Thank you Kernow. Yes, AB is stepping back but comments are still being published to maintain a voice for those ostracised from the Church for keeping the faith.
I understand David Morris is being considered for DDO of St Asaph. It seems strange that so many are reluctant to take him in. Makes me wonder what the bishops know that we don't.
I know the church in Wales are not beyond paying out large sums in hush money. The previous director of education at St Asaph was given in the region of £120000 in a non disclosure agreement.
Another pending HR nightmare for Gregory is the formerly disgraced DoM at Bangor cathedral is now DoM at St Paul's Colwyn Bay. If you change diocese, the safeguarding concerns don't seem to matter.
'Concerned exile' You're sharing a bizarre perception of the situation, which I believe to be folly. It's not a "pending HR nightmare" that the former DoM has been hired elsewhere. There were never any safeguarding concerns about him. If there were any safeguarding concerns, then they would have been made public, or he would have been suspended (like SRE and many before) before doing something like the walkout. He was dismissed for data protection issues and the cathedral disliking his outspoken nature, based on the statement issued by the cathedral. The cathedral have clearly been embarrassed by the exposure of their ill deeds, so I am sure that if an opportunity arose to slander the DoM or suggest that he had broken safeguarding rules, they would have taken it. From speaking with many sane people, the consensus is that the DoM has been victimised, and the cathedral in general has been more disgraced by his dismissal. This is perhaps indicated by the size of the current choir and congregation.
Furthermore, to my knowledge, the former DoM is currently director of music at the university and works in various other roles locally. These do not appear to have been affected by what has happened at the cathedral. Do you not think that they would have done appropriate checks if a real safeguarding issue had occurred?
Regardless of your opinion on who was at fault in the situation at the cathedral, it is unfair to imply that adequate checks and precautions are not being taken elsewhere. When something like this happens, the Christian thing to do is NOT to ostracise the person involved and suggest that they should not be employed by any church in the area. Perhaps you forget that before his dismissal, the DoM raised thousands of pounds to save the jobs of the lay clerks at the cathedral. I am by no means affiliated with the DoM, but your inaccurate comment seems to be written with the intention of misrepresenting his clean safeguarding record and spreading lies.
That wouldn’t be a bad job for Bishop Morris, if he got it, though on another thread someone has mentioned the Archdeaconry of Wrexham will soon be coming up. It does amuse me how many of those who appointments have gone badly wrong in other Dioceses are surfacing in St Asaph… Perhaps SRE will surface as the new Archdeacon of Wrexham!!
Deiniol, I don't think there are any. If there were any, the cathedral would have definitely publicised it by now because they have been embarrassed in the church music and clerical world. I have spoken to people across the country about this, and they seem to agree that his dismissal seems to have been because he caught and exposed the cathedral being underhanded (which doesn't appear to be a new concept to them).
Let's not forget that Joe Cooper (DoM Bangor) was nothing more and nothing less than an 'employee' of the Cathedral handpicked, albeit, without his job advertised by the former, disgraced, sub-Dean SRE. He would have read his Terms and Conditions of Employment and signed his employment contract. As with any employer, they have the right to sack him for ANY proven breach without making good-cause public. If Cooper felt hard-done by, the doors to Industrial Tribunal would have been open to him. He apparently had chosen not to. It is only conjecture that his dismissal was tied to 'safeguarding' concerns.
Cooper was a talented (but not too popular) musician outside the choir but he was not the keystone which held the Cathedral together. His (perhaps) fault was that he assumed himself himself irreplaceable and of a higher order than the Dean and Chapter. Silly chap.
Very well put Observer. Mr Cooper also made the huge mistake of taking his disputes and opinions of the Chapter onto social media and posted using his real name. Yes, any person has the right of free speech, and can say what they want, within the law. But as anybody who has ever been an employee knows, even if you don’t have a clause in your contract about commenting in public about your employer without their permission, there are always consequences of one kind or another to doing so. Very naive of him to assume the Chapter wouldn’t act against him for the things he wrote.
An observer – his job was very clearly advertised; you can still find the advertising posts online! He also is unlikely to have been handpicked, as he isn't originally from Bangor and wasn't involved with the cathedral before his role (I'm guessing). For all we know, he could be going through a tribunal right now. Even if he has chosen not to, perhaps this was because he has been so hurt by how he has been treated he does not feel ready to fight it? Either way, it's not fair to make false conjectures as 'concerned exile' did. Yes, I agree that as with any employer, the cathedral had the right to dismiss him, and perhaps it was unwise of him to knowingly (or unknowingly) breach the terms of his contract (assuming he was even given one; it wouldn't surprise me if the cathedral neglected to do this). However, my point is that it seems a gross overreaction to dismiss him over something which is relatively trivial in comparison to the major wrongdoings committed by clergy and staff at the cathedral, some of whom are still in post. In a similar vein, posting a statement about his dismissal was an interesting choice when no statement was issued about Andy John or SRE, and still no accountability or true transparency has taken place in regard to the financial issues that the cathedral claims to be going through (though they have found the money for various new roles and developments).
