 |
| The bishops of St Davids, St Asaph, Llandaff, Swansea & Brecon, Bangor and Monmouth Source: Church in Wales |
One of the bishops in this lineup is destined to become the next Archbishop of Wales when the Electoral College meets in Llandrindod Wells between 5 and 7 September. Many think it a ludicrous title when a mere 0.9% of the population regularly attends Anglican services in Wales but it affords its occupier a dignity and status to be milked for all its worth based on the example of the previous office holder.
Given Archbishop Barry Morgan's slavish adherence to the reckless policies of the former Presiding Bishop of the Episcopal Church in the United States, I am surprised that he has not suggested that 'Presiding Bishop' would be a more apt title.
Given Archbishop Barry Morgan's slavish adherence to the reckless policies of the former Presiding Bishop of the Episcopal Church in the United States, I am surprised that he has not suggested that 'Presiding Bishop' would be a more apt title.
Nevertheless, under the Church in Wales Constitution one of the six diocesan bishops is elected Archbishop but not necessarily the one with the biggest hat unless it proves to be Buggins' turn.
Subsequent elections could be a different matter if the bishops ever decide to progress Section 15 of the 2012 Harris Report (Dioceses: their number and administration) as eagerly as they have attacked the parish system to introduce Ministry Areas:
"The present number and shape of dioceses may not be ideal. If we were starting again we would have three. However, the present number and configuration works and we think that the Church should continue, at least for the next four years, with the present six dioceses. ... These recommendations should be reviewed after three years, with a view to evaluating the effectiveness of the change."
If there were only three bishops to choose from, the first female Archbishop in Wales would be more likely - or even earlier! Could it be an omen that the latest addition to the bench also carries a crosier?
If it is not to be Buggins' turn I guess there will be another episcopal vacancy next year, possibly two as I also hear that a bishop up North is seeking to escape to England. More women bishops leading to less members on current trends.
After the Llandaff Electoral College farce when the JJ appreciation society attempted to direct proceedings, I hear that lay members of the new College have hatched a nomination plan that would silence the bishops by requiring them to absent themselves from the process before voting.
The former Archbishop launched a review of the role and responsibilities of the "the demanding role", which involves "duties within the church and nationally", mainly of his own making as he carried out his personal, liberal agenda to secularise the Church in Wales.
Whatever the result, the new Archbishop would do well to concentrate on advancing the Kingdom of Heaven instead of an agenda which has resulted in a much reduced membership of 29,000 in the Anglican Church in Wales and falling at a rate of 5% a year out of a population of 3 million souls. A demanding role indeed.
Subsequent elections could be a different matter if the bishops ever decide to progress Section 15 of the 2012 Harris Report (Dioceses: their number and administration) as eagerly as they have attacked the parish system to introduce Ministry Areas:
"The present number and shape of dioceses may not be ideal. If we were starting again we would have three. However, the present number and configuration works and we think that the Church should continue, at least for the next four years, with the present six dioceses. ... These recommendations should be reviewed after three years, with a view to evaluating the effectiveness of the change."
If there were only three bishops to choose from, the first female Archbishop in Wales would be more likely - or even earlier! Could it be an omen that the latest addition to the bench also carries a crosier?
If it is not to be Buggins' turn I guess there will be another episcopal vacancy next year, possibly two as I also hear that a bishop up North is seeking to escape to England. More women bishops leading to less members on current trends.
After the Llandaff Electoral College farce when the JJ appreciation society attempted to direct proceedings, I hear that lay members of the new College have hatched a nomination plan that would silence the bishops by requiring them to absent themselves from the process before voting.
The former Archbishop launched a review of the role and responsibilities of the "the demanding role", which involves "duties within the church and nationally", mainly of his own making as he carried out his personal, liberal agenda to secularise the Church in Wales.
Whatever the result, the new Archbishop would do well to concentrate on advancing the Kingdom of Heaven instead of an agenda which has resulted in a much reduced membership of 29,000 in the Anglican Church in Wales and falling at a rate of 5% a year out of a population of 3 million souls. A demanding role indeed.
