Monday, 14 November 2022

Thirty years on...


Dawn French playing the Rev Geraldine Granger, Vicar of Dibley, who dons a joke bishop's hat
 in a 2013 Comic Relief sketch.  Source: Mail Online

A tweet from one of the Church of England's celebrity priests indicates that thirty years on from the approval by General Synod of the final legislation for women to become priests, a third of all those who are in ordained ministry are women and 31 women have been made bishops.

The Rev Kate Bottley along with the fictional Vicar of Dibley are about as far removed from the traditional view of priesthood as we could have possibly imagined 30 years ago but they fit in perfectly with the aims of Women and the Church. Their 'charitable' objectives are purely secular -

"The promotion of gender equality and diversity with the Church of England as experienced by both lay and ordained people for the public benefit by:

1. The elimination of discrimination on grounds of gender;
2. Advancing education and raising awareness in gender equality and diversity;
3. Conducting or commissioning research on equality and diversity issues and publishing the result to  the public; and
4. Cultivating a sentiment in favour of gender equality and diversity."

The secular aims of gender justice, equality and inclusion are far removed from the 'otherness' enjoyed by churchgoers thirty years ago. They have split communities and friendships as false notions of equality have replaced theology. 

More 'diversity' has resulted in bishops and archbishops abandoning traditional understanding of biblical teaching which has been handed down over two millennia.

The Five Guiding Principles which provide guidance for candidates for ordination in the Church of England have been consistently undermined by WATCH under the mask of ‘institutionalised discrimination’, something the absent bishop of St Davids, Joanna Penberthy, regularly complained of.

When pressed to describe the alleged discrimination the best the bishop could come up with was that some people disagreed with her. That precisely sums up the attitude of WATCH

The same tactics have been adopted by LGBT complainers to accuse anyone who disagrees with them of discrimination and homophobia with no evidence whatsoever, something with which readers of the blog will be very familiar.

All of which has led to blessing same sex couples with same sex marriage on the horizon, which is driving Western Anglicanism further away from the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church of which they claim to be part of in such as the Five Guiding Principles.

It is predicted that the Church of England will be extinct by the 2060's and the Church in Wales well before that.  Equally dead!

61 comments:

  1. Alas, Anglicanism is STILL clinging onto its delusion they are all part of the "1 Holy Catholic Church." You know where you stand with the Orthodox church. The RC authorities invited Anglican Bishops to 'prove their Catholicity' before their vote for the ordination of women ..the Anglicans rejected this." Sorry - you're Protestant.

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    Replies
    1. The false prophets still claim to be "apostolic" too but that's another pile of ordure.

      Delete
  2. So Kate Bottley et. al, "are about as far removed from the traditional view of priesthood as we could have possibly imagined 30 years ago"? Fair enough ... but wasn't Jesus in his day about as far removed from the traditional notions of what a Rabbi should be like and how he should behave? (And that's before we come to his teaching which shocked the ecclesial establishment but was popular among ordinary people).

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    Replies
    1. No.
      He was male (and not transgender either!).

      Delete
  3. Firstly, BT, Jesus was not a Pharisee, and therefore he was not a Rabbi. You only have to read his condemnation of Phariseeism in Matthew 23 to realize that. Those 'shocked' ecclesial authorities were quite happy to submit to him when the occasion demanded it viz. Jairus, Joseph of Arimathea, and Nicodemus, which begs the question: were the authorities really shocked at all of simply feigning it?
    We also see in our Lord's words: 'Fear not, little flock, it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the Kingdom' that Jesus did not expect his real followers to be many - ultimately, they would be a little flock. It does not suggest that Jesus was seduced by the modern cult of fifteen minutes of fame. Sadly, too many clergy these days are seduced by the 'fame game'. For the good Lord, many followed him looking for what they could get out of him.
    Seymour

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    Replies
    1. Of course Jesus wasn't a Pharisee. But he - and, I believe, John the Baptist - are both addressed on various occasions as "Rabbi".

      Delete
    2. That's right. And the CiW bishops are addressed as 'bishop' and as 'priest'. But that doesn't mean that they ARE a bishop or even a priest.

      Delete
  4. Just a comment on dressing up in the Bishop's Hat. I don't know if they teach anything about ecclesiastical vestments in the Janet and John skool of feeology, Llandaff (they certainly don't teach the difference between a title and form of address for clergy - but there is a whole page on this subject on The CiW website). I digress. Photographs from a local cenotaph service, yesterday, showing a priestess wearing a rather nice cotta - with a hood and scarf. This same priestess pictured on Holy Saturday, last year, lighting the Paschal Candle, wearing Eucharistic Vestments - topped off with a cope. In the grand scheme of things, it should not matter, but we are a church that wears vestments. As such, they should be worn correctly. Oh and Rev Kate, Rev Fred or Rev lettuce they certainly are not.
    Unison Off.