Speaking to people on the inside, as I often do, on all sides of the disagreements, it appears that Cooper asked for terms and conditions and a contract for nearly four years but was denied one by the chapter every time.
@ Deiniol Pretty unlikely Deiniol. Its hardly likely that for all their faults, the HR Department of the RB or even Cathedral would unlawfully refuse an employee a Contract of Employment which, is a obligatory after six months. Unless of course, Cooper had opted for self-employment terms so as to exploit his other lines of income in which case he could have been 'sacked' but rather his self-employed service to the cathedral simply cancelled. I wonder why he no longer speaks up for himself. The horse has now bolted so the stable door wide open.
An Observer, I have fact-checked this with someone within the cathedral; apparently it is true, and he did ask for a contract multiple times and was not given one. It wouldn't be a surprise that the cathedral neglected to give him a contract, particularly considering their leadership at the time. In regard to him publicly 'speaking up', have you not considered that he might simply be tired of dealing with the unchristian allegations and awful decisions coming from the cathedral, their supporters, and those misled by their dodgy statements? I don't know him personally, but I can certainly imagine this to be the case.
As someone who worked in the Cathedral for two years under the management of SRE, I was never given a contract despite requesting one at least once a month.
I was then made redundant by text!
I do believe HR law is now being observed and applied correctly since that man disappeared!
If you were observant it might not have escaped your attention that some time ago, contracts of employment, terms and conditions were obligatory from day 1 of employment. Bewildered
Maybe the work David Morris is doing for the RB is working out a package of generous reparations for all those treated unjustly by the mismanagement in Bangor. We can only hope. He’d be in a good position to know who to compensate.
@AB Maybe the recent posts on the previous tag ref the withdrawal of former ++Davies PTO or function as Priest in Wales is worth thinking to this site ... as many might not otherwise be aware of it.
Cherry Vann apart, this makes it a hat-trick of three duff Welsh archbishops in a row (including Barry Morgan) to have brought grief to the C-in-W. It says nothing for the system which elects them and even less for the weaklings from the various diocese who simply nod them through.
Yes, as the system says that the Archbishop has to be chosen from among the Bishops, that leaves a very small field. One can't do what the CofE did in bringing in the "outsider" Rowan Williams to be ABC. Hence it is vitally important that the right people are chosen to be Bishops in the first place.
Standby everyone for release on Friday 6th March of the long-awaited report into the full woes of Bangor Diocese and Cathedral and if they have the courage to publish it in tandem, the DAF shock-horror report highlighting the actual and deplorable bottom-line of the Cathedral's financial deficiencies. If they had gumption, the entire Chapter - along with overseer of SRE antics, +Mary Stallard - should perhaps prepare their letters of resignation. En bloc.
Some Scottish councils are about to quadruple council tax on second homes in their area. Here’s your starter for 10: Which ‘Andy’s Team’ Bangor diocese priest has a holiday home in Scotland?
Was talking to my friend about it over coffee, and all he said that he is now reconsidering his position with regards to keeping his past orders of services, which he WAS threatning to dispose of, but reconsidered this and now is back on the cards. Eye in the Sky
Quietly forgotten in the continuing shame of Bangor Cathedral is the discrete withdrawal of Bangor City Council from awarding the cathedral its prestigious 'Freedom of the City' status marking St Deiniol's 1,500 year foundation last year. There were grand plans to hand the Seal of Freemanship over at the cathedral last September ... but then the disclosures began to rain down and the City Council quickly realised it would be a major embarrassment to the City itself so bunkered down to a hushed-up 'exit stage left'. While the saga continues, there are, apparently, no plans to gift the cathedral the accolade in the near or even long future. Does it matter? Probably not but it is again evidence that Bangor cathedral has lost the support of the community it is centred in. Others who have received the privilege are Bangor University, Lord Baden-Powell, Prime Minister David Lloyd-George ... and even the BBC in Bangor for their WWII wartime broadcasting.
I think the report is good, albeit a little selective about details - I would like to have seen more about where the money actually went, as without that level of detail it becomes very hard to distinguish what (if anything) might be classed as embezzlement (inappropriate use of monies for personal gain/benefit) and what the less serious inappropriate or unlawful handling and use of funds (everything where no individual benefited personally from it). A lot of allegations have been thrown around, and it would be good to establish what is and isn’t accurate.
That having been said, what’s there makes the situation whereby SRE has walked away absolutely untroubled by any kind of consequential action utterly extraordinary. It is also pretty damning on the leadership of Andrew John.
@ Anon As you're obviously visiting earth from outer space you're excused your ignorance. If however you live on Mars you oughtn't to concern yourself with David Morris. Check out Donald J Trump instead. He's a retired Human.
There is a humungous elephant in the room of the Bangor Governance Report, that is (not quite) Epsteinesque in its consequences. If you know what's been happening in Lincoln, just join the dots - and I suspect this is why there has been no appetite to begin formal disciplinary proceedings against either the former Archbishp nor the former Sub-Dean!