Dear A B. let's introduce an element of perspectuive at this early stage. There is no such office as "Archbishop of Wales". The vast majority of Welsh people would dispute that claim. There is, however, a group who claim to be in episcopal orders who stand in need of a chairperson. The most that the unfortunate holder of that office can claim is that he will be able to claim to be Archbishop of the Church in Wales which is a miniscule body in rapid decline as you point out.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
DeleteWe want a female archbishop. When do we want it? NOW
ReplyDeletePostie
Whether or not tthe traditional Anglo-Catholics will receive any consideration in terms of oversight, depends largely on the Archbishop, so pray.
ReplyDeleteThat's a forlorn hope then.
DeleteThe great Giraldus Cambrensis always longed to be Bishop of St. Davids and Archbishop of Wales - alas he achieved neither ambition. I wonder which five of the above will be disappointed and which one will succeed Barry Morgan? Although she's only been at Llandaff for five minutes perhaps June may be in with a shout; she'd certainly stir up the church to the west of Offa the Mighty's Dyke.
ReplyDeleteConcerning the issue of catholicity Father. Midwives are advised not to cut the umbilical chord too soon. However, the Church in Wales inficted deposition on itself and Catholic tradition in 1997. It has cut its own umbilical chord with Catholicity for long enough and is irreversible. It chose not to remain within Catholic tradition.
ReplyDeleteThat new born is now 20 years of age. Just look the state its in, impersonating the neighbour next door. The ordination of women bishops simply adds to what is a modern day abolishion of the monastries. Who, and what gender the next Archbishop will be is irrelevant.
PonderingPastor: Surely in this conclave of electors, the invoking of the Holy Spirit is far more appropriate than the politics. Whom God chooses, let them be announced and annointed. Prayer for each chosen elector and candidate is necessary, not speculation,
ReplyDeletePondering Pastor, I am simply giving my opinion, which is, that the Church in Wales does not adhere any more to the Catholic tradition. Since 1920, the same applies to Canon Law, "We continue as we please" (His Hon Michael Evans QC). The bench sitters have firmly deposed themselves and are no longer authentic.
ReplyDeleteThey, and all who swear oath of obedience to them are ministers of the Gospel and Sacraments. For continuity to remain they will need to enter the Catholic, or,Anglo Catholic Church of Wales. The latter,in law, (in my opinion) being the celestial and terrestrial inheritors of the 1662 BCP.
As if the Roman Catholic Church is truly 'catholic' or orthodox in its beliefs. Does it not 'continue as it pleases' with dogmas such as the Assumption of Mary and Papal Infallibility which are not supported by Scripture or the Creeds.
ReplyDeleteTell me also, how can the Anglo-Catholic Church of Wales be an inheritor of the BCP 1662 with the 39 Articles of Religion written in black and white within it?
I agree, there are issues within Roman Catholicism which are difficult to overcome.Nevertheless, the BCP and the articles of faith embraces the Catholic tradition concerning the order of bishop, priest and deacon. It is male in gender.
DeleteThe present Constitution of the Church in Wales lacks celestial,terrestrial and historical jurisdiction in any claim for assets, which is bound to be placed on future agendas.
What was the Anglican priesthood in Wales is, theologically, now one of eldership, and what was bishop, an elder among elder.So there, an effective abolition of the priesthood and Catholic tradition. You have Peggy Pilate and the 'Chuckle Sisters' to blame if you feel demoted in any way Father.
I am evangelical so my concept of priesthood was always that of presbyter. As such I do not style myself 'Father' even if people call me that from time to time.
DeleteI am male and was ordained by a male Bishop who was himself consecrated by other make Bishops in apostolic succession. I have no concern that my priesthood is invalid because of your opinion on these matters just as much as the Catholic church's position that considers Anglican orders 'null and utterly void'.
My point was one could be catholic without being 'Catholic'.
First, the 1662 BCP and the articles of faith are the fruits of the Reformation where the basis of Anglican orders of bishops, priest and deacon is male gender. This belief and practise finds its roots in Catholic tradition.
