Thank you Kernow. Yes, AB is stepping back but comments are still being published to maintain a voice for those ostracised from the Church for keeping the faith.
I understand David Morris is being considered for DDO of St Asaph. It seems strange that so many are reluctant to take him in. Makes me wonder what the bishops know that we don't.
I know the church in Wales are not beyond paying out large sums in hush money. The previous director of education at St Asaph was given in the region of £120000 in a non disclosure agreement.
Another pending HR nightmare for Gregory is the formerly disgraced DoM at Bangor cathedral is now DoM at St Paul's Colwyn Bay. If you change diocese, the safeguarding concerns don't seem to matter.
'Concerned exile' You're sharing a bizarre perception of the situation, which I believe to be folly. It's not a "pending HR nightmare" that the former DoM has been hired elsewhere. There were never any safeguarding concerns about him. If there were any safeguarding concerns, then they would have been made public, or he would have been suspended (like SRE and many before) before doing something like the walkout. He was dismissed for data protection issues and the cathedral disliking his outspoken nature, based on the statement issued by the cathedral. The cathedral have clearly been embarrassed by the exposure of their ill deeds, so I am sure that if an opportunity arose to slander the DoM or suggest that he had broken safeguarding rules, they would have taken it. From speaking with many sane people, the consensus is that the DoM has been victimised, and the cathedral in general has been more disgraced by his dismissal. This is perhaps indicated by the size of the current choir and congregation.
Furthermore, to my knowledge, the former DoM is currently director of music at the university and works in various other roles locally. These do not appear to have been affected by what has happened at the cathedral. Do you not think that they would have done appropriate checks if a real safeguarding issue had occurred?
Regardless of your opinion on who was at fault in the situation at the cathedral, it is unfair to imply that adequate checks and precautions are not being taken elsewhere. When something like this happens, the Christian thing to do is NOT to ostracise the person involved and suggest that they should not be employed by any church in the area. Perhaps you forget that before his dismissal, the DoM raised thousands of pounds to save the jobs of the lay clerks at the cathedral. I am by no means affiliated with the DoM, but your inaccurate comment seems to be written with the intention of misrepresenting his clean safeguarding record and spreading lies.
That wouldn’t be a bad job for Bishop Morris, if he got it, though on another thread someone has mentioned the Archdeaconry of Wrexham will soon be coming up. It does amuse me how many of those who appointments have gone badly wrong in other Dioceses are surfacing in St Asaph… Perhaps SRE will surface as the new Archdeacon of Wrexham!!
Deiniol, I don't think there are any. If there were any, the cathedral would have definitely publicised it by now because they have been embarrassed in the church music and clerical world. I have spoken to people across the country about this, and they seem to agree that his dismissal seems to have been because he caught and exposed the cathedral being underhanded (which doesn't appear to be a new concept to them).
Let's not forget that Joe Cooper (DoM Bangor) was nothing more and nothing less than an 'employee' of the Cathedral handpicked, albeit, without his job advertised by the former, disgraced, sub-Dean SRE. He would have read his Terms and Conditions of Employment and signed his employment contract. As with any employer, they have the right to sack him for ANY proven breach without making good-cause public. If Cooper felt hard-done by, the doors to Industrial Tribunal would have been open to him. He apparently had chosen not to. It is only conjecture that his dismissal was tied to 'safeguarding' concerns.
Cooper was a talented (but not too popular) musician outside the choir but he was not the keystone which held the Cathedral together. His (perhaps) fault was that he assumed himself himself irreplaceable and of a higher order than the Dean and Chapter. Silly chap.
Very well put Observer. Mr Cooper also made the huge mistake of taking his disputes and opinions of the Chapter onto social media and posted using his real name. Yes, any person has the right of free speech, and can say what they want, within the law. But as anybody who has ever been an employee knows, even if you don’t have a clause in your contract about commenting in public about your employer without their permission, there are always consequences of one kind or another to doing so. Very naive of him to assume the Chapter wouldn’t act against him for the things he wrote.