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    1. As mentioned previously, Llandaff desperately needed a Fred but Caiaphas has provided a Dick.

      Delete
  5. Sir

    When it was accepted that sex was irrelevant to the priesthood, then the question emerged: why should sexual orientation be relevant?

    If sex and sexual orientation are irrelevant, then on what ground can the transgendered be barred?

    Does WATCH now accept male-to-female priests? If so can the male-to-female priests be counted as part of the number of female priests in the Church in Wales?
    Could they apply for funding which, in the past, would have been reserved for the training of female theology students?

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    Replies
    1. It has NOT been accepted that sex is irrelevant to the Priesthood!
      From where did you get that erroneous idea and why do you keep repeating it?

      Delete
    2. Menai Straight

      The Church in Wales accepts female priests and bishops.

      Delete
    3. Gender, sex and sexual orientation are different things.

      Delete
    4. Good.
      Then perhaps you will also agree with the fact that since women's ordination 30 years ago, attendance has plummeted in the Church in Wales.
      The Governing Body might have been fooled and bullied into voting for it but swathes of the pew sitters didn't and subsequently voted with their feet.
      The facts have become so embarrassing that attendance and communicant numbers are now concealed.

      Delete
  6. So an LGBT Bishop from across the border appoints a gay Dean - also from across the border - to live with his partner on the Green, and then immediately retires to England. Disrespect for Wales and the Welsh Church doesn't cover it. Enquiry expected.
    LW

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  7. Sir

    You state: 'The Rev Kate Bottley along with the fictional Vicar of Dibley are about as far removed from the traditional view of priesthood as we could have possibly imagined 30 years ago'.

    Or even 2,700 years ago.

    The Christian priesthood did not emerge from a vacuum. For thousands of years a female priest was unknown. The priesthood was always a man's world, it involved 'blood work'. We have the red wine representing the blood.

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  8. I refer to AB's opening Blog viz 'women' as against straight, trans, lesbian women and not to any subsequent blogger comments. Should we call perhaps calm down. The battle of women priests more than 30 years ago is long past. We are now a Church with women priests and yes, women Bishops. I was against it but now find it quite unimportant. One of the finest Rectors I have come to know is female, a certain Rev. Canon Dr. and no man can match her for her work and pastoring. There are many more I have come to admire, respect and who I would place way above many male clergy of my wide experience.

    Issue is to call out not just dysfunctional 'wommin' priests, but also the men clergy and taken as a whole I suspect there might be more of the male gene who fail our Church than (pro rata) female. Yes of course there are high profile female clergy who deserve the ire of bloggers, but so too are there males of equal or greater shame. So let's call them out name-by-name rather than whether they wear 'Y' fronts or knickers (or perhaps none at all as with ceertain Welsh bishops who enjoy dressing up in the Highland kilt where knickers are taboo).

    Fair's fair. Let's not resurrect old moans and groans about women priests in general. To live in the past ensures we won't survive for the future.

    Ad Clerum



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    1. By no means have all faithful anglo catholics accepted women's orders and ordination.
      I, for one, refuse to accept that particular battle is over.
      A great number of those who have been abandoned by the Cult in Wales agree with me.

      Delete
    2. It is the duplicity I object to Ad Clerum, such as the claims by @MrsMitre, the Chair of WATCH, of discrimination and sexism for holding to traditional theology which is an honourable position under the Five Guiding Principles. For many of us it is not a question of whether a woman could perform the ministry of a priest but whether they should.

      Delete
    3. They should not.
      Christ did not give women the commission he gave to the twelve Apostles.

      Delete
    4. Ad Clerum

      'Fair's fair. Let's not resurrect old moans and groans about women priests in general. To live in the past ensures we won't survive for the future.'

      Just one final point if I may.

      It is the liberals who have dragged us into the pre-Christian past. That is regressive. It was the pagan religions that had female priests.

      Children are increasingly confused over gender/sex - the churches must return to keeping the distinctions between the sexes.

      'With the Church, we are farther in: for there we are dealing with male and female not merely as facts of nature but as the live and awful shadows of realities utterly beyond our control and largely beyond our direct knowledge. Or rather, we are not dealing with them but (as we shall soon learn if we meddle) they are dealing with us.'

      Prof CS Lewis

      Delete
  9. @ D Singh

    Unless you are a better scholar than 2,000 years academic knowledge, then perhaps you are misled in announcing that the Christian church has been bereft of women priests since its inception (you cite 2,700 years ago: I'll run with 2022 +/-).

    You appear to assume that Christianity came into being post Henry VIII and the creation by blood and ruthlessness of the Anglican church; but irrespective we come from the history of the Roman Catholic church and all that's contained in its Vatican knowledge of the past. Like it or not, women feature. There's the small matter of (855-857) Pope Joan (Ioannes Anglicus) which shook the establishment and which caused the Vatican to craft a ritual for ensure no more women Popes.

