Interesting to see the St Davids Easter video By WOMEN FOR WOMEN now on line at the diocesan website. That bishopess baffles me: she manifests what appears to be genuine humility and reverence but accompanied by adherence to unthinking feminist dogma and a hurtful attitude, which is increasingly resented, towards retired priests. Rob
You highlight what strikes me as one of the really insidious aspects of the culture now overwhelmingly prevalent in Anglicanism: the presumption that the core essential point of the Faith and of the Church is to buttress and reinforce a series of perceived social goods, whether it be the emancipation and equality of women or, for that matter, a variety of other causes which have come to the fore at different times in the last half century.
This isn't at all to belittle socially good causes: 'See that no one repays another with evil for evil, but always seek after that which is good for one another and for all people ... as for you, brethren, do not grow weary of doing good.'
But the core essential point of the Church and its Gospel is surely none of these things, which are at best consequential to faith and to Christian living rather than their reason and purpose. Its core essential purpose is to proclaim the Being of God, his hand in the creation of all that is, his loving desire to bond with his creation, the 'divine invasion' of the Incarnation which achieves atonement and redemption and the common life in the Body of Christ which flows from it.
Only that is 'core'; everything else, however worthy, is consequent to all that, and in that strict sense is secondary.
DPM. I watched the worship broadcast from Bangor Cathedral on BBC 1 this morning. I thought it would be a blessing but, it was so static. The Preacher, the Bishop was giving an address with two many key points to bring a coherent message. It was so confusing, that I lost my way, for any "new" person looking for some comfort or guidance at this extremely difficult crisis, would be disappointed. An opportunity so lost, to reach ordinary folk with a simple but string message of hope. The St David's message was also strangely woven. Listening to +Llandaff and =Monmouth, podcasts, at last buoyant easy to follow sermons with the one thing we all need right now "hope". Much as many are unhappy with Ma'Lady Bishop's, on this occasion I have to give credit for these two bishop's who brought real messages of Christ's passion and hope for right now.
Thank you DPM, I thought it was me. When I heard the Bishop of Bangor's sermon, I thought all this isolation had addled my brain. It was ghastly. God knows what Joe Public made of it. Probably another few thousand lost to the CiW. Seymour
The Bangor offering was cringe worthy from a cathedral that is seldom open. I did email and ask them why they did not have a daily mass, given the number of clergy they have. Answer; we have a daily communion on Tuesday and Thursdays. 🤔
I too felt that the Bishop should have stuck to one or two key points and run with them; last week's message from Hereford (yes, England - I wonder why?) was, I thought, much better.
John Ellis: I love your definition of the core Christian message.
That's what they taught me when I first went looking, as a restless teenager looking for something different that might make sense of existence - though, coming from a wholly secular family, it took me a year or two to really get head and heart around it.
Sadly over rather a long time I concluded, not, as detractors sometimes allege, that they don't in their heart of hearts really believe it, because my sense was always that they genuinely do.
But rather that they don't believe it enough, which is somehow sadder.
At the risk of being accused of persecuting Joanna, St Davids, I notice on the diocesan website that she has taken another swipe at retired priests. One of them had the temerity to ask her if church bells could be rung - a reasonable request at Easter. She absolutely forbids it. Where's the danger in a single person doing this? These female clerics are increasingly showing themselves to be no friends of the Faith. Rob
I agree, Rob, she once again shows she is out of her depth, and to make it worse, petulant with it. As you have said before, she should call it a day and take her generous pension. Otherwise, the only thing is widescale rebellion among the clergy, who must follow their consciences. Dominic
Like most churchgoers, I haven't received holy communion for the past four Sundays. My local vicar has been live streaming from his living room twice every Sunday morning, two identical celebrations of holy communion at 8 am and 10 am, the only difference is that the latter celebration has an extra reading and a psalm. His wife is present at both celebrations and receives communion both times. What do readers of this blog think about this? Personally, it rankles. The church is barn sized and at 8 am we are never in double figures eg on Christmas Day last year only three in the congregation and on Easter Day last year, only four. Maybe revive the Prayer Book tradition of notifying the vicar the week before, whether you intend to be at communion and then take the necessary precautions! Cymraes yn Lloegr
When I first came to faith back in the early sixties the custom of only receiving the Sacrament once a day was, as far as I was aware, universal. If it was ever questioned or varied, I never encountered it. The sole exception that I recall was Christmas, because the liturgies of midnight, the dawn and the day were seen as separate and distinct commemorations.
But I suspect that your local vicar and his wife may be influenced at least by the spirit of the rubric in the 1662 Book of Common Prayer which directs:
'And there shall be no Celebracion of the Lords supper, except there be a convenient number to communicate with the Priest, according to his discretion. And if there be not above twenty persons in the parish of discretion to receive the Communion, yet there shall be no Communion, except four (or three at the least) communicate with the Priest.'
