take the risk of showing how bad it all is and begin the climb back slowly from there.
ReplyDeleteI'm hoping that Bishop Joanna will make her come back. No Tories left anymore to either trust or distrust, so that ship has sailed. She'd make a great interim Bishop of Bangor.
ReplyDeletePew Bangor
Leadership may defined in many ways, however, one thing that must be on show when defining Leadership is a measure of success or failure. Regardless of whether it is the Bishop's Leadership that is being called into question or that of the GB/RB, the good people of God within the CinW need to know what is going on!
ReplyDeleteThe CofE has recently published its Statistics for Mission for 2024, where is the equivalent report in Wales? Whilst there are some encouraging positive trends in the CofE, how would we know in Wales? We must know! Dismayed.
Lack of leadership and discernment?
ReplyDeleteBlame the tree eater.
Who in their right mind would bring back the mincing Capon from Thaxted when it took Caiaphas three years to get rid of him?
Rum pansies all around 🍹🍹🍹
Not only the cult in Wales has a lunatic fringe.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4gj927l64qo
Bewildered
Kernow above (Oct. 23 at 17.48) might know as he appears to have inside info but what was +Gregory of St Asaph doing in Bangor (waddling around the perimeter of the cathedral as if taking stock of things) on 30 October morning?? Sussing it out? With due deference to the chap, his sheer proportions make it difficult for him to become 'low profile'
ReplyDeleteThere's bound to be a good explanation but curiosity killed the cat ... and the C-in-W isn't highly regarded for being truthful. Just curious.
Mr Creosote.
Delete"I'll 'ave the lot!"
Sorry 'An Observer', no real insider knowledge, just keeping a very close ear to the ground and reading between the lines. What you report doesn't surprise me at all, but I fear for what might follow in St Asaph if +Asaph moves to Bangor rather than subsuming it into Asaph! Could be more dismay!
DeleteCombining Diocese?
ReplyDeleteStrong possibility.
DeleteStrong possibility
DeleteGB motion re Bangor includes following clause
ReplyDeleteSuspends the process for the election of a new Diocesan Bishop for
the Diocese of Bangor until either (a) 1 January 2028 or (b) such earlier
date as may be approved by resolution of the Standing Committee.
Two years?
DeleteMust be a hell of a swamp that needs draining!
The sheeple of the GB will adopt this oblivious to the machinations of the Bench. Its clear to all and sundry why this bill has been proposed..
ReplyDeleteWhamab
Enlighten us.
DeleteRB
Rather than being oblivious, it occurs to me that it's far more likely that the chumps on the Governing Body are in cahoots with the plankers on the bench and fully engaged in the ongoing cover-up.
DeleteBewildered
I am afraid it is not clear to me. Nor is it clear whilst everyone in Bangor is tarred with the same brush as SRE
ReplyDeleteClearly the Bench want to subvert the Electoral College's will to put in their own choice. I'm not sure why that is so hard to see?
ReplyDeleteWhamab
The Electoral College did not elect anyone, and the Bench has not chosen to appoint someone. So Whamab’s interpretation is both speculative and unconvincing. It is at least as likely that the view has been taken that the mess in Bangor needs to be sorted out before an appointment is made.
DeleteRB
The electoral college did not meet as a body for the purpose of electing a Bishop of Bangor. So there was no decision that could pass to the Bench. The whole system was suspended while waiting for GB decision.
DeleteFred.
@RB Surely the mess is not so bad that the author of it was not withheld PTO? Maybe my premise would be less convincing if that was the case? Or his underling brought before the tribunal?
ReplyDeleteThe electoral college will not get the opportunity to elect anyone - that was my point. Massive power grab to disenfranchise the electors chosen by their diocese for this very purpose. Never has such a fundamental part of the constitution been overridden in 105 years of the CiW. Is no-one concerned about the precedent this will set?
