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| Archbishop of Wales Andrew John said while this had been "a sobering time, it also offers us opportunity for change" Source: BBC |
From the BBC: Multiple serious referrals made about cathedral
Among the complaints was a "culture in which sexual boundaries seemed blurred."
The Archbishop of Wales responded: "...while this had been 'a sobering time, it also offers us opportunity for change'."
Indeed. Concern was expressed in 2024 over the archbishop's judgement. He could set an example, take his own advice and go.
But if he were to go it would be out of the frying pan into the fire as the bench pushes its gay marriage agenda strongly favoured by the next in line, the bishop of St Asaph
The archbishop could hardly have made a stronger statement of intent than his appointment of the assistant bishop of Bangor, the so called bishop of Bardsey who is engaged to another man.
The Church in Wales already has an openly lesbian bishop, the bishop of Monmouth.
The direction is clear.
There can be little if any hope for the Church in Wales with such secular bishops. The archbishop should be a man of God not the zeitgeist.
Postscripts
Explained: The Bangor Cathedral scandal -Premier Christianity
"Since leaving the Diocese and the cathedral, Siôn Rhys Evans has been appointed to the role of Bursar and General Manager at Westminster College, Cambridge on a salary of up to £70,000. The college trains people to be ministers in the United Reform Church. Siôn Rhys Evans’ role is multi-faceted and includes financial planning.
ReplyDeleteNeither the Diocese of Bangor nor Westminster College will say whether he was given a reference by the Archbishop, who has faced calls for his resignation over the saga."
It's the same Modus Operandi that saw the expulsion of Gerwhine Capon from Llandaff Cathedral, only for the obnoxious little antiques dealer to show up as a parish priest in Thaxted.
Who provided references that time, Caiaphas, the chocolate teapot, both?
Now the little nancy is an Archdemon in At. Asaph diocese thanks to the tree eater.
Contrast and compare with the treatment meted out to Clifford Williams.
Rhys Evans is no longer in position at Westminster College. He's had the push.
DeleteSir Omicron Pi.
It reflects very badly on Andy John's judgement: the man was ordained against the advice of the discernment panel, as I understand it, & given a senior job far too early (a job he should probably never ever have been given, whatever his seniority). What on Earth was the Archbishop thinking of? It is an egregiously bad judgement; so bad in fact, that it calls into question his suitability to hold the office he does. Fr Mark
ReplyDeleteThe fact that there isn't more pressure on the chocolate teapot to resign just shows how little the people of Wales care about the CinW and how irrelevant it has become for them.
ReplyDeleteThe trips to Rome are very concerning as they involved the plastic dean, the chaplain who doesn't even have a degree in theology, the silenced archdeacon, bishop bardsey, and a diocesan staff member. All of whom are apparently known for their promiscuity.
The word on the street is it was some bust up on one of these trips to a whistle being blown on the archdeacon who was then disposed of quietly. All of this is of course unconfirmed.
I believe it was the same person to blow the whistle on the plastic dean.
The tree eater will be torn now. He could throw enough under the bus to finally clinch that long desired arch position. On the other hand, could he do it without jeapordising the newly appointed-underqualified closet case at st Giles? If anyone could pull off such Borgiary tactics, it's him.
-disgruntled exile
Can you shed more light on who the whistleblower was - is he or she in episcopal orders?
DeleteNoHolesBardsey
Sounds as though the Bangor Chapter is as corrupt and craven as the Llandaff Chapter.
DeleteUnworthy scum all.
Bewildered
And where is the Bishop of Bardsey during this time of utter turmoil for our Diocese - on his island? No. In America, on retreat. Who’s paying for that? We are!
ReplyDelete-PewBangor
"Sexual boundaries blurred" is an understatement but certainly sums up the cathedral and indeed the Cult in Wales quite well.
ReplyDeleteWhen you've got so-called "bishops" who are mentally ill and think that God actually created Adam and Steve, or Anne and Eve, and that the entire human race could have miraculously propagated from a "completely normal" union of such, well, that's just the start of the delusions.
Just in the choir at the cathedral you have boys that want to be girls, girls that want to be neither, and a whole host of oddities, much of which is sadly reflective of society now, but surely a place of Christian worship should be providing some help rather than encouragement. But then, what examples do the youngsters have to follow? Say no more.
Throughout the Gospels, we see Jesus constantly reaching out to those on the margins—those misunderstood, excluded, or dismissed by religious authorities of His day. He healed the broken, dined with outcasts, and offered grace where others gave judgment. His love was never conditional on someone’s conformity, but rather transformative because it met people where they were.
ReplyDeleteMany of the young people you mention are searching for belonging, hope, and truth—just like the rest of us. Rather than labeling or condemning them, might we ask how we can be vessels of Christ’s healing love in their lives?
A Church that reflects His heart will always be a refuge for the weary, not a tribunal for the different.
Let’s remember the call in Micah 6:8: “What does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.”
If we hold fast to that, we may find ourselves building bridges instead of barriers.
@Peacemaker
ReplyDeleteHumm. Cherry-picking the Old Testament to quote some obscure and one of the minor prophets (Micah) doesn't really wash with the congregants, members and hard-trodden folk of Bangor Cathedral. Micah the court poet (for that's all he was) also writes of how the 'mercenary prophets and seers who peddle their solemn office to please sinners' (ie the Bishop, dean and chapter of Bangor) are to be cut off from God. 'Mercenary priests were also upbraided and judgement fell upon them in Jerusalem ....' Micah presumably never visited Bangor, but he had some insight into the machinations of its cathedral.
Jesus often quoted the prophets—including the so-called "minor" ones—not because they were obscure, but because they spoke eternal truths. Micah’s call to “act justly, love mercy, and walk humbly with your God” is hardly obscure—it echoes everything Jesus embodied.
DeleteIf the words of a prophet sting, perhaps it's not the prophet that should be dismissed as irrelevant, but the hearts that feel exposed.
"Your sins are forgiven. Go, and SIN NO MORE"
DeleteMany not only have sinned (haven't we all?) but not only want and intend to go on sinning blatantly but also demand to be affirmed whilst doing so.
@Ad Clerum
DeleteYes—Jesus’ words, “Your sins are forgiven. Go, and sin no more,” are full of grace and challenge. But let’s not forget to whom He said them: to the outcast, the shamed, the one society wanted to stone. He didn’t start with condemnation—He started with mercy.
We are all sinners, as you rightly said. But Christ calls us not to sit in judgment of others, nor to decide who is “blatantly sinning”—that’s God’s work, not ours. Instead, He commands us to forgive “seventy times seven,” to remove the plank from our own eye, and to love others as He has loved us.
Affirmation doesn't have to mean approval of every action—it means seeing the image of God in someone, even as they wrestle with grace and truth.
Reconciliation begins when love leads, not when judgment speaks first.
I personally think this has little to do with sexuality. This is about a bunch of boys who have been elevated way beyond their station being given freedom to run amuck.
ReplyDeleteThe bishop of bardsey was known for being a naughty boy in st Michaels college, but got by through sucking up to the principal and throwing a few colleagues under the bus.
The chaplain , like the plastic dean, was promoted way beyond his station without completing a full curacy nor completing his theological education. He's off to Wrexham to finish off the church which is propping up that diocese. Jus because he had a good half a part time curacy there, he needs to watch his back. They'll have him for breakfast.
The plastic dean, well we all know about his lack of recommendation or completion of his curacy.
The BBC reporter who was banned from attending the church he was warden of in Llandudno. A full disclosure of his behaviour being made to the chocolate teapot.
And the archdeacon who's past was all over the papers.
There is one man who pu this situation together. He can't really blame the previous government. There is one man who put all these pieces in order. He needs to go.
Disgruntled exile
Calls for the Archbishop’s resignation may feel like action, but they risk oversimplifying a deeper failure.
DeleteBangor Cathedral was governed by a Chapter. If safeguarding and financial misconduct occurred, why didn’t they raise the alarm? Why didn’t those closest to the issues speak up?
Yes, the Archbishop appointed someone (appeared talented and promising) who later abused power. But hindsight makes betrayal look obvious. No leader can act on problems they aren’t told about.
Why didn’t those closest to the day-to-day life of the Cathedral raise the alarm? Why did no one step forward, if the culture was truly as toxic and controlling as is now being reported? Who knew of the culture of reckless drinking, promiscuity, and disregard for basic sexual boundaries within the Choir and beyond but chose to stay silent?
This isn’t about defending individuals—it’s about demanding more than scapegoats.
The real failure is systemic:
a culture that discouraged whistleblowing, enabled dysfunction, a community that perhaps prized appearances over truth and now expects one man to carry the blame.
If we want lasting reform, we must widen our lens. Demand transparency and humility from everyone in senior leadership. Reform safeguarding and complaints structures. Empower clergy and laity alike to speak truth to power—without fear.
Real reform means shared accountability, not easy targets. Truth deserves better.
I agree with much of what you say, however much of what you assumed didn't happen actually did. I personally told the archbishop of two of his appointments to be told to lighten up. I also questioned where the money has come from top pay for the pews to attend last two canons to be treated very aggressively and patronisingly. He was also warned about the BBC reporter, and whilst he hasn't been mentioned, his past crimes also involved atrocious language, unnacountable spending, and divisive and inappropriate behaviour on WhatsApp groups. Yet he still allowed him to rise through the ranks.
DeleteWhistles were blown, questions were asked, and disclosures were made. All of which ignored by one man. Sometimes it is simple.
Disgruntled exile
Appeared talented and promising?
DeleteYeah, right.
🤦
Disgruntled, which two appointments did you warn him about to be told to lighten up?
DeleteTracey
@Peacemaker I find your attempts to 'gracewash' all this a little repulsive. Not that I disagree with any of the general principles you cite, because I certainly do not. However, this is a case of abysmally poor leadership and behaviour over several years not just one case of being let down by a subordinate. This has to be the last straw for John, the litany of failure is so long now.
DeleteHe is the lead cleric in the whole of Wales and this happened, not just on his watch but because of his decisions and his own behaviour: where is the justice and accountability in all this? John always tries to hide behind Christian grace which cheapens and misrepresents it. If this were a parish priest their feet wouldn't touch the ground before the Archdeacon knocked on the door to suspend them pending a tribunal.
Whamab
You’re right—leadership carries weight, and scrutiny is necessary. But in our search for accountability, let’s remember where the serious misconduct actually lay: with those inside the Cathedral every day, in positions of trust and influence over the most vulnerable members- the Choir. The behaviour of which wasn't reported for various reasons, some of them self serving.
DeleteTo suggest that all blame lies solely with the Archbishop oversimplifies a complex failure of shared responsibility.
Yes, I agree that grace must not be a shield against justice. But neither should righteous anger eclipse truth or due process.
If we are to learn from this, we must be willing to see the full picture—not just the most visible figurehead.
What planet are you on?
Delete-PewBangor
@Peacemaker I do not suggest that John is solely to blame for the current scandal. However, as we are rightly reminded when it suits - it is his cathedral church, his seat. Ultimately responsibility lies with him. Any leader with a thread of integrity would've fallen on his sword (crook) by now.
DeleteAll of this was made possible by his reckless appointment of Sion Rhys Evans as sub-Dean , a newly ordained priest who had spectacularly failed his discernment panel. He wasn't 'legally' the Dean and in still in training - I mean what could go wrong, giving him free reign in a Cathedral? Who was his training incumbent/supervisor who allowed this narcissist carte blanche over the worship and finances of a cathedral church with the seat of the Archbishop of Wales sitting in the chancel. JOHN himself. Not even mentioning the conflict of interest being Diocesan Secretary!
Besides that, I could mention the circumstances around his divorce and remarriage. His behaviour with Cameron slated by the Monmouth report, getting inebriated on the widows' mites of the Church in Wales and turning the air blue with their language. His failure to deal appropriately with Penberthy after scandalising the church with her Tweetgate. She ended up drawing sick pay for the best part of two years before she 'retired'.
