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| Map of the dioceses in the Church in Wales Source: Wikipedia |
Another extension to facilitate commentators while the Chuech in Wales saga continues.
Please remain on topic and remember to add a pseudonym if you are commenting anonymously.
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| Map of the dioceses in the Church in Wales Source: Wikipedia |
It was extremely ill-advised for the clergy at GB who proposed and supported the amendment that was passed requiring the RB to 'reflect' on its handling of the Andrew John 'retirement'. Words like 'unchristian' were actually used to describe the actions of the RB trustees (and I only speak of volunteers here) who bravely acted to end the shambolic situation.
ReplyDeleteThey did not remove John from his post. They had no power to do so. They did, however, act in their fiduciary duty as trustees to say what they might do if he did not resign. Thankfully, John saw the writing on the wall and did the right thing eventually.
The body at fault in this debacle was the BENCH not the GB. It is they who should reflect -so it was dumbfounding to see Mary Stallard speak in favour of the amendment. Deflection and projection if I ever heard it.
Well done RB, you acted within the law of the land which trumps the Constitution of the Church in Wales every time, assuming it was ever violated in this case.
Whamab
The bench and the RB are just as spineless as each other.
DeleteBalls to the lot of them, they deserve themselves.
Yes apart from having a debate without anyone from Bangor being present, having a debate without having all the facts, having a debate despite already drafting a statement. Let’s not mention the leaking of statements and information out of RB showing they cannot keep information confidential and certainly not upholding the Nolan principles and then publishing a statement which didn’t reflect the fact that the Archbishop had already resigned. Where are the resignations from RB for leaking information? Seems to me that the RB came to the party late, panicked that they hadn’t asked questions and got a grip earlier and then forced the hand of the then Archbishop. Not the behaviour one would expect either. A pox on all your houses.
DeleteWhistleblowers 1 - 0 Chocolate Teapot
DeleteGood riddance to the insipid vacuous fool. The end justified the means.
@RSS yes and John would still be Archbishop. CiW and Bangor would lurch from one crisis to another, more disrepute, more crazy decisions that were totally avoidable by any competent leader.
DeleteYou make valid points, but where was the Bench who are supposed to provide executive and spiritual leadership? It was clear to all John's leadership was untenable. I believe in fair process and the failures are serious, but they didn't change the trustees' duty in law to act.
Asking the RB to reflect is deflection and hypocrisy when everyone involved in how SRE got where he did, to do what he did and those who stood back doing and saying nothing need to reflect. The truth is the constitutional mechanisms to bring Andrew John to account for his decisions were never going to be used (bringing disrepute is a disciplinary matter as is gross incompetence). The Bench just tried to protect one of its own and closed ranks forcing the RBs hand.
Whamab
This is a genuinely open question, as I don’t already know the answer. Apart from +Llandaff, do all those who have called for this somewhat pointless ‘reflection’ have good reason to be grateful to Andrew John, or one of his episcopal protégés?
DeleteI’ve known various scandals involving senior clergy as active participants in misconduct or negligent in oversight in several of the provinces I’ve served in over a long ministry. When it’s clergy defending individuals or criticising decisive corrective actions, more often than not they’ve been motivated by one of three reasons - 1) a sincere but misguided sense of loyalty to senior clergy who have treated them well, 2) a sincere but misguided sense of lay people interfering in what should (in their view) be the sole preserve of clergy, 3) the ‘good old’ issue of ‘that’s not the way things are done round here’ - something not unique to the clergy, but not unrelated to a culture of excessive clericalism (accountability, HR processes, the law of the land etc being things that shouldn’t concern us as a church).
4) They're implicated or were complicit and have a great deal to conceal, including their involvement, from coming to light.
DeleteNot knowing who was involved in this attempt to rewrite history, it’s difficult to give a view. But there are some who certainly fear being exposed.
DeleteDeiniol’s pet springer
Meanwhile in Bangor, the congregrants still 'know nuffinck'. No update on the choir, no update on 'redundancies', no update on nuffinck. OK there's a new Dean who sits in the rear pews and OK we haven't seen the Ven David Parry since his ousting as Chair of Chapter. All very well for remotes to discuss Bangor's affairs in some far-away S.Wales venue ... but oughtn't Bangorians be treated with some respect? All very well the RB and others assuring that they have Bangor in their Prayers ... but please don't pass the buck over to God's in-tray.
ReplyDeleteMushroom culture as usual?
DeleteHardly a surprise.
