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Another extension to facilitate commentators while the Chuech in Wales saga continues.
Please remain on topic and remember to add a pseudonym if you are commenting anonymously.
Postscript 21.10.2025
It was extremely ill-advised for the clergy at GB who proposed and supported the amendment that was passed requiring the RB to 'reflect' on its handling of the Andrew John 'retirement'. Words like 'unchristian' were actually used to describe the actions of the RB trustees (and I only speak of volunteers here) who bravely acted to end the shambolic situation.
ReplyDeleteThey did not remove John from his post. They had no power to do so. They did, however, act in their fiduciary duty as trustees to say what they might do if he did not resign. Thankfully, John saw the writing on the wall and did the right thing eventually.
The body at fault in this debacle was the BENCH not the GB. It is they who should reflect -so it was dumbfounding to see Mary Stallard speak in favour of the amendment. Deflection and projection if I ever heard it.
Well done RB, you acted within the law of the land which trumps the Constitution of the Church in Wales every time, assuming it was ever violated in this case.
Whamab
The bench and the RB are just as spineless as each other.
DeleteBalls to the lot of them, they deserve themselves.
Yes apart from having a debate without anyone from Bangor being present, having a debate without having all the facts, having a debate despite already drafting a statement. Let’s not mention the leaking of statements and information out of RB showing they cannot keep information confidential and certainly not upholding the Nolan principles and then publishing a statement which didn’t reflect the fact that the Archbishop had already resigned. Where are the resignations from RB for leaking information? Seems to me that the RB came to the party late, panicked that they hadn’t asked questions and got a grip earlier and then forced the hand of the then Archbishop. Not the behaviour one would expect either. A pox on all your houses.
DeleteWhistleblowers 1 - 0 Chocolate Teapot
DeleteGood riddance to the insipid vacuous fool. The end justified the means.
@RSS yes and John would still be Archbishop. CiW and Bangor would lurch from one crisis to another, more disrepute, more crazy decisions that were totally avoidable by any competent leader.
DeleteYou make valid points, but where was the Bench who are supposed to provide executive and spiritual leadership? It was clear to all John's leadership was untenable. I believe in fair process and the failures are serious, but they didn't change the trustees' duty in law to act.
Asking the RB to reflect is deflection and hypocrisy when everyone involved in how SRE got where he did, to do what he did and those who stood back doing and saying nothing need to reflect. The truth is the constitutional mechanisms to bring Andrew John to account for his decisions were never going to be used (bringing disrepute is a disciplinary matter as is gross incompetence). The Bench just tried to protect one of its own and closed ranks forcing the RBs hand.
Whamab
This is a genuinely open question, as I don’t already know the answer. Apart from +Llandaff, do all those who have called for this somewhat pointless ‘reflection’ have good reason to be grateful to Andrew John, or one of his episcopal protégés?
DeleteI’ve known various scandals involving senior clergy as active participants in misconduct or negligent in oversight in several of the provinces I’ve served in over a long ministry. When it’s clergy defending individuals or criticising decisive corrective actions, more often than not they’ve been motivated by one of three reasons - 1) a sincere but misguided sense of loyalty to senior clergy who have treated them well, 2) a sincere but misguided sense of lay people interfering in what should (in their view) be the sole preserve of clergy, 3) the ‘good old’ issue of ‘that’s not the way things are done round here’ - something not unique to the clergy, but not unrelated to a culture of excessive clericalism (accountability, HR processes, the law of the land etc being things that shouldn’t concern us as a church).
4) They're implicated or were complicit and have a great deal to conceal, including their involvement, from coming to light.
DeleteNot knowing who was involved in this attempt to rewrite history, it’s difficult to give a view. But there are some who certainly fear being exposed.
DeleteDeiniol’s pet springer
Meanwhile in Bangor, the congregrants still 'know nuffinck'. No update on the choir, no update on 'redundancies', no update on nuffinck. OK there's a new Dean who sits in the rear pews and OK we haven't seen the Ven David Parry since his ousting as Chair of Chapter. All very well for remotes to discuss Bangor's affairs in some far-away S.Wales venue ... but oughtn't Bangorians be treated with some respect? All very well the RB and others assuring that they have Bangor in their Prayers ... but please don't pass the buck over to God's in-tray.
ReplyDeleteMushroom culture as usual?
DeleteHardly a surprise.
Bewildered
What a pity. That ball is squarely in the court of the Dean. Obviously it would take some careful handling, but any new senior person coming into a mess like that needs to give reassurance that they have the measure of it, or if they don’t they will have in a short time of familiarisation and how they propose to go about it, as indeed the new Archbishop has done. That the Dean hasn’t done that does not bode well, in my view. But then again, looking at who was on the appointment panel, I can’t say I’m surprised that at this early stage it looks like business as usual.
DeleteThe Dean still has time to prove herself but it was an odd decision to go on Radio Cymru’s Bwrw Golwg before speaking to her new congregation. Mind you, worse things have happened in Bangor over the years.
DeleteDeiniol’s pet springer
Even worse, there are so few Welsh-congregants (ie attendees of the poorly supported single weekly service) that she probably assumed no one would even notice that she'd been on BBC radio at all. There are more devoted African-Blacks and Asians with young families than there are Welsh. Perhaps a broadcast on the BBC World Service would have about as much if not more impact on Bangor ... !!!
DeleteHaving made so many enemies - clergy, congregants, staff etc - in Bangor over so few months in office as Chapter supremo, it will interesting if the loathed archdeacon, the Venerable David Parry will dare show his face at Bangor Cathedral for the installation by Archbishop Cherry Vann of Manon James in a couple of weeks time. If he does, there is good chance that the cathedral choir will simply march out again (assuming that they might by then be allowed to sing) and the congregation throw ripe and rotten Harvest Festival tomatoes. They say that the biggest bullies are also the weakest of cowards when confronted. Could be an interesting afternoon !!!
ReplyDeleteThe Archdeacon of Bangor is a fine pastor and has had to sort out a mess not his causing.