DeleteThe fact that you were ordained by a male bishop is irrelevant, since you are subject by oath to canonical obedience by succession.Your next bishop could be female, unless she already is, or, in the process of discovering her/his real sexuality or gender. I compare the present situation to a modern day abolition of the priesthood to that of the monastries, albeit without loss of life.
Interestingly, you also describe yourself as an evangelical, yet within a liberal denomination which ignores the authority of scripture, as laid down in the 1662 BCP and the 39 articles, whilst also ministering within a denomination which is currently ordaining transexual individuals, and, by all account, is found to be in favour of same sex marriage. It appears that those of Catholic or evangelical persuasion within the Anglican Church in Wales discover themselves to be in a tight corner.
In my opinion, this makes the Anglican Catholic Church of Wales the spiritual and historical guardians and inheritors of the fruits of the Reformation to which you would have sworn canonical obedience. Thank you for the discussion.
If or when the CiW crosses the Rubicon of catholicity in my opinion, it wont be the Anglo Catholic Church UK (in Wales) that I will looking to join.
DeleteHow can a church supposedly 'spiritually inherit' the fruits of the Reformation when it doesn't believe Reformed doctrine as written in the 39 Articles?
And you think my position is contradictory?
Thanks and regards for the discussion.
A little snippet reaches me from Brecon where all is not well. Not only has the Jazz Festival, drawing thousands of people from all over the world, been told it is not welcome at the Cathedral (no service this year as in previous years); but it seems the Cathedral choir has raised two digits to the Dean and Bishop and said it will not be transplanted to Llandrindod Wells to sing for the Archiepiscopal stitch-up (sorry, election) on 5th as it will be in London supporting Fr Michael Thomas as he is licenced at St Pancras, Euston Road. On the subject of which, await further posts.
ReplyDeleteYet another example of a Welsh cathedral withdrawing from the public arena in a self-serving gesture of 'me first.' What a lost opportunity to preach the Gospel to the unchurched and show some real hopsitality.
Bravo the choir.
DeleteSo who is your hot tip. I had assumed it would be John Davies of Swansea and Brecon but now I think it will be Penberthy of St Davids who was for a short time vicar of Llandrindod Wells. I do not think the Church in Wales will be able to resist the trumpeting of a female archbishop because they think it will make them look progressive and on trend.
DeleteIt would be interesting to know how much it will cost to put 42 people up full board plus travel in LLandrindod for 3 nights?
DeleteThere is surely a choice between John Davies and Gregory Cameron, so can't they just have a postal vote?
If they really do have to meet for 3 days why not use St Mike's which is heavily subsidised?
It is time our leaders realise Parish shares don't grow on trees.
@Evans the song & Harold Darke.
DeleteDespite what the glove puppet periodically claims when he wants more money from someone, the "sung" services in Llandaff yesterday were farce.
No choir of any shape or from in evidence.
Guest choirs who've been coming to Llandaff for 40 years no longer appear want to visit and since Gerwhine disbanded the "subversive"Merbecke volunteer choir there's no-one to stand in to paper over the ever widening cracks.
The only thing Gerwhine can play well is the fool.
Another disaster to add to June's agenda for her forthcoming visitation.
And Darth --Insidious was strolling around the place attempting to shore up his puppet's crumbling little empire.
The dud in the Deanery disbanded the Merbecke choir for two reasons only.
DeleteFirst to spite the little old ladies to whom he felt it necessary to write his poison pen letters and second to spite the Canon Residentiary who he and Mr Toad have been trying to pension off for three years.
@Danny Jones
DeleteOf course money grows on trees, at least it does if you're the Bishop in Llandaff with access to an unaudited £55k per year "discretionary" slush fund replenished by dipping ones hands into collection plates.
No doubt the new Bishop of Llandaff has been directed to this blog because it is the main source of information about the Church in Wales, her diocese and her cathedral. If she has not yet become familiar with this blog, I am sure that her new chaplain, with her finger on the pulse of the diocese, will direct her ladyship towards Ancient Briton. Here’s something for her ladyship and her chaplain to address with some degree of urgency, something which has troubled many a reader of this blog, what happened to the monies in Barry’s discretionary fund? In the interests of transparency, will her ladyship publish audited accounts for that fund?