Even though 'one; isn't 'three', it might be at least a nod of acknowledgement to the spirit of the rubric!
What I can't see, though, is the point of duplicating an 'on-line' liturgy on the same day. Surely your vicar could post just one celebration for people to view and, insofar as possible, participate in at a time of their choosing?
Thanks for that response. Re the number who should communicate with the Priest, clergy in the Church in Wales have been celebrating holy communion in their churches either alone or with a camera operator present eg I watched the Easter Day Eucharist from Holy Trinity Abergavenny. There was an unseen person present but he didn't receive communion, only the celebrant, Father Tom, received. Obviously the circumstances are unique although if you counted the number watching on Facebook (24 or so) and making a spiritual communion, perhaps that satisfies the spirit of the Prayer Book rubric! Cymraes yn Lloegr
And I've always thought that the rubric was a tad unrealistic, in that a pious communicant who had notified his parish priest of his intention to communicate on a given Sunday or holy day might, in the interval between notification and celebration, have committed some sin which in his eyes made him unworthy to receive the sacrament, on the principle set out by St Paul that 'each one must examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body eats and drinks judgment on himself.' In which case - given that reformation piety might take such a thing very seriously - he might decide to abstain.
So does the priest then feel obliged to cancel, at the last minute, the celebration which he has previously announced?!
But you're right - the current circumstances are unprecedented, at least in recent centuries.
PS I well recall Holy Trinity Abergavenny, having lived in Abergavenny half a century ago when Fr Ronald Davies was vicar there. And rural dean as well.
And when the nave hadn't been carpeted or the Cranmer table installed, and when the Adoration painting which had originally formed the altar frontal at Llanthony Abbey still hung on the wall above the choir stalls. (I wanted to insert a photo here, but this proved impossible.)
At this distance in time I don't recall the adornments of the nave. But. stylistically speaking, the altar was decidedly Tridentine.
As, indeed, was Fr Davies's liturgical style as celebrant. Absolutely no 'Cranmer table'; I'm not sure Ronald would have known quite what to do with one of those!
PP. This is interesting before the lock down and lockout you rarely saw the Church use podcasts (Utube, Zoom, Facebook, Skype and even WhatsApp). Now we have most parishes trying to catch up. It's at best wonderful that at last the Church is embrassing technology. I notice at some it can be a little poorly presented but, presented it is, and that's brilliant. So, what is need is the 100 year fund administered by +Andy the remaining surplus should be used to set up a programme studio to professionally bring the Church into this 21st century. The online Eucharist is helpful, but perhaps suspending or changing format for matins, evensong, compline etc might help the ppl more with good teaching. The current celebration for viewers, leaves one lacking, empty something missing, not sure if I'm the only one? As for Bell ringing, it's not +Joanne decision, she is only holding to the bench's agreement (see the minutes/bulletin) some dio have put it online or in Ad Clericum others have not.So even though it is obvious from many sources J has been heavy handed, she is only towing a ++Jh, provincial stance.
Anon (why don't you have a recognisable name?); The bishops' guidance notes I have seen do NOT ban bell ringing by a priest. It forbids 'gatherings'. Is there another set of notes? It is because Thumbelina goes beyond the guidance that she receives (deserved) stick. Rob
I have no dog in this fight, so could I make a couple of comments on what she has said, which is "I have seen a misguided suggestion from a retired cleric that people should ring our church bells. The government has asked that we stay at home unless our journey is necessary. Ringing church bells is not necessary and I therefore remind you that no one should enter a church building to ring bells ...".
1. We are enjoined to stay at home. We can survive without the ringing of bells. Going to church to do so is not a necessary journey. Preventing the spread of the virus is more important than producing a nice noise, however much it may uplift those who hear it. My tradition manages perfectly well without bells!
2. The Welsh Government regulations are clear that only a Minister of religion should enter a place of worship for the purposes of broadcasting a service. I agree one might stretch that to include a camera-person, or someone to occasionally go in alone just to check the building. But not bell ringers, although (as suggested above) I suppose it would be OK for a priest to ring a bell alone.
3. She says "people" - in the plural, which implies a group of ringers. Not only will they be illegally "gathering", they will be doing so in the confined space of a ringing chamber where they will not be able to maintain social distancing.
4. So I think she is justified in what she said. However it was unfortunate that she mentioned that the request to ring bells had been made by "a retired cleric", thus raising the hackles of those who have posted above. She could have left that out.
PP. Rob their is another set of guidance, I found it through the St Asaph site it was also on Mon Facebook for a while just checked its not there currently. The whole object of being anon being anon.