DeleteIn my opinion, he is not a fine pastor. He struggles to conduct services properly (as aptly shown on many livestreams), his sermons are limp and laced with his own opinions, which is ironic considering the narrative he pushes about protest during worship. He is not a kind man.
DeleteBenedictus.
It’s a sorry state of affairs and seems to worsening quicker than a lunar revolution! Isn’t it time that this church of ours got to grips with humility and transparency? Get on with dealing with bullies, reduce the waste, and protect what really matters. In the last month I’ve read about stipends missing in action, how many archdeacons missing or suspended (on full pay?), whilst at the same time redundancies are served in those who maintain the sung services so loved by visitors and strangers to our cathedrals - not to mention those who choose to worship there regularly. Does anybody in the Church in Wales have the ability, talent, and gifts to sort this out? Currently they don’t seem to be working hard on it - from what I can see. To those on the outside it looks damning! Are we really that close to “last one out turn off the lights”
DeleteFatigued
I agree with Y Parch in so much as the Archdeacon was faced with sorting out a situation that really should not have fallen to him to address. But I do not agree that it was not of his own making. From everything I have read, and heard from very reliable sources, he was indeed not one of the prime architects of the mess, but as a trustee of the charity in post during the period in question (either in full or in part), he bears shared responsibility for the failures in oversight that allowed those more actively involved to do such of the things alleged against them as they may have done. To put it bluntly, with adequate oversight - vocational and practical - the prime movers could not have operated in the way they did for as long as they did, or cause as much damage as they did.
DeleteGiven his clear involvement in the failings that caused the mess, it was never a good idea to ask him to lead sorting it out. Even had he had the necessary skills and experience (which I’ll come to), his credibility and independence were utterly compromised. So I feel some sympathy with him, being put in that position, but he could have refused to do it, and said it would be better to bring in someone without the conflicts of interest he had. To my knowledge, he didn’t do that. He unwisely agreed to do it. He wasn’t alone, Bishop Morris should never have chaired the Panel to appoint the new Dean. But drawing clear boundaries, handling conflicts of interest transparently and opting for genuine independence seem to be things the Diocese of Bangor has struggled with for a significant period of time.
In terms of what happened once he had greatness thrust upon him, the Archdeacon bears total responsibility for his own choices and actions, and here, in my view, he proved himself not up to the role he was given. I disagree with the critiques of his service leading and preaching - they aren’t anywhere near best practice, in my view, but they are also not inadequate. They are no worse than I have seen and heard in many places in several Anglican provinces. But I also think he seriously mishandled almost all the issues involved in beginning to address the mess.
The one thing in which I think he was absolutely right was to suspend the choir (and I assume the DoM, though I could be wrong about that) after the protest. Disrupting divine worship to turn it into public pursuit of disputes between participants can never pass without consequence, in my view, however justified the motivation for the protest. It is not the right place or time.
But even that was, in the greater part, a mess of the Archdeacon’s making. The DoM and choir made a very poor choice, in my view. But had the Archdeacon not done to them what is alleged, they would not have had reason to even consider doing such a thing.
I don’t know the Archdeacon personally or professionally. It might well be that he has a fine track record as a pastor, and indeed as a handler of problems - I don’t know, so can’t say. But in the matter of handling the mess at the Cathedral, I’m afraid he has, in my view, more than proved himself not up to the task of senior leadership - practically, pastorally or spiritually. I hope that, in time, he may be able to learn from his mistakes and rebuild his ministry. But, as with some others in this whole scenario, he may be best doing that in a different role, without the additional responsibilities, pressures and intense public scrutiny that come with seniority.
My reference wasn't to the Archdeacon in Bangor (like Fr D I couldn't comment). Instead, my reference was to the previous post mid-september regarding the missing Archdeacon of Wrexham. I don't know either of them but the latter has been in post actively for less than a year?? Suspended?? on full pay?? Whilst excellent musical traditions are suffering the scythe of redundancy.
DeleteFatigued (and Frustrated)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2j9vwvz71o
ReplyDeleteThe squalor elsewhere doesn't seem to change much, does it?
The church has to work with the people it has. One of the most stand out features of the C in W by now is the demise of intellectual prowess within it. Many reasons for this. A failure to attract clever people by now. The quality of theological education . The loss of theology departments in the universities. An over emphasise on survival at the expense of the abilty to think theologically. Would it be true to say that some who are ordained today would not make it to lay reader level some years ago? Or is that unfair? The consequences of all this is a weak leadership. Within the ranks of archdeacons and probably bishops. No one really stands out as a potential bishop for Bangor. And if you look amongst Welsh speakers the situation is dire. In many ways what happened in Bangor recently was a result of having to make do with the people that were available who were not up to the tasks. No use us shouting from the touchlines, they in the end were and are who we have.
ReplyDeleteLay Reader level?
DeleteMost would struggle to have made the grade of Sunday School teacher 60-70 years ago.
Bewildered
Up here in the Bangor diocesan hinterlands of the Ogwen and Nanlle valleys, word has it that there's a new kid on the preaching circuit pushing himself out for Harvest Festival pulpit slots as guest sermoniser. None other than the somewhat tarnished failure Andrew John now re-branded from his Llanberis-vicar-wife's parsonage as 'Rent-a-Priest'.
ReplyDeleteOne would have thought that had he any respect for the mess being mopped up in his wake, 'His Grace' would have had the grace to keep his head down for a while. As he was neither a 'theologian' nor particularly versed in the Scriptures one can only wonder what his Harvest sermons might contain. When ++Carey stepped down to move to Wales his efforts to re-engage on the Guest-Preacher circuit were shut down by the then Dean of Bangor, Alun Hawkins backed by his then Bishop, Tony Crocket. One might have hoped that Andrew John would have taken notice.
God forbid that this leaves the vestry door open for Sion ap Rhys to return in flowing silks and ermine on the celebrity platform. But ++Andy (retired/resigned/removed)?
