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| St Woolos Cathedral, Newport, 'an oasis of quiet and peace' Source: South Wales Argus |
There is much to absorb in the Monmouth Enquiry Report: Report from the Review Panel.pdf
First things first.
In a Statement following the publication of the Report, the current bishop of Monmouth, Cherry Vann, writes:
"I am particularly pleased that the Report exonerates the current Archdeacon of Newport, Jonathan Williams, and the former Dean, Lister Tonge and the former Archdeacon of Monmouth, Ambrose Mason. I want to pay tribute to them and to the office staff, clergy and people of the diocese who continued faithfully with the work of Church whilst feeling left bereft and abandoned."
From the Church in Wales Monmouth Enquiry and Review Report: An Overview:
"The role of the Senior Diocesan Team. The Reviewers describe in detail the role played by three senior colleagues of the bishop. They conclude that throughout the investigatory period and immediate aftermath, they acted in good faith and responded properly to their concerns about and for the bishop. Their concerns were considered to have been well founded and they acted professionally in the way they reported these concerns. Moreover, throughout difficult investigations they maintained the confidentiality required of them and participated in good faith in the processes established, trusting that these processes were adequate and appropriate. This was particularly commendable when their reputations were being traduced and rumours circulated that the bishop’s absence was due to a breakdown in relationships between him and his senior team. These rumours included the belief that the senior team were looking for a way to oust him. The Reviewers do not believe that this was the case and were impressed that they have said so little publicly and have stoically borne false accusations."
Postscripts
[14.12.2021]
South Wales Argus report.
Church Times: "Review lists catalogue of errors in Monmouth and the Church in Wales."
[15.12.2021]
Western Mail (Pressreader), Martin Shipton: CHURCH IN WALES CULTURE CHANGE URGED
[21.12.2021]
Western Mail (Pressreader), Martin Shipton: Worshippers urge inquiry on leadership
[24.12.2021]
The bishop of Monmouth, Cherry Vann, addresses The Monmouth Enquiry and Review Report in her Christmas message 2021 on YouTube starting at position 2.35.
On p. 77: 'The prevalence of swearing and a excessive intake of alcohol by bishops and senior clergy was commented upon by several witnesses.' This is not the only reference to a booze culture.
ReplyDelete'...there was a wider issue about a "culture of entitlement" which went further than the Bench...'
'Inappropriate comments, jokes and language (frequently sexist) were said by some of those we interviewed to be commonplace'. (pp. 79-80).
'Perhaps also due to the overreliance on external lawyers, pastoral and practical concerns did not receive as much attention as they should.' (p. 86).
'Others found that staff within the RB were short-tempered because of the stress they were under, and relationships became strained' (p. 88).
I do not know enough about the backstory (and have no particular wish to know): the report is heavily redacted in places. However, the quotes above, and the many references in the extended narrative to backstairs intrigue, and politicking, will make it clear to many outsiders that this is a disfunctional institution.
One of the references to 'entitlement' notes that there is a shallow talent pool (as there is in the other British Anglican churches). What the Australians call 'mateship' seems to count for much.
I do wonder (although I appreciate this will be controversial), whether matters have com to such a pass that it might be worth reuniting the Church of England and the Church in Wales for administrative and financial purposes (so that both units benefit from being part of a larger risk pool), with the Church in Wales continuing as a separate pastoral unit and as a legal entity, but with the proviso that there can be no return to some of the 'colonialism' which afflicted the Church in Wales until the second half of the nineteenth century (a couple of recent appointments to the Welsh bench notwithstanding). I suspect that will never happen, of course.
I think that you have put your finger on many of the deficiencies mentioned in the Report (safeguarding is of course another significant area, not only because of the need to maintain appropriate boundaries but because some clergy are reportedly wary of safeguarding as they fear that it prevents them forming close pastoral relationships).
ReplyDeleteI doubt if your suggestion could "come to pass" for legal reasons, if no other; but it does seem to me as an outsider that the Anglican communities within the four countries of Britain could at least share clergy and resources to an extent, while of course recognising the very different contexts in which they operate. I found the Report very depressing although there does seem to be a bit of a "fresh wind" blowing in the Diocese now.
@Baptist Trainfan Your suggestion regarding shared resources is a very good one. In the contemporary business world, it is the Shared Services Company model, with non-core support services being shared by different subsidiaires who can then concentrate on their core / key activities.
DeleteThe on-going episcopal saga in Aberdeen, and the Llandaff saga which is coming to the boil, together with other recent cases in England all require the same specialized - and often expensive - expertise which is in limited supply. In the Church of England, there are already suggestions circulating about merging diocesan support teams, mainly to cut costs but also to increase the quality of processes and advice on offer.
There will always be a need to take into account the particular circumstances and context of each of the four independent Anglican churches in the British Isles if any such shared service approach is adopted. Local input and expertise will always be required. However what is very clear from the report is that the 'Prince.ss-Prelate' approach which appears to prevail in Wales is not just inappropriate but woefully inadequate.
It is now almost 10 years since the Harries Report on reform in the Church in Wales. To quote from the announcement still on-line (https://www.churchinwales.org.uk/en/publications/administration-and-business/Church_in_Wales_Review_2012/), "The September 2010 meeting of the Governing Body was notable for the number of contributions from members with a common message: “The Church in Wales cannot go on doing the same things in the same way; some things need to change and we are open to – and indeed encourage – that possibility”.
The Standing Committee and Bench of Bishops responded to this call by appointing an external review of the Church, with particular reference to its structures and use of resources, to increase the effectiveness of the Church’s ministry and witness."
The questions for the Bench of Bishops now are: Why has nothing changed since 2012?, and, Are you willing to change? Or in other words, Are you part of the problem, or are you part of the solution?
How many Bishops does it take to change a light bulb 💡?
Delete"Change? CHANGE?? WHAT THE F*%# DO YOU *MEAN* CHANGE???"
Alan, you make some good points. On the subject of the Harries Report, the only thing that changed was for those on the ground, i.e. misery areas. The Harries Report recommend three diocesan offices - we still have six. It recommended reducing the number of plank sitters - we still have six. The plank sitters have added more archdemons to the ranks of managers. The plank sitters do not want anything to change that will affect their kudos. There has been ample opportunity to implement the Harries Report at a higher level when Barry Morgan, Wyn Evans, Richard Pain and John Davies retired. However, the plank sitters carry on regardless.
DeleteWhat the Monmouth Report shows is how inept the CiW is. It also shows how the psyche at plank sitter level is save the institution, and if that means throwing others under the bus, then so be it. So much for their Christianity. There isn't one person from the Arch plank sitter down who comes out well in this. No wonder Shirley retired as quickly as he could before this report was published.
Seymour
The irony is the Bench appear to think they are playing a Game of Episcopal Thrones; whereas in fact they are just rearranging the deckchairs whilst the constantly diminishing band continues to play.
DeleteLaughing Gas has hit the nail on the head.
DeletePlank sitters in Wales voting for change is equivalent to asking Turkeys to vote for Christmas.
Change will have to be forced on them and the ONLY way to achieve that is to stop your giving and persuade everyone else to do likewise.
I'm not sure that the Dean and Archdeacons emerge well from this to the extent the paragraphs above infer. The report is certainly critical of an earlier report in which the D&A were singled out for cticism, but the report is rather wobbly in places since it also states that the D&A had concerns well before "Alex's" disclosures and were merely supporting those disclosures as an example of the Bishop's temperament.This is but a short step from saying that the D&A needed a bullet to fire and Alex kindly provided that. Whichever way you look at this whilst there are lapses in procedure and professionalism you get the strong sense of feeling that with the characters described in the report on your team, who needs enemies!!
ReplyDelete'The prevalence of swearing and a excessive intake of alcohol by bishops and senior clergy was commented upon by several witnesses.'
ReplyDeleteHave the several "witnesses" never attended a Llandaff Cathedral Chapter annual lunch?
In the halcyon days (before political correctness, wokeism, snowflakes and the cancel culture) there was enough booze available to sink a battleship and it was a jolly poor show if you didn't get a few dirty jokes from the assembled senior clerics, not to mention downright boring.
Has everyone already forgotten Bonaparte storming out of Chapter meetings, huffing, puffing, effing and blinding about his Chapter colleagues?
"Culture of entitlement"?
How does anyone imagine the existing dud in the Llandaff Deanery got away with having his Aga installed at his Parishioners' expense?
There's nothing new here, just more of the same old same old.
It's business as usual but evidence that the swamp has spread far beyond Llandaff.
If you want it to change, just stop your giving.
Read the report twice this morning.
DeleteThree points I noted.
The alleged "prevalence of swearing" and "excessive use of alcohol" commented upon "by several witnesses" was also commented upon by +Richard Pain.
The allegations weren't just limited to +Richard Pain but WERE directed at "bishops [plural] and senior clergy".
The report omits any mention of ANYONE denying the reports by "several witnesses" as well as +Richard Pain.
The only logical conclusion I can reach is that, IF indeed +Richard Pain has/had an alcohol problem, he was/is by no means alone and all the others are still living in glass houses.
It's time to introduce compulsory and random alcohol and drug testing for the clergy.
If it's good enough for our armed forces, police, ambulance lorry and coach drivers then it shouldn't be a problem for the upstanding pillars of our community in dog collars.
PP. Although I have a view of the investigation into this very sad time in the Diocese, it is without doubt a scathing result on the CiW. It is so obvious that the current Bishop has spent a considerable time providing pastoral care, support and leadership. Not an easy task, but one the she has done with a real passion for the church. Much respect goes to her from the majority of her diocese.