An observer – his job was very clearly advertised; you can still find the advertising posts online! He also is unlikely to have been handpicked, as he isn't originally from Bangor and wasn't involved with the cathedral before his role (I'm guessing). For all we know, he could be going through a tribunal right now. Even if he has chosen not to, perhaps this was because he has been so hurt by how he has been treated he does not feel ready to fight it? Either way, it's not fair to make false conjectures as 'concerned exile' did. Yes, I agree that as with any employer, the cathedral had the right to dismiss him, and perhaps it was unwise of him to knowingly (or unknowingly) breach the terms of his contract (assuming he was even given one; it wouldn't surprise me if the cathedral neglected to do this). However, my point is that it seems a gross overreaction to dismiss him over something which is relatively trivial in comparison to the major wrongdoings committed by clergy and staff at the cathedral, some of whom are still in post. In a similar vein, posting a statement about his dismissal was an interesting choice when no statement was issued about Andy John or SRE, and still no accountability or true transparency has taken place in regard to the financial issues that the cathedral claims to be going through (though they have found the money for various new roles and developments).
Speaking to people on the inside, as I often do, on all sides of the disagreements, it appears that Cooper asked for terms and conditions and a contract for nearly four years but was denied one by the chapter every time.
@ Deiniol Pretty unlikely Deiniol. Its hardly likely that for all their faults, the HR Department of the RB or even Cathedral would unlawfully refuse an employee a Contract of Employment which, is a obligatory after six months. Unless of course, Cooper had opted for self-employment terms so as to exploit his other lines of income in which case he could have been 'sacked' but rather his self-employed service to the cathedral simply cancelled. I wonder why he no longer speaks up for himself. The horse has now bolted so the stable door wide open.
An Observer, I have fact-checked this with someone within the cathedral; apparently it is true, and he did ask for a contract multiple times and was not given one. It wouldn't be a surprise that the cathedral neglected to give him a contract, particularly considering their leadership at the time. In regard to him publicly 'speaking up', have you not considered that he might simply be tired of dealing with the unchristian allegations and awful decisions coming from the cathedral, their supporters, and those misled by their dodgy statements? I don't know him personally, but I can certainly imagine this to be the case.
As someone who worked in the Cathedral for two years under the management of SRE, I was never given a contract despite requesting one at least once a month.
I was then made redundant by text!
I do believe HR law is now being observed and applied correctly since that man disappeared!
If you were observant it might not have escaped your attention that some time ago, contracts of employment, terms and conditions were obligatory from day 1 of employment. Bewildered
Maybe the work David Morris is doing for the RB is working out a package of generous reparations for all those treated unjustly by the mismanagement in Bangor. We can only hope. He’d be in a good position to know who to compensate.
@AB Maybe the recent posts on the previous tag ref the withdrawal of former ++Davies PTO or function as Priest in Wales is worth thinking to this site ... as many might not otherwise be aware of it.
Cherry Vann apart, this makes it a hat-trick of three duff Welsh archbishops in a row (including Barry Morgan) to have brought grief to the C-in-W. It says nothing for the system which elects them and even less for the weaklings from the various diocese who simply nod them through.
Yes, as the system says that the Archbishop has to be chosen from among the Bishops, that leaves a very small field. One can't do what the CofE did in bringing in the "outsider" Rowan Williams to be ABC. Hence it is vitally important that the right people are chosen to be Bishops in the first place.
Standby everyone for release on Friday 6th March of the long-awaited report into the full woes of Bangor Diocese and Cathedral and if they have the courage to publish it in tandem, the DAF shock-horror report highlighting the actual and deplorable bottom-line of the Cathedral's financial deficiencies. If they had gumption, the entire Chapter - along with overseer of SRE antics, +Mary Stallard - should perhaps prepare their letters of resignation. En bloc.
Some Scottish councils are about to quadruple council tax on second homes in their area. Here’s your starter for 10: Which ‘Andy’s Team’ Bangor diocese priest has a holiday home in Scotland?