How many Bangor Diocese popular priests of his tenure did he remove Licence or permission to preach did he ban out of spite or envy ... but no one in authority today to 'do thine likewise' to him. One can only hope that in order to supplement his P.45 income he's not charging the parishes like Llan Deiniolen and others his fees and expenses.
I’m rather surprised that’s being allowed. In most of the provinces where I’ve worked the usual convention has been Incumbents retire outside their last parish, and Diocesan Bishops outside their last Diocese. Any PTO they then have is given on the understanding they won’t exercise it within those respective contexts except in particular circumstances with permission sought from the Bishops for each occasion. Of course, some ignore the convention until they end up on the wrong end of a phone call from Diocesan HQ, but it’s there for good reason.
DeleteI wouldn’t have thought it did anyone in Bangor Diocese any good to still be having the ‘Shameless Ghost of Excessive Christmas Presents’ popping up every verse end…
If this is the convention how is it that Barry Morgan not only lives in his former diocese of Llandaff but also preaches in its churches?
DeleteNemesis
There are a number of former bishops living in their diocese. Wyn Evans, John Davies, Barry Morgan, Pierce, Dominic Walker. I think the precept that you don’t retire to your own diocese has long gone!
DeleteBlack Sheep.
Bully boy --Bazza was always a law unto himself but wherever he goes, Darth --Insidious is less welcome than a rank fart in a space suit.
DeleteYes, maybe it has in the CiW - I haven’t worked there for many a year. But in the other provinces where I have worked it remains the usual expectation, for very good reason. If you have a retiree who is an emotionally intelligent and mature person, it wouldn’t matter, as they would know not to make a show or a nuisence of themselves, especially while the new person in the role is settling in and becoming established. But when it’s the likes of Andrew John (and a few others I could name), it’s a whole different matter, I think.
Delete@ Fr Duddleswell
ReplyDeleteYour interpretation of 'conventions' is as my understanding also except of course in Bangor there is no Bishop to enforce it and no others in the C-in-W daring to challenge it. This has to fall on ++Cherry to warn parish priests off from sharing their pulpit with a former bishop of the diocese ... unless with exceptional reason. There is no one within the 'Diocesan HQ' with authority to step in except of course the delight that Asst. Bishop David Morris has apparently returned to duty looking healthy again. Perhaps he didn't know of Andrew John's freelancing around.
As most know, I live outside the cathedral circle - my potting shed and allotment garden up the Ogwen Valley being my refuge in retirement from insanity. But even in former career there was a general and enforced understanding that when senior officers 'marched out' - and especially when stripped of rank - they would not re-engage themselves. Had former archbishop John any decency about him he ought to have sought the permission (even if he still holds his own-signed licence to officiate parchment) of his archbishop to preach in any parish church in the Diocese of Bangor or indeed anywhere in Wales. Refer back to to courage of Dean Alun Hawkins and the BBC Radio 4 'Today' programme, Times and other press coverage of his action to stop George Carey from preaching at Bangor Cathedral and then Bishop Crocket's absolute backing for that decision. Sadly we don't have that senior and experienced clergy today with the same 'balls'. Shame is that Cherry Van and others purport not to read Ancient Britain so take no note of opinion. (I suspect they do, but deny it later).
Before he resigned/retired Andy John was given PTO by Archbishop Cherry. That he stated publicly to the diocese. There are theologically educated clergy in the diocese, a number holding postgraduate degrees, most working hard within their MAs trying to make the best use of the the limited resources they have at their disposal. There are things still worth celebrating and thanking God for in the diocese, but most of these things were not noted under the previous regime.
ReplyDelete@ Y Parch - thank you, that explains the PTO situation - I smell having PTO being part of the ‘requested’ terms of the departure deal. If deposing him as Archbishop and Diocesan Bishop rested on this in full or in part, granting it was definitely the right thing to do, in pragmatic greater good reasoning, much as him still being active in ministry in the Diocese is not a good thing.
Deletehttps://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c3vz2nkvq9vo
ReplyDeleteThe Church in Wales knew of the abuse taking place and did.......... nothing.
Business as usual.
My apologies for re-entering the chat ref former ++ John's pulpit-revival-tour of parish churches, but as it was I who introduced it, so might I be excused.
ReplyDeleteMet today with a lovely old chap of unquestionable faithfulness by tradition to the Eglwys yn Cymru who defending the Diocese of Bangor in closing a blind eye to resigned ++John's 'Archbishop on Pulpit Preaching Tour' re-birth said 'Well Bill, it's not surprising really. We just don't have enough clergy in the area these days'. Then he scratched his head, thought a moment and added: '.... problem is of course that it was that bloke Andy who either sacked the best of them or put other new boys off from wanting to come to North Wales in the first place'
Encore dear chap. Within weeks of becoming Bishop of Bangor Andrew John not only sacked his popular Bishop's Chaplain & Secretary the Rev. Emyr Parry but sought legal action to evict him and his children out of his Vicarage. By my conservative count, another 47 ordained priests have been thrust out or wisely quit the diocese under his tenure. It's not surprising that some parish vicars with empty Harvest Festival pulpits now need to sump the dregs of the pond to find a slug of a man to preach.
Priority job for Archbishop Cherry might be to write to all those priests who quit the diocese because of Andrew John's appalling behaviour to write to them apologising and to assure than Bangor is now a better place (?) should they wish to return. It's the right thing to do.
The former bishop has not offered to come to any of my churches. I am not sure that many of my clergy colleagues are inviting him. I imagine he is preaching in his wife's MA.
ReplyDeleteAmazing how now such criticism of Bishop John emerges. You were all very quiet during his tenure. And please don t say you were frightened. There is such a thing as courage. He was not the best choice, neither was he the worse. Long ago during the electoral college he was chosen to stop Meurig Llwyd Williams. Aided by two key people, one of them by now on Merseyside. He was not the only bishop to adopt the ill thought out and ultimately disastrous Harris Report that instigated the Mission Areas debacle which basically burns clergy out and turns them into managers. Bishop John did not do any of this alone. Others agreed with him. One of the present archdeacons has put his own name forward to become the next bishop. Yes in the end the bishop should carry the can but there were many hands on the handle. Hypocrisy, suggests itself. As I have said before, you deal with the church you have not with the one you’d like. So much of the present criticism smacks of a form of Donatism. Bishop John s legacy probably will be the Llwybr Cadfan initiative ably run by Elin Owen and others and of real relevance and appeal to so many, most of them non church attenders. Not a bad legacy that one. Something he can really be proud of. And as for him being able to officiate in the diocese. Of course he can.