Elect the best person with a decent tenure and mandate to sort out the mess - this is a decade long rebuild unless there is a hidden agenda such as amalgamation in the background. Two years is never going to be long enough such has been the malaise and toxic culture. The real danger is that this bishop will be little more than a commissary treading water.
Whamab
The electoral college met and did not elect anyone. The motion to GB, as reported above, does not take the appointment of the next bishop from the electoral college and give it to the bench, it simply defers the appointment procedure - the next stage will be an electoral college. Whamab’s interpretation of what is happening has no relation to the facts. It is just paranoia (or worse).
DeleteRB
@RB the electors did not meet only to shortlist which they failed to do.
ReplyDeleteIt was not a meeting of the college for the purposes of an election as you coveniently omit in your reply. Talk about facts, really?
Whamab
A fair correction. But it doesn’t answer the point that the Bench is not usurping or seeking to usurp the role of the electoral college. Your Machiavellian interpretation of the motion to GB lacks any demonstrable basis.
DeleteRB
There's another conundrum to throw into the murky machinations of the Bangor See if a 'temporary' two year breathing space Bishop is to be appointed. He/she has to be fully fledged. By asking +David Morris to stay in post until a new bishop is elected, the Bench or GB or RB etc have effectively closed the door on appointing any office less than full bishop to role. +David holds the 'Check Mate' call but not on the chess board, but straight to Employment Tribunal. He would effectively be made redundant to give way to an immediate replacement. Just a thought.
ReplyDeleteEmployment tribunals so far have determined they have no jurisdiction over cases involving Anglican clergy in the British isles, because of the legal anomaly/loophole that a majority who are in so-called conventional clergy roles (i.e. don’t hold posts in the Diocesan central office staff or TEIs or the like) are ‘office holders’ rather than employees. So Bishop Morris may have an expensive uphill fight on his hands, should he go down that route.
DeleteI'm not so sure that you are correct here. Case in question was matter of former Bangor Dean Susan Jones who, having been 'sacked' simply threatened both her then Bishop (Andrew John) and the RB with Employment Tribunal (Employment Law) before they capitulated and offered her a rather handsome settlement to drop her litigation. Ditto, soon later, a cathedral canon squeezed out of office to become essentially 'constructive dismissal' briefed his lawyers under similar civil action, and he too found Cardiff (and Bishop John Bangor) capitulating. Was there not also the case of a Llangefni vicar who threatened to take the diocese and her archdeacon to IR tribunal for 'bullying' - and again rather than face court, a settlement.
DeleteIt's not as clear cut as you make outl
It’s one thing to threaten litigation and quite another to successfully litigate. Many a cleric has successfully threatened and gained a payout - usually with a NDA thrown in for not-so-good measure. That having been said, there are some roles clergy in Britain hold that are employee roles, but the vast majority are office holders. It all depends on the legal framework under which they were appointed to their role.
DeleteProbably Wyn Evans has said yes to this
ReplyDeleteThis has been brought to my attention. Thank you for your contribution 'An Observer' - but just in case you were alluding to my case, I asked the RB to review the CinW Clergy Disciplinary Tribunal framework, as my experience as a Witness had been very negative indeed. Also, for the record, I didn't receive a penny, let alone a 'settlement'. I left with nothing.
ReplyDeleteThank you for this helpful clarification. Sadly, yours is the more typical experience, and I am sorry you had to go through it.
DeleteSomehow the digressions of recent deviating entries got us off track; the overall matter of electing a new Bishop of Bangor and the various stalling machinations. Does anyone have any update ... certainly nothing is being officially reported in Bangor.
ReplyDeleteFYI, published today: https://www.churchinwales.org.uk/en/news-and-events/road-map-for-the-future-of-ceremonies-for-same-sex-couples-in-the-church-in-wales/
ReplyDeleteThere is simply no super majority in GB for same-sex marriage. The case for theological change has not been made, because we have created a church where theology is belittled and excluded. That is the case always for the inclusive church :-)
DeleteA busy and perhaps critical week for Bangor coming up with the week-long 'in residence' agenda of Archbishop Cherry here in the Diocese to apparently 'bang the table'.