    But then for summer holiday planning, take in a visit to the Catacomb of Priscilla in Rome and the tombs and records of some of the earliest FEMALE CHRISTIAN priests known.

    Then of course, the umpteen - hundreds - of women who ascend rank of priest, canon, archdeacon, bishop in the Church-in-Wales and who are venerated & canonised, as Saints. Our North Wales Santess Dwynwen was priestess founding her own church (Christian) then sainted. If you don't believe it, then let's knock her off the list and cease praying to her.

    But don't come-it with 2,700 years of Christian worship without female priests until 30 years ago,

    There's the little-known story of a French (female) nurse entrusted by the Gestapo in 1942 to tend to the dying in their interrogation centre outside Cluny, near Macon, France. In her First Aid care was a young man 'Maquis' - Resistance - of obvious Christian faith: dying. Her local Bishop took immediate decision to 'ordain' - commissioned in the field if you wish - her and gift her the right to administer his Communion and serve him the Last Rites. She was 'priested'. Her sex was irrelevant.

    Would you challenge the lady with the chalice Mr. Singh or the Bishop who bravely granted her that sacred 'ordination'? Whinge and moaning is easy. Learning is perhaps more wearisome.

    Old Bill

    Old Bill

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    Replies
    1. Old Bill

      I was taking into account Judaism.

      Not a single female priest in Judaism nor Christianity, until recently.

      Delete
  10. Indeed AncientBriton: I well understand the position but 'it is what it is' and perhaps we might accept there is little we can do about it. But my point was that in the 30 years since that decision of 'whether they should' we should perhaps recognise what many - not all and perhaps not the majority - have done, The Year of 30 intake made good accounts of themselves. Sadly the newer intakes of LGBTQ+ 'wimmin' jumping in on the bandwagon have disgraced their sex to no benefit to the Anglican communion. In my view, they are more 'toxic' than gay-men priests. What's to be done? Not a clue.

    ReplyDelete
  11. Thirty years compared to two thousand.
    You really need to ask?

    ReplyDelete
  12. On an unrelated but related matter, have you seen the letter in the Western Mail from a disaffected parishioner in the forsaken land of Caiaphas?
    It appears that Church in Wales plc is looking for a Chief Operating Officer on a stipend of £94k pa to assist the self-styled Chief Executive from his hideout across the border in England.
    No money for additional clergy but plenty of room for expansion at the penthouse in Callaghan Square!
    Saggyoldclothcat

    ReplyDelete
  13. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DPV_UERtO_Us&ved=2ahUKEwiCjsPupbH7AhXOYcAKHdkKC_UQwqsBegQICxAE&usg=AOvVaw3eoPWuuuT1yOwUEXkBDKhT

    Anglican Unscripted latest, featuring Calvin Robinson.

    Please keep speaking out Calvin.

    ReplyDelete
  14. https://jobs.theguardian.com/job/8341235/chief-operating-officer-for-the-representative-body

    Assets of £1 billion.
    "You can be of any faith or none".

    ReplyDelete
  15. Many congratulations AB on reaching the landmark of 4 million views.
    Probably about 3.9 million more views than all the Church in Wales and Diocesan websites combined.
    Good for you, Sir.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Thank you for your kindness 1662.

      Delete
    2. Hear hear, 1662.
      Bravo, Ancient Briton.

      Delete
  16. One can only hope that the C-in-W's PR 'guru' Ms Anna Morrell has taken note of Ancient Briton's remarkable milestone ... and the reasons why an alternative voicepiece to counter all her 'rainbow' and 'silver lining' guff is so much in demand. Perhaps time for AB to have a permanent seat on the C-in-W's RB/Synod.

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  17. What a boost for the memberships of the Methodist, Baptist, Prebyterian etc. churches from our Chancellor today: Again 'Non-Doms' - presumably non-denominationals - evade paying higher taxes! Where can I join Baptist Trainfan?

    Old Bill

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  18. Er ... I don't think it works like that!

    Anyway the the Methodist, Baptist, Prebyterian etc. Churches ARE denominations (though we Baptists sometimes prefer to say that we are a "Connexion" as each congregation is theoretically independent).

    Of course there are genuine non-denominational churches around too.

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  19. Off message AD but I hope you'll excuse it.

    On this 'Autumn Statement Day' how the hungry, the penniless, disabled and pensioners shivering in their homes would like it better known that the Department of Culture, Media and Sport quango department The Church Commissioners have just nodded through an increase to funding of the CoE of £1.2 BILLION for 2023-2025 which even they proudly boast to be an 'all time high'. This represents +/- 20% of CoE expenditure. (For 2020-2022 gift/grant was £900 Million). It comes from the Charity Commission's £10.1 BILLION invested fund and a Registered Charity quango is thus tax-advantaged. This is 30% INCREASE of grants to the CoE over three years. The dosh, it says, will enable the Church of England to minister to youth and the 'disadvantaged'. Who says? Well the Government's appointed Second Commissioner, Old Etonian Andrew Selous MP, formerly Minister of Prisons and now spokesman on Government ££ financial support to the Established Church.