ReplyDeleteIf you'd bothered reading this blog you would have picked up on criticism of the chocolate teapot virtually from the day he was appointed.
DeleteBewildered
I would love to think that Gerwhine is seeing this vacancy in see as a way to elevate himself to the rigors of being +Bangor
Delete"You were all very quiet during his tenure".
DeleteDid you read Ancient Briton's blog anytime during the last decade??
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
🤡,🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡
Didn t stand a chance then did he, poor guy
ReplyDeleteNo more than did your false claims that we were all very quiet during his tenure.
DeleteIs that you Andy, or one of his wives?🤔
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c2lxyxqzxkdo
ReplyDeleteThe entirely predictable and expected DEI tick box appointment has been announced.
What a joke.
I have no strong view on the appointment of Sarah Mullally to Canterbury, I have far more pressing things nearer home to deal with, although with the state of the CofE, along with CiW and others, I do wonder how relevant the appointment really is. Nevertheless, I certainly wish her well.
ReplyDeleteThe only point of interest for me is that she served as Canon Treasurer of Salisbury Cathedral from 2012 to 2015. The Dean of Salisbury at that time was, of course, the truly awful June Osborne, subsequently Bishop of Llandaff and we all know what happened under her watch here in this diocese, a debacle from which many here think we will never recover.
JP
I take deep exception to her appointment.
DeletePriested in 2006 but ABC by 2025?
Just who the hell is she shagging?
No male priest would/could climb the greasy pole so quickly!!!!
DuckingFisgusting.
Well Justin was only 20 years between ordination and ABC so I don’t see any material difference for the new ABC with 19 years 🙄. Who the hell was Justin sleeping with ??
DeleteIf it was up to Welby, Paula Vennells would have got the job.
DeletePerhaps that's the answer to your question?
Bewildered
My guess would be ‘nobody they shouldn’t be’ in both cases, much as I find it distasteful to many any comment about this in respect of either of them. Bewildered points you to what is really going on.
DeleteIn the C of E there has been a huge shift away from how things were when I went to theological college - a basic assumption that nothing you knew about or had done outside the Church before coming to College would be of any use to you at all in ministry - to ‘transferable skills’ being equivalent or superior to anything you learn as a priest. In my view, there is absolutely nothing wrong in recognising and making good use of knowledge and experience gained in other contexts. But where it has gone wrong in the C of E is they have largely forgotten the issue of uniqueness - what the Church and a priest are and are for. That bit calls for a totally different lens through which to view, interpret and use knowledge and skills gained in other contexts. So they have rapidly promoted people with little pastoral acumen and/or who are theologically inept, but who have skills and experience that makes them seem credible in the eyes of other external professionals.
To some degree, that’s always been true - many of the great scholar priests and bishops were utterly atrocious pastors, and pastors often got overlooked in favour of public school headmasters and Oxbridge fellows when it came to appointing bishops. But a majority of them were not also theologically inept and had a good understanding of the unique elements of priestly ministry and the Church.
Sadly, in too many quarters today ‘priesthood’ has been reduced to ‘leadership’ and the two are not synonymous. This isn’t, in my view, a simple question of which church tradition dominates. It is more a question of the various professions having eroded the traditional roles of a priest in a community in many ways and the C of E rushing to try to stay relevant, instead of embracing its ‘uniqueness/oddness’ and continuing to value rigorous theology and capable pastoral care alongside recognising much needed skills and insights from other professions.
My question was today on hearing the announcement was this: how influential was Mary Stallard in the appointment? Did her vote swing Mullally into the 2/3rds majority required?
ReplyDeleteWhy is this relevant you may ask, well Stallard was Assistant Bishop in Bangor at exactly the time SRE's alleged malfeasance was at its height. Was she responsible for his oversight as Bishop principally tasked with the day to day running of the diocese when Andy John was acting in his duties as metropolitan? Has she by her acts and omissions some resposibility to bear on the current disaster that is the diocese and cathedral church of Bangor?
If so, should she have been appointed to represent Wales on the CNC? And if she made a material difference when she shouldn't have been there; has a series of poor judgment calls due to the alleged conduct of SRE, led to the appointment of Sarah Mullally as the 106th Archbishop of Canterbury? Just wondering?
Whamab
I only know three clergy in the Diocese of London and all three are delighted that she's heading off down the River Thames to Canterbury ... thus freeing up the London See to a deserving bishop.
Delete@Ad Clerum
DeleteWhat a bitter comment (along with the rest of the bitter old queens that fill this spiteful page) I wonder who these three lone clergy are? +Sarah has been respected and admired both as +London and +Crediton and in previous roles. Shes a fine pastor and preacher and unlike many actually cares about people and parishes. She’s fully supportive of society parishes/clergy and a true example of Mutual Flourishing. A happy day for the CofE and Anglican Communion and a true breath of fresh air.
Truth
@ 'Truth'
DeleteI doubt very much that you are either a 'Priest' or if so, certainly not a priest in the Diocese of London I will refer your comment to those who served under Dame Sarah for their response if they can be bothered. No bitterness from me, just relay of comments from the Diocese she served; two of them quite senior. Glad that she's moving on to enable the Dioc. of London to return to basics. The God Bit,
Women however must stick together though eh 'Truthy'?
@ Ad Clerum
DeleteWhat a pathetic reply, sure you’re not bitter? The Diocese of London has “done God” truly well under +Sarah. Strange how you (and other nasty blokes) choose to ignore the good she has achieved.
It’s not about women “sticking together”
It a shame the sad, bitter, and twisted old prats that fill this page can’t put as much effort into contributing positively to the life of the church as they do here sitting behind the safety of their screens. But oh yes, it’s the women and the gays who have “killed” the church.