ReplyDeleteOne hopes that in order to act decisively and regain the trust of congregants and donors she has come armed with a fistful of P.45's: the first tranche to be handed out to each and ALL of St. Deiniol's 'Chapter' (excluding the newly appointed Dean but including the growingly distrusted Archdeacon of Bangor). None of them have clean hands in matters of Sion ap Rhys antics, misappropriations and ruination.
Second tranche (as a block sacking) to the adult/Lay choir members who are now refusing to return to the choir stalls until their music director is reinstated despite the umpteen disciplinary hearings underway or pending. How dare they hold the process - and the values of the cathedral - to ransom. Litmus testing in the 'pews' demonstrates their assumptions of self-importance have little if any sympathy. Under the loyal leadership of the excellent Organist, Martin Brown, the congregation at Bangor sings with even more gusto.
With these two decisions taken none who remain faithful to either Diocese or Cathedral would mind at all if for a brief 'interim' period of time St Deiniol's takes on identity of a large parish church - without the overheads, the trimmings, the in-fightings, the politics of being a small, minority, cathedral.
Many of ++Cherry Vann's future problems with Bangor could be resolved on Day One of her visit if like Margaret Thatcher and the minors' Arthur Scargill she resolves to grasp the nettle. P45's all round. Start afresh and reconstruct.
Very well said. I offer no comment on Mrs Thatcher, Mr Scargill, or indeed any case that may be pending or in progress against the DoM. But those things apart, I agree. It wouldn’t be easy, but it may well be the best course of action to start afresh, in so far as is possible. Any Chapter members with credible culpability for collusion with SRE should consider their position, or have it considered for them, in my view. Sadly, the law will make that far easier said than done when no disciplinary action has been instigated against any of them. As to the Choir, I had a lot of sympathy for their position, despite thinking the walk out to be inappropriate. Now they are vastly overplaying their hand, and their bluff should be called. As an old friend used to teach to clergy - always accept a resignation and refuse a free piano.
DeleteAgreed (both of you). But if ++Cherry had the ears of Ancient Briton views, she'd also know that to take strong, positive, no-nonsense action against Bangor's Chapter (incapable of monitoring, challenging or stopping SRE's explosive spendings etc) and the selfish Prima Donnas of the choir would send a message to all other Welsh cathedrals and diocese: I'm not to be minced with.
DeleteThere is perhaps some lesson to be taken from Margaret Thatcher's actions against the NUM. 'The Iron Lady ain't for changing'. Rather than Iron Lady ++Cherry would be respected as the Steel Fist and as Thatcher sent shudders through the entire TUC organisation, ++Cherry could fire warning shots to all diocese watching Bangor that she's not to be minced with. The congregants deserve better. Tough but now long overdue in necessity. No more pussy-footing.
How odd you recall the teachings of an old clergy colleague ref '... refuse a free piano'.
ReplyDeleteOnly a couple of Sundays ago, Dean Manon announced from the pre-Eucharist lectern that if any one wants a free piano; she inherited one when moving into the Bangor deanery which is about the only scrap of furniture SRE didn't take with him or sell to the Bangor 'Relics' shop!!!
I can't see how the law comes into play as Chapter Clergy (and Lay Canons) would not be stripped of their day jobs; membership of a 'Chapter' are appointments not 'jobs'.
By ridding Bangor of its inept and weakling 'Chapter' is also clears the way for some new, unblemished and re-directed 'Chapter' to take decisive action on the DoM who by inviting TV cameras into his grace-and-favour Canonry house to slag off his employers despite warnings not to engage with Media, defied his Chapter, his Archdeacon and his Associate Bishop. That in industry or commerce would be 'instant dismissal' ... and that besides any other allegations (yet to be determined) against him.