Leaving aside the lack of due ecclesisastical process against the two protagonists at the heart of this Report (which is only fuelling rumours that will not go away), there are issues here that should be passed to the police to assess whether they meet the threshold for criminal investigation.
As we all know, this is just the (anti)climax of sixteen years of incompetence, deviousness and arrogance from an intellectually challenged, insecure and entitled non-entity that was promoted far above his abilities - and given free reign to unleash his pathology on a diocese that deserved much better (and could have had much better).
If memory serves correctly (of Ancient Briton entry/entries last year), North Wales Police were alerted to irregular and unauthorised financial 'shenanigans' in the spending of SRE along with allegations made then of complaints referencing misbehaviours regarding youth and females. But without someone stepping forward with hard evidence they were unable to progress inquiries. The 'bar' or threshold of investigation is, however, far lower for the Charities' Commission and lower even for the RB's Internal Audit management ... but again none of the crocodile-tears senior clergy of Bangor had the balls to step forward. They all, of course, pretend lamentation for was allowed over years to go unreported (by them) but appear still to be spell-bound by the dangerous throat-hold of former Archbishop John and his disciple, Sion ap-Rhys Evans. Cowards and hypocrites. Sadly, they are still all there, robed in their Stalls, gloating in their titles of Reverend Canons, Venerables, and with Mary Stallard at least, Right Reverend etc with no apparent remorse for their pathetic weaknesses. Clean hands? Absolutely not.
Absolutely right, Observer. Let’s not also forget the recently departed Mr Morris, alleged beneficiary of SRE’s ‘funded’ largesse turned whistleblower when the two of them had a squabble, rewarded for the convenient avenue for problem solving he offered to his Lord and Master (no, not Jesus, I mean the former Archbishop, of course) by elevation to the episcopate. In post there for at least some of SRE’s pretend papacy.
Ah but ,Menai, Rome (a bit like Putin) has its own form of extreme judgement reserved for those who cross the money-squirreling line. Remember Roberto Calvi, head of Banco Ambrosso the 'Vatican Bank' tasked by Rome to launder billions of illicit dollars connected to among others, the Mafia. Profiteering from money-laundering including investing drugs-money added significantly to the Papal slush-funding coffers. The Vatican was not pleased when their 'profit margins' suggested some of it - lots of it - was being creamed off. Next seen of Signor Calvi of the dubious P6 Masonic Lodge (another exclusive Club within the Vatican) was of him hanging by the neck, dead, under London's Blackfriar's Bridge. Obvious suicide said PC Plod (Commander Hughie Moore) of the City of London Police (himself deep into Masonic Lodge dealings with links to the P6 and others in Rome as later found): Murder said the Italian Police who pointed their finger as the 'team what done it'. The case-file remains an 'Open Verdict'
Either way, poor Alberto Calvi for thinking that as with the latest Vatican 'scandal' you cite he could trust the Vatican courts of justice and 'appeals'.
Thankfully, this form of extreme and efficient retribution hasn't yet dawned on the RB or C-in-W as mechanism for closing the books despite the Menai Bridge being conveniently close to Bangor cathedral !!!
Word has it that Dean Manon James will be putting her name forward to the Electoral College to become next Bishop of Bangor. Apart from having done nothing to turn Bangor Cathedral around since her installation except perhaps oversee further reduction in congregant numbers, if appointed, then this would re-set the turmoils of St Deiniols back again: the search for a decent cathedral dean after four consecutive 'duds' about as improbable as President Trump becoming Pope.
Seems to me, Ceri Llan, that the C-in-W Electoral College is to the Anglican church what 'the Assisted Dying Bill' is to Parliament. Either way, the outcome is the same ... death-knell. All well and good for the C-in-W to bleat: 'but this is the way we have always done it since the reign of King Halibut XIV so why change?!'
As with King Halibut XIV I fear we've had our chips ....!
I doubt she’ll be the only former/current staff member from what passes for a theological training institute. I gather the Principal’s level of desperation to become a Bishop has long since reached fever pitch - most likely in inverse proportion to his suitability for the office. But since when has that stopped them?
I wish that the Bishops would follow the advice of Dr Prysor-Jones and Dean McPhate in Church Times on 30 May 2025 to commission a formal inquiry into the diocese and cathedral of Bangor since 2011, led by a qualified person with a theological and pastoral background, assisted by advisers in organisational management, canon law, civil law, and criminal law, with power to see all documentation, take evidence, make findings of fact, make recommendations, and ensure publication of the final report.
It seems to me that nothing less than this will do. As Dr Prysor-Jones and Dean McPhate wrote 'There can be no peace without justice'.