Was talking to my friend about it over coffee, and all he said that he is now reconsidering his position with regards to keeping his past orders of services, which he WAS threatning to dispose of, but reconsidered this and now is back on the cards. Eye in the Sky
Quietly forgotten in the continuing shame of Bangor Cathedral is the discrete withdrawal of Bangor City Council from awarding the cathedral its prestigious 'Freedom of the City' status marking St Deiniol's 1,500 year foundation last year. There were grand plans to hand the Seal of Freemanship over at the cathedral last September ... but then the disclosures began to rain down and the City Council quickly realised it would be a major embarrassment to the City itself so bunkered down to a hushed-up 'exit stage left'. While the saga continues, there are, apparently, no plans to gift the cathedral the accolade in the near or even long future. Does it matter? Probably not but it is again evidence that Bangor cathedral has lost the support of the community it is centred in. Others who have received the privilege are Bangor University, Lord Baden-Powell, Prime Minister David Lloyd-George ... and even the BBC in Bangor for their WWII wartime broadcasting.
I think the report is good, albeit a little selective about details - I would like to have seen more about where the money actually went, as without that level of detail it becomes very hard to distinguish what (if anything) might be classed as embezzlement (inappropriate use of monies for personal gain/benefit) and what the less serious inappropriate or unlawful handling and use of funds (everything where no individual benefited personally from it). A lot of allegations have been thrown around, and it would be good to establish what is and isn’t accurate.
That having been said, what’s there makes the situation whereby SRE has walked away absolutely untroubled by any kind of consequential action utterly extraordinary. It is also pretty damning on the leadership of Andrew John.
Is that it then? Are you shutting up shop... I sincerely hope not, but if so, thanks for all you've done here.
ReplyDeleteThank you Kernow. Yes, AB is stepping back but comments are still being published to maintain a voice for those ostracised from the Church for keeping the faith.
ReplyDeleteI understand David Morris is being considered for DDO of St Asaph. It seems strange that so many are reluctant to take him in. Makes me wonder what the bishops know that we don't.
ReplyDeleteI know the church in Wales are not beyond paying out large sums in hush money. The previous director of education at St Asaph was given in the region of £120000 in a non disclosure agreement.
Another pending HR nightmare for Gregory is the formerly disgraced DoM at Bangor cathedral is now DoM at St Paul's Colwyn Bay. If you change diocese, the safeguarding concerns don't seem to matter.
Concerned exile
Was that the former Director of Education who had the public falling out with Caiaphas?
Delete'Concerned exile'
DeleteYou're sharing a bizarre perception of the situation, which I believe to be folly. It's not a "pending HR nightmare" that the former DoM has been hired elsewhere. There were never any safeguarding concerns about him. If there were any safeguarding concerns, then they would have been made public, or he would have been suspended (like SRE and many before) before doing something like the walkout. He was dismissed for data protection issues and the cathedral disliking his outspoken nature, based on the statement issued by the cathedral. The cathedral have clearly been embarrassed by the exposure of their ill deeds, so I am sure that if an opportunity arose to slander the DoM or suggest that he had broken safeguarding rules, they would have taken it. From speaking with many sane people, the consensus is that the DoM has been victimised, and the cathedral in general has been more disgraced by his dismissal. This is perhaps indicated by the size of the current choir and congregation.
Furthermore, to my knowledge, the former DoM is currently director of music at the university and works in various other roles locally. These do not appear to have been affected by what has happened at the cathedral. Do you not think that they would have done appropriate checks if a real safeguarding issue had occurred?
Regardless of your opinion on who was at fault in the situation at the cathedral, it is unfair to imply that adequate checks and precautions are not being taken elsewhere. When something like this happens, the Christian thing to do is NOT to ostracise the person involved and suggest that they should not be employed by any church in the area. Perhaps you forget that before his dismissal, the DoM raised thousands of pounds to save the jobs of the lay clerks at the cathedral. I am by no means affiliated with the DoM, but your inaccurate comment seems to be written with the intention of misrepresenting his clean safeguarding record and spreading lies.
Bangor Dweller.
That wouldn’t be a bad job for Bishop Morris, if he got it, though on another thread someone has mentioned the Archdeaconry of Wrexham will soon be coming up. It does amuse me how many of those who appointments have gone badly wrong in other Dioceses are surfacing in St Asaph… Perhaps SRE will surface as the new Archdeacon of Wrexham!!
DeleteWhat safeguarding concerns?
ReplyDeleteDeiniol, I don't think there are any. If there were any, the cathedral would have definitely publicised it by now because they have been embarrassed in the church music and clerical world. I have spoken to people across the country about this, and they seem to agree that his dismissal seems to have been because he caught and exposed the cathedral being underhanded (which doesn't appear to be a new concept to them).