ReplyDeleteBut what Strike's at the heart of investigation, the large redacted paragraphs do not show transparency. Perhaps,it is to save embarrassment to those involved.
Hopefully the new AB will heed the details we know and that we don't. What is clear is it's a warning that certain sends shock waves wider than the Diocese of Monmouth
Many of the pictures of clergy at the Llandaff Santiago de Compostela pilgrimage show them enjoying glasses of wine. I don't decry this at all, but there is an optics issue here - they were away with work and most organisations (not least the one I work for) don't encourage the mixing of alcohol with work whatsoever. I suspect a number of clergy struggle with mild/moderate alcohol dependency and I welcome the report's suggestion that the Church in Wales look further at this. I hope the Church does so supportively rather than accusatively. The report suggests that +Richard might have been helped in this regard. For many,the situation has worsened during this pandemic. I wonder how we might best address it.
ReplyDeleteRuthy
You could start your investigations by looking into the Capon's soirées of pink gins and rum pansies at the Llandaff Deanery.
DeleteI was being serious boy sensationalist laughing gas. Time and place. Time and place.
DeleteRuthy
So was I.
DeleteEspecially since it appears that his Parishioners were unwittingly footing the bill for his lavish "entertainment" budget he awarded himself.
Dear God in heaven, what a mess.
ReplyDeleteAfter 101 years, one would think that *someone* somewhere at the top of the Church in Wales would have a basic idea of how to conduct themselves and Church business professionally, correctly and with decorum.
Even in its redacted form, this is a damning indictment of just about all those involved and confirms what many have suspected for decades - the Church in Wales is a shambles.
A lack of appropriate policies and procedures (no 'Dignity At Work' in the Church of all places!), poor implementation of policies and procedures, a defective Constitution, obvious conflicts of interest, poor communications, a lack of pastoral care, poor/non-existing safeguarding, bad advice, unnecessary and unexplained delays, poor decision making, mis-directed/inadequate resources, poor/non-existent communication policies, inadequate record keeping etc.
All resulting in another extensive/expensive list of "recommendations".
Does anyone have any notion of how much this report has cost?
Or how much the recommended "amelioration" to various parties might cost the pew-sitters?
Will it remain largely ignored like so many other reports?
Why no timescales for the implementation of the recommendations?
While individuals have been exonerated, the institution has been exposed as a relic of a bye-gone era with a less than spiritual culture. Those at the top can apologise all they want as they spend exorbitent amounts of money on reports, its ringing hollow now.
ReplyDeleteWHAMAB
PP. Having read in greater detail the details of the report. I find it unbelievable that an institution does not have even the robust basic policies and procedures that are mandatory for charity status.
ReplyDeleteIt is now more obvious why the Bishop of Llandaff has been so heavy handed. No wonder the +Jo was so poorly handled - no policy for it! The new AB has a huge task, I so hope he is up to the battle ahead.
What a wake up call to all communicants, can we really sit back and let this go, for more of the same.
The one phrase in the report that really shows the indignation towards the Church is the comment by the former Bishop to the Provincial Secretary " I want a decent pay off" or similar phrasing. Surely this has never been agreed?
Just noticed clue in today's Times crossword: Message about church is creating ruptures. An apt description of the Monmouth report, methinks. The answer, since you ask, is schisms.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-59645155
ReplyDeleteNew Archbishop apologises.....
That's all very well but now the Caiaphas v Capon Aga Saga is still bubbling away nicely.
Let's see what, in any, lessons have been learned.
According to the Monmouth Enquiry and Review: Report from the Review Panel (James, Herklots and Russell, 2021):
ReplyDelete"[i]t is clear in the current Constitution of the Church in Wales that if a case concerning a diocesan bishop is referred to the Disciplinary Tribunal, suspension may follow until the hearing takes place and determination of the case is made (Con. IX.17(a)). Suspension is also a possible censure (IX.18(g))" (p. 73).
The Report beings to the foreground the conduct duplicitous of the Bishops of the Church in Wales in avoiding appearing before the Disciplinary Tribunal of the Church in Wales, for example, the Bishop of Llandaff referring the Dean of Llandaff to the Provincial Disciplinary Tribunal of the Church in Wales, and therefore, suspending him from clerical duties, and the Dean of Llandaff referring the Bishop of Llandaff to the Disciplinary Tribunal of the Church in Wales for bullying, but the Bishop of Llandaff continuing in office, and therefore, avoiding suspension.
You might recall that a similar situation arose in 2008 regarding the conduct +Carl Cooper, Saint David’s. Cooper chose to accept an ex gratia award and resign, as opposed to appearing before the Disciplinary Tribunal of the Church in Wales. Had Cooper appeared before the tribunal, then he most certainly would have been deposed from Episcopal Orders. I believe the intelligent question relates to the reason(s) for +June Osborne avoiding suspension from episcopal duties, given that “the preliminary adjudication confirmed in May 2021 that, on the balance of probability, Bishop June Osborne has a case to answer” (Shipton, 2021, Bishop accused of bullying by Dean of Llandaff, South Wales Echo, 15 November)?
If Caiaphas had been suspended as you describe, then the sham election of Randy Pandy as Archbishop would have been further delayed.
DeleteThis alone was probably enough of an excuse to avoid her being suspended.
Likewise DodoJo in St. Davids.
The swamp covers the entire Principality.
It's incredible to me that the scandal and repetitional damaged caused by +Joanna has not been referred to the disciplinary tribunal. Could not +Andy's failure to do so be considered misconduct in its own right? Why does he have an arbitrary right to refer or not to refer. It's all vested interests and politics nothing to do with forgiveness and redemption. This all fails the 'smell test' as George Congar says on Anglican Unscripted. The Bench's reputation is in the gutter at the moment.
ReplyDeleteWHAMAB
ADMIN NOTE
ReplyDeleteSome commentators have made some interesting comments which have not been published because they have been submitted anonymously without a pseudonym.
'Anonymous' comments for publication must include a pseudonym.
I gather that most of the St Davids clergy who were consulted about their bishop expressed strong dissatisfaction with her. Yet what has she done? Clung on to her job for dear life.
ReplyDeleteRob
PP. With three bishops having CofE experience of senior leadership, of "how" legitimate governance should be conducted. One would hope that they alone could not in all honesty condone, collaborate in such a level of grade one incompetence. But, they came to CiW did they not know how dire the province was?
ReplyDeleteIf we go backwards, when did the rot start? Was the same in +Alwyn, +Rowan days as AB? Or does it go further back? We cannot blame women's ordination for this, as the besetting sin is simply governance, someone had to start the process? Was it the complacent RB or the laid back GB? Whose door does this fallout start? That's were the tangles are and need to be unravelled. If the ++Andrew, has any real scruples, he will open the door and let the light in with far reaching change which involves everyone, not just the bench. Another commission, enquiry, will not help. The Monmouth report has enough recommendation to keep the bench, RB busy for sometime. Praying that the bench take heed, act and repair our reputation.
Ask the three 'having CofE experience' if they're still running unaudited discretionary funds in their Dioceses.
DeleteThe Church of England reportedly did away with them years ago.
The report makes the point that with six dioceses CIW does not have sufficient talent to properly man them. We are long past the time to reduce to three diocese which will give a far more efficient organisation and considerable economic advantages. The report also indicates to me that an Archiepiscopal see would be a major advantage in the leading of the CIW. That has to be in Llandaff along side the national government and with suitable accommodation to house the necessary support staff for the Archbishop which appeared to have been lacking during recent events.
ReplyDeleteTicker
There'll soon be more staff and desk bound priests than there are pew sitters! Can somebody explain to me why we need a full time 'Press Officer' ? And, what, pray, is her salary ?
ReplyDeleteContented of Cardiff
Are you referring to the RB's press officer or those of the various Dioceses?
DeleteIf you added up the number of staff at the RB to the numbers of staff at the Diocesan Boards of Finance then included the Bishop's Chaplains, PAs and secretaries as well as all other admin staff at the Cathedrals and Misery areas, what number do you get?
DeleteI suspect the ratio of pen-pushers and hangers-on to clergy won't be far off 1 : 4.
Sorry, that should have been Support Staff.
ReplyDeleteC of C
The boozing and foul-mouthed bishops of the Church in Wales - "[n]ame them, brothers, name them", to cite the hymn!
ReplyDeletePP. An Archbishop's See with support staff that would only add more bureaucracy. 3 sees would not work either,but, 3 See and 3 suffragan areas might? The fall out in Leeds gives clear foundation for caution.
ReplyDeletePerhaps shared resources would be better placed, a slim down diocesan office, one press officer two education leads shared over 2or3 dioceses etc. The bishops chaplain role could be better organised to be more like those in most English dioceses.
The AB role just needs a PA and Chaplain, it's not a blown up administration.Its not a full time role, otherwise we're would their diocese sit? The Llandaff model and the Harris report came to nothing. The CiW like it or not, is not the State Church like England therefore, like other denominations in Wales reorganization of one form or another is needed - unless it gets a serious grasp on its evangelism strategy and gets more pew sitters. Has anyone grasped the virtual/internet church model? No! Other denominations are making in-roads why not CiW TV? I'm sure S4C would relish help sort that. Modern age demands new methods of doing church, but surely adding more administration is not fixing the problems, neither is a reductionist strategy perhaps a stipend review and lay salary review might be in order. Some are eye watering, their is hardly comparison across the province in lay roles.