    The doubters will poo-poo this by saying its nothing to do with Government but oh yes it is. As First Lord of the Treasury who signed off Jeremy Hunt's budget, Riki Sunak is also a CC Commissioner (Hindu all be it !)

    As the membership of the CoE plummets, fewer churches are open and fewer priests to minister the remaining flock why on earth is Government not ear-marking its Church Commissioners to take the knocks like the rest of us. And I'm a Tory !!!!

    Read up ye all ... start with Hansard published debates.

    Ad Clerum


    ReplyDelete
  20. Thank you, Ad Clerum, for your post which I have no reason to doubt. However there may be another side to it: the fact that cash-strapped CofE churches and Dioceses have long complained that the CCs have been sitting on this huge wodge of cash rather than spending it. It would be interesting to know the CCs are seen by the Charity Commissioners as they can criticise bodies for holding on to too many assets instead of using them their charitable aims.

    Denominations such as mine can only marvel at these vast sums - we scrape by from year to year (although of course we do get some Government relief through Gift Aid and not having to pay business rates on church buildings).

    ReplyDelete
  21. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-63681472

    Some good news for today a change.
    Hopefully the people of Iran will deal with a few more Ayatollahs, the living ones.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. With any luck it will be Putin's dacha next week ๐Ÿ˜‚

      Delete
  22. Any one else 'surprised' by -June's retirement honours list???
    Unison Off

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    Replies
    1. Details please.

      Delete
    2. If you check 'Llandaff Matters ' , they are all on there. ๐Ÿ˜Š

      Unison Off

      Delete
  23. Gwent Plod still covering themselves in glory.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-63703621

    ReplyDelete
  24. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-63716864

    No confidence in Gwent Chief Constable or Police Commissioner.

    ReplyDelete
  25. First whinge of most critics of the British Police Service is that you never see them walking the beat. So why, Zebedee and others, insult and demean them by referring them to as 'Plods'? Would you so address them as 'Plods' if you had need to hit 999 in absolute fear or threat to yourself or family and they answer your call ... ?

    Old Bill

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    Replies
    1. If only they WOULD answer calls!
      The last time I called 999 for assistance they were too busy dealing with other emergencies. Trying 101 is equally useless because nobody even answers the phone.
      Trying to get an officer to attend a burglary is nigh on impossible and detection rates are in single figures.
      But there always seems to be plenty of resources available for responding to micro-aggressions on Facebook, Twitter or Instagram.
      As far as I am concerned and judging by my experiences of the last twenty years or so, "Plod" is entirely appropriate.

      Delete
    2. My experiences of the police service is by no means unique.
      From only four days ago.
      https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-63688097
      They made SIX '999' calls.
      Repeatedly let down by Plod.

      Delete
    3. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-63730325

      "Deep rot".

      Delete
    4. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-63684172

      Hundreds of officers should have been thrown out but can't be dismissed.
      Plod can't even deal with Plod.

      Delete
    5. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-63742970

      Three officers suspended.
      Offensive material.
      Evidence of corruption.

      More to follow no doubt.

      Delete
    6. Quicker than even I expected.
      https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-63750033

      Met officer now facing 53 charges.

      Delete
    7. Oh look, today it's a "super complaint" against the entire Police service of England and Wales.
      https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-63745857

      Only 5% of complaints to Plod result in charges being brought.

      Delete
    8. https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/stop-tweeting-and-get-on-with-the-job-police-told-d5g7cdvhb

      The headline says it all.
      Plod not fit for service.

      Delete
    9. Look.
      Another one.
      Oh dear.
      https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-shropshire-63812407

      Drunk.
      Rape.

      Delete
  26. Just wondering if that ' best person for the job ' bishopess is still on sick leave. ?
    Unison Off

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    Replies
    1. Oh I do hope so, she'll do less damage there.

      Delete
  27. Just wondering if minus June's chaplain has been made redundant?
    Unison Off

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Redundant from what?
      When the Capon was Bazza's Chaplain he did sod all, just as he did as Dean for eight years.
      The Bishop's office is full of admin staff and secretaries, so what does a Chaplain really do for a living?

      Delete
  28. Did anyone who watched +June's Farewell service notice that ++Bangor came in civvies, and that ++ Rowan dressed himself in a black Chimere.
    Cymro

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    Replies
    1. Caiaphas must go!24 December 2022 at 16:13

      Who cares as long as Caiaphas has slung her hook at last.

      Delete