DeleteNot only should fully audited accounts be published for that fund but also the widely discredited Llandaff Organ Appeal fund.
DeleteAs the Church of England banned "discretionary" funds many years ago (referring June to http://ancientbritonpetros.blogspot.co.uk/2014/06/discretionary-funds.html) her ladyship should have no difficulty whatsoever in putting an immediate stop to Bazza's slush fund.
Yes but @simplesimon doing away with the discretionary fund is one thing. But what the new bishop needs to do is to publish audited accounts of on what, precisely, her predecessor spent the money he amassed (£55k per year).
DeleteIn the meantime will she continue with the innocent looking yellow envelopes at ordinations and confirmations, or does she realise the use her predecessor made of them? It will be a sign of her honesty if they disappear. And destructive of any ministry she hopes to have if they don't.
Or, somewhat bemused, at the 11:00 last Sunday. I'm curious - Isn't it part of the temporary music director's job to book visiting choirs? If it's in his job description and he didn't do it, then ????? Or perhaps he doesn't really care and if he can't be bothered to find a choir, or it's too much trouble, then he just doesn't? Wish my job was so "flexible" (also known as "simply not done") as his obviously is.
DeleteIn the meantime we should all learn Dom Gregory Murray because perhaps he can't be bothered to produce a sung (as in by a CHOIR) mass any Sunday.
Ps "temporary" because he will find this flexible interpretation of his job description will cost him dear. He could usefully read the detailed entries on multiple threads of AB about the Lucy England school of HR.
If you read the drivel published on page 12 of this months edition of The Bell it should be obvious to all and sundry that poor Mr Moore is already in fear of his job going the same way as the series of predecessors to whom he refers.
DeleteSelf praise is no praise at all but in his first 12 months at Llandaff he has seen Huw the handyman, Jade the cleaner and Nicola the bean counter all given the heave-ho by the toxic oily amphibian Mr Toad and all following on from the still unexplained disappearance on the little Catholic curate Ceirion Gilbert.
You can't blame the poor fellow for trying and A for effort etc.
But the highlight of his list of achievements must be that he's had his Choir Vestry taken off him so Gerwhine can set up his grandiose new Office and the only real reason he's had to "re-order" all the Music (most of which is redundant anyway because his new back row of scabs struggle with Plainsong and Darke in F) was to make room in the songroom for all the clothes rails upon which now hang the robes for his 4 Choirs.
If Mr Moore is wise he will be spending his summer sprucing up his CV and getting out of Llandaff before his 1 year 11 months and 3 weeks anniversary occurs.
The Lucy Morgan school of HR will ensure he doesn't reach his 2nd anniversary!
Good point about the cost - its going to be around £20k probably just guessing.
ReplyDeleteUnless there is some serious conciliation, this is going all the way to the Bench of Bishops. It will be impossible to get a two-thirds majority with the divisions as they are.
Should it go to the bench then I think +John Davies is the favourite.
Did you mean, "All the way to the bench", or, "the fence"? Goodness me, the Gospel according to the Church in Wales. Gosh, this sounds really exciting. Every day now, evangelicism is getting to sound more like the Grand National - horse number 2, + John Davies 10-1.
DeleteNot being a betting person myself, bet you can' wait for William Hill to open Whamab? Wow! The milky bars are on me.
Angels Delight
Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit. Also stereotyping evangelicals because of one comment for one of them is rather crass to say the least.
DeleteYou may know but evangelicals eschew betting in the main so William Hill will not be getting a visit anytime soon.
Whamab, sadly there is no longer a place for us as evangelicals in the CiW. As a life long Anglican I always valued the diversity and breadth so each tradition can excel and respect the other traditions. The younger evangelical clergy are jumping ship to England, and who can blame them. The older just biding their time or leaving before their time.
DeleteVery sad, but liberalism is liberal of everything except disagreement with them.