Bewildered
What a pity. That ball is squarely in the court of the Dean. Obviously it would take some careful handling, but any new senior person coming into a mess like that needs to give reassurance that they have the measure of it, or if they don’t they will have in a short time of familiarisation and how they propose to go about it, as indeed the new Archbishop has done. That the Dean hasn’t done that does not bode well, in my view. But then again, looking at who was on the appointment panel, I can’t say I’m surprised that at this early stage it looks like business as usual.
DeleteThe Dean still has time to prove herself but it was an odd decision to go on Radio Cymru’s Bwrw Golwg before speaking to her new congregation. Mind you, worse things have happened in Bangor over the years.
DeleteDeiniol’s pet springer
Even worse, there are so few Welsh-congregants (ie attendees of the poorly supported single weekly service) that she probably assumed no one would even notice that she'd been on BBC radio at all. There are more devoted African-Blacks and Asians with young families than there are Welsh. Perhaps a broadcast on the BBC World Service would have about as much if not more impact on Bangor ... !!!
DeleteHaving made so many enemies - clergy, congregants, staff etc - in Bangor over so few months in office as Chapter supremo, it will interesting if the loathed archdeacon, the Venerable David Parry will dare show his face at Bangor Cathedral for the installation by Archbishop Cherry Vann of Manon James in a couple of weeks time. If he does, there is good chance that the cathedral choir will simply march out again (assuming that they might by then be allowed to sing) and the congregation throw ripe and rotten Harvest Festival tomatoes. They say that the biggest bullies are also the weakest of cowards when confronted. Could be an interesting afternoon !!!
ReplyDeleteThe Archdeacon of Bangor is a fine pastor and has had to sort out a mess not his causing.
DeleteIn my opinion, he is not a fine pastor. He struggles to conduct services properly (as aptly shown on many livestreams), his sermons are limp and laced with his own opinions, which is ironic considering the narrative he pushes about protest during worship. He is not a kind man.
DeleteBenedictus.
It’s a sorry state of affairs and seems to worsening quicker than a lunar revolution! Isn’t it time that this church of ours got to grips with humility and transparency? Get on with dealing with bullies, reduce the waste, and protect what really matters. In the last month I’ve read about stipends missing in action, how many archdeacons missing or suspended (on full pay?), whilst at the same time redundancies are served in those who maintain the sung services so loved by visitors and strangers to our cathedrals - not to mention those who choose to worship there regularly. Does anybody in the Church in Wales have the ability, talent, and gifts to sort this out? Currently they don’t seem to be working hard on it - from what I can see. To those on the outside it looks damning! Are we really that close to “last one out turn off the lights”
DeleteFatigued
I agree with Y Parch in so much as the Archdeacon was faced with sorting out a situation that really should not have fallen to him to address. But I do not agree that it was not of his own making. From everything I have read, and heard from very reliable sources, he was indeed not one of the prime architects of the mess, but as a trustee of the charity in post during the period in question (either in full or in part), he bears shared responsibility for the failures in oversight that allowed those more actively involved to do such of the things alleged against them as they may have done. To put it bluntly, with adequate oversight - vocational and practical - the prime movers could not have operated in the way they did for as long as they did, or cause as much damage as they did.
DeleteGiven his clear involvement in the failings that caused the mess, it was never a good idea to ask him to lead sorting it out. Even had he had the necessary skills and experience (which I’ll come to), his credibility and independence were utterly compromised. So I feel some sympathy with him, being put in that position, but he could have refused to do it, and said it would be better to bring in someone without the conflicts of interest he had. To my knowledge, he didn’t do that. He unwisely agreed to do it. He wasn’t alone, Bishop Morris should never have chaired the Panel to appoint the new Dean. But drawing clear boundaries, handling conflicts of interest transparently and opting for genuine independence seem to be things the Diocese of Bangor has struggled with for a significant period of time.
In terms of what happened once he had greatness thrust upon him, the Archdeacon bears total responsibility for his own choices and actions, and here, in my view, he proved himself not up to the role he was given. I disagree with the critiques of his service leading and preaching - they aren’t anywhere near best practice, in my view, but they are also not inadequate. They are no worse than I have seen and heard in many places in several Anglican provinces. But I also think he seriously mishandled almost all the issues involved in beginning to address the mess.
The one thing in which I think he was absolutely right was to suspend the choir (and I assume the DoM, though I could be wrong about that) after the protest. Disrupting divine worship to turn it into public pursuit of disputes between participants can never pass without consequence, in my view, however justified the motivation for the protest. It is not the right place or time.