He showed outrageous favouritism as Chair in the SSM (September 2022) debate to the revisionist lobby, creating a hostile atmosphere on the floor of GB. I have no doubt, this intimidated some clergy to abstain, one more vote against the motion would have defeated it in the House of Clergy. This caused untold damage with several wonderful priests leaving apart from laity.
All this after running the Diocese of Bangor into the ground over several years. No, whatever others have done, they have done because of his poor judgment and he needs to do the right thing now and go. I'm flabbergasted that Professor Medwin Hughes (a very good man), the other members of the Bench (except Cameron) and Canon Simon Lloyd have not tried to force his hand.
Whamab
@tracey....yours for one, if you're the Tracey I think you are. The plastic dean, I spoke to him personally about the conflict of interest. And I warned him about safeguarding and gdpr issues with using WhatsApp groups within official organisations such as the core. You cannot protect the identity of your mobile number on WhatsApp. Whereas teams allowed just usernames.
DeleteDisgruntled exile
@ disgruntled exile
Delete1.Private, informal warnings don’t create accountability. Saying “I spoke to him personally” is not the same as submitting a written safeguarding concern, raising it with the diocesan safeguarding officer, or escalating directly to the Archbishop or Bench of Bishops. Informal chat ≠ due diligence.
2. Safeguarding systems rely on clear reporting
If someone sees a potential safeguarding or data protection breach (like the use of WhatsApp), the responsibility is not just to flag it to one individual—but to use the proper structures in place. If the system wasn’t used, that’s a shared failure.
So yes—this kind of comment proves:
• There were red flags, but not acted on in the way they needed to be.
• The failure wasn’t just “top-down” but included a breakdown in healthy institutional communication and safeguarding culture.
• Complaining to the person behaving 'badly' is not an approach which is likely to yield results.
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DeletePerhaps you're right peacemaker. So that I can learn, how exactly would you suggest I should have officially reported my doubts that the plastic dean was qualified or experienced enough to be appointed to his position. And how would this 'process' had secured a different outcome. Please inform me for the sake of my future learning and development.
DeleteDisgruntled exile
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DeleteFirstly, I said 'in the Choir and beyond'.
DeleteYou're absolutely right that there have been serious governance failures at the diocesan level, particularly around oversight, contracts, and staff protections. The lack of proper HR structures, clarity about roles, and financial scrutiny is deeply concerning, and if people were afraid to speak up because they had no security or were outright threatened, that's not just bad practice—it’s morally wrong.
We also need to be careful about assuming motivations. It's entirely possible that the Archbishop did underestimate how bad things had become—or placed too much trust in someone he shouldn’t have. That’s a failing, yes, but very different from wilful complicity or indifference to suffering.
The core issue here seems to be a wider systemic breakdown: blurred roles, weak accountability, and a culture where fear replaced transparency. That’s not something one person created alone, and it won’t be fixed by removing just one person either.
This visitation must shine a light on those deeper problems—not just allocate blame, but drive real reform.
Otherwise, we’re just moving pieces on a broken board.
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DeletePeacemaker - are you the Bishop of Bardsey by any chance?
DeleteNoHolesBardsey
I hear the frustration, and I agree that integrity and transparency should be modelled from the top. But just to add a bit of perspective: the reason the cathedral is the focus right now is because that’s where the complaints arose. That’s not scapegoating—it’s responding to the reality of where the harm was reported.
DeleteAs for the Archbishop “not being honest”—what exactly is he meant to be hiding? He can’t legally release full reports without breaching GDPR or duty of care, and he can’t speak about individual employment or safeguarding matters without risking further harm or litigation.
Silence doesn’t automatically mean deceit—it can sometimes be the cost of doing things properly and legally.
Yes, we should review diocesan structures too if they’ve failed—but let’s not confuse legal restraint with deliberate obfuscation.
The challenge now is making sure the process is consistent, fair, and focused on healing, not just blame.
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DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
Delete@Deiniol I’m interested to know why looking at the Choir isn’t the right place…. What more do you know that we don’t? From my understanding many of the report aspects do refer to the choir and its leadership who are part of the senior leadership team. It’s fascinating as I think many aspects that have been reported have been addressed or at least started to be.
DeleteThat’s a fair question 'Deiniol', but I think we need to separate perception from process.
DeleteThe urgent trustee training mentioned in the press was in response to governance weaknesses within the cathedral Chapter, not the Diocesan Board of Finance (DBF). It’s true that DBF oversight may also have failed, especially in authorising spending—but the immediate concerns, and formal complaints, emerged at the cathedral. That’s why the spotlight is there.
As for the legal restrictions:
needing to respect confidentiality or data protection laws isn’t always a sign of mismanagement—it can also be a sign that things are now being taken seriously and handled correctly.
It’s frustrating, I agree, but once lawyers are involved, public comment becomes limited—not because people are hiding wrongdoing, but because doing the right thing legally can look like silence.
We absolutely need transparency, but we also need to respect due process- if lasting reform is the goal.
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DeleteAbsolutely 'Deiniol'.
DeleteYour comment is completely understandable— it is hard to stomach. It feels deeply unjust that the cathedral is left reeling, trust is broken, and yet the person at the centre of it appears to have landed safely elsewhere, without facing public accountability.
Part of the difficulty is that institutions are limited in what they can say publicly about individuals, especially when legal processes or HR matters are involved. That doesn’t mean there’s no action behind the scenes.
That said, the hurt and anger felt by those who witnessed / experienced the damage first-hand are real—and they deserve to be acknowledged, not brushed aside.
Transparency, where possible, matters. And so does ensuring that the systems and culture that allowed this to happen are thoroughly addressed so it can’t happen again. Meaning everyone needs to assist in the repair and culture change at the cathedral.
Many of us at the Cathedral fully support diversity and inclusion — they are essential values we affirm without hesitation. What we reject is the culture of excess and sexual license that has taken hold in recent years. The culture of reckless drinking, promiscuity, and disregard for basic sexual boundaries has deeply harmed our community. It has fractured trust, eroded our shared life, and brought shame to our witness. Those of us who have chosen not to engage in this culture have often been mocked, dismissed as prudish, or patronised as naive. That, too, has caused real pain.
ReplyDeleteWe now need a Dean who has the strength, integrity, and moral clarity to confront this reality and lead meaningful reform. It is therefore alarming to read in the Church Times that the Archbishop is proposing 'informal chats' with potential candidates. Many of us no longer have confidence in his judgment. If he wants to retain any credibility, he must step aside from this appointment process entirely, we'd respect him if he did — and so must +Bardsey. The next Dean must be chosen without their influence.
-PewBangor
For 'Many of us no long have confidence ...' read, 'Almost none of us have confidence....'
DeleteBut a fly in the ointment is the one brushed under the carpet. Technically and legally speaking (admitted by all previous deans) Bangor Cathedral ought as cornerstone to the Bro Deiniol parish and in fact the only church still standing, ought to have a Parochial Church Council or PCC totally independent of its inept Chapter. In any active church, the PCC has clout. It has clout to decide who its next vicar ought to be ... or to recommend to the Bishop the sacking of a duff one. But Bangor, despite its awareness that PCC status ought and should be granted, has steadfastly refused to create it. Oddly, a few years ago, it tried to pull a flanker (for financial gain tied to the quota sent to Cardiff annually) by encouraging all congregants - even day-trippers - to register on its phantom Electoral Roll. Cathedrals don't have Electoral Rolls: Parishes do. Who, I wonder is the current legal Registrar who from his or her annual ££ retainer fees ought to be putting the whole nonsense to right. My vote? PCC and let the PCC have majority voice in the administration, management and function of St Deiniol's.
As for snuggy-sporty-pants Andy of changing rooms repute, picking the next Dean: That's about as laughable as "Britain's Got Talent" and I'm no fan of that either.
Sadly I feel it is time to leave the cathedral. It has all been too much.
ReplyDeleteObviously, I have no time for the Archbishop, he plainly is not up to the job, scripturally disqualified due to his marital status and the circumstances around his divorce, grossly inept and has demonstrated conduct unbecoming of a cleric. However, there seems no will, at least on the surface to deal with this. Maybe, for the good of the Church in Wales, Andy will learn some humility from this and get some sound advisors who are not sycophants. Let's hope and pray so, since he has just over 8 and a half years before he must retire.
ReplyDeleteThe appointment of the Dean of Bangor will be crucial. There are able clerics in Wales who would do a good job. At least three come to mind, all of them Welsh speaking - good godly priests, very intelligent, pastorally astute, with a proven record of delivery and on their first marriages.
My fear is that the best people will not touch it with a barge pole now or that John's superiority complex, avoiding selecting more talented people than him will mean another poor choice. I agree he and +Enlli should withdraw from the process.
Talk about omnishambles!
Whamab
@Whamab
DeleteYou clearly care deeply about Bangor and that kind of concern can be powerful if channelled well.
Given your insights and the names you have in mind, would you consider putting your recommendations in writing to Archbishop Andy and +Enlli?
Even if you have no confidence in their leadership, your input could still influence the outcome—not to aid them personally, but to advocate for Bangor and ensure the appointment process is as informed as possible.
Strong, principled voices are most effective when they offer solutions as well as critique.
Naming credible, Welsh speaking, pastoral, godly candidates and articulating why they’d bring strength to the role could be a real service to the wider Church—even if the system isn’t perfect right now.
It's a small act, but could help the Cathedral.
Old Bill.
DeleteSadly all good advise regarding the impending appointment of a new Dean for Bangor, but I hold out little hope.
Announcement at the cathedral today was that the Post is now advertised on the website with closing date of June 6th. But it goes on to read that 'anyone who knows anyone who might be interested' should be encouraged to write in !!!
Eh? Any old Joe Soap can ask his chum Tom Dick or Harry 'Are you interested mate? Good living, nice house, fab pension ... better than hanging around the JobCentre'. Surely this is not the way to find candidates; unless as with the appointment of Kathy Jones and Sion ap Rhys the whole thing is a stitch-up and they just need to draw up a list of names to justify already having picked a name.
'Anyone who's interested ....' I might suggest it to Rev. Clifford Williams !!!!
The tree eater in St. Asaph could be thinking of putting the name of the antiques-dealing Gerwhine the golf caddie into the hat, with his extensive experience in Llandaff to call upon.
DeleteDoes the Bangor Deanery benefit from an Aga cooker yet?
@Peacemaker thank you for your concilatory contributions to this thread, you may have guessed that I am angry at Andy John not just for allowing this but contribution to it. It is so disgraceful and shameful that it brings utter disrepute to the church. I am no longer a priest in the Church in Wales, having left for the Church of England last year so why should I care? Wales is so dear to me and its Anglican Church that offered me the right hand of fellowship some years ago now.
DeleteThis egregious act of self-harm needs a process of accountability to take place, Andy must be forgiven, and I need to forgive him, because this hurts even though I was never in the Diocese of Bangor.
The priests I referred to are well known in the province. Priests with over ten years in priest's orders, who have grown churches and contributed to provincial structures and are fluent Welsh speakers. I won't name them, it is a small pond, and it's obvious to me who I'd shortlist. If you widened it to Welsh learners, you'd get a dozen or more excellent priests.
Like I said I fear none of them will want to touch it. Deep and public repentance is needed in the first instance, a commitment to basic Christian standards of holiness and absolute transparency. I'm not sure the Church in Wales understands the damage this has caused.
Whamab
I hear Justin Welby is looking for a job.
ReplyDeleteIt’s understandable that people feel disillusioned, especially given recent events. Trust in process takes a knock when past appointments haven’t gone well or haven’t felt transparent.
ReplyDeleteThat said, encouraging people to suggest potential candidates isn’t the same as throwing the doors open to “any old Joe Soap” – it's a way of widening the net and not missing gifted individuals who might not otherwise consider applying. Good clergy aren’t always looking for promotion, and a tap on the shoulder from someone who sees their potential can make all the difference.