And a serious look at the huge RB costs at Callahan Square, it's just not sustainable! Surely a former Church building could have been remodeled at a much less cost. Then their are the new/empty (Costalotta 4 Kathy) deanery issue at Bangor, the Llandaff issue, what is it going to cost to pay off the Dean? Or anyone in that toxic mix? Why is the pay off to the former +Richard not known or the former +Carl. What we are seeing is a charity way out of control? Surely clergy and laity must demand better stewardship of "our" church's assets?
Why can't the plank sitters be reduced to three, PP? The Roman Catholics have three bishops covering a much larger area. The Archdiocese of Cardiff covers an area which takes in the Anglican Dioceses of Llandaff, Monmouth, Hereford and parts of Swansea and Brecon. The current Archbishop of Cardiff is also looking after the Diocese of Menevia at present. In other words, one man is doing the work of five Anglican bishops.
DeleteSeymour
PP. I don't disagree with you. However the Roman Sees have less Churches, minimal administration and in parts much larger congregations. But still face the mission area grouping of parishes. My cousin is a PP in NW with 7 Churches. He hardly has any input from his bishop who basically is the last stop, episcopal function provider, he has more to do with the Vicar General.
DeleteI don't disagree Wales has a huge problem and the current system as you and others have stated is like "setting deck chairs on the Titanic".
The best thing is to compare ‘like with like’. Once again, from a business perspective, this allows the comparing of Best Practice.
DeleteThe CiW has approx. 20,000 regular worshipping members and 6 bishops, of which 1 is the Archbishop. The Scottish Episcopal Church (SEC) had just under 28,000 worshipping members in 2019 (according to Wikipedia) and 7 bishops, of which 1 is the Primus (Archbishop).
The SEC does not have archdeacons. The Dean of each diocese assists the bishop in the customary archdeacon role, and is not exclusively responsible for the the cathedral. Anglican archdeacons hold responsibility for clergy discipline & building oversite. With less clergy in Wales, and less buildings in active use (and some sold), why there needs to be more archdeacons is not clear. It looks very much like ‘all chiefs and no indians’.
The SEC has generally steered clear of the sorts of problems the CiW encounters on a fairly regular basis. The current problem in Aberdeen involves a liberal bishop imposed by the other bishops on a traditional diocese, and moreover, a person already rejected for episcopal orders in the CofE as unsuitable (according to a discussion thread on Thinking Anglicans).
The SEC does have a variety of policy documents, voted on by their General Synod. It is worth taking a good look around this link. https://www.scotland.anglican.org/who-we-are/organisation/ The documents may not be perfect, but they do have the merit of existing and being readily available. Discussion in Synod debates is not ‘written out’ when reports are published, as you will see. Whilst the Scottish bishops generally seem to share the same direction of ecclesiastical travel as the Welsh bishops, they at least acknowledge those who do not agree.
If the bishops, and/or the Governing Body, are serious about putting the CiW in order, then 'Shared Services' & Best Practice exercices (and not just with SEC) are the way to go.
It's interesting that the Review states that "When the Bishop of Swansea and Brecon was elected as Archbishop of Wales in 2017, he decided not to increase the staff already in his office, and so has exercised both his ministry as Archbishop and his continuing diocesan ministry with only a PA to assist him" and "In an age in which the number of bishops and the growth of diocesan staff has come under considerable criticism, the frugality and spareness of this approach has won attention and admiration". However the net result was that "some Representative Body staff, especially the Provincial Secretary, found themselves giving a great deal of time to both advising and supporting the Archbishop over several months, sometimes in ways more appropriate to a role as a member of the Archbishop’s personal staff" and that this may have hindered rather than helped the enquiries into what was happening at Monmouth. Clearly you can have too few, as well as too many, staff!
ReplyDeleteIf the Provincial Secretary and RB staff were kept busy over the Bishop of Monmouth debacle, just imagine how busy they are currently, trying to deal with the Capon and Caiaphas scandals?
DeleteIf the relationship between Richard Pain and sister Lister became difficult and untenable, how are they dealing with the gangrenous situation between the pair Llandaff clowns?
I wonder if some incompetent fool has suggested a process of "mediation" there too?
Might be able to sell ringside seats for that exercise in futility.
INITIAL REFLECTIONS (1)
ReplyDeleteApart from the whole saga reading like an excruciating analysis of a multiple vehicle pile-up in slow motion, this report tells us much about how the culture of the Church in Wales is mired by incompetence and toxicity at all levels. It is also a damning indictment of the cavalier culture of self-interest that was allowed to flourish among the bishops on Barry Morgan’s watch. This appears to have seamlessly continued into the brief John Davies era. Anyone who imagines that there could be significant change with Andrew John as Archbishop is simply hoping for too much because (a) he is a product of that culture; and (b) a contributor to it. Anyone who has sat around the senior staff table in Bangor since, say, 2012 will know that many of the ‘dignity in the workplace’ issues raised in this report were being played-out as Bishop, Dean, Diocesan Secretary and at least one Archdeacon routinely spoke of clergy colleagues in that Diocese in derisory and diminishing terms, based on little more than gossip, conjecture and prejudice; viewing them as disposable commodities; and colluding with a culture of bullying which later came back to bite the Bishop (all conveniently hidden under one of many now-discredited non-disclosure agreements in the Church in Wales so favoured by Barry Morgan).
After an initial read, the report highlights a number of immediate issues that give cause for concern.
1. The Bench of Bishops continues to be divided. At one level, that could be positive if it dissolves the cosy ‘closed club’ mentality, encourages greater questioning of the prevailing culture and the belief that bishops are beyond accountability. But it hardly reassures clergy at the coal face (and those they serve) that the leadership of the Church in Wales is, somehow, currently fit for purpose.
2. The report identifies the diminishing talent pool of suitable candidates for senior appointments within the Church in Wales. That is certainly true. But it does not address two issues. First, the ‘brain drain’ that has been frequently identified (notably from the Diocese of Bangor in the first half-decade of Andrew John’s episcopate) and how several other theologically-astute and pastorally- attuned clergy from other dioceses have been lost to the Province. Instead, throughout the first decade or so of this Millennium, the criteria seems to have been that preferment came to those who would not rock Barry Morgan’s boat and adhere unquestioningly to the rules of the ‘club’ – even if it meant sacrificing their own integrity. Second, those bishops (and other senior clergy) that have been imported from the Church of England are those who have failed to gain preferment in the two English provinces. The impression that Wales has ended up with England’s rejects hardly inspires confidence that there is a desire for excellence in leadership the Welsh Province.
3. The culture of opacity that has been promoted within the Bench of Bishops has led to a top-down mentality that has certainly deskilled, if not alienated, many. It has undoubtedly been a contributor to low morale among clergy, especially in those dioceses where the parochial system is being dismantled. Andrew John’s ‘no crisis here’ interview in last week’s Church Times is just one symptom of a head-in-the-sand authoritarianism among the bishops. The same is true of the situation in Cardiff and the Bishop of Llandaff’s inability to lead by creating consensus.
INITIAL REFLECTIONS (2)
ReplyDelete4. I was struck by how the Bishop of St Asaph emerged as being sufficiently intellectually robust to identify and address the questions that the other bishops seemed only too willing to ignore or to accept partial aspects of the narrative at face value. His capacity to scrutinise and identifying the underlying flaws of the process should not be ignored, nor his willingness to pursue them.
5. The recommendation that the Bench of Bishops ‘reflects collectively on this whole report and considers the cultural challenges to its life, values and ethos and that of the wider Church in Wales’ is beyond the collective competence and capability of the current Bench. Certainly, it would require some external person(s) of sufficient intellectual, psychological and spiritual depth to drive the process on behalf of the bishops – and hold them to account. At present, I doubt whether there is sufficient confidence across the Province in the collective integrity of the Bench. It is, in effect, asking them to self-regulate and that has proved, time and again, to be completely inadequate in other spheres of public life.
6. It is time for the clergy and laity of the Governing Body (and the diocesan conferences) to speak with a clear voice about its dissatisfaction with the current collective quality of episcopal leadership in the Church in Wales, the lack of accountability and the general culture of impenetrability that often subsists across the bureaucracy of the Church in Wales. Readers of this blog will be familiar with the evolving situation in the Diocese of Winchester and should consider whether the time is right to demand fundamental reform of the basis on which the Province and the dioceses are governed, the recommendation of this report (e.g. regarding synodality) notwithstanding. In particular, it should be involved at the earliest stages in any proposals for a system of MDR for bishops and should insist on the involvement of reviewers from outside the Province, both to avoid conflicts of interest and ensure transparency.
Thank you for the trenchant and focussed analysis, PiP. Related to what you have correctly identified is this, from a recent paper by the Dean of Christ Church, Oxford.
Delete"Annual clergy appraisals were introduced many moons ago, and they are part and parcel of a very long game. As the Church of England struggles to explain itself as a public, transparent and accountable utility in the modern world, it resorts to – ‘magpie-like’ – picking up shiny concepts and phrases that it thinks will make it look like other kinds of organisation. It does so in the hope that if the world recognises the currency of these concepts and terms generally, the church will be less ‘other’, and remain accessible and perhaps maintain its plausibility.
Of course, this does not work. Not for a moment. For a start, the things the magpie-like church picks up tend to have been cast away ages ago. I recall reading extracts of the Green Report to a gathering of University Business School lecturers and professors. After the first paragraph – read, I might add, sincerely – the audience began to chuckle, and by the time I’d read the third extract, they were laughing.