But even that was, in the greater part, a mess of the Archdeacon’s making. The DoM and choir made a very poor choice, in my view. But had the Archdeacon not done to them what is alleged, they would not have had reason to even consider doing such a thing.
I don’t know the Archdeacon personally or professionally. It might well be that he has a fine track record as a pastor, and indeed as a handler of problems - I don’t know, so can’t say. But in the matter of handling the mess at the Cathedral, I’m afraid he has, in my view, more than proved himself not up to the task of senior leadership - practically, pastorally or spiritually. I hope that, in time, he may be able to learn from his mistakes and rebuild his ministry. But, as with some others in this whole scenario, he may be best doing that in a different role, without the additional responsibilities, pressures and intense public scrutiny that come with seniority.
My reference wasn't to the Archdeacon in Bangor (like Fr D I couldn't comment). Instead, my reference was to the previous post mid-september regarding the missing Archdeacon of Wrexham. I don't know either of them but the latter has been in post actively for less than a year?? Suspended?? on full pay?? Whilst excellent musical traditions are suffering the scythe of redundancy.
DeleteFatigued (and Frustrated)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2j9vwvz71o
ReplyDeleteThe squalor elsewhere doesn't seem to change much, does it?
The church has to work with the people it has. One of the most stand out features of the C in W by now is the demise of intellectual prowess within it. Many reasons for this. A failure to attract clever people by now. The quality of theological education . The loss of theology departments in the universities. An over emphasise on survival at the expense of the abilty to think theologically. Would it be true to say that some who are ordained today would not make it to lay reader level some years ago? Or is that unfair? The consequences of all this is a weak leadership. Within the ranks of archdeacons and probably bishops. No one really stands out as a potential bishop for Bangor. And if you look amongst Welsh speakers the situation is dire. In many ways what happened in Bangor recently was a result of having to make do with the people that were available who were not up to the tasks. No use us shouting from the touchlines, they in the end were and are who we have.
ReplyDeleteLay Reader level?
DeleteMost would struggle to have made the grade of Sunday School teacher 60-70 years ago.
Bewildered
Up here in the Bangor diocesan hinterlands of the Ogwen and Nanlle valleys, word has it that there's a new kid on the preaching circuit pushing himself out for Harvest Festival pulpit slots as guest sermoniser. None other than the somewhat tarnished failure Andrew John now re-branded from his Llanberis-vicar-wife's parsonage as 'Rent-a-Priest'.
ReplyDeleteOne would have thought that had he any respect for the mess being mopped up in his wake, 'His Grace' would have had the grace to keep his head down for a while. As he was neither a 'theologian' nor particularly versed in the Scriptures one can only wonder what his Harvest sermons might contain. When ++Carey stepped down to move to Wales his efforts to re-engage on the Guest-Preacher circuit were shut down by the then Dean of Bangor, Alun Hawkins backed by his then Bishop, Tony Crocket. One might have hoped that Andrew John would have taken notice.
God forbid that this leaves the vestry door open for Sion ap Rhys to return in flowing silks and ermine on the celebrity platform. But ++Andy (retired/resigned/removed)?
How many Bangor Diocese popular priests of his tenure did he remove Licence or permission to preach did he ban out of spite or envy ... but no one in authority today to 'do thine likewise' to him. One can only hope that in order to supplement his P.45 income he's not charging the parishes like Llan Deiniolen and others his fees and expenses.
I’m rather surprised that’s being allowed. In most of the provinces where I’ve worked the usual convention has been Incumbents retire outside their last parish, and Diocesan Bishops outside their last Diocese. Any PTO they then have is given on the understanding they won’t exercise it within those respective contexts except in particular circumstances with permission sought from the Bishops for each occasion. Of course, some ignore the convention until they end up on the wrong end of a phone call from Diocesan HQ, but it’s there for good reason.
DeleteI wouldn’t have thought it did anyone in Bangor Diocese any good to still be having the ‘Shameless Ghost of Excessive Christmas Presents’ popping up every verse end…
If this is the convention how is it that Barry Morgan not only lives in his former diocese of Llandaff but also preaches in its churches?
DeleteNemesis
There are a number of former bishops living in their diocese. Wyn Evans, John Davies, Barry Morgan, Pierce, Dominic Walker. I think the precept that you don’t retire to your own diocese has long gone!
DeleteBlack Sheep.
Bully boy --Bazza was always a law unto himself but wherever he goes, Darth --Insidious is less welcome than a rank fart in a space suit.