It’s about time the low life’s of this page got out into the real world instead of stirring up bitter hatred.
Truth
…and yet you contribute in like form, Truth. I can’t speak for anybody else, but for my own part, I am neither bitter, nor am I an ‘old queen’, not that I have anything against those who are either or both of those things. Oh, and for the record, I am pro women and pro gay also. Beware of behaving like those you seek to call out!
DeleteSorry AB, could you please edit my last one to correct ‘old queen’ to ‘old prat’? This old prat misremembered Truth’s insult!!
DeleteSorry Fr. D I am unable to edit comments. I believe commentators are able to delete their own comments.
DeleteLovely to hear that Asst.Bishop David Morris was back, robed and healthy from his official business in Australia serving the 'host' communion at Bangor cathedral today laying to rest all manner of silly rumours.
ReplyDeletePerhaps not so welcome was announcement that the 'choir' is being allowed back again (but perhaps not their director of music who remains under disciplinary investigation). This just when the congregants had got used to singing their own favourite, traditional hymns and reciting precis versions of Psalms and not having to languish through odd-ball and often garish hymn-tunes and lengthy Psalm chantings to tuneless metric singing. So, first tiny-steps towards normality ... but will normality ever be the same again at Bangor?
If what you have heard is accurate, the only comment I have is I’m pretty appalled that the DoM remains under disciplinary investigation whilst all the clergy implicated in the various allegations raised about the scandals (including your beloved Bishop Morris) continue without investigation. For the avoidance of doubt, I am not saying investigating the DoM is without merit - I offer no comment on that - but I find the difference in approach very telling and utterly inappropriate.
DeleteIt’s very clear that the choir are being used to scapegoat and obfuscate much of the wrongdoing by clergy. If the chapter and new dean truly cared about bringing the choir back, they would drop this investigation, or as you suggest, investigate everyone else.
DeleteBenedictus.
It wouldn't be the first time the Cathedral Choir has been the scapegoat for the dismal failings of a Chapter in a Welsh Cathedral, would it?
DeleteHarold, of course not. I suppose the difference is that the choir at Bangor has rightfully stood up for itself in an outspoken way, and challenged the chapter, and that has hurt the egos of many, so there is increased pushback.
DeleteBenedictus
Rubbish.
DeleteWhich Cathedral Choir "rightfully stood up" for themselves "in an outspoken way, and challenged the chapter" more than the four Llandaff Cathedral Lay Clerks who initiated an employment tribunal in 2012?
There was and is no bigger ego than that of His --Darkness bully boy Morgan.
Where was John Pockett then?
You may well be right Fr. Duddleswell (is that from Arthur Lowe?). The entire 'Chapter' (and those of influence sitting outside it) of the SRE era ought still come under the microscope but of course as they all apart from ++Andy John occupy their cathedral 'Stalls' there's fat chance of that happening. And this should also include the Diocesan Registrar, the fees-charging legal overseer, who was either blinkered or inept.
ReplyDelete+Morris, I understand, was drawn on the rack by his fellow Bench of Bishops for what they accused had been his involvement of the '7 Shots' in the Bangor pub. Fact is, he had joined the choir earlier for a drink but had left long before the incident. I am sure some competent, professional, external 'investigator' acting to examine the saga would establish the truth. Embarrassing if any such 'collective' enquiry were to be launched is that the pub in question still has the CCTV record of the alleged event. +Morris is not on it. Odd that the RB/Bench inquisitors haven't popped in to ask for Staff witness statements ... or the CCTV images.
+Bardsey has said he is moving on, so let this lie now. He's made it public that his mental health has suffered because of all this and he's now seeking a new ministry outside of the Diocese. Another casualty of all that's happened at Bangor, sadly.
DeleteDimitte et obliviscere
I can well imagine Dimitte et that this is true: and yet another of a worrying number of devoted, popular, priests to throw in the towel and quit Bangor leaving our diocese bereft of any talent. There is of course that cadre of 'Old Guard' elderly, retired priests who willingly and generously stand in to keep some of the remaining doors open, but these are few and far between. David should not just be seeking a new ministry outside of the Diocese - but for his sanity and happiness, outside Wales.
DeleteBangor is a shit hole just like the rest of the swamp.
DeleteDrain the lot.
>> Dimitte et obliviscere [above]
DeleteThe pseudonym sounds Latin, but in fact: French. Drop it. Let the matter go. Few of the clergy or perhaps AB contributing bloggers are that skilled in French. But I wholly agree. Asst.Bishop David was served a duff-hand and then hung out to dry by his peers. Yes, we ought all to focus on those who stocked up with bum wiping toilet paper and not on the scapegoats of Bangor and Llandaff's torrid and pathetic opinion-formers. Let's wish +David well and celebrate his energy in Anglican communion mission and ministry. There's a lot to be learned from reading St Mark's gospels.
@ Solum et et et… Thank you for your opinions. You present certainly one way of looking at Bishop Morris’ progress in the Diocese and his actions. Whilst sharing your opinion about wishing him well for the future, I take a different view. We are all accountable for our choices and actions, and whilst, I’m told, he is undoubtedly energetic and can be very personable, at least some of that energy would seem to have been expended in the pursuit of preferment. As to being dealt a ‘duff hand’ then yes and no. He was very unwise to throw his lot in so squarely with the former Subdean (before they so spectacularly fell out, leading to the latter’s downfall) and with the former Archbishop, and those were his free choices. Allegedly, he was very unwise to accept the largesse of the former Subdean through attendance at parties, and on trips abroad. To put it bluntly, he could have said no.
DeleteSome of us have to adhere to various principles of public life in the work we do. In that, how we are seen by others is as important as what is actually the case - we have to avoid creating the impression of collusion and corruption as well as avoiding the reality of being involved. That rests on discerning what is the appropriate thing to do for one in our position and to say no to anything that may compromise doing it.