Crack on ++Cherry. Clear the decks. Let's start 2026 with an absolutely clean sheet.
As with so many aspects of clergy discipline and tenure, so much depends on the wording of any terms and conditions or licences they have been issued with, and the constitution or other governing document of the Cathedral in which they hold office. For example, if the Canonry is Honorary, and the licence either time limits it or states they serve at the pleasure of the Bishop, it is very simple to withdraw that gift. If, however, they have been given a role description and can prove they have met it, or the licence and/or terms and conditions of the appointment are not time limited and have no expiry or forfeiture clause that can be invoked, it becomes a great deal more complex to deprive them of the office, even if it is unpaid and is not their primary role in ministry. If said Chapter member is a Residentiary Canon for whom the Canonry forms part or the whole of their stipend (as has been the case for at least one Canon of Bangor in the recent past) and thus they are an employee or office holder who is paid, it becomes even more complex.
DeleteNone of this is impossible to unpick, and I, for one, hope ++Cherry will make some very courageous changes in Bangor. But it does call for careful attention to process, if the process mishandling of the past is not going to be replicated in the future.
…I was greatly amused by your piano comment, by the way - and knew nothing of it!
Delete@Fr Duddleswell I don't follow. How is the choir overplaying its hand, and how should the choir be disciplined?
ReplyDeleteI'm sure you all know that 18 members of the choir walked out that Sunday. Only 3 - the lay clerks - were paid; the remainder were there as unpaid volunteers, and had been there through the summer too, and some of them have never received any pay at all for singing in the choir yet came regularly, Sunday after Sunday. They put up with considerable ridicule and were insulted in the news, called names, said to be drinkers and sexual deviants. Of the 18 7 of them were actually under 18, so minors, bullied at school. What did the Cathedral do? Nothing - no statement, no support, not a word.
So, do tell us the form this disciplinary should take. I don't know how you punish volunteers.
The choir have not been invited back - they have been told they can come back if they want, but there has been no other communication whatsoever.
@An Observer you hold strong views abotu the choir, but sadly you are wrong. There is no holding to ransom here, but neglect and lack of respect. People who have given their time - so much time, in the church before the priests arrive, and giving evenings and weekends - have been made to feel unwelcome and unwanted. Ingratitude.
As for the so-called leadership of the Organist. Well, it's interesting that someone can lead in song from the tiny organ cubby hole. He spends his time holed up there during services, often joined by that Sacrist woman, and doesn't come out. Not so much leadership as hiding away. He has no interest in having a choir - he would never lead a choir, as that would involve him working for his wage.
And as for the choir being prima donnas. Well, no - no more so than any other volunteers who give their time and talents for free. You'll be starting on the flower arrangers next: I've heard they're all divas too, with their big floral displays. I've seen some pretty attention-seeking servers, handing out service sheets to people etc etc... Don't be silly.
If informing the 'cathedral' that you arrogant and sulky 'choir' (adults) won't return for the festive music appreciation of music unless matters of your DoM are dropped or forgotten about isn't 'ransom' - blackmail even - then I don't know what is. Yes, the children and enthusiastic young choristers I feel sorry for dragged into your 'dispute'. But a solution. There are umpteen very, very popular large parish churches (which is what Bangor essentially is) which have wonderful choirs of simply that ... children and young teenagers.
DeleteAs for the organist - probably the longest serving of all Bangor's turmoils - you forget that he didn't shrug from leading and rehearsing the choirs in the chaotic period of Susan Jones's 'hire and fire' when three other excellents simply quit.
You wanna sing?? Then try singing for your supper. 'Humble Pie' could be a good menu choice.
Now, you are An Observer. But your eyes are closed - you are being manipulated. You are being fed a narrative by someone - Chapter, probably - and have swallowed it without seeing any of this for yourself.
