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| The Cenotaph surrounded by pro-Palestinian demonstrators Source: LBC |
The Prime Minister has described the pro-Palestinian protests planned for London on Armistice Day as 'provocative and disrespectful'.
The government, the Metropolitan police and the majority of the British public are against it but the organisers insist it will go ahead.
What the march demonstrates is contempt for British values, values which many of the participants want to replace with an alien ideology so candidly admitted here.
Closer to home, the Welsh Government recently paid out £300K Swansea's Sketty Mosque and Community Centre to aid Community Cohesion.
From the Swansea mosque on 17 October: " 'Victory to Islam'. 'Look after the mujahideen' in Gaza."
Pure contempt for British values.
Might I make two points, please.
ReplyDelete1. These protests may indeed include many Muslims - indeed it would be surprising if they did not. But they also include many others who are Christian, Jewish, atheist or whatever, deeply concerned that Israel's response to the Hamas attacks, however justified at the beginning. is now disproportionate. Yes, the Hamas attacks were appalling and unpardonable - I'd guess that virtually everyone on those marches would agree. But should Israel be bombing and shelling Gaza in a way that has killed thousands of innocent civilians (many of whom detest Hamas) and children? The call - as voiced by Baroness Warsi in an interview the other day - is simply to "stop killing".
2. Sunak has said that holding these protests would be an affront to "the sanctity of Armistice Day and Remembrance Sunday". Hang on a minute: these days may indeed be ones of reverent recollection but they aren't "holy" as I understand the word. And one might well argue that many of those who died fighting totalitarian regimes would be horrified to discover that freedom of speech and protest was being restricted in their name.
I could say much more, and I of course accept that a small minority of anarchists can hijack any "demo" for their own ends - although this happily seems to have been notably absent in the pro-Palestine marches. I'd also say that those who support Palestine's legitimate desire for a state of its own - something that was supposed to happen way back in 1947 - should not be carelessly branded as "supporters of terrorism". I'm sure the vast majority simply want a peaceful and just resolution to this long-running sore on the world.
@ Baptist Trainfan
ReplyDeleteThe root meaning of the Hebrew word 'qadosh' - 'holy' means 'to set apart' or 'set aside'. Sadly, in today's pick and choose world, holiness has become synonymous with perfection. In the Old Testament, various things were described as 'holy' meaning that they were set apart for God, and were to be used at his disposal.
If holiness is about setting things apart for a particular use, Armistice Day is a day set apart or set aside for the remembrance of those who died giving their lives in various conflicts. I, therefore, have no problem with the Prime Minister's words.
Seymour
Well said Sir.
DeleteBewildered
Perhaps - despite the critics of 'Plod' - who pop up occasionally here, Sir Mark Rowley has taken a sound if not career-risky decision to snub the Home Secretary and has refused the 'ban the protest march'. But in the melee of cross-arguments - each having merit - let's never forget at this upcoming Remembrance/Armistice weekend that some 750 British soldiers and police officers were killed (many brutally murdered) in 1947-48 in the creation of Palestine and an independent state of Israel for the Jewish European dislodged. The immediate failure was the United Nations who proved - for for the first time - how toothless and inept as a global organisation they were. In 1948 Britain simply became 'fed up' with the impossible situation and gave up its Mandate ... and left the waring fractions to it. Perhaps that's where we should all leave it ... Palestinians and Israelis are grown up enough to either agree peace or knock each other out. The best the 'West' can do in this dreadful situation is to ring-fence the entire battleground to ensure no outside military intrusions from Iran, Lebanon or other crackpot fringe. Meanwhile, this weekend, remembrance for the British lives lost in this long-running and bitter clash; many of those lost being young National Servicemen. Focus, rather, on Ukraine and Putin: that is within our gift to resolve if only politicians and NATO had the courage. But like the UN in 1948 I suspect they don't have the 'bottle'.
ReplyDeleteThank you for your helpful post. Did you see, some years ago, the excellent TV drama series "The Promise" which brought that period to the eyes of a contemporary audience?
DeleteThat is interesting and informative and, yes, I did know the meaning of "set apart". I therefore take your point, with the caveat that Joe Public would probably interpret Sunak's words in the sense of "religiously holy" (if you see what I mean). I doubt if Sunak is aware of the word's derivation!
ReplyDeleteI don't see the word "Holy" in the quotation "the sanctity of Armistice Day and Remembrance Sunday" which you attribute to Sunak, so what are you dribbling on about?
DeleteWhile Sunak is Hindu, I understand that Christians believe in the "sanctity" of every Sunday.
Bewildered
I note a decline - almost to extinction - in the use of the phrase 'British Values', prevalent before in the political media. These values were/are Christian though rarely ascribed as such. One wonders if the centre can hold, or where it is, in multi-cultural Britain.
ReplyDeleteLW
I don't know how many have seen the comments made on LBC radio by Lord Soames (Winston Churchill's grandson and former Armed Forces Minister). He said, "A lot of people died during the war to assert freedom". While agreeing that the demonstration could "put tremendous strain on the police" he believes that the vast majority of people involved won't be out to cause trouble but will be there "to express a deeply held view. I think it must be allowed to go ahead and I think it would be a great mistake to play politics with it."
ReplyDeleteThe point is, BT, not whether or not the protest should be allowed to take place but the timing in defiance of the wishes of government, police and the majority of the general public.