So whilst I agree that Bishop Morris seems not to have been one of the principal architects of the Bangor scandals, his actions and choices appear to not be free from implication in some of them (not simply the ridiculous 7 shots issue). For a Bishop that is not a good reflection, and in my view should not be just ‘let lie’ because he has chosen to move on, much as I have sympathy if his mental health has suffered. I, for one, have no desire to persecute - just to raise issues of accountability that in my view can’t be dodged by those in senior office.
I hope Bishop Morris has reflected at length and learned from his mistakes, as only that way will he not repeat them in the future. I also hope his future ministry outside Bangor will not involve senior office for the time being, as pursuing preferment so determinedly seems to be what has led him into difficulty - being promoted before his character has been properly prepared for senior office. It may also be that he was promoted beyond his ability - I don’t know - but even if able, a person needs to be ready for senior office. So often they are not when they get it, so they need to learn - quickly.
I don't disagree.
DeleteDimitte et obliviscere
The entire Church in Wales is a cess pit of corruption.
ReplyDeleteLet it go broke.
ReplyDeleteTo see the entire Church in Wales as ‘a cess pit of corruption’ is deeply unfair on the hundreds of clergy and laypeople in parishes who seek to follow Jesus and try to be ‘steadfast in faith and active in service’.
Cymro Alltud
And where do you suggest they may be?
DeleteThe "steadfast in faith and active in service" left decades ago.
All that is left are the gullible.
Bewildered
Stop complaining about the CinW. You obviously hate it. Get off this blog and get a life.
Delete@ Celt
DeleteI suspect I speak for all when I say none of us 'hate' the Church-in-Wales otherwise we'd have no interest in the Ancient Briton site. What we might loathe (although not hate) are the buffoons who run it. A big and important difference.
And presumptious of you too to assume the role of Ancient Briton's 'proprietor' to instruct who should 'GET OFF THIS SITE'. Only AB has the editorial control over who and who not to unplug (as he has often done).
Cheeky bloody madam.
Surely teacher's milk monitor means get off this blog and get an afterlife??🤷🤷🤦🤦
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@ Old Bill
ReplyDeleteMadam, you can only speak for yourself.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteWhy is this blog so full of personal, vitriolic comments that are hardly ever supported by an iota of hard evidence? I see so much utterly egregious, throw away rubbish on here, invariably hiding behind a pseudonym. If you have something to say, please have some courage and put your name to it. If there are any replies to this, I shan't be responding I have better things to do with my time. JP
ReplyDeleteAnd yet, here you are.
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Yet a certain someone had plenty to say about June Osbourne - personally. I suppose one must bat for one's team, Batty Boy.
ReplyDeleteAnon and Anon
Odd that none of the Bangor contributors have reported on today's Diocesan Conference at the cathedral chaired I read by Archbishop ++Cherry. There surely must have been some eye-openers to report or even creep-like apologies from the cassock-hem clingers. As a priest still PTO in the diocese, was Rev Andrew John and his vicarette wife there in the pews as would be expected of diocesan clergy ... surely the Bangor scribes have some news of events? Was wine served after the Installation of the Dean as was common or was it dry in terms of both drinks and content? I'd already laid a £10 bet that the unpopular Ven. David Parry wouldn't dare show his face at St. Deiniol's under current climate. Apparently I'd have won ... but on the excuse that he has jetted off to meet his new born grand-daughter somewhere in darkest Africa. Yeah?
ReplyDeleteThe installation of the new Dean of Bangor was splendid. Her sermon was personal yet erudite. The Archbishop challenged and encouraged the diocese. The organ was played superbly and the congregation sang with great gusto. A beautiful Anglican act of worship as the diocese came together, with friends, and began to look towards a hopeful future with Christ at its centre.
ReplyDeleteThe Archdeacon of Bangor was always going to be away in October for the birth of his grandchild. Why is there a need to be petty about this? Rejoice at her safe arrival. It was a great conference and a beautiful service that reflected the best of Bangor Diocese: humble and rooted in Wales and the Welsh language.
ReplyDeleteI would be someone who had my doubts too about Cherry Vann as archbishop. On yesterday's visit; she has the making of an exceptional archbishop.
Oh, what a radiant occasion it was! The installation of the new Dean, Manon, was a truly holy and uplifting celebration, deepl rooted in the richness of Anglican tradition, yet alive with fresh hope and vision. Manon’s sermon struck a rare balance: both intellectually stirring and personally heartfelt, speaking to the soul and the mind alike. And with the Archbishop offering both challenge and encouragement, the moment surely resonated as one of renewal.
ReplyDeleteThe music, too - what a joy! A superbly played organ and a congregation singing with such gusto filled the space with a spirit of unity and praise that was tangible. Good to have +David back with us, looking relaxed and so well.
I was very deeply moved by a sense of Diocese gathered in one voice, turning together toward the future with Christ firmly at our heart. Truly a shining moment of grace, communion, and sheer promise - an unforgettable beginning to a new chapter in the life of the Diocese of Bangor.
Joy
Dw i'n cytuno. I agree without reservation
DeleteHow many of you were there?
DeleteDid you manage double figures?
Very strange there are no links to photographic evidence for independent verification or published communicant numbers.
Bewildered
What a pair of suck-ups and buttock kissers.
DeleteSickening 🤢🤮
"Deep rooted in the richness of Anglican tradition"?
DeleteUtter codswallop.
Priestesses have proven to be a curse and definitely not a blessing.
The growth of --Bazza's coven has proven to be in direct proportion to the diminution of the Church, the numbers don't lie but they're certainly being concealed by the RB, as are communicant numbers.
All heading in one direction ⬇️
There's a video of the service on the Cathedral's website.
DeleteStrange then that the Pantomime Horses 🐴 back ends above didn't think to provide a link to support their manure?
DeleteBewildered
Bewildered - are you too lazy to go on the Cathedral Website and find it for yourself. Lazybones. You'd have enjoyed the service. Uplifting, inspirational and prophetic. Simply joyous. Ruth, stay away, nasty!
DeleteJoy
Most easily found by looking at their Youtube channel.