Surely what we want now is a process that is prayerful, open, and discerning – not driven by cliques or cynicism. And that means contributing helpfully: if someone knows a godly, Welsh-speaking, pastorally wise priest with integrity and vision, why wouldn’t we want their name in the mix?
We can’t change the past, but we can influence the future by raising the bar through encouragement, not just critique.
I notice that the job description states, "Following an episcopal visitation, the Cathedral is entering a new season. As Dean, you will work with Chapter to implement the visitation recommendations and embed a culture of transparency and accountability". That, to me as a total outsider, sounds hopefu.
ReplyDeletePS One notes that candidates must be "fluent in written and spoken Welsh and keen to embrace our bilingual identity". So it seems unnecessary to have written an English recruitment pack as well as a Welsh one!
ReplyDeleteIf everything is so bad at this cathedral why is everyone still there, has no one been disciplined for appauling behaviour?
ReplyDeleteIt is a fair question, Cymro. Why hasn’t anyone been disciplined? Maybe the answer lies in the fact that any disciplinary action would have put the Cathedral under the spotlight of scrutiny and to have done so would have raised further questions of the diocesan hierarchy, which is exactly what has now happened.
ReplyDeleteI don’t think the Archbishop expected this level of scrutiny when he first initiated a visitation. Another example of his lack of abilities maybe? Now all he can do is insist that both reports are kept under wraps, for fear of the criticism they make of him (as they surely must include) place him under even more pressure.
Peacemaker, I admire your desire to be gracious but maybe you haven’t been in Bangor for long. For if you had you would know that Andy John has a history of misusing his episcopal power. Nation.Cymru has already uncovered the way Dean Sue Jones was unjustly dealt with but there are many other examples of John ‘suspending’ clergy and lay people only to have to back down. Cynical we may be, but it is cynicism based on experience.
A commentator above asks who made the initial complaint about Evans. I am reliably that it was the then Director of Ordinands, David Morris. He took his complaint to the Archbishop. Within a month, it was announced that Morris was to be the new Assistant Bishop of Bangor. I can only speculate that John had become tired of protecting Evans (whose star shone brightly ever since his appointment as Diocesan Secretary) and had found someone who could the dirty work of removing Evans on his behalf.
There are powerful people who want us to ‘move on’ in Bangor. They should be resisted.
Resistance
Hasn’t +Bardsey been alleged to have been a beneficiary of the questionable largesse doled out through the obscenely lavish boys’ club trips to Durham and Rome? If he is a beneficiary, and the truth of the motivation behind the complaint lies in a tiff on one of those trips, he is as culpable as the rest, in my view, and the complaint is no better than the Archbishop’s pathetic attempt to recast himself as the good guy coming to the rescue by commissioning the visitation.
DeleteI think peacemaker is absolutely right to keep reminding us that liability does not rest just with the Archbishop. In my view, the only way Bangor stands an earthly chance of moving on from this with any integrity is if all those who can be proved to bear any responsibility for the current state of affairs and the events leading up to them face public accountability for their actions or inaction. Depending on the extent and seriousness of each person’s part in it all, the consequences they would face would be different. For the Archbishop, they would still remain very serious, as he faces multiple lines of liability across most if not all of the many strands of disgraceful and quite possibly illegal conduct involved. The former Sub-Dean should also absolutely not be able to step away unscathed into a new, lucrative, appointment either.
Retribution? No, though I can see why some may think that. Accountability, contrition and demonstrated commitment to turning one’s life round for the better? Absolutely - essential precursors to Christian forgiveness.
@ Resistance
DeleteI can confirm your belief that it was +David Morris who having arrived back at Bangor as a cathedral Canon had the bollox, conviction and courage to face-to-face confront the coward Andrew John with what already +Andy knew and threw down the gauntlet; something that umpteen of the senior clergy of the diocese should have done years before.
But I dispute that his reward was to be elevated to become Assistant Bishop. More probable - in fact almost certainly - Andrew had come to realise that his gormless face and unpopularity was unwelcome in both the cathedral and in the wider diocese. And he'd made another duff choice in gifting Bangor Archdeaconry to another inadequate and unfriendly crony.
Yes, +David is gay but he doesn't flaunt it and it saddens me that some who don't know him or recognise how popular he is at Bangor, chastise him for that.
As the bravest of the lot, and the snr. priest most respected by its congregation, +David must surely be part of the selection panel. He'd actually be better employed as Dean of Bangor than Bishop of Bardsey; should he desert that unpopulated 'Diocese', there'd be a vacant See there ....one that Andrew John could steer his rat-jumping and sinking boat to and live our his years in penance with the herring gulls. That sort of retirement befell Napoleon ... another little wannabe dictator.
It's all very well advertising for a new Dean, and good luck to anyone who wants to apply for that poisoned chalice. It's also curious to note that the post of Archbishop's Chaplain is now being readvertised for a third time. In spite of the attractive salary, it seems nobody's willing to do that either. How many hints does one Archbishop need?
ReplyDeleteThis is not the first time Morris has done this @resistance. He is often complicit in wrong doing and when he realises they're about to be caught, he turns and throws his accomplices under the bus.
ReplyDeleteThe plastic Dean, the silenced archdeacon, the closet chaplain/wrexham vicar, and Bardsey all need to pay that £20k back for their jolly boys outing. It's the least they can all do.
Disgruntled exile
It’s clear that people feel wounded, frustrated, and disillusioned. That pain should not be dismissed, and past mistakes or poor handling do need honest reckoning.
ReplyDeleteBut I want to suggest that if we genuinely care about the future of Bangor and the Church in Wales, we have to move from suspicion and accusation toward action and reform.
That includes:
• Encouraging good, principled people to apply for the Dean role rather than assuming it’s “a stitch-up” or calling it “a poisoned chalice.” The church needs wise and brave leadership – if we don’t raise up those voices, we risk only deepening the vacuum.
• Recognising complexity. Yes, mistakes were made – potentially serious ones. But there are also legal and safeguarding frameworks now in play, which mean not everything can be shared publicly (frustrating though that may be).
• Avoiding speculation about motives. We don’t know the full stories behind people’s appointments or departures. Making assumptions may feel satisfying in the moment, but it risks deepening division and deterring good people from stepping up.
• On the chaplain’s role being re-advertised – that can happen simply because no one quite met the criteria or the chemistry wasn’t right, not necessarily because no one applied. It's a diverse role and finding the right person can take a few rounds. It's not necessarily a bad sign, sometimes it’s just discernment.
We need transparency, yes – but also wisdom, patience, and a shared commitment to renewal rather than just resistance.
Let’s hold leaders accountable, absolutely – but let’s also be the kind of people who build, not just critique.
I have on good authority no one applied for the chaplain role (twice).
ReplyDeleteBut it is genuinely difficult to get people to locate to North West Wales.
But I agree with peacemaker, we must pretend that nothing has happened and keep smiling.
Am I alone in suspecting that the new boy on the AB site, 'Peacemaker' is an insider who is either the C-in-W apologist PR person or a close associate of Plonker-John looking for back-favours in return??? Peacemaker's remarks are too full of sugar-and-jam for my liking. If true, then at last a subject matter on AB has ruffled some feathers. Good.
ReplyDeleteA better name for "Peacemaker" would be Pisstaker.
DeleteAs far as I'm concerned the entire nest of vipers needs clearing out in its entirety, the Chapter and the chocolate teapot.
I think someone spotted peacemaker as +Bardsey before and they didn't deny it. It is certainly the rhetoric of Morris. However, I no longer do care about the CinW nor Bangor cathedral. The sooner the tables of the den of iniquity are upturned and that pantomime show the cathedral calls "worship" is put a stop to the better.
ReplyDeleteI have been long convinced God does not want the CinW.
Disgruntled exile
I am just someone who cares deeply about the Church in Wales, and particularly Bangor.
ReplyDeleteI know frustrations run high, and there are important questions to be asked. But I also believe in the power of fair-mindedness and shared responsibility. Criticism is needed at times, but so too is constructive dialogue.
My aim is not to sugarcoat, but to seek a better way forward than blame alone can offer. If my tone comes across as gentle, it’s simply because we need more bridge-building voices in the 'room', else this forum is just another echo chamber.
While some criticisms on this forum highlight significant concerns, the prevalence of personal attacks, derogatory nicknames, hyperbolic statements and unverified inflammatory claims hinders constructive dialogue.
Engaging in respectful and evidence-based discussions could foster a more productive environment for addressing the issues at hand, which is the common motivation we share.
@Peacemaker - I must admonish you for your lack of understanding of basic psychology: a line cannot simply be drawn under abuse or people's trauma. Like all serious wounds it must be cleaned and carefully sutured, not left to fester under a bandage.
DeleteIt's also pretty weak tea to suggest reports cannot be realised due to GDPR and confidentiality - there should be no personally identifiable information beyond names in the report that would be subject to GDPR, and I don't think even the denizens of this benighted forum would seriously expect a full report to be released without appropriate and proportionate redactions to protect the confidentiality of those who have made disclosures.
If you look out from your tower, across the border you will see the barren wasteland of the CofE where they've had to learn these lessons the hard way. If only the CinW could learn from our own mistakes, let alone theirs.
Also, if you are indeed a peacemaker, you will know that a conflict cannot be ended simply by showing up and telling people to stop fighting: a detailed and open process of reconciliation and restitution is required, unless one side has the wherewithal to conquer the other entirely.
I agree that dialogue should be respectful, but the powers have shown so little respect for the rest of us so far that it really behoves them to make the first steps in that direction with a bit of openness and honesty.
Scarlet
Thank you, Scarlet, for your considered reply. I absolutely agree with you that trauma must be taken seriously and not hastily covered over. My concern is not to downplay wounds, but to encourage a form of conversation that builds rather than deepens division.
DeleteYou're right that peace without justice isn’t peace. But justice also needs due process and discernment—not just assumptions, anger, or punishment without clarity. Reports should be redacted and appropriately shared where possible, and I agree that transparency is essential. However, there are legal and pastoral complexities in how that’s done.
I’m not here to defend wrongdoing or deny hurt. I’m here to suggest that real change comes when people speak with both conviction and charity. We can call for accountability without destroying trust further. That’s what I mean by peacemaking—not silence, but integrity and healing.
I may be new to the conversation, but not to pain or hope. I offer this voice not as an “insider,” but as someone who wants to see the Church move forward rightly—with honesty, wisdom, and grace.
I respect that not everyone will agree with my tone or approach, but it's offered in good faith.
The issue is that the authorities whose case you are touting, deliberately or not, consistently refuse to understand the problem. I'm pleased that you seem to, and I hope you are an insider so that you can persuade these powers to show the actions of transparency, conviction, clarity, integrity and healing you mention.
DeleteI think a lot of the hostility you, and they, face here and elsewhere is born from the fact that these words are all too frequent in the statements of those whose actions show time and time again that they not only have no intention of acting in accordance with them, but are in fact incapable of personal growth and change.
Scarlet
Thank you Scarlet. I understand the deep hurt and disillusionment many here feel and not for a moment suggest that it should be ignored, dismissed, or simply "gotten over." The wounds are real. As was said earlier, trauma can’t be bandaged over without proper care. The danger I see is that justified anger, when left undirected, becomes corrosive, not healing. As St Paul cautions in Ephesians 4:26, “In your anger do not sin.” Righteous anger has a place but if it’s not channeled toward something meaningful, it risks becoming its own form of harm.
DeleteThat’s why I want to ask, sincerely, what concrete actions would help rebuild trust for the people in this forum? Is it the release (with appropriate redactions) of the full reports? Public disciplinary outcomes? Leadership changes? Or a different process of reconciliation?
It’s one thing to name what’s gone wrong (and many things raised here are serious) but unless we can also describe what would help, what would show humility, integrity, and healing, then we're left only with protest and pain.
I ask not to defend poor decisions or opaque processes, far from it, but to urge us not to stop at critique. If we are serious about accountability and renewal, we need to name what that would look like, even imperfectly.