They saw immediately that the language of the report was out of date by about 25 years. Likewise, in another similar gathering in a different university, there was a similar reaction to the language of vision, strategy, aims, objectives, outcomes, SMART targets and other metrics.
Both audiences were uncomprehending of the church at these points, and on two counts. First, the dated concepts in use, which academics and practitioners had set aside decades ago. Second, how, in any case, could such concepts ever be a ‘fit’ for an institution such as the church?"
It rather lends weight to your observation that allowing the Bench of Bishops to self-regulate will get us nowhere, principally because they have no idea about how things work in the 'real world.'
I am weary of hearing the word ‘skillset ‘ coming from certain quarters. Is there such a word/2words. Is it beng used to get allies working together and to get rid of those who might question things?
DeleteConey Beach.
I may be late to this party, but I am struck by what Primus inter Pares offers in this analysis. It is sufficiently damning as to leave me in no doubt that the whole Bench should resign. If this report described a charitable body or indeed a non-governmental organisation (CAFOD, Christian Aid, Oxfam or Amnesty International, for example) only the resignation of the board of trustees would suffice if the organisation were to have any public crediblity going forward.
DeleteIt is time for this ecclesiastical cabal to show leadership and integrity for sake of the common good. Certainly, the new Archbishop has very little credibility and can never take matters forward in a decisive way. As has already been said, he is both a product of the festering culture and a contributor to it. I would also say that he lacks both the intellectual and strategic capacity to achieve what is clearly needed.
If the rank and file clergy of the Church in Wales, and the laity who support the Church through their generous giving, are not preapred to stand up and be counted, may be it is time to call in the charity commissioners?
One suspects you will be disappointed by the Charity Commissioners too Michael.
DeleteDavid Jones and David Lambert referred entirely valid concerns to them about the Llandaff Cathedral Organ Appeal. The Commissioners proved to be utterly ineffective, were fobbed off by a letter from the present Dean that was entirely fallacious and took it all at face value.
Fast forward a couple of years and the new lay Chapter discover the Dean has seemingly had his hand in the plate to the tune of almost £70k. The published accounts state that the Charity Commissioners have been involved.
With the Dean's credibility in tatters have they reopened the Organ appeal investigation?
One suggests you don't hold your breath.
@Primus inter Pares
DeleteMultiple issues of "Dignity in the workplace" were raised by an assistant Organist and many of the Lay Clerks at Llandaff Cathedral throughout 2012, including the failure to provide terms and conditions and contracts of employment.
The incompetent Cathedral Administration and Chapter failed repeatedly to address the issues which resulted in four lay Clerks launching an Employment Tribunal in sheer desperation and as a last resort.
No sooner had byzantine --Barry been told he was going to lose the case, he sacked the Cathedral's lawyers and instructed Peggy "the taxman will never know" Pilate to make the entire back row redundant as a means of getting rid of the Lay Clerks who had first requested and then demanded some "Dignity in the work place".
He also involved his own daughter Lucy to provide him with HR advice, but no conflict of interest or breaches of Data Protection there you understand.
The premise for the wholesale redundancies was that the Cathedral couldn't afford to pay 6 Lay Clerks £3,500 per annum each. (This was another lie because the Cathedral had just banked over £200k from the residue of the sale of one of it's properties).
But --Bazza and Peggy" there's more than one way to skin a cat" Pilate have never let an inconvenient truth stop them.
After a year of boys only singing and the disappearance of Richard Moorhouse (only months after he'd received the Archbishop of Wales' Award for Music no less!), the Lay Clerks were replaced with a bunch of amateurs and students all on zero hours contracts with no sick pay, no holiday pay, no pensions and no employment rights.
That remains the case to this day.
Dignity in the workplace in the Church in Wales? You must be joking.
The true scandal is that the Church in Wales has been through a similar situation before and the lessons weren't learned then.
ReplyDeleteAfter Eryl Thomas was translated from Monmouth to Llandaff it wasn't too long after that that he was caught cottaging in Gents toilets of local parks.
This occurred more than once but a lid was kept on the can of worms with the assistance of a very senior Cardiff police officer who also happened to be a congregant at Llandaff Cathedral.
Before too long, Eryl was caught again and realising that he couldn't keep the cover-up going indefinitely, the senior Police officer made a report to the then Archbishop informing him of Eryl's misconduct along with a request that the Archbishop impose some discipline on Eryl and get him to stop.
At a meeting with the Archbishop, Eryl was confronted with the evidence and instructed by the Archbishop to amend his ways or face the consequences of being caught again.
Eryl's response was to tell the Archbishop to get stuffed and that Eryl intended to continue as he pleased because he was the ultimate authority in his Diocese and the Archbishop could not interfere.
Inevitably, Eryl got caught cottaging again and this time the senior Police officer couldn't or wouldn't cover it up again which resulted in the scandal becoming public knowledge in the Autumn of 1974 (if memory serves).
The gaps identified in the Constitution, identified by the latest Bishop of Monmouth report, concerning the inability of the Archbishop to suspend a fellow Bishop have been apparent for at least 47 years and nothing was done about it.
The same culture of indifference towards those who raise concerns, in good faith, continues.
One only has to consider the response from the Deans, Chapters and Bishops of Llandaff towards anyone who has raised concerns / complaints about the Organ appeal and the lack of accounts.
The responses from the Capon and Caiaphas, towards David Lambert and David Jones in particular, are text book examples.
The facts that one was a Diocesan Registrar and Chapter Clerk while the other was a financier and the Organ Appeal Secretary (with between them over a century of loyal service to the Cathedral, Diocese and CinW) counted for naught.
The two Davids tried to use the internal processes and procedures to raise their concerns and complaints and were essentially fobbed off.
As a final resort they referred the matter to the Charity Commissioners, who themselves were fobbed off by the letter from Capon.
To expect any change of culture from the Church in Wales swamp is utterly futile.
Especially with Randy Pandy at the helm for the foreseeable future.
DeleteStop all giving and bequests.
I might well be wrong, but as I understand the SEC, Deans are the equivalent of what is in other Anglican churches an Archdeacon and has nothing to do with the running of a cathedral. The PROVOST is the head of the cathedral chapter.
ReplyDelete@MO I think you are right, and it was my mistaken reading / description which is wrong. Thanks for clarifying.
DeleteNonetheless why each Welsh diocese needs 3 Archdeacons remains unclear. The CofE is also going top-heavy on archdeacons / asst archdeacons / full-time area deans. None of it resolves basic problems of increasing congregational numbers, as fewer parish clergy are appointed to compensate for the new middle-managers (of less and less...).
It is typical of an organisation in terminal decline.
DeleteHitler did it at Stalingrad.
Keep promoting people beyond their abilities whilst not providing enough troops to get the job done.
Textbook symptoms of futile efforts to delay the inevitable whilst pretending that all is rosy in the garden to fool the decreasing number of believers who are footing the bill.
S & B does not have 3 Archdeacons
DeleteLlechryd
Don’t worry Llechryd, St Davids make up the difference by having 4!
DeleteAJ
There's nowhere near 20,000 still going to church on a Sunday in Wales.
ReplyDeleteRather like the communicant numbers in Llandaff, the RB has stopped publishing the numbers to save blushes and to try and cover up the true extent of the decay and decline.
Nothing will change unless and until they're all thrown out of the Temple.
There are some Lessons to be Learnt here: http://liturgicalnotes.blogspot.com/2021/12/eusebii-eusebii.html. For "Arian" read "Latitudinarian", perhaps.
ReplyDeletePP. In Monmouth the 3 Archdeacon post are half time doubling with other responsibilities,(Mission, Ministry and Bishop's Chaplain) which if separate would add 3 more clerics and stipends. So basically Monmouth has 1.5 Archdeacons. Area/Rural Dean's will be out shortly, with Mission Area Leads basically Rectorial Benefice lead.With one PCC for that Area for however number of Churches!
ReplyDeleteIn Llandaff I thought the Morganwg AD was suspended?
Just think back to pre 1920s when there were full churches, more buildings, more clergy, slower transportation and snail mail. One diocese, Llandaff, with two Archdeacons - Llandaff and Monmouth ! No assistant bishop and the bishop of Llandaff a member of The House of Lords. Speaks volumes of the self perpetuating bunch of loons we have in these times!
ReplyDeleteThe good old days..., when the 10 Commandments and the 39 Articles meant something..., when true morals existed and no-one was afraid to call a spade a spade.
DeleteMany thanks. Don't forget that before 1844 the Llandaff diocese had only one archdeaconry, and before 1840 there was no dean of Llandaff: the archdeacon was the head of the cathedral as well (and until 1843 the dean and archdeacon were the same person).
Deletehttps://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-59686355
ReplyDeleteHonest, truthful and willing to apologise.
The Church in Wales is screwed.
Posted by Cymraes yn Lloegr
ReplyDeleteHot off the press Church Times letters
‘Spiritual wasteland’ at Llandaff Cathedral
From Dr Nicholas Mason and 22 others
Sir, — In the Church Times (News, 26 November), the Dean of Llandaff, the Very Revd Gerwyn Capon, revealed his treatment at the hands of the Bishop of Llandaff, the Rt Revd June Osborne, and the Cathedral Chapter. That experience has been shared by us as members of the cathedral congregation.
In April this year, concerned for the well-being of the Dean and the Christian community in Llandaff, 32 members of the congregation wrote to Chapter seeking clarification of issues relating to the running of the cathedral. It was requested that they be addressed at the forthcoming annual vestry meeting (AVM).