RUNNERS AND RIDERS
ReplyDeleteBangor born 1954 consecrated 2008
Llandaff born 1953 consecrated 2017
Monmouth born 1956 consecrated 2013
St Asaph born 1959 consecrated 2009
St Davids born 1960 consecrated 2017
Swansea and Brecon born 1953 consecrated 2008
If they go for "Buggins" that would rule out June ever becoming Archbishop of Wales as they were both born in the same year - 1953 but June would undoubtedly give them more of a liberal white knuckle ride than Buggins. But is there a possibility of an outside appointment - I'm sure that the Archbishop of Uganda, if translated, would get the Church in Wales back onto the straight and narrow and reverse many of Barry's reforms.
Bangor 1954???
DeleteCorrection - Bangor born 1964.
DeleteApologies to Bishop Andrew for adding a decade to his life
No apology necessary Father. He is referred to in Bangarai as "the boy bishop" with all the chaotic overtones and frivolity which that term carries.
Delete"Bangarai" Sounds very much of shades of the Indian sub-continent to me!
DeleteAs for "the boy bishop" - now you have been blessed with two girl bishops - that's One Third of the Welsh episcopate - as Tommy Trinder used to say - "You lucky people". Shame that, unlike in England you can't have two Welsh Provinces - one in the North and one in the South - then you could have both a boy archbishop and a girl archbishop. Makes good sense to me in these days of greater equality!
Yes Father David but what if they started to breed? After all that is what God intended when boy meets girl. The LGBT lobby would be in hysterics. We have troubles enough in Wales. Good Lord deliver us.
DeleteI shall try very hard to erase that thought from my head.All I can say is - Thank God for the menopause.
DeleteIt seems to me that all is not well in Pontypandy!
Scroll back a bit...the only pertinent sentence is " Who and what gender the next Archbishop will be is irrelevant".(Whamab) .
ReplyDeleteThe CiW is now the Protestant Church of Wales, and that is what Bishop John Davies will be heading.
There will not be a 'Protestant Church of Wales' Simple Soul, for the simple reason that it already exists (Council of freechurches) Or have you not heard of them?
DeleteWhy not name it 'The Alternative Gender Protestant Church' in Wales', led by elder, among elders,(no longer Catholic) John Davies.
Good morning A.B. Overheard at the Beaumaris Antiques fair on Sundau.
ReplyDelete"Shame about the burglary in Bangor Cathedral."
"Don't worry about it they are awash with cash and they are spending it like water."
"Really."
"O yes get in with them and you will never have to work again."
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
DeleteThe ears in the walls report Beaumaris Antiques Fair is one of the regular haunts of the often absent Dean of Llandaff when with his gay cabal chums dabbling and moonlighting in the Antiques trade.
DeleteIt would seem that for one who does not live dangerously I had a narrow escape Lux.
DeleteSeems so Watchman but you needn't worry too much.
DeleteWhilst the Beaumaris Antiques Fair is open to the public, access to the Llandaff Antiques Fair, reputedly being run from what USED to be a Deanery, is by private invitation only.
There is a large white van parked on the Deanery drive tonight.
DeleteIs the Llandaff dud moving his stock from his garagebefore June arrives next Monday morning?
June? Next Monday morning Pewster? No urgency then. We were led to believe that the charlady from Sarum Cleansing Services would wield a new broom without delay.
DeleteYou'd think that with a cathedral to run, including all those weekday services, the Dean wouldn't have time to scuttle back to Anglesey so often. Unless he's regularly AWOL? (Readers of this blog will know the answer to that one!)
ReplyDeleteIf I found one of my full-time staff running their own business on company hours I'd soon show them the door.
A van in the Deanery driveway? Interesting. Does this mean there's going to an out-of-court settlement?
ReplyDeleteI've just been reading the graphic novel "The Death of Stalin" and I see a certain spine-chilling parallel. Back in 1953 it was Malenkov, Beria and Mikoyan against Khrushchev, Kaganovich and Bulganin. "You do the Math, we need a seventh man on our side to have a majority." Where is Molotov when he's needed? Seems to me that in such a critical situation an even number could result in stalemate. If the decision as to the identity of the next Archbishop of Wales is passed to the House of Welsh bishops, it could be that a seventh bishop's vote would prove to be decisive following the ecclesiastical demise and the loss of the much lamented (not least on this Blog) Archbishop Barry, following his fourteen year long reign of terror!
ReplyDelete