Peace isn’t passivity. It’s choosing to pursue a better way, together.
I have many times, in many more sensible and elevated places than this, presented my view of what is required to rebuild trust not only locally to Bangor but more generally in the CinW, only to be met with pretended confusion or outright derision.
DeleteSadly, one suspects that nothing short of a full auto-da-fé with the public immolations of all homosexuals, women, socialists, and anyone under 40 would appease this blog's usual commentators. If only the CinW would provide some sort of appropriate forum in which these conversations could actually be had, rather than its standard modus operandi of huis clos decision-making paired with an absolute minimum of public communication!
Scarlet
P.S In all seriousness, I'm happy to send you a list separately if you do actually want to know what I think would be required to rebuild trust.
What's needed to rebuild trust @Scarlet? Half a pound of SEMTEX-H would be a good start!!!!
DeleteWell let me take up your offer, Peacemaker, and list a few things that need to be done to move the situation towards healing and rebuilding.
DeleteFirstly, far more details of what has gone wrong at Bangor need to be made public. This could be done in several ways - a full but redacted publishing of both reports. Who to trust with what should be redacted? Maybe we could start with the authors themselves. Another possibility is that those sections which detail what went wrong are published only. There are three who have failed it would appear - the Archbishop, the Chapter and the former sub dean. Now I can envision Evans taking legal action, so care is needed in publishing his failures, but the other two need to be publicly accountable.
Secondly, the current process of healing/restoration needs to be overseen by a senior person (probably a cleric) outside of the diocese if not outside the province. Having a current member of the Chapter - the Archdeacon of Bangor - in this role merely adds to the appearance of a cover up.
Thirdly, a new dean must come from outside Bangor Diocese. Personally I would be willing to have someone from outside Wales in the role - yes even at the expense of a lack of Welsh language skills. But at the very minimum, appointing someone who is not currently involved in any way in this mess is essential.
Fourthly (and finally for now), the rather thorny issue of resignations. Is it within John’s emotional ability to accept the level of humility it will take from him to accept his failures in public? I don’t think it is but am willing to give him a chance. Without that humility, he will have to go. As for the Chapter, each member needs to consider their own failures and decide whether they have ability to carry on.
Resistance
Thank you ‘Resistance’ for sharing these suggestions so clearly and with a genuine desire to see movement toward healing. It's rare and refreshing to see a contribution in this forum that seeks to build rather than simply burn down. I hear the frustration beneath your words, which many share.
DeleteIf I may respond to each point with that same spirit of constructive care:
1. Publishing redacted reports:
There is a strong case for greater transparency, and I agree that trust cannot be rebuilt without honesty and clarity about what went wrong. The challenge lies in balancing transparency with the duty to protect those involved, especially where sensitive information or legal risk exist as you rightly mentioned (it is possible that there may be more than those you mention, who need to reflect on their action/ inaction). Perhaps a thematic summary of failures and lessons learned, could be a step toward accountability without causing further harm?
2. Oversight of healing by someone external:
This is a wise suggestion. Healing processes are rarely trusted when led by those too close to the situation. An external facilitator, someone with spiritual depth and pastoral sensitivity could bring the impartiality and courage needed to listen well and guide forward. It could be argued however that the Archdeacon of Bangor is sufficiently distanced from the situation and has the ability to listen well, is trusted and will speak up for others. I’m not inviting criticism here, simply saying others think he’s well placed.
3. Appointing a new Dean from outside Bangor / even Wales:
Bringing in someone fresh, with no prior involvement, makes good sense and would be an important step in resetting relationships and expectations. At the same time, I know how deeply people care about the language and culture of Wales, meaning losing this element will only bring more criticism. My hope is for a candidate who can honour both the need for healing and the need for rootedness as neither should be compromised.
4. Resignations and humility from leadership:
This is perhaps the hardest and most delicate area. We long to see genuine humility and responsibility, not because we want to shame others, but because it is such a powerful step in restoring faith. I can’t speak for individuals’ capacity for this, but I do know that humility shown from a place of internal conviction is far more fruitful than that demanded by external pressure. If there is to be movement here, it will have to be invited, not coerced.
Thank you for offering these reflections in a spirit of seriousness and hope. It’s easy to criticise; much harder to offer ideas and stay committed to the possibility of healing. I do believe the Church is at its best when it listens deeply and responds with grace. May that spirit continue, here and elsewhere.
Thanks for your response.
Delete1.I like the idea of a thematic summary, though there can no getting away from some serious failings which need direct accountability.
2. I believe we have gone too far - over too many incidents, over too long a time - for internal leadership to be trusted. Asking people to place their trust in those whose jobs depend on ABW as Bishop of Bangor will be a step too far for many. This is true for laity and clergy, many of whom while not prepared to speak openly, are deeply critical and suspicious of their Bishop. Should a handful of these take a stand, the landscape would change very quickly. This is a precarious time for ABW and resistance to showing humility and contrition and a desire to ‘tough it out’ (which is the line at the moment as far as I can see) could well push people to take a different public stance.
3. I’m a Welsh speaker myself (first language) but it seems the crisis is so deep, some outside of the box thinking is required. I take your point though but I’m sure you’d agree with me that a proven leader with an independent mind and management skills are crucial for the role.
4. So far humility and taking responsibility (apart from a vague and generic apology) has been absent. You rightly refer to ‘internal conviction’ but where is it in either the ABW or the Chapter?
One more point if I may. You have referred many times to the hurt feelings and offence caused by the situation. A proper apology would work wonders. But causing offence isn’t the biggest problem here. Rather it is how power has been exercised and how some were too weak to challenge it. Until we can see accountability on this score, very little can change.
I sincerely hope and pray that Cathedral gets a godly, talented, hard working Dean that promotes the pure gospel of Jesus in the Anglican tradition in both Welsh and English. He/she will need cast-iron assurances around governance and oversight by ++Andrew and +David. I also pray for mercy and justice in unravelling all that has gone on. These are difficult paths to navigate, I do not envy the Bench or the RB in dealing with this mess. The frustration will always be that this was totally avoidable.
DeleteWhamab
Sadly I hope the Cathedral does not get a godly, talented, hard working new Dean, at least not yet. I hope the post proves impossible to fill. That actually upsets me to write, because I think the people in the pews there have been through enough and deserve the very best there is. But there is absolutely no point at all putting a capable person in as Dean until the Diocesan leadership is sorted out, as everything they try to do will be blocked, undermined and belittled. Then, quite possibly they’ll find themselves on the wrong end of disciplinary or legal action that will inevitably be botched, with their reputation trashed by petty, vindictive, people who lack their integrity and competence.
DeleteIn my view, the current Episcopal leadership (both of them) are tainted way too much by the whiff of scandal to hold any credibility. I hear the comments that +Bardsey is liked by some in the Diocese, but nevertheless and notwithstanding the complaint he is said to have made about the former Sub Dean, if he was a beneficiary of any of it, he is implicated.
In my view, just as the people of the Cathedral have been through enough, so have the rank and file clergy and people of the Diocese more widely - those who just try to get on with serving faithfully wherever they are, and keep being ignored and ridiculed by the powers that be. Time to start again and rebuild with fresh faces who are not implicated in it all. Cathedral and Diocese.
Who should be got rid of from the Cathedral 'Fr D'?
DeleteAnyone who benefited personally from any money that has been misspent; any cleric whose behaviour would, if subject to the balance of probabilities standard of proof used in disciplinary cases, stand a reasonable prospect of being found as unbecoming of a clerk in holy orders (in my view this should be tested by bringing formal disciplinary charges); and any lay office holder whose conduct could, if subject to HR processes, be reasonably found to be gross misconduct and/or conduct likely to bring the Cathedral into disrepute (whether employed or volunteer - there should be policies in place for both that set such things out).
Delete100% agree Fr Duddleswell. Unless there is accountability this festering sore cannot heal.
DeleteWhamab
🤣🤣🤣 peacemaker, are you sure you're on the right blog?
ReplyDeleteDisgruntled exile
But so far, Peacemaker, there hasn’t been an ‘honest reckoning’ only a vague and generic apology. We have yet to see the humility that should lie at the heart of Christian leadership. ‘Lessons will be learned’ they say but what are those lessons and what are the actual failures which teach those lessons?
ReplyDeleteResistance
Reminder: Anonymous comments intended for publication must include a pseudonym.
ReplyDeleteAB I posted without my pseudonym earlier by mistake. Any chance it coukd be added? Resistance
ReplyDeleteSee Anonymous19 May 2025 at 16:55 above.
DeleteI've followed the track of all 70+ bloggers and of course, AB's previous on topic.
ReplyDeleteRather than go round in circles, isn't it perhaps time we each - every one of us - invest a 1st or 2nd class stamp and write to the Archbishop our views that his cowardism holds no water. Real names and not our AB anonymous taggings. Write to him personally.
Then, having waited a week or so for a response while ++John ponders our letters, we then all return to this website to compare how he replied to us. He might actually have to capitulate to the weight of petition he receives. He might not.
But if fellow AB correspondents co-join in the idea, then copy your letter to the chap at Nation Cymru who seems to have an eye on the ball.
If our archbishop doesn't have the courtesy to reply to individual letters then more added to reason for his early demise/exit. He's a man in denial. A man in hiding.
Let us turn now, if we may, to a most glittering affair—an event cloaked not only in sumptuous clerical robes but also, it would seem, in mystery and no small measure of controversy: Sion’s now-infamous post-ordination diaconal celebration in Knightsbridge. A soirée, we are told, of considerable splendour. In attendance? No less than the Archbishop himself, his chaplain, and Bishop David Morris, not to mention a veritable roll call of the great and good from the Diocese of Bangor and well beyond its misty ecclesiastical borders.
ReplyDeleteAnd the cost of this ecclesiastical gala? The eye-watering sum whispered in pews and printed in posts: £52,000. A figure that feels all the more audacious when spoken aloud at the close of Christian Aid Week.
This number, we should note, has not been conjured from the incense-scented air of Bangor Cathedral. It has been repeatedly cited—by the likes of Lister Tongue and John Pocket on Thinking Anglicans—and, most notably, has never been denied or corrected by those who might reasonably be expected to set the record straight.
So the questions must now be asked:
1. From whence came this £52,000—and is the figure remotely accurate?
2. Were the coffers of the diocese—public or charitable—ever drawn upon to fund this ecclesiastical extravaganza?
3. And did those in attendance—these dignitaries and mitred guests—pay their own way? Or were they graciously spared the inconvenience—and if so, at whose expense?
Perhaps we are simply dealing with rumour and hearsay when it comes to this event, and yet rumour flourishes in the shadows where transparency is absent. Are we witnessing here the uncomfortable image of a Church feasting in Knightsbridge, or is this simply a rumour that can easily be put to bed?
Dyfrig
Wasn't the then Assistant Bishop of Bangor, now the Bishop of Llandaff, also present at that glitzy party? There are some who have suggested that she signed off the finances for that party.
DeleteBackwoodsman
That's precisely the clarification needed. There are others who suggest that the finances were not signed off by anybody, and still others that insist the party was entirely privately funded.
DeleteDyfrig
When you hear of rumours and events taking place like this, it's as if they have all been on a mass suicide mission for years, intent on bringing down the whole institution with them. They’ve been on a prolonged, collective self-destructive course for some years. It's nothing short of reckless.
DeleteIrresponsible
Sounds like a feast of the anti-kingdom.
DeleteChristian
Don't let specifics cloud your view of the big picture that has been poor governance over an extended period.
ReplyDelete(Would like to point out that cheesemaker could be interpreted as maker of all dairy products)
Peacemaker, you didn't answer my earlier question. What path should I have followed?