At the AVM, held in the cathedral, one of the signatories of the letter, wrongly assumed by Chapter to be its author, was asked to read the letter to the AVM. He agreed, and was then singled out for specific criticism in Chapter’s response. The concerns of the 32 signatories were contemptuously dismissed with phrases such as “keyboard warriors” and “barrack-room lawyers”. The four ordained members of Chapter who were present made no attempt to intervene.
Because of the failure to address the questions raised at the AVM, a further letter was sent, signed by 39 members of the congregation. This also expressed grave concerns about the behaviour of the vice-chair of Chapter, who had delivered Chapter’s response at the AVM. The signatories felt that the manner and tone of his delivery had no place in a church. Chapter’s written reply offered no clarification of the questions asked, and concerns about the behaviour of the vice-chair received no answer.
Subsequent to this, the individual singled out for criticism at the AVM submitted a formal complaint that the behaviour of Chapter represented a failure to uphold Christian values and breached the Church in Wales Bullying and Harassment Policy. In her response, Bishop Osborne decided that there was no arguable case of misconduct by Chapter or any of its members. She went on to state that Chapter’s response to the original letter was, instead, “robust and powerful and left no doubt as to the hurt and displeasure” (a very revealing choice of word) that had been experienced by Chapter.
Contrary to the view of the 39 signatories of the second letter, Bishop Osborne felt that Chapter’s response “gained in impact” by the manner of the vice-chair’s delivery. She stated that the original letter was ill judged, and that the presumed criticism that it contained “of persons of high reputation within the Church and without” merited an equally robust rebuttal.
We would reply to Bishop Osborne that, in view of all that has come to light in recent weeks about the behaviour of Chapter towards the Dean, and the complete absence of understanding or compassion in any of the correspondence that we have received from them, that not only were the concerns of the signatories of the letters justified, but that the situation in the diocese of Llandaff is far worse than any us of had imagined.
We are at a loss to understand how it has come to this, and grieve that we are left with no alternative but to draw attention publicly to our experience. When the individual who complained to Bishop Osborne was told that he would have no right of appeal, and when Bishop Osborne and Chapter repeatedly attempt to pass off their behaviour as consistent with the gospel, what other choice do we have? We grieve that the sanctuary of the Cathedral has been turned into a spiritual wasteland in which pastoral sensitivity has been replaced by managerial authoritarianism, and where reputation and power matter more than the gospel and truth.
continued
ReplyDeleteWe are writing to the newly elected Archbishop of Wales to ask him to institute a comprehensive, transparent, and fully independent inquiry (i.e. from outside of the Church in Wales) into the senior leadership of Llandaff diocese since the appointment of Bishop Osborne. And we call on the Anglican Church to pray for the healing of the Christian community in Llandaff Cathedral, that it may once again be a place where the love of our crucified and risen Lord is lived out in holiness and peace.
NICHOLAS MASON, GEOFF BARTON-GREENWOOD, JENNY BARTON-GREENWOOD, DAVID DAVIES, PETER DAVIES, SUSANNA DAVIES, MICHAEL GRENSTED, DIANNE GRIFFITHS, MIKE GRIFFITHS, MYRA JENKINS, EMMA MASON, CALAN MCGREEVY, MALCOLM MCGREEVY, GEOFF MORGAN, GWENDRAETH MORGAN, HELEN MORGAN, TIM MORGAN, JOHN POCKETT, TIMOTHY RUDGE, MONICA STEPHENS, ROBERT STEPHENS, CRAIG WILLIAMS, MATTHEW WILLIAMS
c/o 15 Kyveilog Street
Cardiff CF11 9JA
in two parts
Cymraes yn Lloegr
The 23 signatories don't represent the majority of the Christian community in Llandaff.
DeleteThe last time I bothered to check (several years ago) there were some 500 people on the electoral roll at Llandaff Cathedral.
Assuming the numbers have continued to decline in line with the losses to the Church in Wales as a whole, by now that could be as few as 400.
23 out of 400 is less than 6%.
Presumably the other 94% disagree with Nick Mason or are indifferent to the alleged goings-on.
It is significant that none of those on the receiving end of the Capon's poison pen letters are signatories.
The reduction of 32 to 23 signatures also suggests nine people have changed their minds following the Aga saga revelations.
"Managerial authoritarianism". Barry Morgan's middle names.
DeleteHis standard operating procedure since he darkened Llandaff with his presence.
In comparison to Darth Insidious Juno is a rank amateur.
Good point Llandaff Pewster. Also the signatories are almost entirely "Cathedral" people, not members of the "Parish" congregation at Llandaff (which is much larger these days).
DeleteMind you, Capon never cared much about the Parish, evidenced by his lack of pastoral care for people outside the antiques trade or those who regularly dine at Porros. It strikes me there's a lot of Llandaff churchgoers who barely glimpsed the Dean even before his extended sick leave. That number continues to grow!
I've come to pity Capon, rather as Frodo pitied Gollum in 'Lord of the Rings'. Both are small, twisted creatures obsessed by their love of shiny things and serving a dark lord who pulls their strings. Of course Gollum eventually causes Sauron's downfall when he falls to his doom. I wonder if the parallel will extend to Capon?
Strange to note that the names of the slimy amphibian Mr Toad and Dick the server are also missing from the list.
DeletePerhaps the rumours of a falling out between the Capon and Mr Toad are true after all?
@MM
DeleteLlys Ego, the ugly black house in Whitchurch behind its walls, reminds me of Mordor.
And one doesn't simply walk into Mordor.
The image of the fiery 🔥 eye 👁🗨 of His --Darkness keeping a close watch on Llandaff from the roof of the technology room also works well for me.
😂 😂
Care about the Parish?
DeleteMy front door is no more than a 1/4 mile from the Deanery and Barry's glove puppet has not once darkened my doorstep or left a calling card, never mind a pastoral visit or offer of home Communion.
Judging by what I don't see of him, he's arrogant and indolent.
The season of 'peace and goodwill to all mwn' is going to be an absolute stinker this year in Llandaft.
DeleteOn what theme will Caiaphas preach at the Christmas morning eucharist?
Forgiveness perhaps?
70 x 7 maybe? 😌 🤔
7,000 x 10 would be nearer the mark!
Delete🤣 🤣 🤣
Hole in one! ⛳
Delete😂
If Nick Mason and chums don't like being treated to a public spanking from the Lectern by Gerard Elias QC, they shouldn't have tried to play the Chapter's game 🎰 on the Chapter's field ⛳ with the Chapter's ball ⚽ and by the Chapter's rule book 📙 with Caiaphas as the referee blowing the Church in Wales whistle!
DeleteThe Cult of "we continue as we please" combined with the well-established --Bazza doctrine of "if you don't like it, tough" (with which the Capon is well acquainred) meant the response to the signatories was all too predictable.
There's still plenty of pew space down the road in St. Martin's Roath to which they can retreat, taking their bruised egos and cheque books along with them.
At the same time they can take the opportunity to reacquaint themselves with the dozens of their former fellow Llandaff Cathedral congregants who were driven away by the "pastoral sensitivity" of their hero Gerwyn Capon.
Well said sir.
DeleteI hear the quality of the music at St. Martin's is better too, even without the £1 million Organ that cost £1.5 million.
Where were Nick Mason and his mates when the assistant Organist and the Lay Clerks were being bullied out of their jobs in 2012 & 2013 and then made redundant for taking a stand against the corrupt Chapter?
DeleteIf the signatories are mostly "Cathedral people" Midnight Mass, they didn't give a sh#t about the mistreatment meted out to *their* "Cathedral" choir.
As for a "spiritual wasteland" and "pastoral sensitivity", how many of those signatories bothered keeping in touch with the redundant Lay Clerks and assistant Organist?
How many are still in touch with Richard Moorhouse?
How many have even once asked "How are our former Lay Clerks? Have they managed to find new singing work? How are they coping, might they need some support?"
Rhetorical questions because Ancient Briton and readers will already know the answers.
As far as I am concerned the signatories are all complete hypocrites.
How naiive are these people?
ReplyDeletePower and reputation have always trumped the gospel and truth in the Church in Wales and especially Llandaff.
Did they learn nothing from the reign of Barry Morgan, the organ appeal cover up, the Janet Henderson and Ceirion Gilbert disappearances, the employment tribunal and Songs of Praise scandal and subsequent Cathedral Choir redundancies followed by the disappearance of Richard Moorhouse?
How interesting.
DeleteThe civil war in Llandaft is onviosly raging unabated.
Fascinating to note that some of the original 32 signatories are missing from this latest broadside at the Chapter, Elias and Caiaphas.
Here's the link to the letters section of the Church Times.
Deletehttps://www.churchtimes.co.uk/articles/2021/17-december/comment/letters-to-the-editor/letters-to-the-editor
Is it merely coincidence that Nick Mason's letter is followed by another letter concerning taking Cults seriously?
😂😂
As the good people of Bangor can confirm, Randy Pandy is as much use as a chocolate teapot so the idea of him agreeing to get involved is preposterous.
DeleteOn top of that, if he tries to interfere or intervene in her Diocese, we all know Caiaphas can tell him to go forth and multiply because the Constution of the Cult in Wales is not fit for purpose.
One would think that lessons would have been learned more quickly.
DeleteIf Dr. Mason et al want to play in the court of public opinion they will need to be a bit sharper.
Right method but poor execution will not achieve the desired outcome.
It's all very well quoting extracts or referring to various correspondence but publishing the documents in full (on this blog or elsewhere) for due consideration by the public would be far more effective.
Looks like the dealer --Morgan has just given his golf caddie another card to play in the Llandaff poker game.