DeleteYes, maybe it has in the CiW - I haven’t worked there for many a year. But in the other provinces where I have worked it remains the usual expectation, for very good reason. If you have a retiree who is an emotionally intelligent and mature person, it wouldn’t matter, as they would know not to make a show or a nuisence of themselves, especially while the new person in the role is settling in and becoming established. But when it’s the likes of Andrew John (and a few others I could name), it’s a whole different matter, I think.
Delete@ Fr Duddleswell
ReplyDeleteYour interpretation of 'conventions' is as my understanding also except of course in Bangor there is no Bishop to enforce it and no others in the C-in-W daring to challenge it. This has to fall on ++Cherry to warn parish priests off from sharing their pulpit with a former bishop of the diocese ... unless with exceptional reason. There is no one within the 'Diocesan HQ' with authority to step in except of course the delight that Asst. Bishop David Morris has apparently returned to duty looking healthy again. Perhaps he didn't know of Andrew John's freelancing around.
As most know, I live outside the cathedral circle - my potting shed and allotment garden up the Ogwen Valley being my refuge in retirement from insanity. But even in former career there was a general and enforced understanding that when senior officers 'marched out' - and especially when stripped of rank - they would not re-engage themselves. Had former archbishop John any decency about him he ought to have sought the permission (even if he still holds his own-signed licence to officiate parchment) of his archbishop to preach in any parish church in the Diocese of Bangor or indeed anywhere in Wales. Refer back to to courage of Dean Alun Hawkins and the BBC Radio 4 'Today' programme, Times and other press coverage of his action to stop George Carey from preaching at Bangor Cathedral and then Bishop Crocket's absolute backing for that decision. Sadly we don't have that senior and experienced clergy today with the same 'balls'. Shame is that Cherry Van and others purport not to read Ancient Britain so take no note of opinion. (I suspect they do, but deny it later).
Before he resigned/retired Andy John was given PTO by Archbishop Cherry. That he stated publicly to the diocese. There are theologically educated clergy in the diocese, a number holding postgraduate degrees, most working hard within their MAs trying to make the best use of the the limited resources they have at their disposal. There are things still worth celebrating and thanking God for in the diocese, but most of these things were not noted under the previous regime.
ReplyDelete@ Y Parch - thank you, that explains the PTO situation - I smell having PTO being part of the ‘requested’ terms of the departure deal. If deposing him as Archbishop and Diocesan Bishop rested on this in full or in part, granting it was definitely the right thing to do, in pragmatic greater good reasoning, much as him still being active in ministry in the Diocese is not a good thing.
Deletehttps://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c3vz2nkvq9vo
ReplyDeleteThe Church in Wales knew of the abuse taking place and did.......... nothing.
Business as usual.
My apologies for re-entering the chat ref former ++ John's pulpit-revival-tour of parish churches, but as it was I who introduced it, so might I be excused.
ReplyDeleteMet today with a lovely old chap of unquestionable faithfulness by tradition to the Eglwys yn Cymru who defending the Diocese of Bangor in closing a blind eye to resigned ++John's 'Archbishop on Pulpit Preaching Tour' re-birth said 'Well Bill, it's not surprising really. We just don't have enough clergy in the area these days'. Then he scratched his head, thought a moment and added: '.... problem is of course that it was that bloke Andy who either sacked the best of them or put other new boys off from wanting to come to North Wales in the first place'
Encore dear chap. Within weeks of becoming Bishop of Bangor Andrew John not only sacked his popular Bishop's Chaplain & Secretary the Rev. Emyr Parry but sought legal action to evict him and his children out of his Vicarage. By my conservative count, another 47 ordained priests have been thrust out or wisely quit the diocese under his tenure. It's not surprising that some parish vicars with empty Harvest Festival pulpits now need to sump the dregs of the pond to find a slug of a man to preach.
Priority job for Archbishop Cherry might be to write to all those priests who quit the diocese because of Andrew John's appalling behaviour to write to them apologising and to assure than Bangor is now a better place (?) should they wish to return. It's the right thing to do.
The former bishop has not offered to come to any of my churches. I am not sure that many of my clergy colleagues are inviting him. I imagine he is preaching in his wife's MA.