DeleteDefinitely too disinterested but also have far better things to do with my time.
DeleteIt's usually the norm for those making the claims to provide the evidence in support of them.
Bewildered
@"Joy"
DeleteJust who do you think you are, trying to order/bully people to stay away?
There's only one response for such jumped up little Corporals, championed both by Winston Churchill and Harvey Smith.
Sorry to spoil the Installation BAFTAs and Oscars - which I am sure were 'lovely-darling' - along with the excellent news that the congregation sings in gusto when not drowned out by a costly and self-serving choir, but I was actually asking about the far more important (to both Diocese and the CinW) event of the Diocesan Conference .... or was that just an irrelevant warm-up act to the main event??
ReplyDeleteMe too. I'd like to know. But curiously, the more important Diocesan Conference detailing finances, diocesan staffing, facts and figures, wasn't - unlike the Installation of Dean - recorded for home-viewing Youtube or Zoom etc consumption by the faithful. And I have heard that many who pre-registered found that on arrival their e.mailed registrations had gone amiss so no voting cards for them. Two of the more awkard Q+As left to last by which time, oh dear, Conference had run out of time .... but why not the critical Bangor Conference made available live when Manon's rehearsed service was so lavishly managed? Who is the biggest audience: the people of Bangor Cathedral and Bro Deiniol, or the entire Diocese and Province of Wales?
DeleteTo “An Observer”, and others. It should be noted that the congregation singing “with gusto” was largely thanks to the many members of the choir who were singing in the congregation…
DeleteBenedictus
The Annual Report and Archbishop's address are available online: https://bangor.eglwysyngnghymru.org.uk/Cynhadledd2025/. The full DBF Annual Report is required to be submitted to the Charity Commission by the end of this month. The Diocesan Trust has a different accounting year and need not be submitted until January.
DeleteI think this faux joy is a little misplaced at Bangor Cathedral. Yes it is a new era (presuming the new Bishop is a sensible choice), but showing some sincere contrition might have been better way to go.
ReplyDeleteWhamab
Yes, Bangor Cathedral has a good steady hand a the helm, from what I've heared, there are aspects of the choir's conduct and ego which needs to be addressed and the dubeous heretical Welsh used for the Cathedral's Evening Prayer bought in by SRhE, as opposed to using the official 1664 or 1984 Welsh liturgy. Also there are questions regarding the appointment of that pons as Sub Dean. Was he covering something up for Andy John in return for his ordination?! Just a passing thought.
ReplyDeleteGrumpy
I think Grumpy Anonymous you raise valid points.
ReplyDeleteI wonder how many of us will commit ourselves to the Novena of Prayer that is asked of us from All Saints Day to the Enthronement on 8 November. It is a welcome challenge and change, and who knows what God can do when the church commits itself to pray.
The suggestion in the recent link that "millions" are leaving the CofE and that in consequence it is "rattled" is of course quite wide of the mark. If some overseas Anglican provinces are separating themselves from the Mother Church that makes the statement true insofar as their total number of adherents will amount to "millions", but it should be borne in mind that the decision to separate will have been taken not by the "millions" as individuals but on their behalf by their leaders. Yes, a few (mostly evangelical) members of the CofE are joining splinter groups which may be affiliated to Gafcon, but this will hardly be significant enough to "rattle" what's left of the CofE.
ReplyDelete@ Matthew
ReplyDeleteSurely, Matthew, 'cause and affect' comes into play when calculating migration from one movement of members/congregants from one denomination or branch of a denomination to another. Think of the exodus of 'established' church to the growth of the nonconformist Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterian or indeed the mass-exodus of Romans to Henry VIII 'CofE' or the flight from Rome in Germany to Lutherism ... it matters not whether its the 'adherents' or their 'leaders' who lead the desertion or the causes thereof; its the effect it has on the 'established' CinW or CofE in terms of destabilising the 'gig' that quite rightly 'rattles' the leadership and strategists. Cause rather than effect ought to be their priority.
*Old Bill: The "millions" although notionally in communion with it are not members of the CofE, so whether they make individual decisions to break communion or are directed to do so by their leaders is neither here nor there. The CofE (such as it is) remains its present size, except for those transferring to splinter groups.
DeleteManchester Pride has gone bust.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cpwvdvv70z7o
Excellent.
Best news this month.
It will be interesting to see if the charity commissioners pull their fingers out for a change and do their jobs.
DeleteBewildered
Emergency GB called to discuss appointment of Bishop of Bangor
ReplyDeleteOfficial announcement (with link to Archbishop's letter) here: https://www.churchinwales.org.uk/en/news-and-events/revised-proposals-for-appointment-of-bishop-of-bangor/. I wonder who might be chosen for this unenviable task -- a retired CinW bishop, or someone from outside?
DeleteGregory to Bangor just before he retires and Gerwhine to Asaph? More dismay?
DeleteFinally, common sense and wise judgment. Well done ++Cherry and the GB. Let’s hope they will now appoint a capable recently retired diocesan Bishop (preferably from outside the CiW) or second a capable suffragan. Unfortunately, there aren’t that many to choose from, and no doubt many of the good choices would not want the hassle of dealing with the aftermath of Andrew John and Siôn Rhys-Evans, and the sub-standard hangers on still in post. But however difficult it proves to find somebody, it’s the right move to avoid the possibility of a poor substantive appointment.
DeleteI agree with you wholeheartedly, Fr D, though we do need the right person in post. No one with any connection with Bangor during John’s time should be considered. An outsider to Wales would indeed be preferable.
DeleteBut so far ABW has made some very promising moves. Her theological reflection on the Bangor crisis during her diocesan conference was a devastating critique of John’s time there (pruning the vine!). She has been very open about her feelings about things and this new development just underlines how bad she considers things are in the diocese.
Any news about the charity commission investigation?
Deiniol’s pet springer
Yay! The return of +Barry Morgan to Bangor....
ReplyDeleteWhamab
As desirable as that would be, His --Darkness Bazza would never leave Llys Ego in Whitchurch, unfortunately.