And from where exactly might there be found "a qualified person with a theological and pastoral background, assisted by advisers in organisational management, canon law, civil law, and criminal law, with power to see all documentation, take evidence, make findings of fact, make recommendations, and ensure publication of the final report."? 🤔 Callaghan Square? 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
And anyway, pound to a penny, those called to account for themselves or give evidence would claim the canon law equivalent of the US 5th Amendment and those (many) repeat offenders probably the ecclesiastical equivalent of 'double jeopardy'. In any case, what possible good would come from an inquiry led by a theologian or one purporting to be learned in 'pastoral caring'? What's needed in Bangor - and perhaps across the Province - is some retired criminal court Judge or an equally and retired hard-nosed police officer experienced in forensic evidence gathering of money-movements, accounts and even fraud. Now that would fire some jitters within those with dirty hands.
I second that Old Bill. The CiW is completely unfit to investigate this, the C of E is no better, and any theologian without legal and/or investigative training is ill equipped to do it, and far more likely to go easy on all concerned. It needs a recently retired High Court Judge who is not a member of the CiW or C of E, not a Freemason or a member of any club that anyone being investigated or connected closely with them is also a member of. Then there needs to be a team of specialists in non-legal areas (especially ecclesiology) available to that person to advise on matters with which they will not be familiar. As someone with a non-colluding approach, they could do far worse than asking Martyn Percy to advise on ecclesiology and church polity.
The likelihood of that happening is, I’m afraid, zero. I view the current Archbishop in a broadly favourable light (something I know that isn’t shared by all here) but I can’t even see her being keen to allow someone with a genuinely forensic approach to investigation free access to find all the skeletons. I suspect the real findings would make what we do know look like child’s play.
If the fast decline of congregant numbers at Bangor cathedral were not worrying enough for Dean Manon (installed as one seems to remember as the Great Redeemer who would turn everything around), then the embarrassment of almost deserted SRE IKEA pews at the much publicised Chrism Mass on Thursday (even with the Archbishop of Wales 'topping the bill') must send shudders through the diocese. I hear that Good Friday was almost abandoned by the worshipping public.
Prime Minister Harold Wilson effectively rid the Anglican church of 'Whit Sunday'; Harvest Festivals have all but disappeared, 2026 could be the last of our traditional Easter services ... is Christmas safe?
Judging from the video (although of course we can't see the back half of the nave) the Chrism Mass was quite well attended - especially as it was at 11am on a Wednesday (not Thursday) when many folk would have been at work.
While I agree that we seem to have lost Whitsun as a national "thing", I'm not so sure about the rest. I have been a Minister - admittedly nonconformist - for nearly 40 years and every church I've been in has celebrated (and expected to celebrate) Harvest Festival. So might the problem in Anglican churches, if Harvest is indeed less celebrated, be a too-rigid adherence to the Lectionary which precludes going "off piste" for one Sunday? As far as Good Friday is concerned, the opening of shops has to some extent had a beneficial effect as people actually see Walks of Witness and the like! In passing, I also recall being in Glasgow in the late 70s and being amazed at how hard it was to find a Good Friday church service - things may have changed since then of course.
Is that it then? Are you shutting up shop... I sincerely hope not, but if so, thanks for all you've done here.
ReplyDeleteThank you Kernow. Yes, AB is stepping back but comments are still being published to maintain a voice for those ostracised from the Church for keeping the faith.
ReplyDeleteI understand David Morris is being considered for DDO of St Asaph. It seems strange that so many are reluctant to take him in. Makes me wonder what the bishops know that we don't.
ReplyDeleteI know the church in Wales are not beyond paying out large sums in hush money. The previous director of education at St Asaph was given in the region of £120000 in a non disclosure agreement.
Another pending HR nightmare for Gregory is the formerly disgraced DoM at Bangor cathedral is now DoM at St Paul's Colwyn Bay. If you change diocese, the safeguarding concerns don't seem to matter.
Concerned exile
Was that the former Director of Education who had the public falling out with Caiaphas?
Delete'Concerned exile'
DeleteYou're sharing a bizarre perception of the situation, which I believe to be folly. It's not a "pending HR nightmare" that the former DoM has been hired elsewhere. There were never any safeguarding concerns about him. If there were any safeguarding concerns, then they would have been made public, or he would have been suspended (like SRE and many before) before doing something like the walkout. He was dismissed for data protection issues and the cathedral disliking his outspoken nature, based on the statement issued by the cathedral. The cathedral have clearly been embarrassed by the exposure of their ill deeds, so I am sure that if an opportunity arose to slander the DoM or suggest that he had broken safeguarding rules, they would have taken it. From speaking with many sane people, the consensus is that the DoM has been victimised, and the cathedral in general has been more disgraced by his dismissal. This is perhaps indicated by the size of the current choir and congregation.
Furthermore, to my knowledge, the former DoM is currently director of music at the university and works in various other roles locally. These do not appear to have been affected by what has happened at the cathedral. Do you not think that they would have done appropriate checks if a real safeguarding issue had occurred?
Regardless of your opinion on who was at fault in the situation at the cathedral, it is unfair to imply that adequate checks and precautions are not being taken elsewhere. When something like this happens, the Christian thing to do is NOT to ostracise the person involved and suggest that they should not be employed by any church in the area. Perhaps you forget that before his dismissal, the DoM raised thousands of pounds to save the jobs of the lay clerks at the cathedral. I am by no means affiliated with the DoM, but your inaccurate comment seems to be written with the intention of misrepresenting his clean safeguarding record and spreading lies.