DeleteWho on earth has said that the choir (why the quote marks? And quote marks on cathedral is baffling) have refused to return for the "festive music appreciation of music" (quote marks because I am quoting your words - but I don't really follow what you are trying to say there)?
None of the adults from the choir have actually been asked to sing. You can't refuse anything if you're not asked! But it might be convenient for some people to give the impression that the choir are refusing. Don't be taken in. The Dean and Chapter don't want music other than hymns. The lack of music through Advent and Christmas is the Cathedral's choice.
You seem very knowledgeable about music. Do please provide a list of all these parish churchers with these wonderful choirs of children and young teeneagers. Are they local to Bangor? Are they in Wales? I've never heard of any round here.
The organist is certainly one of the longest serving of Bangor's turmoils, you certainly have observed that one correctly. I wonder what happened to these choirs (plural?) that he rehearsed? Perhaps he wasn't one of the "excellents".
Call my bluff, I completely agree. I have heard of how both children and adult volunteers in the choir have suffered due to a lack of communication and support from the chapter. It is not a “prima donna” move to not be back, because as you say they have not been invited back. This is also not a situation where it would be easy to come back anyway, as a proper SATB cathedral choir cannot operate without a competent conductor. Neither the lay clerks, nor the organist are at the standard to lead the choir long term.
DeleteThe choir is only not coming back because of the direct actions of the chapter in suspending them and the DoM, and this has been perpetuated and facilitated by the new dean. Running a disciplinary process against the DoM for directing the singing of a psalm in church, and not singing a hymn is ridiculous. Furthermore, with regard to “slagging off” his employer, in any organisation the underhand method of redundancies that was suggested would have been widely condemned. Standing up against this was the right thing to do.
It will be most entertaining to see how the upcoming “carol” services advertised on the cathedral social media play out. A choir of 4 people is certainly not a cathedral choir.
Benedictus.
@ Call My Bluff - I’m not advocating for punishment - though if any of the choir members have a contract or volunteer working agreement (as they should), and it includes behaviour clauses, that may present a route for some kind of punishment, be it dismissal of a contracted employee or withdrawing permission for volunteers to sing there. What I’m advocating for is a very clear message that no individual, employed, office holder or volunteer, clergy or lay and no group of individuals, should ever be allowed to hold any part of the life, mission and ministry of a Cathedral Church to ransom to get their own way.
DeleteHow that message may be sent is not for me to decide, but I do know from long years of experience of leadership that once you give in to such use of assumed power, you are on a hiding to nothing.
So to work that back, I think the choir is overplaying its hand by assuming it is indispensable and so has the power to force the hand of whoever has decision making authority regarding the return of the DoM. Appropriate protest is to be welcomed - although I thought the choir chose an inappropriate way to register their protest through the walkout, I would defend to the hilt their right to protest perceived injustice. But now the members who are doing this have gone way too far, in my view.
I trust that clarifies my views for you, even if you don’t agree with them.
@ Fr Duddleswell
DeleteI’m in agreement that giving in to ultimatums and allowing your organisation to be ‘held to ransom’ would not be a sign of strong leadership. My observations, however, suggest that this is not the case. The choir is not overplaying its hand, because it does not hold the cards.
@ An Observer and others
Other than the walking out before the final hymn on the last day of August, I don’t understand what the choir has done wrong. Lay Clerks are back at work. The Choral Scholarships have gone. The adult volunteers can make up their own minds and presumably have their own reasons for attending or not. The handful of children that remain would need some direction or supervision in order to be able to return. This does not appear to be on offer in the DoM’s absence.
Obliviate
@ Call my Bluff
ReplyDeleteSomeone - either choir spokespersons or clergy - is telling Fibberoos (or little Porkies). But first, after God of course, it's the congregational faithful who really matter and shamefully it's they who are caught in the cross-hairs of your petty nonsenses.