ReplyDeleteDisgruntled exile
The problem here is to do with headship. If Jesus Christ is the Head, then every other part of the Body works properly. See St. Paul's epistle to the Ephesians (Ch.4 v.16). If the head is holy, then the whole body is holy. If you have godly bishops in God's Church, then you will have godly pastors and congregations. If a school has a good Head, then it becomes a happy and thriving place. If you have bad or corrupt leaders, then thd corruption works down into all the members. I am always moved by the commission in the ordinal when a priest is ordained, 'Keep the Good Shepherd always before you as the pattern of your calling. Study his teaching and meditate upon it, that you may encourage His people in the way of holiness.' Jesus tells us that He is the Good Shepherd and compares good shepherds with hirelings who do not care for the sheep, and flee when trouble comes. We must also bear in mind that a fish first rots from the head!
ReplyDeleteThe chocolate teapot has all the intelligence of a fish too.
DeleteBewildered
I find that insulting to fish.
ReplyDeleteQuite so, apologies to fish 🐠.
DeleteBewildered
Well he's certainly not a Monk Fish !!!
DeleteClown fish 🐠
DeleteIf not Satan with whom he's surely familiar, who would be the Fish Frier.
DeleteThe Church Times reports on the origin of the whistleblowing disclosure submitted to the Charity Commission, detailing a number of financial and administrative irregularities at Bangor. Central to the concerns raised in a 4,000-word email is the issue of overseas travel undertaken between November 2022 and August 2023. The whistleblower highlights three trips abroad, including one involving the cathedral choir’s visit to Dublin. According to the report, the total cost of these trips is estimated at approximately £20,000, all of which was funded by the Diocese, despite the fact that the travel appears to have primarily benefited cathedral staff and colleagues. The Chapter has since agreed to reimburse the Diocese for these irregular expenses. The critical tone and external perspective of the whistleblowing disclosure would suggest that the whistleblower was likely not among the travellers?
ReplyDeleteIrresponsible
Isn't there more than enough to bring John before a tribunal? Disrepute, gross inefficiency, financial irregularity, conduct unbecoming, let alone preaching doctrine incompatible with the Church in Wales.
ReplyDeleteEvans too, is subject still to the tribunal since he presumably has pension benefits. Come on, if the tribunal means anything then these two need to answer?
Whamab
I'd like a full, unvarnished confession from every single person who took part in these irregularly funded jaunts. Time to fess up, cough up, and pay back every penny to the Diocese —no exceptions, especially from those who somehow found justification for going on not one, not two, but all three trips. Evans paid the bills, but others quaffed the drinks and filled their stomachs.
DeleteIrresponsible
There most certainly is. Why charges haven’t been brought pursuant to the disciplinary rules is staggering.
DeleteThere are, if there’s any credibility to the reported actions, inaction and allegations of knowingly benefitting personally from the proceeds of alleged financial impropriety involving others, also grounds for raising tribunal charges against other clerics involved in this sorry tale. That’s before we get to possible charges rooted in competence and capability against those who did not personally benefit, and whose personal behaviours do not cross professional boundaries, but whose governance roles included monitoring and overseeing those aspects of the life of the Cathedral and/or Diocese in which serious misconduct is found to have occurred.
Then, as Old Bill has helpfully started to trace below, we get to potential criminal charges and those pursuant to regulatory discipline from the Charity Commission. Again, if what’s being alleged has any credibility to it (note I don’t say truth as that would remain to be proved), there would certainly be grounds for investigations by the police and by the Charity Commission. Whether those would lead to charges would depend on the outcome of the investigations, but there seems to be plenty to initiate investigations.
The crucial question is who is interested/brave enough to coordinate the complaints. From what I know of the CiW and complaints against authority figures generally, it would likely be both an uphill struggle and a path beset by vindictive consequences.
Which is why, Fr., I suggest referral to Police. They are under no such constraints and nor do they concern themselves with machinations. Even if inquiries don't eventually meet Crown Prosecution Service benchmarks, then at least all aspects of this sordid affair will have been independently investigated and with the openness of any police enquiry its unlikely that those involved will have no other option than to at least suspend themselves from duty in interim if not simply 'retire on grounds of ill health' (resignation is not their style).
Delete@Whamab and others
ReplyDeleteMore particularly - and please read nothing into my tagging as 'Old Bill' - there is sufficient known to involve the Police. There is sufficient known of the various financial misdoings to come under any of a number of sections of what is generally known as the Theft Act 1968 with later revisions. Misappropriation of funds; attempt to defraud (the wrongful use of one ring-fenced account for spending for another), conspiracy to defraud and even theft actual (the fact that sums of money were paid back from the Cathedral accounts to Diocesan accounts is quite besides the point. As with 'Conspiracy to defraud' rhe intention at the time was to deprive one account or fund whether or not monies were returned once the gaff was blown. The intention to theft is a criminal offence). There are umpteen more under the Act without awaiting Charity Commission outcomes or the resignations of those 'in the know'.
At the very least, if official complaint was made to North Wales Police, they would be compelled to investigate it and with the sums of money reportedly involved, to investigate at Headquarters CID level. They will thus formally interview all involved irrespective of high or low clergy office. All in the know. All in the conspiracy or with knowledge of events. As said, there need not be proof that anyone actually lost money (if refunds have been made) but simply that there was an intention to defraud or even steal. False accounting also comes under the Act as so often proved by the experts, the City of London Police Fraud Department who have UK-wide remit and reference and who might, depending on the £££ level of monies at risk, become involved. They probably would actually, because local police might not have dealt before with cathedrals, bishops, and the spiders' webs of accounts like the Vatican Bank.
All it takes is for some brave person with better insight than I to lay a complaint and this whole nonsense then takes on a higher level ... and may well speed up the resignation of those, like Andrew John and the Bangor Chapter (and Rhys Jones in his new Cambridge cloisters. Each, under police investigation, would certainly have to suspend themselves from duties even in Cambridge) as the negative publicity impact will be well beyond the AB readership. It's just a thought. Indeed, as Bangor has a BBC News reporter in its lay choir stalls, so to is there a Criminal court judge. How embarrassing if Police were eventually called in. I can actually foresee that this might yet happen if earlier AB blogs are even close to accurate .... the unauthorised use of funds for ap-Rhys's lavish party, the free-bee trips abroad, unauthorised movements of money. 'ullo, hullo, hullo. This sniffs of CRIME said PC Plod.
Old Bill (but never a copper).
There have been, I feel, numerous valuable and sensible contributions to the discussion here on the Bangor debacle. Please allow me, for once, to contribute to them. As some may know, I have been trying to ensure that the story of the Bangor debacle gets the attention I feel it merits, so that those of us who care so deeply about the CinW get full and transparent answers; but silence appears to remain the order of the day. I, therefore, offer this suggestion as a possible way of attempting to obtain those answers.
ReplyDeleteI have worshipped in the Church in Wales since I joined the choir of my local church in 1956 at the age of four. Over the years, I have seen various crises befall the church, but none as serious as the current one, centred, though not solely, on the Diocese of Banger and its cathedral.
Because of my general interest in church matters, I would like to hope that I am at least an ‘interested’ Anglican – interested in what is going on. What has become clear to me, over some years now, is, first, that the constitution of the Church in Wales is not fit for purpose and needs urgent and complete revision, and, secondly, that the position of bishops within the CinW is far too powerful and unchallengeable. There appears very little, if any, means of removing them from office, except through the thoroughly impractical and so far never used CinW ‘Supreme Court’ process,. I gather, from someone who knows far better than me, that this involves the Archbishops of Canterbury, York, Armagh and the Primus of the Scottish Episcopal Church.
I am given to understand, however, that if a letter (or letters) of concern be submitted about action, behaviour, management etc thought to have possibly sullied the name of the CinW and brought disrepute, there is some provision – whether constitutional or just practical I know not – for the matter to be considered by a tribunal of the Church in Wales. If, as in the current case, a significant amount of criticism has been focussed on the archbishop, any letter(s) would need to be submitted to the senior bishop next in precedence, currently, of course, the Bishop of St Asaph.
I also understand that no such formal letter of concern or complaint has thus far been submitted. The question I pose is whether the time has come for any number of us, deeply concerned about what we have learned, particularly over the past two weeks or so, to draft our own letters and submit them individually. Sadly, I see no other way of ensuring that this crisis is transparently, fully, effectively and honestly resolved, and the CinW members – effectively both the shareholders and customers of the CinW to use a commercial comparison – properly informed. This would hopefully resolve this sorry state of affairs..
Reply
My comment, a moment ago, should end with my name - John Pockett.
ReplyDeleteI fear you're wasting your time and effort, John.
DeleteBully boy --Bazza, Shirley, Caiaphas, the chocolate teapot, all the same dismal dross.
There's simply too many sycophantic fools on the GB and the processes labyrinthine to depose them.
Stop your giving then just enjoy your retirement.
The crooked way of doing business in the Cult in Wales has been prevalant for decades, usually highlighted in Llandaff, but His --Darkness was usually found to be skulking at the bottom of it too
DeleteThe dreadful manner in which Clifford Williams was mistreated, the fiddled Organ appeal, Peggy "the taxman will never know" Pilate, Gerwhine Capon with his poison pen letters to elderly widowed "subversives", antiques dealing and post-evensong pink gin soirées for his chosen few (not forgetting the missing £70k and the Aga Saga) followed by slippery Dick the sherry. Then there was Caiaphas with her false allegations and the jolly to Spain for the year of pilgrimage - what a farce that proved to be!
The only way you're going to get rid of the chocolate teapot will be for someone whistleblowing unredacted copies of the two reports to the public domain.
It's the details of the alleged sexual promiscuity that you need to finish him off.
Lots of stories from that jolly in Spain involving excessive drinking. The names won’t surprise.
DeleteIago
Might I refer readers to 'Old Bill's suggestion some comments ago. I share the view that this nonsense now only has one direction if the truth is to be outed and a proper investigation rather than 'Visitation' report, a GB or RB enquiry is launched. And that's the Police. One formal complaint is recorded with an Incident Number attached to it (not the same as a Crime Number) the Police are obliged to investigate and they do so thoroughly with no-holes-barred.
ReplyDeleteThe woolly expectation of some is that the Charities Commission might investigate and its a nice thought. But they demonstrated their lack of true teeth in matter of the £1.4 million of financial misappropriations concerning the Captain Tom Moore funds and the matter of his daughter and fund trustee, Hannah Ingram-Moore.
My view is that there ought to be no further delay. 'Old Bill' or more accurately, North Wales Police Fraud Department (who deal with financial crime reports) ought to be called in a.s.a.p. While their 'inquiries' progress, we then ought to refrain from commenting further.
Cherish the thought. Bangor Cathedral enveloped in 'Police - Crime - Do Not Cross' blue and white tape and the Archbishop and Sion's dirty linen (along with the financial accounts) being sealed into 'Evidence Bags' by Scenes of Crime officers!!! Oh, the thought thrills me. Long overdue.
DeleteIt is said that the Bp of Bangor has been appointed to the Crown Nominations Committee charged with the selection of the next Abp of Canterbury.
ReplyDeleteLlechryd. This is incorrect. It is the Bishop of Llandaff who has been appointed to CNC.
DeleteI must have misheard. I expect she will push for the much discussed part-Persian lady bishop. This would not go down well with the significant number of traditionalist provinces in the wider Anglican communion.
DeleteIn either case, God help us.
DeleteTyphoid Mary is no more help than the chocolate teapot.
Bewildered
Phew. ++John will be so relieved that he's not invited to the Nominations Committee. He wouldn't be allowed to vote for himself. Now he has his minion, Stallard, who can cast a vote for him. Proxy vote - or should that be Pixie.
ReplyDeleteIsn't Stallard implicated in the largesse of Evan's 52k deaconing party? Could be a blunder by the CNC here. Just saying....
ReplyDeleteWhamab
It has been said before but in comparison to Darth --Insidious and Caiaphas, typhoid Mary has managed to maintain a remarkably low profile.
DeleteThis alleged lavish spending evokes the image of vultures picking off a rotten carcass.
ReplyDeleteDafydd y Garreg Hir
Jocularity and blog-banter aside, surely there's a more serious question to be asked here.