ReplyDeleteAmazing how now such criticism of Bishop John emerges. You were all very quiet during his tenure. And please don t say you were frightened. There is such a thing as courage. He was not the best choice, neither was he the worse. Long ago during the electoral college he was chosen to stop Meurig Llwyd Williams. Aided by two key people, one of them by now on Merseyside. He was not the only bishop to adopt the ill thought out and ultimately disastrous Harris Report that instigated the Mission Areas debacle which basically burns clergy out and turns them into managers. Bishop John did not do any of this alone. Others agreed with him. One of the present archdeacons has put his own name forward to become the next bishop. Yes in the end the bishop should carry the can but there were many hands on the handle. Hypocrisy, suggests itself. As I have said before, you deal with the church you have not with the one you’d like. So much of the present criticism smacks of a form of Donatism. Bishop John s legacy probably will be the Llwybr Cadfan initiative ably run by Elin Owen and others and of real relevance and appeal to so many, most of them non church attenders. Not a bad legacy that one. Something he can really be proud of. And as for him being able to officiate in the diocese. Of course he can.
ReplyDeleteIf you'd bothered reading this blog you would have picked up on criticism of the chocolate teapot virtually from the day he was appointed.
DeleteBewildered
I would love to think that Gerwhine is seeing this vacancy in see as a way to elevate himself to the rigors of being +Bangor
Delete"You were all very quiet during his tenure".
DeleteDid you read Ancient Briton's blog anytime during the last decade??
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
🤡,🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡
Didn t stand a chance then did he, poor guy
ReplyDeleteNo more than did your false claims that we were all very quiet during his tenure.
DeleteIs that you Andy, or one of his wives?🤔
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c2lxyxqzxkdo
ReplyDeleteThe entirely predictable and expected DEI tick box appointment has been announced.
What a joke.
I have no strong view on the appointment of Sarah Mullally to Canterbury, I have far more pressing things nearer home to deal with, although with the state of the CofE, along with CiW and others, I do wonder how relevant the appointment really is. Nevertheless, I certainly wish her well.
ReplyDeleteThe only point of interest for me is that she served as Canon Treasurer of Salisbury Cathedral from 2012 to 2015. The Dean of Salisbury at that time was, of course, the truly awful June Osborne, subsequently Bishop of Llandaff and we all know what happened under her watch here in this diocese, a debacle from which many here think we will never recover.
JP
I take deep exception to her appointment.
DeletePriested in 2006 but ABC by 2025?
Just who the hell is she shagging?
No male priest would/could climb the greasy pole so quickly!!!!
DuckingFisgusting.
Well Justin was only 20 years between ordination and ABC so I don’t see any material difference for the new ABC with 19 years 🙄. Who the hell was Justin sleeping with ??
DeleteIf it was up to Welby, Paula Vennells would have got the job.
DeletePerhaps that's the answer to your question?
Bewildered
My question was today on hearing the announcement was this: how influential was Mary Stallard in the appointment? Did her vote swing Mullally into the 2/3rds majority required?
ReplyDeleteWhy is this relevant you may ask, well Stallard was Assistant Bishop in Bangor at exactly the time SRE's alleged malfeasance was at its height. Was she responsible for his oversight as Bishop principally tasked with the day to day running of the diocese when Andy John was acting in his duties as metropolitan? Has she by her acts and omissions some resposibility to bear on the current disaster that is the diocese and cathedral church of Bangor?
If so, should she have been appointed to represent Wales on the CNC? And if she made a material difference when she shouldn't have been there; has a series of poor judgment calls due to the alleged conduct of SRE, led to the appointment of Sarah Mullally as the 106th Archbishop of Canterbury? Just wondering?
Whamab
I only know three clergy in the Diocese of London and all three are delighted that she's heading off down the River Thames to Canterbury ... thus freeing up the London See to a deserving bishop.
Delete@Ad Clerum
DeleteWhat a bitter comment (along with the rest of the bitter old queens that fill this spiteful page) I wonder who these three lone clergy are? +Sarah has been respected and admired both as +London and +Crediton and in previous roles. Shes a fine pastor and preacher and unlike many actually cares about people and parishes. She’s fully supportive of society parishes/clergy and a true example of Mutual Flourishing. A happy day for the CofE and Anglican Communion and a true breath of fresh air.
Truth
@ 'Truth'
DeleteI doubt very much that you are either a 'Priest' or if so, certainly not a priest in the Diocese of London I will refer your comment to those who served under Dame Sarah for their response if they can be bothered. No bitterness from me, just relay of comments from the Diocese she served; two of them quite senior. Glad that she's moving on to enable the Dioc. of London to return to basics. The God Bit,
Women however must stick together though eh 'Truthy'?