Delete@AB
ReplyDeleteAs with any protest really AB. Whether ASLEF striking on FA Cup final day to generate maximum publicity for their actions, or Teachers' actions during critical GCSE mock exam periods, protestors thrive on generating maximum publicity. In this case, whether 10 or 10,000 people take to the streets of London on 11-11-23 is irrelevant ... they've forced the debate. The only difference here really is that it's certain Government Ministers - the Home Secretary in the fore - who have fanned the flames and ignited the PR hostility. One would have hoped their PR Advisors would have shut them up. Let the protest go ahead as Sir Mark Rowley suggests is the better option - but without the added gift of Cabinet buffoonery.
Old Bill
Sadly the "Cabinet buffoonery" has, I think, increased the possibility of the march being disturbed by anarchist/extremist elements - and some newspaper front-pages this week haven't helped, either.
ReplyDeleteAs a matter of interest, in my childhood (late 50s/early 60s) all the public commemorations seemed to be concentrated on Remembrance Sunday. But nowadays we don't seem sure whether they should fall on the Sunday or Armistice Day itself. I wish we could choose one or the other!
@ Baptist Trainfan
ReplyDeleteOf the same child era (roughly), you're correct in your recollections. But those were the days when folk went to church or chapel and Remembrance Sunday was a 'prayerful' event ... even from my memory with the august rendition of 'Onward Christian Soldiers' which is now, of course, political taboo. Many of the rural clergy were former WWII chaplains so their services were robust. Then exit the church with scouts, guides, Boys Brigade, and a parade of be-medalled Vets to the village war memorial and off to the local pub to recount old stories.
Such is the distain for (certainly the CinW) that the majority of 'Rememberers' prefer to shun the 'churchy' bit and simply lay their wreaths and poppy-crosses at the War Memorial, salute, turn to the right and march off. And I can't blame them. At Bangor Cathedral a few years ago, its canon - unnamed to save embarrassment - read out a listing of all conflicts in which HM Forces had been engaged and lost lives since WWII. Malaysia, Korea, Palestine, Aden, Suez, etc. Then he added 'East Timor'. Eh? Did I miss something in my Service career? East Timor??? It transpired that rather than create their own locally applicable prayers of Intercession, the lazy Dean had delved into Google to find one, written by a former army chaplain, to crib. Whose was picked? Prayers written by an Australian Army padre ... who did, in fact, enter the bloody conflict in East Timor. I'm not surprised the Royal British Legion and those no longer holding the CinW as centre of community life or empathetic to congregant needs shun the 'established' church and head straight to the war memorial.
Wake up call to all vicars and ministers to become relevant; leave wooffy politics at the Vicarage door, stop poncing around and LGBTQ-preaching to a Nov. 11 congregation of some pretty hard-nosed, no-nonsense, mainly hetrosexual men and women and the pews might begin to fill again. Lastly, your day and mine, we used to have Sunday Schools in those days who would also attend. We don't even have Sunday Schools these days. Derby and Joan more like .....
We're not a big church but do, thankfully, have children and teenagers, possibly 12-15 on a Sunday though it varies hugely!
DeleteWhoops - please edit my name correctly!
Delete@ BT & OB
ReplyDeleteWell argued OB. I seem to recall (again roughly same era when memories of WWII were still raw) that Remembrance Sunday in my parish church and those of neighbouring towns and villages would be marked-up as joint-third in terms of bums-on-pews with (1) Christmas Midnight Mass, (2) Harvest Festival (a good farming community with visiting preacher and resounding hymns) and competing for (3) place, Easter Morning and/or Remembrance Sunday. I doubt if any pulpit or lectern CinW priest leaning towards the 'plight' of Gaza and ignoring the massacre that ignited it in Israel, will mention the fact that 740+ British servicemen - mainly National Service lads - were killed (most dreadfully murdered) during the 1947/48 UN Mandate campaign. Far too provocative to ask God to remember in their prayers. Politically sensitive little darlings.
But my purpose in writing is to hope that that Leader-of-Lunacy archbishop John, might read comments here (to date) and apply himself to the congregation at St Deiniol's cathedral on Sunday where he's making a rare public appearance. Let his sermon be wise, relevant to his congregation, respectful (could be difficult for him), informed and faultless in 'Google' research and particularly respectful to the dead of all wars and campaigns. A sermon which might leave veterans, the widows and orphans of service personnel, those suffering life-changing injuries and mental health problems leave his cathedral with a warm-feeling and a rousing that their and others' sacrifices had value. Sadly, fear the idiot will probably think he's addressing a Peace rally or that he's preaching to the applause of the local Mosque. If anyone attends Bangor on Sunday, perhaps you'd report back.
Ad Clerum
As a post-graduate and 'Discernment' process approved hopeful for ordination in the CofE next year I wonder if Ancient Briton might set aside the occasional 'Caption Corner' to give way to a reader's competition for the worst examples of clergy screw-ups and insensitive sermons on Remembrance Sunday, It seems from above comments that there is some learning for us young 'uns to take in to avoid insulting or demeaning our congregants on this sensitive day. I had heard once of a belligerant church organist who had already decided to quit over some dispute with his Rector and Remembrance Day his last service. Up stood the congregants for the last rousing hymn and the tune chosen was indeed a beautiful composition by Joseph Haydn (1797) .... unfortunately or by design, it was also the German national anthem!! What a way to bow out!! (If true).
ReplyDeleteCerri Llan
Finally some common sense is breaking out, but they should be banned altogether. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67383065
ReplyDeletePolice searching for smiling woman over racist coconuts 🥥 slur.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/11/12/met-police-search-pro-palestine-protesters-hate-crime/
It has been reported that the coconut woman is a teacher.
DeleteNow there's a surprise.
Bewildered
Braverman was right, they are hate-filled marches. The ultimate goal of the marchers is that Britain should become an Islamic country; even if that means rivers of blood... the highly intelligent man who foresaw all this was right too.
ReplyDelete