ReplyDeleteWould, for instance, a relatively inexperienced, questionably appointed, not of particularly high learning in his or her field of Law - a mediocre District Judge in some provincial Court Circuit without significance or note - be appointed to the Panel advising the Prime Minister and upwards, the Monarch - on Nomination and Appointment of the next Master of the Rolls or Lord Chief Justice. The answer of course is NO! Under no circumstance.
Equally, would some army Lieutenant Colonel of an average Regimental career sit on the Defence Council General Staff panel to nominate and appoint the Chief of Defence Staff or Admiral of the Fleet? Most certainly not.
So why is the less than senior and less than intellectual Mary Stallard appointed to the CNC to recommend the next Archbishop of Canterbury. Is it that the Civil Service thought that perhaps unimportant little old Wales should have a voice, but there was no other Bishop in the province to short-straw as all others had disqualified themselves by their own abysmal failings..? Sad state of affairs if true; but it does seem to be the case.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/czj401ldyemo
DeleteAsk the BBC, they seem to know all about it.
According to Chapter IX: Section 3 of the Constitution of the CiW, Evans is still subject to proceedings of the Tribunal he held his bishop's licence at the time if the alleged conduct. Now my concern is that no referral will be made by John since any investigation may well bring his own conduct into question (as it already is anyway). He is therefore highly conflicted. If he believes Evans conduct did not break the threshold for action, it will be perceived as a cover up (i.e. corruption). Therefore, the file needs to be passed to Cameron, the Archbishop's Registrar or Matthew Chinnery for a decision and for this process to be made public. So much does not pass the smell test here with the outrages that have happened at Bangor Cathedral. Poor Deniol!
ReplyDeleteWhamab
https://www.churchtimes.co.uk/articles/2025/30-may/comment/letters-to-the-editor/letters-to-the-editor
ReplyDeleteAnother dubious appointment at Bangor? The controversial Jarel Robinson-Brown was made Canon Preacher less than two years after he was ordained priest and has hardly been seen there since though he makes much of this title : https://jarelrobinsonbrown.com/ Another friend of the disgraced sub-dean methinks?
ReplyDeleteYr Ddraig Goch
Oddly, the Bishop of Bangor Andrew John is hardly ever seen there either ... and when he does, he skulks off early to avoid eyeball contact with congregants.
DeleteThe letter by two retired CofE clergy in the Church Times is worth a read: https://www.churchtimes.co.uk/articles/2025/30-may/comment/letters-to-the-editor/letters-to-the-editor
ReplyDeleteGrumpy
Not just 'worth reading' Grumpy, it it ought to be compulsory reading for all Bishops within the Province as it now puts them firmly on orders that they must act. No more pussy-footing, sucking up to ++Andy, avoiding the issue and sheer sheepishness. +Gregory I assume, needs now to convene the 'Bench' as obviously Andrew can't chair it and the letter of Rev Dr Jones and Very Rev McPhate should be its matrix. No deviation. The days of 'damage limitation' are gone. Bangorians and the C-in-W generally are demanding resignations and new-broom (not the one that repeatedly brushed matters under the carpet).
DeleteAd Clerum
Also worth reading among the letters (though not germane to this specific discussion) is David Heywood's on the “Church of the traditionalist future”.
ReplyDeleteOn 23 May, I asked in a post on this website, whether it was time for individual letters of concern to press for an investigation into the ongoing problems in Bangor Diocese and Cathedral to be submitted to the senior bishop of the Church in Wales, Gregory Cameron of St Asaph.
ReplyDeleteThe well argued, reasoned and, frankly, thoroughly cogent case put forward in the letter in the Church Times this week from two experienced and respected priests who are members of the College of Priests at St Deiniol’s Cathedral, for a full and independent inquiry into the ongoing problems in Bangor has now, I feel, made this action all the more urgent. Whether or not copies of the letter were sent to the bishops directly matters not; I have no doubt that they will be aware of it and of its powerful contents. Surely Bishop Cameron and his five non-Bangor episcopal colleagues must now act, if they have not yet determined to do so.
To press the point home, and to reinforce the strength of feeling so many of us have, I can only hope that a good number of individual letters will be submitted by email by tomorrow morning. Mine will be sent later today, with copies to Professor Medwin Hughes who chairs the Representative Body of the CinW and is, I suppose, the senior layperson in the church, and also to Simon Lloyd, the Secretary General/Chief Executive of the CinW and the RB.
The letters need not be long and they should keep to concerns, certainly avoiding personal attacks on any individuals, whatever our views on them may be. A wide ranging, independent, transparent and honest investigation, with the full publication of a report on its findings, together with any recommendations, is essential if the CinW is to have any chance of surviving this crisis, the worst in its century-long history. The hardworking priests and members of the Church in Wales cannot be expected to be kept in the dark and treated so shamefully by its leadership any longer.
John Pockett
"A wide ranging, independent, transparent and honest investigation, with the full publication of a report on its findings, together with any recommendations, is essential if the CinW is to have any chance of surviving this crisis, the worst in its century-long history."
DeleteWhich is precisely why it won't happen, John.
Several times in recent years, it has been played out that every Bishop has repeatedly responded by claiming they have no authority to interfere or involve themselves in the affairs of another Diocese.
If memory serves, the most recent example was the chocolate teapot refusing to get involved in Llandaff when Caiaphas had been accused of bullying by the her own Dean and the incumbant in Radyr, both of whom beat a hasty exit from the Diocese shortly thereafter.
I'm so glad I walked away from it all.
This is where Old Bill’s recommendation of complaining to the police about the alleged financial irregularities is a good one. There may also be a case for a complaint against at least the Archbishop for Misconduct in Public Office, as despite charging clergy with this offence is something of a grey area, the Peter Ball case in the C of E created an interesting, if controversial, legal precedent for Bishops. In my view, it’s a case of belt and braces here - parallel complaints to the police, charity commission and under CiW Disciplinary processes.
DeleteThen, if the police take up the investigation, the internal disciplinary processes would pause pending the outcome of the investigation, but it would be very difficult indeed for anyone handling the disciplinary to leave someone in active ministry without suspension who is being investigated for, say, potentially illegal financial irregularities and/or Misconduct in Public Office.
Good luck with that Father.
DeleteIf you can get Plod to tear themselves away from patrolling Facebook, Instagram and X it will be a miracle indeed.
Bewildered
All strength to your arm John Pockett but one has to reluctantly agree with Exodus.
DeleteYou're asking Turkeys to vote for Christmas and, let's face it, these are dumber than your average Turkeys.
@John Pockett wholeheartedly agree. My point is that John is so compromised by the scandal, any actions he personally takes cannot enjoy the confidence of anyone in the Church in Wales. In some ways, he needs to be suspended because he cannot credibly act as Bishop of Bangor at the moment. I doubt that will happen but a totally independent investigation is necessary now as the two colleagues suggest in the Church Times.
ReplyDeleteWhamab
Apologies first. I and my old allotments cabbage growing buddy Old Bill are full aware that we chivvy in too often on this matter, but he and certainly I have been banging the drum for years.
ReplyDeleteFirstly, what remains of Bangor Cathedral should demand that the +Andrew appointed archdeacon David Parry be removed as interim chair of Chapter. No archdeacon of Bangor has been so distrusted and loathed by the congregation as this implant who has about about as much (or less) understanding of issues and charisma as the bus inspector 'Blakey' Blake on the old TV series 'On the Busses'.
Next, a previous contributor to AB totally under-estimated the number of priests who quit or who were ousted from the diocese and cathedral. Each of them should now be located whether like Ven Paul Davies now Bishop of Dorking, Rev. David Fisher in Croydon, Rev Canon Dr John Daniels who escaped the cathedral when +Andy was appointed to the Dioc. of Hereford and even the 'I've seen enough' Rev. John Matthews who fled as far as he could get from Bangor to New Zealand where he's now a massively popular Archdeacon. No, as with Police inquiries, widen the search; broaden the evidence gathering; no stone left unturned otherwise we'll end up saying 'it wasn't thorough'.
Any inquiry of complexity ought, in my opinion and with experience of such things, be led by an absolutely independent chairman who might, for instance, be a retired QC/KC but aiding him, a couple of mid to senior rank retired police officers as are commonly used in similar. They would be focussed, impartial, clinical, unbiased, forensic in their examination of paper-trails and not at all wooffy. Old Bill agrees!
A budget for this??? Hey, who's concerned about budgets. Bangor Diocese doesn't understand the meaning of the word.
For a budget, the obvious answer is to make an appropriate application to the chocolate teapot's £100 million giveaway slush fund.
DeleteEnough buggering around. Two very courageous retired and senior priests have stuck their necks out to expose the wrong-doings in the columns of Church Times; others have suggested without action reference to the Charities Commission (but not done so); I went a step further. Report what's known to the Police.
ReplyDeleteSo: if I can lean on the support of perhaps 10 of you (hopefully more) who might weigh in with your Ancient Briton thumbs up or 'Yep' I will make the move and take allegations as known to North Wales Police in my real name and with all the wrath and consequences of Andrew's tantrums later. Someone among us has to take the bull by the horn.
I have no doubt that the Archbishop of Wales knows exactly who 'Old Bill' is as his secret service closet of clergy watchkeepers have probably identified many of us over the years. But hey-ho it no longer matters.
What's now needed, in swift response, are those 10 or more one-liners from AB readers petitioning to me/AB this is the only way forward as nothing else seems to penetrate his armour-plated ego.
One liner: Dear Old Bill ... I agree. Police should be now involved. (pseudo name ...)
Headcount and action plan to follow.
Old Bill (With tin hat at the ready ...!)
We are with you, old bill!
DeleteI am not going to say you should do it, Old Bill, simply because it isn’t for me to urge you to do anything that may put you (and your family if you have one) at risk. But I am very happy to say I agree that these allegations should be investigated by the police.
DeleteThis needs to be done.
DeleteCompletely agree. It should be taken further.
DeleteThe drip-drip of embarrassing stories about Bangor just keep coming. Two have appeared this evening; one, from Gwyn Loader at BBC Cymru, led tonight's main news bulletin on S4C; the other, from Martin Shipton, is on Nation Cymru, the online newspaper. There are links to them both below.
ReplyDeleteAs Martin notes, Sion Rhys Evans is apparently no longer in his post as Bursar and General Manager at Westminster College, Cambridge.
https://nation.cymru/priests-call-for-probe-into-running-of-archbishop-of-wales-home-diocese/
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cp3q2gjyydyo
My letter calling for a full investigation, including a referral to the Charity Commission, to Gregory Cameron at St Asaph, was submitted last night, with copies to Prof Medwin Hughes and Simon Lloyd at the CinW/RB offices. Both the bishop and Prof Hughes have acknowledged receipt of my email; so, they have at least reached their intended recipients!
John Pockett
Well done John.
DeleteThe nation.cymru link doesn't work.
DeleteThe link (containing the extra information about the ex-Bursar) is:
Deletehttps://nation.cymru/news/priests-call-for-probe-into-running-of-archbishop-of-wales-home-diocese/
Shipton is on the case again: https://nation.cymru/news/priests-call-for-probe-into-running-of-archbishop-of-wales-home-diocese/
ReplyDeleteNewyddion S4C requested an interview with the Archbishop of Wales to discuss the contents of, and reaction to the letters.
ReplyDeleteA Church in Wales spokesperson said they were not conducting interviews.
In a short statement, they said: "We can confirm that letters have been received by the Bishops of the other dioceses of the Church in Wales regarding the Diocese of Bangor and its cathedral and that the matters raised in this correspondence will be carefully considered."
Usual Cult in Wales cop-out and attempt to sweep it all under a raised corner of the rug.
Bangor is not the only North Wales Diocese with problems. St. Asaph Diocese is imploding due to bullying and lack of strong leadership.
ReplyDeleteI couldn’t get a handle on who is alleged to be bullying whom in this one from the story. Is it the Diocesan hierarchy who are alleged to be doing to bullying, or is this a local issue with the hierarchy not being effective at supporting the alleged victim?