You claim that the Cathedral hasn't 'invited you back'; the cathedral version is that after the period of one-month 'clear the air' suspension elapsed choir you and childrens' parents were all informed (more than once) that you'd be more than welcome to return at any time. Do you really need gold-embossed Invitation cards? You've been told - and individually admitted by some of you - that the the door is open. Now you've changed the tune: no return until the DoM (himself still under disciplinary process) can lead you. This isn't quite the same as 'we haven't been invited back ...!'
Perhaps there's a another protest among you: that Bangor's new 'clean broom' Dean Manon James has returned the cathedral to the more frugal and favoured - thus popular - traditional Welsh-Anglican form of service rather than the High-Catholic almost Papal inflicted on them by the ousted and disgraced sub-dean. Long and tedious chants and garish anthems are gone as indeed have the gold-threaded silken and lace vestments, the choking clouds of incense et al. Congregants are back to the worship of yore: basic Anglo-Methodist understandable worship (with or without a choir).
In the meanwhile, from what I hear, the only loss to 'bums on pews' has been in the small number of Choir Groupies ... not there to worship but to cheer their children along. That's fine; but its little loss to the purpose of the cathedral being a place of worship rather than free-bee Choral Society.
I suspect but don't know that the congregation you purport to serve attend their services - Welsh or English - to thank the Holy Father for the gifts of the previous week, confess their sins, receive the Holy Communion and pray for blessings ahead. That's probably why there is very little sympathy or interest in the Holy Choir's lost nonsenses.
Advent and Christmas? I'm sure that if you are all worshippers as well as singers, you'll all be there in 'civvi' dress and in the pews singing along with the other faithful. If not then your Sunday processing is simply as many envisage it ... there only as performers. If you miss music that much, there's always the Ogwen Male Voice Choir or form a Gilbert and Sullivan Bangor Society. Gilbert and Sullivan is always popular.
An Observer: goodness me, you're very angry, and it's quite amusing when someone of limited intellectual capacity gets so riled up!
DeleteWhere on earth are you getting your information from? Who are these 'choir spokespersons'?! Or have you had your information from the clergy? You keep following the Cathedral version (although you are rather making it up as you go along).
I'm not going to bother with going through your little tirade, but I can tell you now that your assumptions about me are all wrong. So wrong it's hilarious. If you had any idea...
An Observer,
DeleteOf course, because the cathedral is clearly to be trusted, as it has been very honest in its handling of affairs over the past few months. Have you ever considered that you are falling for their narrative? The problem at Bangor has always been the clergy, over decades. The chapter and new dean are aware of this, and so have successfully found a scapegoat to take the fall instead. Many of the choir are faithful, but are finding it difficult to attend the cathedral at the moment because of the environment created by the chapter. How do you know that people aren't simply going to their local parish churches instead?
With regard to Advent and Christmas, I'm sure many of the choir will be back in the pews as congregants. This has already been the case over the past few weeks anyway, so when you say "the congregation at Bangor sings with even more gusto", it is likely because a few from the choir are in the congregation.
You're still missing the point. The cathedral has advertised its 'traditional nine lessons and carols' service. Nine lessons and carols is, as you say, a traditional Welsh-Anglican service. This will be impossible to pull off to a traditional standard without reinstating the director of music. As well as congregational carols, it involves small motets and poems set to song.
You purport to know lots about traditional Welsh-Anglicanism, and suggest that the dean is trying to reinstate this. If this were the case, you would know that singing unison anthems and mediocre hymn singing ("led with great gusto!") is not traditional Welsh-Anglican.
Benedictus.
A response to some of the points above.
DeleteFirst of all, the remarks about the organist, Martin Brown, are ungracious and unfair. He is a skilled and professional organist who has served the cathedral’s worship for many years. He should not be expected to perform any other duties, though he may to want to respond to an invitation should it be given. But to malign him for doing his duty and doing it well is unfair on him.