Bangor Dweller.
That wouldn’t be a bad job for Bishop Morris, if he got it, though on another thread someone has mentioned the Archdeaconry of Wrexham will soon be coming up. It does amuse me how many of those who appointments have gone badly wrong in other Dioceses are surfacing in St Asaph… Perhaps SRE will surface as the new Archdeacon of Wrexham!!
DeleteWhat safeguarding concerns?
ReplyDeleteDeiniol, I don't think there are any. If there were any, the cathedral would have definitely publicised it by now because they have been embarrassed in the church music and clerical world. I have spoken to people across the country about this, and they seem to agree that his dismissal seems to have been because he caught and exposed the cathedral being underhanded (which doesn't appear to be a new concept to them).
DeleteBangor dweller
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cj98z1np8m0o
ReplyDeleteNobody cared.
Nobody listened.
Rowan Williams and bully boy --Bazza both implicated.
"We continue as we please".
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
DeleteNow that *is* news.
DeleteWho has done the revoking?
Hey ho!
🤣
Why was the above comment removed when it is quite clear that Shirley has had his PTO removed?
DeleteBewildered
Let's not forget that Joe Cooper (DoM Bangor) was nothing more and nothing less than an 'employee' of the Cathedral handpicked, albeit, without his job advertised by the former, disgraced, sub-Dean SRE. He would have read his Terms and Conditions of Employment and signed his employment contract. As with any employer, they have the right to sack him for ANY proven breach without making good-cause public. If Cooper felt hard-done by, the doors to Industrial Tribunal would have been open to him. He apparently had chosen not to. It is only conjecture that his dismissal was tied to 'safeguarding' concerns.
ReplyDeleteCooper was a talented (but not too popular) musician outside the choir but he was not
the keystone which held the Cathedral together. His (perhaps) fault was that he assumed himself himself irreplaceable and of a higher order than the Dean and Chapter. Silly chap.
Very well put Observer. Mr Cooper also made the huge mistake of taking his disputes and opinions of the Chapter onto social media and posted using his real name. Yes, any person has the right of free speech, and can say what they want, within the law. But as anybody who has ever been an employee knows, even if you don’t have a clause in your contract about commenting in public about your employer without their permission, there are always consequences of one kind or another to doing so. Very naive of him to assume the Chapter wouldn’t act against him for the things he wrote.
DeleteThere was a "keystone that held the Cathedral together"?
ReplyDelete🤣🤣🤣🤣
Pull the other one.
An observer – his job was very clearly advertised; you can still find the advertising posts online! He also is unlikely to have been handpicked, as he isn't originally from Bangor and wasn't involved with the cathedral before his role (I'm guessing). For all we know, he could be going through a tribunal right now. Even if he has chosen not to, perhaps this was because he has been so hurt by how he has been treated he does not feel ready to fight it? Either way, it's not fair to make false conjectures as 'concerned exile' did. Yes, I agree that as with any employer, the cathedral had the right to dismiss him, and perhaps it was unwise of him to knowingly (or unknowingly) breach the terms of his contract (assuming he was even given one; it wouldn't surprise me if the cathedral neglected to do this). However, my point is that it seems a gross overreaction to dismiss him over something which is relatively trivial in comparison to the major wrongdoings committed by clergy and staff at the cathedral, some of whom are still in post. In a similar vein, posting a statement about his dismissal was an interesting choice when no statement was issued about Andy John or SRE, and still no accountability or true transparency has taken place in regard to the financial issues that the cathedral claims to be going through (though they have found the money for various new roles and developments).
ReplyDeleteBangor dweller
Hear hear.
DeleteSpeaking to people on the inside, as I often do, on all sides of the disagreements, it appears that Cooper asked for terms and conditions and a contract for nearly four years but was denied one by the chapter every time.
ReplyDeleteLlandaff 2.0
Delete@ Deiniol
ReplyDeletePretty unlikely Deiniol. Its hardly likely that for all their faults, the HR Department of the RB or even Cathedral would unlawfully refuse an employee a Contract of Employment which, is a obligatory after six months. Unless of course, Cooper had opted for self-employment terms so as to exploit his other lines of income in which case he could have been 'sacked' but rather his self-employed service to the cathedral simply cancelled. I wonder why he no longer speaks up for himself. The horse has now bolted so the stable door wide open.
An Observer,
DeleteI have fact-checked this with someone within the cathedral; apparently it is true, and he did ask for a contract multiple times and was not given one. It wouldn't be a surprise that the cathedral neglected to give him a contract, particularly considering their leadership at the time. In regard to him publicly 'speaking up', have you not considered that he might simply be tired of dealing with the unchristian allegations and awful decisions coming from the cathedral, their supporters, and those misled by their dodgy statements? I don't know him personally, but I can certainly imagine this to be the case.