DeleteWill Caiaphas and Elias raise the stakes even further and if so, how?
The elephants in the room which the Capon and his letter-writing supporters have repeatedly failed to address is the AGA, the wood burning stove in the Llandaff Deanery, the entertaining budget etc.
DeleteFor someone who wrote an open letter (and had it published in the Western Mail) about Juno's lavish expenditure on the clergy jolly to Santiago da Compostela, John Pockett seems to be strangely silent about the £70k allegedly spent by the Capon without the knowledge or approval of the other Cathedral trustees.
Why is that?
@LEV
DeleteNot merely naiive but also a bit slow on the uptake.
Assuming they get the requested investigation, exactly what do they think they're going to get out of it?
Hasn't the Bishop of Monmouth scandal taught them anything?
The Church authorities will take weeks to think about it, months to appoint external investigators and years to obtain, review, re-review, redact and finally publish any subsequent report.
Any resulting recommendations will be ignored and the report will be placed on a shelf in the legal department at the RB penthouse to gather dust.
By which time Caiaphas will have reached her 70th birthday and retired in any case, Gerard Elias will have shuffled off quietly and, if there's any justice, Capon will be eating porridge at Her Majesty's pleasure.
@Gabriel
As for a next move by Caiaphas and her Chapter, I see three possibilities.
One, publish full details of what they have discovered about the still missing £34k.
Two, report Capon to South Wales police and have him charged with fraud and theft.
Three, both of the above.
The internal Church in Wales processes and procedures are clearly not fit for purpose and are partly to blame for the current disastrous stalemate.
I perceive the only means of breaking the stalemate in a reasonable timescale is for the police and Courts to be involved.
Clearly the Capon is innocent until proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt and he can hardly arrange to have himself arrested and charged.
It's up to Caiaphas now.
I have to admit that I am puzzled that South Wales police don't seem to be involved already.
DeleteIf Caiaphas and/or her new lay Chapter reported the alleged fraud to the police from the outset, she could have just sat back, enjoyed some popcorn and avoided the risk of being accused of bullying and harassment.
Naive Dr Nick Mason having another tantrum I see �� he should focus his mind towards treating his unlucky patients more than supporting the Corrupt Capon. As for David Davies, has he been seen in Llandaff since the Dean went on the sick? Laughable.
DeleteWith the number of signatories falling with each letter, perhaps Mason et al would like to explain Capon's expenses since he apparently can't!
Where were these pitiful whining self-righteous busybodies when the Capon was writing his poison pen letters to their fellow congregants?
DeleteWhere were they when the little Catholic curate disappeared without explanation?
Where were they when Caiaphas was bullying their fellow congregants David Jones and David Lambert?
Is there an Aga in the Deanery kitchen or not?
If the signatories are that supportive of the dud in the Deanery, let them put their hands into their pockets and refund the missing £70k to the Cathedral accounts.
I have no difficulty believing June "I am the accuser" Osborne is a bully, but I struggle to see why these people are so willing to take the Capon's side when all the parties involved appear to be as bad as each other.
I invite Nick Mason to explain what "pastoral sensitivity" Capon demonstrated towards those he sent his nasty letters and for which he was later forced to apologise.
DeleteSince he was appointed seven years ago, pastoral care has diminished considerably.
If it wasn't for Canon Holcombe and more recently Canon Preece, Llandaff would have been a "spiritual wasteland" years ago.
The Provincial Secretary, Head of legal services, Head of Human Resources and the Communications Officer must be sat at their desks with their heads in their hands.
Delete"LC" at "LawCo" must be rubbing her hands with glee at the prospect of yet more lucrative business coming her way.
PP. One might say that to "wash there dirty linen in public" the signatories are misguided? But, that is not so. Given that a large and growing number are "simply" voicing concern is proof that "something" is serious wrong! But, to simply "dismiss" this as "unfounded" by the leadership of the cathedral and beyond, reveals a leadership that is either "authoritarian" or, completely "misguided, maladjusted or, scared of the fallout".
ReplyDeleteWith the Monmouth report details not being in full as much is redacted (totally respect ananimity of Alex), but clear and scathing in its content.
The St David's tweeter disgrace (but, her words must have been apocryphal given the current political fallout) nevertheless, it is still "unbecoming" behaviour of a bishop.
This ongoing cauldron of toxic mix at Llandaff, was bound to boil over at some point and now it flows into the the larva flow of a pitiful church in extreme crisis
How is damage limitation a method for solution? That's the usual mode operandi. But it won't work this time
Action speaks louder than words, does it not? In Monmouth, the bishop has been instrumental in her repair and care strategy and it's working. How? Acknowledgment of the problem, and working with the people alongside, in many cases, quietly, not raising the temperature by public announcement.
In St Ds, silence, hiding, saying nothing and letting other leaders give voice and promises. Rome burns and now, a weak leader limps on.
Llandaff was a mess long before the arrival of the bishop. Several events mark this in more detail mentioned above and elsewhere. To put an authoritarian bishop in place who give limited reign room for her core team,the "do as I say" continues. But, what of the embattled Dean? If any of the issues mentioned in the "agagate" or the other serious money filtering, then he should be dismissed immediately. But, there are other parties that should be equally investigated by both the fraud squad and charity Commission. We all know who they are.
Perhaps Llandaff should be added to Monmouth rather than the reverse might help, with the cathedral and a small area becoming the AB See. So the valleys and vale join Monmouth and Cardiff is the AB See
But, is Andy AB be able to deal with this huge toxic mess? Absolutely not! I would say that two bishops have some potential to do so, Gregory has not had any skirmishes in his diocese I know of, he has the respect therein. Cherry, has seriously been a healer bishop, and could potentially see Wales change.
But, my view is that the GB ask the AB of Canterbury to put a commissary with a small team in place alongside two/three Wales bishops who act as the change masters, with no AB and the right of the AB Canterbury to appoint the next AB from anywhere in the UK. That all bishops come under the selection process that CofE has, without the political PM/HMQ approval.
My view is just that, but, surely all of us concerned for the CiW has opinions that can be honed into an appropriate process of repair. Too many good clergy and we'll qualified leading church persons have been excluded for too long from decision processes.
While agreeing with your analysis, PP, the Archbishop of Canterbury has no authority to appoint a Commissary. The Church in Wales is an autonomous, independent church (just like the Anglican Church in Ghana, where Welby has feared to tread in recent months for precisely this reason). No, the need for an episcopal clear-out can only come from within. That is why the GB needs to step up and diocesan conferences need to start formularting motions of no-confidence.
DeleteThere are two problems with your Canterbury scenario, PP. Not so long ago, if the electoral college failed to elect a bishop, the Archbishop of Canterbury nominated a bishop for the vacant see. The Governing Body removed that option and gave the plank sitters of Wales the ability to fill the vacancy. Why would the GB now ask for the Archbishop of Canterbury's assistance in dealing with the mess? More importantly, why would he want to get to involved?
DeleteThe second problem which the plank sitters would appeal to to duck and dive, is that the CiW was set up by two Acts of Parliament, which as AR states above, makes the CiW autonomous. Just as ECUSA ignored the attempted interventions of the Archbishop, so the plank sitters of Wales would too. You can guarantee that if your proposals ever got on to the agenda of GB, the plank sitters would fill the GB with their cronies in order to make sure that the proposal failed.
Seymour
PP. Thank you Seymour, I totally understand your points.
DeleteI would add that given no back stop (AB Canter etc) the we are in a situation were there is no accountability and dare I say an authoritarian regime, heading for a huge car crash, with no breaks.
All we need now is Andy to let the former AB, (his darkness) bend his ear and control from the shadows.
Our hope has to be in Christ, His Church, His Body. As we have learnt from the past, in Scripture, He cuts out rot, be it by letting the part implode, fail, or He acts.
If Andy fails to heed the warnings in the Momouth Report and other boiling pots CiW will hit the wall at a phenomenal speed he won't see until it's too late, we are nearly there!
Yes, I agree, PP. The continuing influence of The Golfer from the Shadows (bearing in mind the extent to which Andy Crap has been his obedient poodle for over a decade) should not be underestimated. Nor should his meddling in the current Llandaff debacle be taken too lightly, either.
DeletePP. I have to agree Thurifer. It's now obvious why there was some reluctance from the announcement group in a "happy clappy moment". We did not know the Monmouth Report at that point. The bench must have seen it and tried but failed in ensuring a safe pair of hands. How about, a lay AB! Let's be honest no CEO would keep the status quo so why are we sitting in our pews silent?
DeleteYou are obviously a glass half full kind of person, PP. I think you will find that the car crash you worry about has already happened. What we are seeing now is other vehicles smashing into the back of the CiW wreck. In July, the St Davids car driven by the plank sitter smashed into the first vehicle. In September, the GB car driven by the heretical plank sitter from St Asaph, with the Llandaff plank sitter as a back seat driver also smashed into the wreckage. Llandaff had two cars driven by the plank sitter and the Dean. Obviously, they weren't looking where they were going and crashed into the pile up in front of them. This was quickly followed by the Monmouth car. It is now too late for emergency assistance because by the time the ambulances arrive, they will simply be transporting corpses to the mortuary.