Secondly, to my knowledge, only one director of music left during Sue Jones’s tenure as dean. Also, she had to make some tough financial decisions to keep the cathedral afloat, similar to the new dean - neither of whom have/had SRE’s hands on the diocesan purse strings to help fund extra staff and expensive furniture etc.
Thirdly, there has been no official comment by the cathedral authorities about the current state of the choir. The only comment was made in a printed letter to the cathedral congregations when the decision to consult on redundancies was made, informing us that the choir had been suspended for four weeks. We were told that those four weeks had come to an end. (Were we also told that they were free to return, or am I confusing that with an individual informing me of that unofficially??) I have been told unofficially that they are free to return but that they’re on strike - whether that reflects an official cathedral line I’m not sure, since no official comment has been made. Some choir members have been present in the congregation during services. The lack of official communication on this point is regrettable.
Fourthly, in the same letter, mention was made of the Director of Music being away from his duties, which I took as being an euphemism for being suspended. Rightly, no official word on this suspension has been released. Since he is still not back, I take it that he remains suspended. Unofficially, I understand that he was facing a disciplinary hearing two or three weeks ago and that this hearing was to take place in St Asaph Diocese, so as to take it out of Bangor.
The question as to why he was being disciplined and suspended is an interesting one and might have serious ramifications for the diocese in any potential employment tribunal, should Cooper decide to take his case there. Was he suspended for the failures outlined in the two reports on safeguarding? Or was it caused by his subsequent response to those reports? Clearly from his response Cooper feels badly and unjustly treated and he has chosen to defend himself, partly through pointing out that the problems in Bangor lay with more senior people. Those senior people have now both lost their jobs, suggesting that Cooper was at least partly correct. My own reading of the situation is that the choir’s failings (whatever they were, for those reports have not been published in full and are now possibly forgotten) have at least been exaggerated so as to push SRE - being sub-dean - out of the door. Similar tactics have been used in the past in Bangor. Cooper decided that he needed to continue to defend himself - no one else was doing it, certainly not in any official capacity. He partly used the media (both traditional and social) to do this. He criticised those in senior positions. Then, those senior people (on the Chapter) took disciplinary action against him. A potential conflict of interest? If so, a clear case of potential constructive dismissal and (another) expensive payout and an NDA to keep everyone quiet.
The above paragraph is speculation on my behalf but is partly based on things I know and also on previous experience of Bangor troubles. If I am correct, then we need another inquiry in the diocese, focussing on Cooper’s treatment. Of course, a much wider and deeper inquiry is required to look into all of John’s mismanagement over the period of his episcopacy but a Cooper investigation would be a start, for it would signpost us towards John’s wider failures.
Deiniol’s pet springer
Deiniol's pet springer,
DeleteI think some of your observations are correct. Critique of those in senior management seems to be the only publicly evident reason for the DoM's suspension. It would not surprise me if any disciplinary action results in the dismissal of the DoM. It will be an easy way to divert blame, and silence someone for speaking out against those in positions of power. It does seem very likely that there is a significant conflict of interest in certain members of the Chapter, and I can imagine what you insinuated from that occurring also.
I would disagree that the DoM has been the only person defending himself. Does it not say something that the bulk of the choir, many of whom are faithful Christians, and academics, teachers, parents, legal professionals feel unable to come back until he returns? Many of those in the choir seem (to me, at least!) far more learned and logical than many of the management at the cathedral.
It's sad that nothing seems to have changed at the cathedral, despite some new faces. The DoM had built up a very good choir, who uplifted the worship of all who came to the cathedral. A great shame to see this potentially being lost.
Benedictus.
All of the Bangor onnishambles are nothing new for the cult in Wales.
DeleteDo none of you remember the disgraceful way in which Morley Lewis (Musical Director of the Llandaff Cathedral Parish Choir) was mistreated over twenty years ago?
Disreputable doesn't even begin to describe the way musicians are mistreated by the church.