Bangor Dweller
As someone who worked in the Cathedral for two years under the management of SRE, I was never given a contract despite requesting one at least once a month.
DeleteI was then made redundant by text!
I do believe HR law is now being observed and applied correctly since that man disappeared!
If you were observant it might not have escaped your attention that some time ago, contracts of employment, terms and conditions were obligatory from day 1 of employment.
DeleteBewildered
Maybe the work David Morris is doing for the RB is working out a package of generous reparations for all those treated unjustly by the mismanagement in Bangor. We can only hope. He’d be in a good position to know who to compensate.
ReplyDeleteOutsider
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cgrz1rx0ejzo
ReplyDeleteAnglican divisions deepen.
Hardly a surprise.
@AB
ReplyDeleteMaybe the recent posts on the previous tag ref the withdrawal of former ++Davies PTO or function as Priest in Wales is worth thinking to this site ... as many might not otherwise be aware of it.
Cherry Vann apart, this makes it a hat-trick of three duff Welsh archbishops in a row (including Barry Morgan) to have brought grief to the C-in-W. It says nothing for the system which elects them and even less for the weaklings from the various diocese who simply nod them through.
All rather disgraceful in my opinion.
Yes, as the system says that the Archbishop has to be chosen from among the Bishops, that leaves a very small field. One can't do what the CofE did in bringing in the "outsider" Rowan Williams to be ABC. Hence it is vitally important that the right people are chosen to be Bishops in the first place.
DeleteSeveral before bull boy Bazza weren't much cop either.
DeleteIt has been mentioned previously on AB but the rot started with Glyn Simon.
Standby everyone for release on Friday 6th March of the long-awaited report into the full woes of Bangor Diocese and Cathedral and if they have the courage to publish it in tandem, the DAF shock-horror report highlighting the actual and deplorable bottom-line of the Cathedral's financial deficiencies. If they had gumption, the entire Chapter - along with overseer of SRE antics, +Mary Stallard - should perhaps prepare their letters of resignation. En bloc.
ReplyDeleteWhere will this be published please?
DeleteThe swamp of Welsh journalism - what a surprise! https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/martin-shipton-house-raided-court-33539342
ReplyDeleteSome Scottish councils are about to quadruple council tax on second homes in their area. Here’s your starter for 10: Which ‘Andy’s Team’ Bangor diocese priest has a holiday home in Scotland?
ReplyDeleteHappy vacation, Rev.
Deiniol’s pet springer
Custos:
ReplyDeleteOn line now Si under Bangor newslink and other sites. Read from P8 downwards, the preamble is Consultant-Speak and boring.
Is there a link to the report? I can't seem to find it. T hank you - SD
ReplyDeleteWas talking to my friend about it over coffee, and all he said that he is now reconsidering his position with regards to keeping his past orders of services, which he WAS threatning to dispose of, but reconsidered this and now is back on the cards.
ReplyDeleteEye in the Sky
Quietly forgotten in the continuing shame of Bangor Cathedral is the discrete withdrawal of Bangor City Council from awarding the cathedral its prestigious 'Freedom of the City' status marking St Deiniol's 1,500 year foundation last year. There were grand plans to hand the Seal of Freemanship over at the cathedral last September ... but then the disclosures began to rain down and the City Council quickly realised it would be a major embarrassment to the City itself so bunkered down to a hushed-up 'exit stage left'. While the saga continues, there are, apparently, no plans to gift the cathedral the accolade in the near or even long future. Does it matter? Probably not but it is again evidence that Bangor cathedral has lost the support of the community it is centred in. Others who have received the privilege are Bangor University, Lord Baden-Powell, Prime Minister David Lloyd-George ... and even the BBC in Bangor for their WWII wartime broadcasting.
ReplyDeleteI think the report is good, albeit a little selective about details - I would like to have seen more about where the money actually went, as without that level of detail it becomes very hard to distinguish what (if anything) might be classed as embezzlement (inappropriate use of monies for personal gain/benefit) and what the less serious inappropriate or unlawful handling and use of funds (everything where no individual benefited personally from it). A lot of allegations have been thrown around, and it would be good to establish what is and isn’t accurate.
ReplyDeleteThat having been said, what’s there makes the situation whereby SRE has walked away absolutely untroubled by any kind of consequential action utterly extraordinary. It is also pretty damning on the leadership of Andrew John.
Any chance you could post the report on here, or at least a link to it, please?
DeleteBewildered
The Report is published on the Diocesan website in a news item.
DeleteSo that's a "No" then.
DeleteMost helpful.
Not
Menai Strait.
DeleteHopefully you will find the report via the link below:
https://dioceseofbangor.contentfiles.net/media/documents/document/2026/03/Independant_Governance_Review_2026_Diocese_of_Bangor.pdf
Many thanks, most helpful.
DeleteWho is David Morris?
ReplyDeleteRetired CinW's priest
@ Anon
ReplyDeleteAs you're obviously visiting earth from outer space you're excused your ignorance. If however you live on Mars you oughtn't to concern yourself with David Morris. Check out Donald J Trump instead. He's a retired Human.