DeleteI hate to say this, PP, but the death of the CiW is not far away. I pray for it daily because while it exists, it is leading the people of Wales astray with erroneous practices and teaching. I believe Wales and our people deserve better. What the Monmouth Report shows is that the plank sitters couldn't organize an orgy in a brothel. John Davies was very good at "bigging" himself up; but when faced with a crisis, he couldn't deal with it. The new bishop for S&B is already telling people that there are more people worshipping in his archdeaconry of Wrexham than worship in the entire diocese of S&B. John Davies presided over 13 years of decline whilst making out that he was the Diocesan Messiah. The plank sitters have bought into the philosophy of managing decline - the philosophy so beloved of Barry Morgan. The problem is that liberalism - wherever it is found - brings death with it. I know a priest who said to Barry Morgan, and I was present when he said it: "Bishop, I have often read Jesus saying saying, "I am the good Shepherd", but I have never heard of him saying, "I am the good Manager." Where might I find that?" Anyone who knows Barry Morgan well will know that he didn't like his way of thinking to be challenged.
Sadly, my friend, the car crash has already happened, and I'm afraid that there is no saving the CiW. Its policy and decision making has alienated too many people, and I know loads, myself included, who have stopped giving money to the CiW.
Seymour
There won't even be any scrap value to be had from the wreckage as it will all be toxic and require special measures for disposal.
DeleteAn orgy in a brothel might be a bit too much to ask Seymour but multiple major cock ups don't seem to be a problem. 😂 😂 😂
DeleteNot wishing to dissent from anything you have written, Seymour, I would simply add that the first vehicle crash of this multiple-car pile-up happened in 2002 when a member of the Rhadyr Gold Club was elected as Archbishop. That set in train a series of events (rigging of episcopal elections, extracting the teeth of the GB, importing second-rate rejects from the Church of England, appointing an arrogant and inexperienced Dean of Llandaff, along with a whole host of dividing and ruling) created the perfect - and treacherous - conditions for the saga detailed in the Monmouth report to happen.
DeletePP. Thank you Seymour, I share much of your views. But, the liberal agenda used alongside seasoned thinking can work. The huge problem is that the plank sitters as you call them do have church experience and training, but greatly lack management experience and education. A theologian can be a good shepherd, but relies on the collective diocesan team around them to manage. We have neither in post, save two. The new B if S&B, and don't underestimate him, the fellow planners better watch out, he has been instrumental in managing change in his archdeaconry plus his military experience is not to be set aside, I can see some real clout being used. If he already has noticed the numbers in comparison to his archdeaconry, that says a lot about the man he is; he will not preside over demise or failure, his tract record prove it. The Gregory, is going to find a massive hole in his team as his key player has left the field.
DeleteThe other bishop is Cherry, why? Although a women with a female partner, she is still ordained and consecrated. Wrong or right doctrine, theology we may differ upon. But she is the bishop of Monmouth.
Look at how she has in two years without fuss or bluster, mopped up Richards mess, Andy's failure in very poor oversight and ++John's platitudes. Quietly she has listened to her clergy, listened to the pew sitters, not gone in like a raving banshee (Llandaff, St David's) but, worked to earn respect. She has gently steered change, altered plans Richard was literally dropping on the diocese like bombs (that's why his core team were so upset by his outbursts tyrannical is only part of it). Now the situation is much better, she has the respect of her team and clergy. The management experience she has including qualifications aide her processes. Then of course their is her music abilities. Notice how her new top team and many appointments are from outside of Wales too. I would guess her voice like John SB will be loudly heard at any bench meeting and the gravity of what John has already discovered about his diocese will not be overlooked or, dismissed.
The multiple pile up as you so eliquently mention will fine two non-involved competent bishops who will not be easily led to put band aids on the injured. They will ensure the mess is cleared in the light of day not brushed up in the darkness. I can see two early retirements from the bench as light opens the skeleton cupboard. Renewal, reduction and radical evangelism will be the order, you only have to see how the Wrexham AD and Rochdale AD were both repaired. If it was not the case, why would the current vicar of Wrexham be in post, he is no fool. Or the mentor Cherry has be so highly placed.
I believe in the Church in Wales, it needs change management and I don't see the bench being like it is now in a short period of time. But my observations come from a long well place as a pew sitters.I have faith to believe that Our Lord won't see the demise of his Church.
Collective noun for Bishops in Wales?
DeletePlankers.
🤣🤣🤣
Its needs to be more radical, a binding constitutional convention, collapsing the super top-heavy 6 diocese anachronism in a one diocese province, a presiding Bishop in Llandaff and 5 assistant/suffragans in their episcopal areas. This would dismantle the armour plating of episcopal autonomy and make the assistant bishops more operationally accountable to the Presiding Bishop. The one diocese province set up would provide for massive opportunities for effeciency savings.
ReplyDeleteThe Bench should become an executive team with clergy and lay members. Maybe the bench need to reflect on their hubris realise that the rank and file have lost all confidence in how they work together.
WHAMAB
The collapse is already underway.
DeleteHis --Darkness' strategy of steady (mis)managed decline has now accelerated out of control.
The wisest things the few remaining gullible pew-sitters can do now is to stop their giving and quietly walk away as matters have already been allowed to pass the point of no return.
PP. The one province diocese sounds promising with 5 suffragan bishops. But what about 6 cathedrals do you keep that as it is? Loosing one is hard but five?
DeleteYes, it is hard. There can be more than one cathedral in a diocese though. I'd keep Llandaff, Bangor and St David's. I'd make Brecon, Newport and St Asaph some sort of Sub-Cathedral and even possibly include St Mary's in Swansea in that second tier. I'd have one larger diocesan centre with two small regional offices (north and west). Needless to say, Callaghan Square would be vacated to more suitable, cheaper premises many of which exist in the Cardiff area.
DeleteWHAMAB
PP @ WHMAB. Good idea but St Asaph is the smallest in the UK, the downward status would not go well. I really do not think the bench, Dean's, or ADs would go for smaller, it would have to be a heavy handed GB that brought that into play. Callahan Square should go immediately, we cannot afford it. Surely a wing of St Michael's would do ?
ReplyDeleteThese adminstrative criticisms and suggestions all miss the point: essentially what is wrong with the Church in Wales is its departure from orthodox, catholic doctrine, its rewriting of ethical expectations, its top-heavy clerical structure, its heterodox female and male bishops and the poor leadership of recent decades. Tinkering with dioceses and deaneries/lmas is virtually irrelevant in comparison with the above. I don't think I have ever been so bored as with the contributions to this topic.
ReplyDeleteRkb
DeleteI agree entirely with your analysis of the problem Rob, but apart from that, everything is perfect. 😂 😂 😂
You were so bored Rob you felt the need to comment. Just to point out that the suggestions on reorganising the church were in no way a full critique of what's needed - Obviously.
DeleteWHAMAB
You are spot on, Rob. The entire plank of hirelings should be deposed from office for leading the CiW into heresy and apostacy. If we are totally honest, the example of the plank sitters is "we can do what we want". If that is the example they set before their people, is it any wonder that their people - clergy or laity - feel that they have the right to follow in the same vein?
DeleteSeymour
Another article in today's Western Mail.
ReplyDeleteHappy Christmas Llandaff.
Thus far, in terms of the Western Mail count, the score is Caiaphas and Elias 1 - 4 Capon and Mason.
DeleteHow embarrassing for the impotent home team.
PP. Is there a link to the Western Mail article? Can't find any link on Google.
ReplyDeleteWhat sad state of affairs. Perhaps the Bishops' Christmas message should start with an apology and end with a call to mission announcing a radical shake up
See Postscript [21.12.2021] above.
DeleteOne wonders if the Capon's charm offensive with his letter-writing supporters will extend to inviting them around to the Deanery for mince pies and mulled wine, warmed up on the Aga?
DeleteThe Aga they paid for!
DeletePrecisely Ruth, precisely.
DeleteFor certain, Caiaphas and her Lay Chapter won't be invited.
DeleteThe elephant in the room would be trumping away "Look on me and wonder".
PP. Thank you AB. Reading the article, it has an undercurrent of something that appears really toxic. Perhaps the new AB may do something, but what? His authority does not allow interference in another diocese. So this toxic mix becomes even darker. Whatever happens alongside the Monmouth Report fallout would be so damaging to all involved.
ReplyDeleteWhy does Martin Shipton refer to ‘Dr’ Capon?
ReplyDeleteThe Observer
Perhaps Mr Dean has used his paid time off to complete a Doctoral Degree, just like the pew sitters paid for Ms. Pemberthy's.
ReplyDeleteI may have some complaints about Dr Pembethy’s conduct as bishop, but her doctorate was earned and earned the hard way from the University of Nottingham.
DeleteDewiResistance
PP. If you look back into the Capon's previous he was "Dr" when he held the Dark Lord's Crozier. If anyone wants Crockford's should have this detail. But you also have to consider is it a media typo.
ReplyDelete+Johanna wrote an amazing thesis in the area of Quantum Physics, which could be accessed on the Nottingham Trent University website library. The academic praise for her work is without doubt. And she would if not a bishop pick up a professorship with ease.
A doctoral thesis as many know is not a light task, it can take up to 8 years to complete at an average thesis weighing in at around 50,000.
Be very interesting to know the Capon's thesis subject -
Seven years I speak from experience !
ReplyDeletePP. I also speak from experience.
DeleteI completed mine in 5
DeleteRuthy
Media studies? 😌 🤔
Delete🤣🤣🤣
Clinical Psychology. Has its uses.
DeleteEspecially when dealing with the Dean of Llandaff.
DeleteDid you listen to the Bishops sermon, Ruth. Be charitable.
DeleteDr. Ruthy
Which Bishop untRuthy?
DeleteWere any of the false prophets saying anything remotely helpful?
Bunch of chocolate teapots.