DeleteBangor dweller
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cj98z1np8m0o
ReplyDeleteNobody cared.
Nobody listened.
Rowan Williams and bully boy --Bazza both implicated.
"We continue as we please".
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
DeleteNow that *is* news.
DeleteWho has done the revoking?
Hey ho!
🤣
Why was the above comment removed when it is quite clear that Shirley has had his PTO removed?
DeleteBewildered
Let's not forget that Joe Cooper (DoM Bangor) was nothing more and nothing less than an 'employee' of the Cathedral handpicked, albeit, without his job advertised by the former, disgraced, sub-Dean SRE. He would have read his Terms and Conditions of Employment and signed his employment contract. As with any employer, they have the right to sack him for ANY proven breach without making good-cause public. If Cooper felt hard-done by, the doors to Industrial Tribunal would have been open to him. He apparently had chosen not to. It is only conjecture that his dismissal was tied to 'safeguarding' concerns.
ReplyDeleteCooper was a talented (but not too popular) musician outside the choir but he was not
the keystone which held the Cathedral together. His (perhaps) fault was that he assumed himself himself irreplaceable and of a higher order than the Dean and Chapter. Silly chap.
Very well put Observer. Mr Cooper also made the huge mistake of taking his disputes and opinions of the Chapter onto social media and posted using his real name. Yes, any person has the right of free speech, and can say what they want, within the law. But as anybody who has ever been an employee knows, even if you don’t have a clause in your contract about commenting in public about your employer without their permission, there are always consequences of one kind or another to doing so. Very naive of him to assume the Chapter wouldn’t act against him for the things he wrote.
DeleteThere was a "keystone that held the Cathedral together"?
ReplyDelete🤣🤣🤣🤣
Pull the other one.
An observer – his job was very clearly advertised; you can still find the advertising posts online! He also is unlikely to have been handpicked, as he isn't originally from Bangor and wasn't involved with the cathedral before his role (I'm guessing). For all we know, he could be going through a tribunal right now. Even if he has chosen not to, perhaps this was because he has been so hurt by how he has been treated he does not feel ready to fight it? Either way, it's not fair to make false conjectures as 'concerned exile' did. Yes, I agree that as with any employer, the cathedral had the right to dismiss him, and perhaps it was unwise of him to knowingly (or unknowingly) breach the terms of his contract (assuming he was even given one; it wouldn't surprise me if the cathedral neglected to do this). However, my point is that it seems a gross overreaction to dismiss him over something which is relatively trivial in comparison to the major wrongdoings committed by clergy and staff at the cathedral, some of whom are still in post. In a similar vein, posting a statement about his dismissal was an interesting choice when no statement was issued about Andy John or SRE, and still no accountability or true transparency has taken place in regard to the financial issues that the cathedral claims to be going through (though they have found the money for various new roles and developments).
ReplyDeleteBangor dweller
Hear hear.
DeleteSpeaking to people on the inside, as I often do, on all sides of the disagreements, it appears that Cooper asked for terms and conditions and a contract for nearly four years but was denied one by the chapter every time.
ReplyDeleteLlandaff 2.0
Delete@ Deiniol
ReplyDeletePretty unlikely Deiniol. Its hardly likely that for all their faults, the HR Department of the RB or even Cathedral would unlawfully refuse an employee a Contract of Employment which, is a obligatory after six months. Unless of course, Cooper had opted for self-employment terms so as to exploit his other lines of income in which case he could have been 'sacked' but rather his self-employed service to the cathedral simply cancelled. I wonder why he no longer speaks up for himself. The horse has now bolted so the stable door wide open.
An Observer,
DeleteI have fact-checked this with someone within the cathedral; apparently it is true, and he did ask for a contract multiple times and was not given one. It wouldn't be a surprise that the cathedral neglected to give him a contract, particularly considering their leadership at the time. In regard to him publicly 'speaking up', have you not considered that he might simply be tired of dealing with the unchristian allegations and awful decisions coming from the cathedral, their supporters, and those misled by their dodgy statements? I don't know him personally, but I can certainly imagine this to be the case.
Bangor Dweller
As someone who worked in the Cathedral for two years under the management of SRE, I was never given a contract despite requesting one at least once a month.