Of all that has been said about this catastrophic situation. "Who is David Morris" is the one comment that will make him cry.
ReplyDeleteDisgruntled exile
There is a humungous elephant in the room of the Bangor Governance Report, that is (not quite) Epsteinesque in its consequences. If you know what's been happening in Lincoln, just join the dots - and I suspect this is why there has been no appetite to begin formal disciplinary proceedings against either the former Archbishp nor the former Sub-Dean!
ReplyDeleteLeaving aside the lack of due ecclesisastical process against the two protagonists at the heart of this Report (which is only fuelling rumours that will not go away), there are issues here that should be passed to the police to assess whether they meet the threshold for criminal investigation.
As we all know, this is just the (anti)climax of sixteen years of incompetence, deviousness and arrogance from an intellectually challenged, insecure and entitled non-entity that was promoted far above his abilities - and given free reign to unleash his pathology on a diocese that deserved much better (and could have had much better).
If memory serves correctly (of Ancient Briton entry/entries last year), North Wales Police were alerted to irregular and unauthorised financial 'shenanigans' in the spending of SRE along with allegations made then of complaints referencing misbehaviours regarding youth and females. But without someone stepping forward with hard evidence they were unable to progress inquiries. The 'bar' or threshold of investigation is, however, far lower for the Charities' Commission and lower even for the RB's Internal Audit management ... but again none of the crocodile-tears senior clergy of Bangor had the balls to step forward. They all, of course, pretend lamentation for was allowed over years to go unreported (by them) but appear still to be spell-bound by the dangerous throat-hold of former Archbishop John and his disciple, Sion ap-Rhys Evans. Cowards and hypocrites. Sadly, they are still all there, robed in their Stalls, gloating in their titles of Reverend Canons, Venerables, and with Mary Stallard at least, Right Reverend etc with no apparent remorse for their pathetic weaknesses. Clean hands? Absolutely not.
DeleteAbsolutely right, Observer. Let’s not also forget the recently departed Mr Morris, alleged beneficiary of SRE’s ‘funded’ largesse turned whistleblower when the two of them had a squabble, rewarded for the convenient avenue for problem solving he offered to his Lord and Master (no, not Jesus, I mean the former Archbishop, of course) by elevation to the episcopate. In post there for at least some of SRE’s pretend papacy.
DeleteThey're all such rank amateurs and small timers in Bangor and the Cult in Wales.
DeleteIf you want a real scandal you need to go to the Vatican, where you're talking hundreds of millions of $$$$.
Vatican appeals court declares mistrial in the 'trial of the century' against a cardinal | The Independent https://share.google/2hdNFDyv9pO4ZJlWQ
Ah but ,Menai, Rome (a bit like Putin) has its own form of extreme judgement reserved for those who cross the money-squirreling line. Remember Roberto Calvi, head of Banco Ambrosso the 'Vatican Bank' tasked by Rome to launder billions of illicit dollars connected to among others, the Mafia. Profiteering from money-laundering including investing drugs-money added significantly to the Papal slush-funding coffers. The Vatican was not pleased when their 'profit margins' suggested some of it - lots of it - was being creamed off.
DeleteNext seen of Signor Calvi of the dubious P6 Masonic Lodge (another exclusive Club within the Vatican) was of him hanging by the neck, dead, under London's Blackfriar's Bridge. Obvious suicide said PC Plod (Commander Hughie Moore) of the City of London Police (himself deep into Masonic Lodge dealings with links to the P6 and others in Rome as later found): Murder said the Italian Police who pointed their finger as the 'team what done it'. The case-file remains an 'Open Verdict'
Either way, poor Alberto Calvi for thinking that as with the latest Vatican 'scandal' you cite he could trust the Vatican courts of justice and 'appeals'.
Thankfully, this form of extreme and efficient retribution hasn't yet dawned on the RB or C-in-W as mechanism for closing the books despite the Menai Bridge being conveniently close to Bangor cathedral !!!
Who doesn't remember "God's banker"?
DeleteBangor is chicken feed in comparison.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2rn250ddjo
ReplyDeleteTrans "girls" told to leave Girl Guides by September.
Excellent news, more common sense breaking out.
Even better news and not before time either.
Deletehttps://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/olympics/articles/cdj7dgvlj0no
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c3w3ez3xp92o
DeleteCommon sense definitely on the rise.
Couldn't have possibly happened to a nicer gold digger.🤣🤣
There’s at least one freemason on the chapter in Bangor, Old Bill.
ReplyDeleteDeiniol’s pet springer
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c20356v74k7o
ReplyDeleteThe end of days is nigh.
Who would have imagined this, even only 40 years ago.
To answer your question: God.
ReplyDeleteWhich god might that be, the god of the feminazis?🤣
DeleteAny contributor musing whether Bishop Ceirion Dewar is a true prophet with many of the answers to modern problems?
ReplyDeleteRetired CinWs priest
Highly unlikely. He and his supporters (how many are there?) seem quite cagey about his ecclesiastical pedigree.