DeleteMore sense listening to the Dalai Lama.
@untRuthy
DeleteLet the dud in the Llandaff Deanery set the example of being charitable.
Rather than dipping his sticky hands into the charity's coffers and subsequently attempting to defend the indefensible, he should resign and put an end to his time as "Dean".
He's been an embarrassment from the outset, brought Llandaff into further disrepute (assuming that was even possible) and disgraced himself more than once.
Could Cherry's "Christmas message" possibly be any more insipid or historically inaccurate?
ReplyDeleteThe posed hand-wringing is cringeworthy and what on earth is she wearing around her neck? It's unrecognisable.
Can't she bring herself to make a sign of the cross for the blessing at the end of her speech?
Will DodoJo mention "never, never, never trust a Tory" in her Christmas message?
Will Juno mention the Capon's Aga Saga in her Christmas message or Nick Mason et al?
The suspense is unbearable - NOT.
PP. The Bishop of Monmouth's Christmas message is certainly fitting in the circumstances of the year we have seen. Her message is not inaccurate,in that a recent academic article made similar comparison on the refugee aspect. The cross she wore, is a modern one, take a closer look! Is there any need for the sign of the cross at the conclusion? Personally no, the fact that her message gives hope and offers some insight into her concerns for her Diocese in the light of the Monmouth Report.
ReplyDeleteShe is a well respected bishop in her Diocese and any maligned comments are less deserved. Personally I find her refreshing and a breath of fresh air.
Cobblers.
DeletePP = Proper prat.
A recent academic article?
Total hogwash.
Joseph and Mary went to Bethlehem to register for a Roman census because Joseph was of the house of David.
They were certainly not refugees.
They were in their own country.
It's as crass as Bonaparte describing Yehoshua as a Palestinian baby when he was Jewish.
Little wonder the Church in Wales is on its knees.
Don't you have a vocation PP?
DeleteIt seems neither you nor Cherry know the difference between Christmas and Epiphany PP.
DeleteBasic Sunday school stuff.
A bit like breath and breathe.
Speaking personally, her "message" is a source of despair rather than hope.
And therein lies the problem.
DeleteYou finally admit that you're not even Church in Wales but that you find her "refreshing and a breath of fresh air".
So take her back to your denomination and let us be rid of the lesbian you admire so much.
PP. I have no reason to quarrel with anyone. But, I believe that the bishop was referring to the comparison to the current refugee crisis, as Mary and Joseph did become refugees - Herod, Massacre , Egypt?
ReplyDeleteI'm no "Proper Prat" either. I have my view and respect others viewpoints. But not when a comment is used to insult. That is not debate, which I assume this blog is about
I do have a vocation, ordained (not CiW) and respect that we all have different views and opinions. I have many CiW friends and learn much about the turbulence ongoing.
Name calling is par for the course on this site. People can be very brave when hiding behind a pseudonym.
DeleteThe trip to Egypt had absolutely nothing to do with the Nativity or Christmas.
DeleteIt has not been possible to place a precise date on the arrival of the three Magi other than sometime after the Nativity and before Yehoshua's 2nd birthday, and only that much due to Herod's decree applying to all boys up to two years old.
Although Egypt is mentioned it is also unclear if they stopped and put down roots anywhere or stayed on the move remainung itinerant throughout.
Finally, unlike the vast majority of modern "refugees", illegal and economic migrants, following Herod's death they all returned home.
Chalk and cheese, Ponderous Pastor.
Allow me to correct myself Ponderous Pastor.
DeleteI realised after posting the above that I had a vague memory of Herod's decree relating to boys of "two and under" rather than under two.
Having checked Matthew's gospel and Wikipedia, it seems my memory was actually correct.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_the_Innocents
Therefore, it is possible to argue that the massacre affected boys of up to three years of age, that is, two years and 364 days old.
As for academic articles, it seems there is a considerable school of thought that the martyrdom of the innocents is only legend or old wives tales as it seems no historian of the time recorded it and it is only mentioned at all in Matthew's gospel.
Therefore the Magi could have appeared anytime up to almost three years after the Nativity, and if the whole story of the innocents is false then there was never any reason to flee anywhere at all.
To summarise, Cherry 🍒 and Ponderous Pastor are both full of cr*p.
DeleteHardly a surprise really.
Just as well PP isn't a member of the Church in Wales.
DeleteWe're in enough shit as it is.
I see the Western Mail Report (21 December) has awarded the Dean of Llandaff a PhD in its nomenclature. Is this for real, or just another example of arrogance and bluster? Claiming false qualifications is a disciplinary matter and will not stand 'Dr Capon' in good stead when the facts come tumbling out from the latest round of enquiries. As one of his fellow students at St Stephen's House recognised 'Gerwyn was hardly starred first material.'
ReplyDeleteDPM. If the PhD is a valid qualifications in the Capon's Résumé, then it would be most likely cited in Crockford's and most likely on Llandaff Cathedral official documents and other media like notice boards.
ReplyDeleteIf it is a media mistake surely some official would ensure its removal.
But, could it be an Honours citation from one of his former universities? Or, possible a former ABs award, like the Lambeth degrees?
If it is a false claim to an academic award, the CiW has grounds to dismiss the Dean and any institution cited, has grounds for legal action.
Could it be that even though the Bishop has a case to answer, she is candid enough to know that by her silence, the "give him enough rope ..." will eventually see her partially vindicated before taking her leave of the See.
If it is a simple error on the parts of either Martin Shipton or the Western Mail, isn't the onus on --Bazza's golf caddie to point out and have the error corrected publicly?
DeleteDPM. If you read the Wikipedia entry (not a sound source - but adequate) for the named Dean, you will find two academic institutions listed: John Moore's University Liverpool (one can assume an undergraduate award was achieved) and St Stephen's House Oxford (one can assume that either a Dip Theol or, MTh/MA was awarded) So, if a higher degree was achieved elsewhere, surely the awarding institution would be listed (even if the award was honourary). My guess it's a simple media oversight.
ReplyDeleteWhat I find interesting is two terms as AB Chaplain to the same AB.
He was missing his boyfriend so moved North for a while to a parish.
ReplyDeleteContented of Cardiff
And then came back to his ex boyfriend Mr Toad.
DeleteMay I appeal to commentators to refrain from personal remarks when commenting please.
ReplyDeleteMy apologies AB.
DeleteWhilst I accept Ponderous Pastor is entitled to his/her views, I truly object to them re-writing historical facts to suit their twisted point of view and supporting deviant "Bishops" especially when he/she has admitted he/she isn't even Church in Wales!
Rather than appeal to commentators to "refrain from person remarks" be decent, and don't publish them. You've allowed Dick Pickles his scandalous comment. Shame on you, and I bet you don't publish this.
DeleteRuthy
But to publish your lies is permissable untRuthy?
DeleteFor shame indeed.
PP. I have to wade into my own defence here. I did say I was ordained, but not in the CiW. But, having left that former denomination for the CiW, I am a communicant of the CiW and involved in my local parish as a layperson.
DeleteWhat is so sad is the "assumption", what happened to cordial conduct and respect. I like many find the current difficulties in the Church quite disheartening. I agree with AB and others, civility is the hallmark of good debate.
What lies are those, Ruth? I'm not aware of any lie, just views you don't agree with, and that's quite different. That's the problem with this site - any views other than those that echo your own are considered untRuth. Very poor.
DeleteRuthy
Ruthy, do you consider it untruth that the Bible teaches that sex belongs exclusively within a one man, one woman marriage?
DeleteAJ
No, I consider it an inaccurate reading of the Bible - there does not seem to be a narrow concern over exogamy in the Bible i.e. who is to be excluded from marriage and, furthermore, you'll find more than one model of marriage within its pages. So not an untruth more a superficial and simplistic reading.
DeleteRuthy
No argument on "superficial" or "simplistic".
DeleteBetween one man and one woman couldn't get any simpler.
What a load of waffle, Ruthy. You believe it to be a superficial and simplistic reading that leads to it being an untruth. Very poor. Your hypocrisy is shining through again.
DeleteAJ
So what happened to
Delete"Thou shalt not commit adultery" in your Bible untRuthy?
Gosh! The Christmas Good Will lasted four days ?
ReplyDeleteAnother letter in today's Church Times.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.churchtimes.co.uk/articles/2021/31-december/comment/letters-to-the-editor/letters-to-the-editor
Even members of the sisterhood seem to be turning on Caiaphas.
When will the RB take some meaningful action to deal with the Llandaff gangrene?
Some radical surgery is required.
PP. Blimey, the Monmouth report made for Heavy the reading, but at least the Diocese is safely under new leadership. The Provincial issues are vast and need external independent scrutiny.
ReplyDeleteNow we all know Llandaff has its issues, but the bravery of the writer of this latest letter brings such a culture of fear and seriously flawed leadership.
The only action that should happen now is the AB to act swiftly under his pre-1920 provisions as prelate, according to the AB duties, in line with Cant. Suspensions, resignations were necessary, but swiftly done.
Then appoint a independent enquiry. Perhaps the former AB York or, the former Bishop of Norwich who did a splendid report on Monmouth. Or, the recently retired Bishop of Newcastle (particularly Llandaff).
What a dreadful mess we find the Church in, I pray the AB, gets his gaiters and garters in order and blows his Mitre. Time will tell
There's nothing "safe" about the new leadership in Monmouth.
DeleteShe puts on a good show of sounding pious and wringing her hands whilst being in an immoral relationship.
You've been taken in and Satan is dancing a jig.