DeleteThe Archbishop’s letter pretends to offer calm, measured governance — but the subtext is embarrassingly political.
ReplyDeleteShe chooses to:
• Paint the Diocese as unstable and unready for a permanent bishop
• Stall the Episcopal appointment
• Stall the Diocesan Secretary recruitment
• Harp on “governance, finance, and leadership” deficiencies
—all to spin a story of dysfunction that conveniently justifies the RB’s meddling and Bishop Andy’s removal. No evidence, no transparency, and no mention that Bangor has operated without a Diocesan Secretary for 18 months.
The Diocese knows the truth: the absence of a Secretary caused many of the very problems now being cited. The solution is obvious — fill the post properly. Not parachute in an “interim bishop” propped up by the same exhausted team that’s been left under-resourced and leaderless.
The RB let the vacancy drift for nearly two years. Governance frayed — now they use that decay as proof of diocesan failure. That’s not leadership. That’s gaslighting.
Appointing Joanna Thomas, with no DS experience, on a temporary basis only extends the dysfunction.
Can you hear us, RB?
We see this for what it is: a power grab dressed up as pastoral care.
The Electoral College did its work — profiles, advertising, candidate sounding — yet suddenly the Diocese is “not ready” to elect. Why? No reason given.This isn’t due diligence. It’s outcome management.
It paints Bangor’s clergy and laity as incompetent to mask central interference.
So let’s be clear:
Will the clergy at the Extraordinary GB finally stand up to the Provincial Team — to the Eye of Sauron in Cardiff — and say no more?
No more punishment.
No more rule from the centre.
No more politics disguised as care.
No more lies and hypocrisy.
No more telling a diocese what it needs while ignoring its people.
No more silence.
No more fear.
Woe to the Bench for your silence.
Woe to the RB for your betrayal.
Woe to the Archbishop for protecting the institution’s image at the expense of Bangor’s integrity.
-Cut To The Chase.
The Bangor onnishambles has provided the ideal opportunity to put into action the recommendations of the Harries report and start merging Dioceses.
DeleteAmalgamate Bangor with St. Asaph and be done with it.
... and get rid of half the archdeacons of both diocese while you're at it.
Delete@CCTC - I completely agree that the Diocese should not have been left to drift for so long after SRE’s disappearing act, but that was down to Andrew John, and his capacity for making good decisions has been laid bare for the world to see. Other than that, I have a huge amount of sympathy for the good, committed laity and clergy there will no doubt be in Bangor, and who deserve to be properly supported and resourced in their ministries. But for as long as people implicated in the scandals remain in senior posts there, and there is potential for someone linked to it all to be elected Bishop, I concur with the Archbishop that the Diocese is not ready. I also think it is hugely unfair to expect a newly appointed Bishop of Bangor to sort it all out and then live with the consequences of the inevitable ill feeling that comes from whichever quarter feels hard done by in the sorting out process for the rest of their ministry there. I have undertaken troubleshooter roles like this on parish and deanery levels, and it is far more productive most of the time to sort out major problems in a time limited appointment. Then the new person can come in, unsullied by the sorting out process, and start on an even keel.
DeleteAnnounced yesterday that the UK Police Service (at national level) has appointed a somewhat tough-nut Major-General (Commandant of the RMA Sandhurst) to spearhead a total review of senior management appointments, discipline, leadership etc. across the Police service.
DeleteBangor's recovery? Shoot the Bishops. BRING IN THE ARMY !!!!
@An Observer
DeleteOnly half of the Archdemons?
Can you name even one half-decent one?
Both @Lux et Veritas and @An Observer offer common sense solutions. Anyone know if the GB and RB are listening or even aware?
ReplyDeleteMerging the two Dioceses would also result in considerable savings to be made over duplication of jobs in the Diocesen Boards of Finance, the Parsonage Boards, Widows and Dependents Funds and so on.
DeleteHowever, the smart money says Cherry doesn't have the balls to do it.
Ruff'n'tumble
DeleteNot to mention the revenue income from the sale of the now over-sized, totally under-utilised, extravagantly refurbished (huge cost) by SRE, Bangor city centre 'Diocesan Office/Centre' which has asset value. Its current use is as storeroom for the Diocesan photocopier and small offices for a much reduced number of staff who work part-time. Even after spending thousands on it in some grand plan of his, Sion ap Rhys then decamped to set up his own office as Diocesan Secretary in his grace and favour Deanery. Person of same grandeur as de-frocked Prince Andrew. Sale of the diocesan centre for redevelopment as a bespoke business-class hotel would bring in immediate revenue (and halt the ongoing and huge costs of maintenance). Ditto St.Asaph probably. Then the two combine and rent an affordable Joint small 'CinW Branch Office' midway and accessible to all in somewhere like Conwy.
Who could this interim bishop be? Someone has probably been asked already, at least approached. That’s how it works. The GB meeting is a foregone conclusion. One or two objections perhaps. Could Paul Davies be persuaded to return? Is he the one they have in mind? Not sure of the wisdom But behind all of this I suspect that the two years will be ample time for the bishop in waiting. She being Manon James.
ReplyDeleteLovely thought Rhigyfarch, but wishful thinking. Anyone who knows Paul Davies will know he is blissfully happy in Dorking (Dioc. of Guildford) and the probability that wild horses wouldn't draw him back to Bangor. Why would he want to ...?
DeleteAs someone who actively participated in covering up the circumstances of Sue Jones’s removal from office, Paul Davies would the worst possible choice. He was far too close to John.
DeleteDeiniol’s pet springer
The obvious person to be interim Bishop of Bangor is Beverley Mason, who retired as Bishop of Warrington on1 October and who, I believe, lives in North Wales. She has the experience of having been acting Bishop of Liverpool during the previous vacancy.
ReplyDeleteOf course if the interim bishop has to be fluent in Welsh the only retired bishop under 75 years of age who meets that criterion is, as far as I can see, Carl Cooper.
Cymro Alltud
What's "fluent in adultery" in Welsh?🤔
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