DeleteCosplay bishop!!!! You don't seem to want to publish this, AB? I've messaged several times ;-(
DeleteOutsider.
Word has it that Dean Manon James will be putting her name forward to the Electoral College to become next Bishop of Bangor. Apart from having done nothing to turn Bangor Cathedral around since her installation except perhaps oversee further reduction in congregant numbers, if appointed, then this would re-set the turmoils of St Deiniols back again: the search for a decent cathedral dean after four consecutive 'duds' about as improbable as President Trump becoming Pope.
ReplyDeleteSeems to me, Ceri Llan, that the C-in-W Electoral College is to the Anglican church what 'the Assisted Dying Bill' is to Parliament. Either way, the outcome is the same ... death-knell. All well and good for the C-in-W to bleat: 'but this is the way we have always done it since the reign of King Halibut XIV so why change?!'
DeleteAs with King Halibut XIV I fear we've had our chips ....!
I doubt she’ll be the only former/current staff member from what passes for a theological training institute. I gather the Principal’s level of desperation to become a Bishop has long since reached fever pitch - most likely in inverse proportion to his suitability for the office. But since when has that stopped them?
ReplyDeleteI wish that the Bishops would follow the advice of Dr Prysor-Jones and Dean McPhate in Church Times on 30 May 2025 to commission a formal inquiry into the diocese and cathedral of Bangor since 2011, led by a qualified person with a theological and pastoral background, assisted by advisers in organisational management, canon law, civil law, and criminal law, with power to see all documentation, take evidence, make findings of fact, make recommendations, and ensure publication of the final report.
ReplyDeleteIt seems to me that nothing less than this will do. As Dr Prysor-Jones and Dean McPhate wrote 'There can be no peace without justice'.
Cymro Alltud
And from where exactly might there be found
Delete"a qualified person with a theological and pastoral background, assisted by advisers in organisational management, canon law, civil law, and criminal law, with power to see all documentation, take evidence, make findings of fact, make recommendations, and ensure publication of the final report."?
🤔
Callaghan Square?
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
And anyway, pound to a penny, those called to account for themselves or give evidence would claim the canon law equivalent of the US 5th Amendment and those (many) repeat offenders probably the ecclesiastical equivalent of 'double jeopardy'. In any case, what possible good would come from an inquiry led by a theologian or one purporting to be learned in 'pastoral caring'? What's needed in Bangor - and perhaps across the Province - is some retired criminal court Judge or an equally and retired hard-nosed police officer experienced in forensic evidence gathering of money-movements, accounts and even fraud. Now that would fire some jitters within those with dirty hands.
DeleteI second that Old Bill. The CiW is completely unfit to investigate this, the C of E is no better, and any theologian without legal and/or investigative training is ill equipped to do it, and far more likely to go easy on all concerned. It needs a recently retired High Court Judge who is not a member of the CiW or C of E, not a Freemason or a member of any club that anyone being investigated or connected closely with them is also a member of. Then there needs to be a team of specialists in non-legal areas (especially ecclesiology) available to that person to advise on matters with which they will not be familiar. As someone with a non-colluding approach, they could do far worse than asking Martyn Percy to advise on ecclesiology and church polity.
DeleteThe likelihood of that happening is, I’m afraid, zero. I view the current Archbishop in a broadly favourable light (something I know that isn’t shared by all here) but I can’t even see her being keen to allow someone with a genuinely forensic approach to investigation free access to find all the skeletons. I suspect the real findings would make what we do know look like child’s play.
If the fast decline of congregant numbers at Bangor cathedral were not worrying enough for Dean Manon (installed as one seems to remember as the Great Redeemer who would turn everything around), then the embarrassment of almost deserted SRE IKEA pews at the much publicised Chrism Mass on Thursday (even with the Archbishop of Wales 'topping the bill') must send shudders through the diocese. I hear that Good Friday was almost abandoned by the worshipping public.
ReplyDeletePrime Minister Harold Wilson effectively rid the Anglican church of 'Whit Sunday'; Harvest Festivals have all but disappeared, 2026 could be the last of our traditional Easter services ... is Christmas safe?
Judging from the video (although of course we can't see the back half of the nave) the Chrism Mass was quite well attended - especially as it was at 11am on a Wednesday (not Thursday) when many folk would have been at work.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPjvc0plri4
While I agree that we seem to have lost Whitsun as a national "thing", I'm not so sure about the rest. I have been a Minister - admittedly nonconformist - for nearly 40 years and every church I've been in has celebrated (and expected to celebrate) Harvest Festival. So might the problem in Anglican churches, if Harvest is indeed less celebrated, be a too-rigid adherence to the Lectionary which precludes going "off piste" for one Sunday? As far as Good Friday is concerned, the opening of shops has to some extent had a beneficial effect as people actually see Walks of Witness and the like! In passing, I also recall being in Glasgow in the late 70s and being amazed at how hard it was to find a Good Friday church service - things may have changed since then of course.
ReplyDelete