DeleteSince he's got previous form bullying "subversive" elderly widows in Llandaff Cathedral, no-one would be surprised to hear the Tree eater's new Archdemon Gerwhine Capon is in the thick of it.
DeleteSo now we have a woolie response from +Asaph to the letter re Bangor. The same wooliness that ignores past deeds and fails to see the behaviours of recent appointees. Dismayed!
DeleteGE is not the Archdemon in St Asaph Diocese. They have far worse.
DeleteOne the saddest elements of Shipton's piece is the sense amongst Cathedral that the clergy may have been complicit in what has gone on. A worshipper there says: “Members of the congregation – unhappy about the events of the past few weeks and embarrassed about the amount of spending by priests on trips abroad and an apparent party to mark Sion Rhys Evans’ ordination and apparently all paid for by the Diocese, let alone the £440,000 spent on cathedral furniture under Evans’ leadership - the lack of oversight and basic governance by the Cathedral Chapter – whose members are, after all, trustees – has been one astonishing aspect of this whole sorry saga. Did no one fulfil their legal obligations as trustee and question this expenditure?"
ReplyDeleteWell, did any of them, and who are these 'priests on trips' and did any of them raise concern?
Dyfrig
It's so sad all of this, how the faithful, generous, devout laity in the Church of Wales deserve more. Are we in Holy Orders just a shadow of our forebears, all dressed up with no substance like whitewashed tombs, having a 'form of godliness but denying the power thereof'. Where is the brave leader who will rise to the surface and try the shine a cleansing light into all this ugly mess?
ReplyDeleteWhamab
The forebears were just as bad. But they were better at covering up corruption.
ReplyDeleteAre the 2 Church Times letter writers described above as "very courageous retired and senior priests" really whistle blowers or are are they just trying to distance themselves from this mess which they are complicit in? They have been happily quaffing the free wine that the sub dean introduced at the end of the English Sunday morning eucharist and wearing the sumptuous new vestments he splashed the cash on. Did they question this and other expenditures at their clergy meetings or just go with the flow?
ReplyDeleteY Ddraig Goch
Somewhat ignorant of you 'Ddraig Goch'. As all St. Deiniol's congregants knew and were grateful for, the end of Eucharist glass of (cheapish) wine had been annually gifted by a benefactor; not a penny of it bought from cathedral funds. Get 'yer facts right before muddying he water.
DeleteDo I detect from your Welsh Dragon ID and fact that you stress the 'English Eucharist' service that you're perhaps peeved that hospitality was gifted at this service but not the earlier Welsh Cymun Bendiged. Oh dear. I suppose a free glass of Welsh Sheep-Pee and Bara-Brith would be acceptable to you?
These priests did not go on any trips and were not party to any decision making.
DeleteThere are still some decent priests out there!
Who were the priests associated with the Cathedral who went on these trips?
DeleteDyfrig
Who were the priests associated with the Cathedral who went on these trips?
DeleteDyfrig
This comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteWho else enjoyed the jollies Deiniol?
DeleteFacebook "Cadeirlan Deiniol Sant " around mid June 2023 and you can find your answers, to be completely fair, the two retired priests did not go and were probably not invited on that Rome jolly, it was the choir and a very small select group of the former sub-Dean's chums. One, a long-standing server, should surely have known better, but maybe he believed the cover story justifying the expense?
Deletehttps://www.facebook.com/share/p/19NbdpeQDC/
And here's one that gives you a taste of where the £20K went. I'm surprised the Cathedral haven't taken these pictures down.
Deletehttps://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=10100147829079033&set=pcb.10100147829148893
WhatAHoot
Who sent with Sion on the pre-choir visit to Rome in order to “plan” the so called pilgrimage that went out in June 2023.
DeleteDyfrig.
The now bishop of Bardsey, the Archdeacon who disappeared over night, the archbishops chaplain / now vicar of st Giles. They all went on these trips. These are the ones who should now be facing a police investigation.
DeleteExCinWworshipper
It is not true, "Ceri Llan" that all the congregants know that the wine was gifted by a benefactor. I have been in the congregation for some years and did not know that. I stand corrected. That aside I have no trust in and have lost all respect for any of the clergy at the cathedral any more as well as all those on chapter. At a time when we should be celebrating 1500 years of our cathedral and city (and yes I am proud to be Welsh) we are being dragged through the mire.
ReplyDeleteY Ddraig Goch
I think it's important to see the Bangor situation in the wider context of other scandals that have plagued the CinW in recent years. In that respect, I found this piece by Mark Clavier helpful.
ReplyDeletehttps://markclavier.substack.com/p/hope-for-a-hurting-church
Following on from AB's third postscript added above, it's not only Bangor and St. Asaph where deep problems are occurring.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/06/03/malpas-church-feud-cheshire/
Arnott sounds like a right piece of work.
St Asaph in crisis
ReplyDeletehttps://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/mass-resignations-leave-churches-shock-31778391?int_source=nba
Evangelical Ed
I've posted this elsewhere as well as here. For information, I understand that other letter writers to Gregory Cameron have had identically worded responses. I also understand that A John is out of the country for up to three weeks, so no urgency on the part of the bishops, it would seem.
ReplyDeleteIt’s pretty obvious what the Church in Wales Bench of Bishops think is action in the current crisis facing the church and emanating from Bangor. I wrote on Sunday to the Bishop of St Asaph, as senior bishop, to express my concerns and ask for action. Here below is the really rather pathetic, non-reply I received a little earlier.
“In consultation with the archbishop” he writes in his reply. Andrew John obviously does not get it that he is a major part of the problem; sadly, tragically even, the other bishops obviously think the same.
Dear John Pockett
On behalf of all of the Bench of Bishops, thank you for your recent email expressing your concern about matters to do with Bangor Cathedral. In the light of the concerns raised, the bishops, in consultation with the archbishop, are taking counsel together about the next steps which will need to be implemented, and will release further information as those steps are determined and agreed.
I am sorry that I cannot be more specific at this time, but your letter is being taken seriously.
In Christ
+Gregory Llanelwy
So there we are then! In the meantime, frustration and fretfulness fester, rumour remains rampant and speculation swirls sweepingly throughout the Church in Wales.
We need to get on our knees and pray very earnestly for the CinW’s very existence.
It gives me no pleasure to say it John, but I told you so.
DeleteAs for the existence of the Cult in Wales, I couldn't care less, it has been committing slow suicide for at least forty years and I won't be sorry to see it implode under the weight of it's own filth.
Discernment and humility are needed not arrogance and ego.
DeleteSo basically it's: 'In the light of the concerns raised, we the Police, in consultation with the party accused of serious wrongdoing, are taking counsel together...'
ReplyDeleteYeah, that sounds like a professional and credible way to handle allegations. Thank goodness for that. For a moment there I was starting to think the CiW was defaulting to collusion and cover-up.
RevOlted
There’s a comment in response to John’s posting of this on another blog that rightly notes +Llanelwy clearly doesn’t understand the first thing about conflict of interest, and that this makes him unfit to oversee any disciplinary or enquiry process. How right that is! Absolute obvious collusion. This makes me all the more sure that Old Bill is right about taking the whole thing to the police. They might prove to be just as bad, but it’s certainly worth a try given this pathetic attempt at what the Bishops will inevitably think of as placating the masses…
ReplyDeleteI have no confidence in Cameron to do anything but obfuscate, fillibuster and collude to try to make all this just go away. If he truly cared about the Church in Wales, he would do the right thing and move against John.
ReplyDeleteThe bench is too 'incestuous' to be self-policing, there have been favours and preferments that mean objectivity is impossible. Constitutionally, the bench needs to be reformed into an Executive Council, with an elected lay member from each diocese in my opinion.
Whamab
Plus there is one in their ranks who partook of the trips and nearly half of them who were there at the jolly in Knightsbridge. That makes it hard for them to be objective about things, I should think. Certainly the optics aren't good at all, are they?
DeleteWhatAHoot
A 'progress report' of sorts on where we are with formalising a 'complaint' to Police. I have had a preliminary outlining the generalities. The positive is that the issue certainly hits the first of the two Police/CPS criteria: 'Is it in the Public Interest' to proceed. Yes was the clear answer. But on the second: 'Is there a 50-60% probability of conviction based on evidence presented' the jury is out.
ReplyDeleteAll we have to offer at the moment are the two Reports which are so severely edited (some might say censored) that they omit factual crux. Waffle isn't evidence. Publication of the full is where the investigative meat is. I don't have access to this (yet). But I am assured that should I return to make a 'complaint' official, then they - the Police - will have little difficulty in securing (by warrant if necessary) - the unedited and full Reports.
The insight and suspicions of Ancient Briton 'in the know' subscribers has been shown and shared but while eyebrows were raised, these too cannot be acted on because - as with me - we all write under pseudonyms. 'Anonymous' persons - no matter how well informed - can't be interviewed. Fair point.
It's the financial rather than reports of sexual complaint that has whet the whistle unless the person/persons who complained ref misappropriate behaviour come forward. That would be investigated by another branch of police and not those I have opened discussion with.
I was, however, informed of another 'interest' known to Police which because of high sensitivity has to remain confidential so not shared here.
The ball is now left in my court as to how I wish to proceed beyond an early and exploratory meeting and given of course, that I am not actually the 'victim' of the crime (if crime has been committed).
My gut feeling, having deliberated on the actions of John Pockett is to allow his process to pan out for maximum of say four weeks to test the commitment of the Bench of Bishops and its 'counsel'. If Police were to weigh-in now - and it would be a lengthy investigation - then that would let the Bishops off the hook; excusing themselves that they can't comment while a police inquiry is 'live'.
The above might imply a bit of a negative result (to date), but there was some rather positive too. Unfortunately, as the Chair of Bangor Chapter and Archbishop probably monitor AB comments daily I'm not going to give them the benefit of sharing certain helpful 'tips' police imparted in open blogsite.
Old Bill
I should have added, by the way, that if I do push the boat out ahead of +Gregory and others launching their own more inquiring investigation, then Police will issue me an Incident Number (or even a Crime Number) which will appear by reference on all Police HQ control room screens across Wales. That would then enable all (including AB subscribers with knowledge of goings-on) to contact their local Police, in absolute confidence, to share their information under real rather than 'anonymous' or pseudonym persona. When this is triggered, its simply a matter of dialling 101 and the #-number to be switched to North Wales Police from which ever area of Wales/UK you are phoning from.
DeleteOld Bill
Old Bill, just a correction: we don't ALL use pseudonyms. I am who I say I am. I don't believe in writing anonymously. In any case, I have nothing to lose. I have long departed from the Church in Wales and the Diocese of Bangor (mercifully). I am a cradle Anglican and was brought up in the Diocese having started preaching at age seventeen, and subsequently becoming a Reader, and later an ordained clergyman. I know the Diocese very well and it's rather intriguing to be looking in from the outside, and to hear of the shenanigans going on. Incidentally I now serve in the Reformed Episcopal Church (Free Church of England over the border) in the Conwy Valley.
DeleteI very much respect your openness, Mr. Parry, but its not helpful as you confess that your insight is only intrigue looking in from the outside or 'hearing of shenanigans' rather than being able to submit hard-on evidence. But thank you anyway. Those who write under pseudonyms and with specific insight hold the key to the course of action proposed.
DeleteGood work thus far Old Bill, and you can count on my support as and when a reference number becomes available. I would hope many congregants and volunteers of various types might be persuaded to log what they know, because it was their time and money which ultimately was being abused and misused. Any manager that lets their employees take a company to the brink of bankruptcy would be rightfully dismissed, yet in this scenario we have a manager Andy who simply mutters vague waffley platitudes and hopes that it will just all blow over. Half a million pounds or more demands action not just words.
DeleteExcellent work, Old Bill. For what it’s worth, I think you’re right to put the Bench to the test via John P’s process first, if for no other reason than if it does start looking likely that misconduct in public office would form one line of investigation, giving ample time for others to make their decision on where they stand and what their actions might be is fair to all concerned, and likely to offer more opportunity for the inept and colluding to provide more of an evidence base on their own part in the sorry saga.