DeleteI was then made redundant by text!
I do believe HR law is now being observed and applied correctly since that man disappeared!
If you were observant it might not have escaped your attention that some time ago, contracts of employment, terms and conditions were obligatory from day 1 of employment.
DeleteBewildered
Maybe the work David Morris is doing for the RB is working out a package of generous reparations for all those treated unjustly by the mismanagement in Bangor. We can only hope. He’d be in a good position to know who to compensate.
ReplyDeleteOutsider
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cgrz1rx0ejzo
ReplyDeleteAnglican divisions deepen.
Hardly a surprise.
@AB
ReplyDeleteMaybe the recent posts on the previous tag ref the withdrawal of former ++Davies PTO or function as Priest in Wales is worth thinking to this site ... as many might not otherwise be aware of it.
Cherry Vann apart, this makes it a hat-trick of three duff Welsh archbishops in a row (including Barry Morgan) to have brought grief to the C-in-W. It says nothing for the system which elects them and even less for the weaklings from the various diocese who simply nod them through.
All rather disgraceful in my opinion.
Yes, as the system says that the Archbishop has to be chosen from among the Bishops, that leaves a very small field. One can't do what the CofE did in bringing in the "outsider" Rowan Williams to be ABC. Hence it is vitally important that the right people are chosen to be Bishops in the first place.
DeleteSeveral before bull boy Bazza weren't much cop either.
DeleteIt has been mentioned previously on AB but the rot started with Glyn Simon.
Standby everyone for release on Friday 6th March of the long-awaited report into the full woes of Bangor Diocese and Cathedral and if they have the courage to publish it in tandem, the DAF shock-horror report highlighting the actual and deplorable bottom-line of the Cathedral's financial deficiencies. If they had gumption, the entire Chapter - along with overseer of SRE antics, +Mary Stallard - should perhaps prepare their letters of resignation. En bloc.
ReplyDeleteWhere will this be published please?
DeleteThe swamp of Welsh journalism - what a surprise! https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/martin-shipton-house-raided-court-33539342
ReplyDeleteSome Scottish councils are about to quadruple council tax on second homes in their area. Here’s your starter for 10: Which ‘Andy’s Team’ Bangor diocese priest has a holiday home in Scotland?
ReplyDeleteHappy vacation, Rev.
Deiniol’s pet springer
Custos:
ReplyDeleteOn line now Si under Bangor newslink and other sites. Read from P8 downwards, the preamble is Consultant-Speak and boring.
Is there a link to the report? I can't seem to find it. T hank you - SD
ReplyDeleteWas talking to my friend about it over coffee, and all he said that he is now reconsidering his position with regards to keeping his past orders of services, which he WAS threatning to dispose of, but reconsidered this and now is back on the cards.
ReplyDeleteEye in the Sky
Quietly forgotten in the continuing shame of Bangor Cathedral is the discrete withdrawal of Bangor City Council from awarding the cathedral its prestigious 'Freedom of the City' status marking St Deiniol's 1,500 year foundation last year. There were grand plans to hand the Seal of Freemanship over at the cathedral last September ... but then the disclosures began to rain down and the City Council quickly realised it would be a major embarrassment to the City itself so bunkered down to a hushed-up 'exit stage left'. While the saga continues, there are, apparently, no plans to gift the cathedral the accolade in the near or even long future. Does it matter? Probably not but it is again evidence that Bangor cathedral has lost the support of the community it is centred in. Others who have received the privilege are Bangor University, Lord Baden-Powell, Prime Minister David Lloyd-George ... and even the BBC in Bangor for their WWII wartime broadcasting.
ReplyDeleteI think the report is good, albeit a little selective about details - I would like to have seen more about where the money actually went, as without that level of detail it becomes very hard to distinguish what (if anything) might be classed as embezzlement (inappropriate use of monies for personal gain/benefit) and what the less serious inappropriate or unlawful handling and use of funds (everything where no individual benefited personally from it). A lot of allegations have been thrown around, and it would be good to establish what is and isn’t accurate.
ReplyDeleteThat having been said, what’s there makes the situation whereby SRE has walked away absolutely untroubled by any kind of consequential action utterly extraordinary. It is also pretty damning on the leadership of Andrew John.