It's a stinking swamp and has been for a very long time.
So, that it then eh? The GB supported by Bangor Cathedral Chapter etc. has opted for a two-year 'interim' cardboard cutout Bishop to plug the gap until next they are asked to exercise their brains (or get off their backsides).
ReplyDelete++ Cherry has hopes of perhaps finding some retired non C-in-W Bishop who will plumb for the job or perhaps a sub-bishop from over the border. Now how many retired bishops are there of respectfully youthful age (between 55-65) on the books for selecting?? Most retire close to or at 70. And of the suffrogens of worth how many of them will give up their appointments in England or Scotland, take their kids out of local schools, learn Welsh and to come to Bangor as pro-tems onto to find in a couple of years that they - like our own Asst. Bishop David Morris - have had their contracts expired.
This is passing the buck nonsense. As I think 'An Observer' suggest upstream this blog discussion, the brave decision to take would be for ++Cherry to fire the entire Bangor Chapter and reappoint; this with only one exception and she being Dean Manon who is tasked to lead a new force-for-good. The Diocese generally is in OK order now that Andrew John has realised his Epiphony and recognised he was never Bishop material. All the cathedral needs is a strong (non sychophantic) Chapter with the continued oversight and auditing of ++Cherry. Under this must come a new, proactive PR strategy not the amateurish and misdirected 'reactive' to support hard-nosed re-direction and external support ... and of course fast, even if ruthless, resolution to the Joe Cooper nonsense, and, dismissal if indeed that becomes necessary of the entire choir unless they end their childish attitudes of self-importance. Enough's enough. More time, money and resource is being wasted in kerfuffling around than Sion ap Rhys Evans could have wasted in his wildest sprees.
Ad Clerum.
DeleteYou can’t refer to the situation with music at the cathedral as “nonsense”. If you read any of the comments above you would know it is not self importance.
Also, the only money the cathedral are wasting is in not using funding for roles such as the organ scholarship, and by choosing to suspend the DoM. The solution is not to dismiss the DoM, or the whole choir. If this happened, it would cost even more money to rebuild, and would be a great injustice.
Benedictus.
What is very frustrating about this whole discussion and consequent debacle for those of us, very very few by now who carry the history of this diocese of Bangor is how Andrew John became bishop in the first place. Three are primarily responsible in order to stop the best candidate at the time becoming bishop. One because of ecclesiastical polity at the time that he never really believed in. The other two out of personal regard . The three being the then archbishop, the other now on Merseyside in high office, the other a then archdeacon. They would have known that Andrew was not up to the job. Despite that they pressed on ahead. Andrew is as much a casualty of this sorry process as the rest. Not to name this and put it in context is wrong.
ReplyDeleteThe chocolate teapot didn't have to accept the appointment as Bishop in the first place and also obviously lacked the discernment to realise he would be out of his depth.
DeleteYou can multiply that by at least three when it came to him being nominated as Archbishop.
The whole electoral system is to such an extent open to abuse that it ought to be replaced. I rather like the Coptic practice for the selection of the Patriarch: a short list of three is agreed in Synod and slips bearing their names are placed in a chalice from which a blindfolded child picks one, who is accepted as the choice of the Holy Spirit.
Delete@ Matthew
DeleteNO. NO. NO! Even I in my potting shed pickling onions and testing my home made Sloe Gin in readiness for Christmas I know that Bangor's clergy are ALL children and as blind as bats without blindfolds. They'd still screw it up. And from all heard post the gob-smacking admissions of money miscounting at the Cathedral, I'm not sure if many of them can count up to three anyway!!!!
@Old Bill: The second part of my comment wasn't serious -- or not a serious suggestion to fix the Bangor problem. The first part was, however. Don't go down the current over-elaborate C of E practice; there must be a simpler and better way. Perhaps AB would set a competition to devise something foolproof (emphasis on the first half of this word).
Delete