DeleteI’m afraid much as I would be willing, I can’t be of much direct help in providing evidence. I have been out of Wales for some time (I won’t say where I am, and in case the Archbishop is inclined to try to work it out, it isn’t as obvious as he might like to think!) so haven’t been a direct witness myself to anything. That having been said, I have a lot of contacts and friends who have at one point or another over the past 11-14 years. Behind the scenes I’ll be speaking to them and asking whether they would be willing to go on the record to the police if the opportunity arises. I encourage others in my position, who still care about the rank and file clergy and laity of the CiW to do the same.
Thank you Fr. Duddleswell. That level of support is what is necessary if the likes of Sion ap Rhys Evans, the Bishop of Bangor and others including the current Archdeacon can't or won't simply 'cough up' and admit "Fair Cop Guv'"
DeleteWhat I am now exploring is creation of an off-Blog e.mail address so that those of us who might be of value to any police 'investigation' of historic and current activity can correspond in cc/bcc to Police without the C-in-W watchdogs' and legals (and PR people) having down-wind of what Churchill called 'The Gathering Storm'. If any AB technos can suggest a mechanism, I am all years. We need to get together as a forum of named people if Police are able to consider our evidence base.
Progress.
ReplyDeleteRevd. J. Gareth Parry, Church of the Good Shepherd & St. Tudwal, Dyffryn Conwy.
ReplyDeleteThank you, Old Bill, whoever you are. I am indeed merely an observer. Although I was made deacon in Bangor Cathedral, I haven't been inside the building for many years. I wish you well in your endeavours.
Doesn't it speak volumes for the shame and arrogance of the man that rather than cut short his Canadian holiday and return to Wales to save his sinking ship and face his critics the archbishop remains in the land of Maple Syrup. Had this been a political crisis and a Minister stayed away there'd be sackings.
ReplyDeleteHe’s home. Willwaitandsee
DeleteA number of suggestions have been made since I posted what I thought was the rather inane reply I received from the Bishop of St Asaph to my email expressing concerns; so, many thanks to those who have spent time and effort in making valuable contributions to the important discussion on these tragic circumstances in which the Church now finds itself. I would be very happy to discuss possible next steps through a dedicated email/website address as has been mooted. In the meantime, here are a few preliminary thoughts.
ReplyDeleteWhilst the suggestion from Old Bill to make an official complaint to North Wales Police in a month or so has some appeal, I would be reluctant to go down this route at this stage. Like other contributor(s), I tend to think that if there is a formal police investigation, that would give the Bishops/CinW/RB a legitimate reason to say that they can take no action whilst any such investigation is in progress. Given the complexity of the allegations, that could take a considerable time and should any legal proceedings be initiated, even longer still before coming to trial; meanwhile, A John remains in post, albeit as a somewhat lame duck archbishop, and the reputastion of the CinW would continue to suffer.
If there has been any potential criminal action in the various failings, financial or otherwise, I think that these matters should certainly be reported to NWP but not until any CinW/RB action has been completed. Maybe this is legally impractical, I’m not a lawyer!
I appreciate that some will say that the CinW bishops have shown this week that they are not prepared to take decisive action, indeed, their track record supports that view to a large degree, but the risk of this crisis being kicked into the long grass is too great for me. My offering, for what it’s worth, is to continue to bring pressure on the main characters involved.
There are numerous rumours swirling around about what has really gone on in Bangor, some of which may well be only speculation. There are, however, some legitimate questions which could be posed and there may be equally legitimate answers; the reality is that we do not know. Here are just two potential ones, I have no doubt that there are others:
Who attended the London shindig to celebrate S Rhys Evans’ ordination, and did they know of the level of expenditure incurred, especially if they were trustees of the cathedral?
Do members of the Bangor Chapter/trustees recuse themselves from Bangor Chapter meetings when potential conflicts of interest could arise? If so, has this happened recently? If not, why not?
Apologies for such a long post - you should have seen the length of the original draft! As a final thought, how does this crisis and the alleged incidents that have brought it about, contribute to the purpose and mission of Bangor Cathedral, as clearly set out in the opening words of its governing document lodged in the Charity Commission register: “To advance the Christian Religion of the Church in Wales for the public benefit.” I feel somehow, that if Jesus came back now and sat quietly at the back of Bangor Cathedral, surely he would be shaking his head and saying to himself “This is not how it was meant to be”.
John Pockett (most definitely not a pseudonym!)
Who attended the London shindig etc? Is the Freedom of Information Act available here or is the C in W exempt?
DeleteNemesis
There is no scenario in which I see any of the plankers in Wales even attempting to do the right thing, regardless of whether or not outside agencies are investigating.
DeleteDid you learn nothing from the Llandaff Cathedral Organ appeal swindle?
If past form is any reliable means of judging, they will simply close ranks and bide their time. I wouldn't mind betting the chocolate teapot has gone running to His --Darkness bully boy --Bazza for advice on how to (mis)handle the situation.
Why hasn't it occurred to anyone here that guests at the yacht club were duped- deliberately given the impression (as so often given by the former SubDean), that it was his generosity and purse behind the celebrations.
DeleteI can see that being a genuine possibility, but what I still struggle to understand is why guests attended such an extravagant and opulent event wearing cassocks, thinking that was an appropriate way to celebrate a colleague’s deaconing in the Church in Wales. I'm sure they now regret it, even if they clearly enjoyed the exclusivity of the evening at the time.
DeleteIf I had been a guest, I’d now feel compelled to express my remorse and, if so duped, repay any (illegitimate) expenses that might have been covered on my behalf. Strangely, I wasn't invited.
Dyfrig
I can see that being a very genuine possibility, but what I still struggle to understand is why guests attended such an opulent event wearing cassocks, thinking that was an appropriate way to celebrate a colleague’s Deaconing in the Church in Wales. Being a deacon is a call to servanthood, isn’t it, not a call to be self-serving. If reports are true about that evening’s extravagance, then it sits uneasily with what we are called to be as a servant church. I remain surprised at the extent to which those invited were taken in by it.
DeleteSo yes, I'm sure you’re right and that many do now regret their attendance, even if they clearly enjoyed the exclusivity of the evening at the time. We all do things we come to regret. That said, if I had been a guest, I’d now feel compelled to express my remorse and, if so duped, repay any (illegitimate) expenses that might have been covered on my behalf.
Strangely, I wasn’t invited.
Didums
You were one of the lucky ones!
DeleteThe parallels between your sub(standard)-Dean and our erstwhile antiques-dealing-dud in the Llandaff Deanery are uncanny, don't you think? 🤔
No I don’t agree.
DeleteDidums.
Cut to the Chase - it has occurred to me. That’s why I say what I do to Old Bill in one of my posts above about allowing some time for those who may be implicated in one way or another to take stock and take any action they now see as appropriate. So if there are people who were genuinely duped as you describe and who are not otherwise implicated in any of the alleged goings on, they can indicate that by saying so - on the record - and by meeting the full cost of their participation, reimbursing the Diocese from their own pocket (not Cathedral or any other funds). It would then be up to any competent authority investigating to evaluate the levels of truthfulness, insight and remorse in any statements, together with any steps towards redress they have made, and reach a judgement accordingly.
DeleteYep unnecessary and questionable celebration was peculiar and right up the SubDeans street and in keeping with his liking for luxury and grandeur. Absolutely peculiar to everyone else but his cup of tea.
DeleteHow can you expect guests to remember the cost of their meals/ drinks at a party how many years ago?! Be reasonable. I'm sure those who attended do wish they hadn't because now they're being cast as dishonest as the Sub-Dean for just attending a party they believed he was hosting for his friends. There's no apology needed for being lied to.
I just feel that this whole sorry state of affairs in North Wales and what has happened previously in south Wales shows the lack of transparency and lack of accountability in the C in W. It is so sad for us all.
ReplyDeleteThank you John. Indeed I had come to much the same conclusion - that an immediate full-on Police inquiry might only further excuse the various tiers of Church-in-Wales trustees, clergy, responsible financial officers, legal departments, etc from executing their obligations. Furthermore, the early opinion of the officers I spoke with - and their first reaction - was that it would be probable that Police interest would only focus on S ap Rhys-Evans as a person to be charged if weight of evidence is there (wearing any of his three hats including Cathedral Treasurer) rather than the Chapter. Yes: Police have experience of 'corporate' fraud, but 'Chapter' culpability in financial misdoings - 'knowingly conspiring in the theft or fraud etc ...' would be 'unsteady ground' for them probably requiring specialist, external, legal direction. Too costly.
ReplyDeleteThat said, with the trigger pressed and ready to fire, the assurance of both officers spoken with is that their curiosity is now acknowledged and adding to other 'information' they have already received. They have left it to me to return to 'formalise' the report which for the moment can only be 'suspicion' of conspiracy (which under the Theft Act is as good as crime actual). 'Knowingly withholding information .....' as with the Chapter is on same level.
One question asked of me was what information I might have reference the 'mystery' of valued artefacts which disappeared from the 'locked and secured' St David's Church in Bangor which the Diocesan Secretary claimed 'must have been stolen' Lorries full of it. Much of it had heritage value. Sion ap Rhys of course, has understanding of ridding church assets under the counter. Old cathedral pews and even the contents of his own Deanery to the Bangor dealers 'Relics'. Again, how aware is/was the Chapter???
However, from another source, I am delighted to hear that the archbishop has returned to UK (as reported above) as the understanding is that there is a welcoming committee in Cardiff wishing to interview him 'face to face' rather than via e.sites to Canada. Things might - I repeat might - be moving. The inquisitors in Cardiff are the professionals of the CinW and not the lame-sheep of the bench. Unlike Canada, Wales's welcome home isn't quite to be the cheerie 'sunny side up' for Andrew John.
Old Bill.
Im not sure I agree. It sounds to me (and I am not the brightest spark in the box, so may well be wrong) that what we are saying here is, don't involve the police, because that might delay us in getting the gossip.
ReplyDeleteIf we suspect criminal activity, it is our duty as subjects of this nation to report it to the police, isn't it? Despite what we think the length, expertise, or resources of the police might be.
I can't imagine any other crime where it would be ok to say, let's investigate it first for ourselves and then involve the police. Unless we don't think it may be criminal, in which case we need to stop spreading the fire by constantly mentioning them.
All of this is, of course, my humble opinion, and wouldn't put it past myself to have misunderstood something along the lines.
Outsider
You are of course right 'Outsider' but there are other considerations at play here; the immediate being which course of umpteen optional actions is most likely to result in the fastest possible removal of (a) Archbishop Andrew (b) Bangor Cathedral's entire 'Chapter' and (c) the disgrace the C-in-W has brought on the Diocese. The Police path, complex in nature, could take 12-months and if it faltered, then another 18 months for a C-in-W Re-Visitation to kick in, and if appeals to that were mounted, another 12 months. Let's add in the likely possibility of a 'Judicial Review' on any points of Canonical Law. By this time ++Andrew John will have drawn his clergy pension.
DeleteYes there is a duty on each of us (Chapter members included) to report suspicion of crime to the Police. But in this matter, the urgency is off because there appears to be little likelihood of a 'serial killer' repetition of the crime. Sion ap Rhys has been ousted, the archbishop has effectively had his blind eye poked out, the cheque books are closed and the plebs in the pews wiser, much wiser, to the shenanigans.
No more from me save to say (as I thought I'd made clear), Police have taken interest and have left the door open to activate if and when neither the RB/CinW or Charities Commission act. That's what they're there for: 'To Serve'.
Old Bill
But surely the elephant 🐘 in the room is recovering the funds spent fraudulently from those responsible (approximately a cool £1/2 million?)?
DeleteBetter to start sooner than later, Scot Plod have taken three years so far, and counting, over the SNP £660K and the Campervan.
Bewildered