I can't help thinking that the Church has been all too willing to give up its chance to witness at Easter. A priest ringing church bells alone wearing gloves seems unexceptionable. Bell ringing has always been more than a reminder to people that a service is about to begin; it is a signal act proclaiming to the community the reality and importance of ultimate things and the Supreme Being behind everything. To forbid this - and I hope there will be widespread disobedience to this petulant, dictatorial bishopess's edicts - is consistent with her previous unkind actions. So I say to her again: retire! Rob
PP. Ringing a bell in an empty church doesn't seem a huge issue. I don't think an unattended church would harbour viruses, but I'm no expert. The tolling of a bell if arranged to time across the province would send a strong message. What I don't understand is in certain areas of the UK, Muslim prayers are being held in open spaces during Ramadam. In Birmingham the Green Lane Mosque was using a local tennis court. I thought all gatherings were prohibited. My point is, what harm would one solitary bell ringing be? I assume that special permission would need to be raised but surely that is not insurmountable.Italy (look at the dessimation) still rang its bells! Time for the Christian community to step up, alongside the excellence in community support being given by many priests and congregations. Regarding the sacrament isn't the principle of reserved sacrament a good starting point.
Well said, anonymous PP! I must say it, Thumbelina's ban on this harmless but deeply meaningful act, which should be disobeyed, is indeed petulant, high handed and wrong. It illustrates the rightness of opposing these female usurpers, whose gospel is intolerant feminism. Rob
PP. We may have serious issues with two Ma'Lady Bishop's, but our 3rd appears to be far more open and listening to her clergy and taking no stringent actions. Even Anglo Catholics are finding her no threat or like her colleagues a sturnbanfuer. I watch the Diocesan Conference for St David's, the presidential address was so scary and at time incoherent, you could sense the tension in the hall and facial expressions showed dissent. I wonder if her mentor is behind this way of working. I pray she wakes up before we see another Monmouth topple crisis. At least Monmouth now has some level of stability.
Interesting to see the St Davids Easter video By WOMEN FOR WOMEN now on line at the diocesan website. That bishopess baffles me: she manifests what appears to be genuine humility and reverence but accompanied by adherence to unthinking feminist dogma and a hurtful attitude, which is increasingly resented, towards retired priests.
ReplyDeleteRob
You highlight what strikes me as one of the really insidious aspects of the culture now overwhelmingly prevalent in Anglicanism: the presumption that the core essential point of the Faith and of the Church is to buttress and reinforce a series of perceived social goods, whether it be the emancipation and equality of women or, for that matter, a variety of other causes which have come to the fore at different times in the last half century.
DeleteThis isn't at all to belittle socially good causes: 'See that no one repays another with evil for evil, but always seek after that which is good for one another and for all people ... as for you, brethren, do not grow weary of doing good.'
But the core essential point of the Church and its Gospel is surely none of these things, which are at best consequential to faith and to Christian living rather than their reason and purpose. Its core essential purpose is to proclaim the Being of God, his hand in the creation of all that is, his loving desire to bond with his creation, the 'divine invasion' of the Incarnation which achieves atonement and redemption and the common life in the Body of Christ which flows from it.
Only that is 'core'; everything else, however worthy, is consequent to all that, and in that strict sense is secondary.
Oh well said, John Ellis.
ReplyDeleteRob
stunning picture; never seen it before ; thank you Ancient Briton for the reference.
ReplyDeleteDPM. I watched the worship broadcast from Bangor Cathedral on BBC 1 this morning. I thought it would be a blessing but, it was so static.
ReplyDeleteThe Preacher, the Bishop was giving an address with two many key points to bring a coherent message. It was so confusing, that I lost my way, for any "new" person looking for some comfort or guidance at this extremely difficult crisis, would be disappointed. An opportunity so lost, to reach ordinary folk with a simple but string message of hope.
The St David's message was also strangely woven.
Listening to +Llandaff and =Monmouth, podcasts, at last buoyant easy to follow sermons with the one thing we all need right now "hope". Much as many are unhappy with Ma'Lady Bishop's, on this occasion I have to give credit for these two bishop's who brought real messages of Christ's passion and hope for right now.
Thank you DPM, I thought it was me. When I heard the Bishop of Bangor's sermon, I thought all this isolation had addled my brain. It was ghastly. God knows what Joe Public made of it. Probably another few thousand lost to the CiW.
DeleteSeymour
I thought the sermon today by the Sub Dean at St David's was excellent (although short by Baptist standards!)
DeleteThe Bangor offering was cringe worthy from a cathedral that is seldom open. I did email and ask them why they did not have a daily mass, given the number of clergy they have. Answer; we have a daily communion on Tuesday and Thursdays. 🤔
ReplyDeleteI too felt that the Bishop should have stuck to one or two key points and run with them; last week's message from Hereford (yes, England - I wonder why?) was, I thought, much better.
ReplyDeleteJohn Ellis: I love your definition of the core Christian message.
That's what they taught me when I first went looking, as a restless teenager looking for something different that might make sense of existence - though, coming from a wholly secular family, it took me a year or two to really get head and heart around it.
DeleteSadly over rather a long time I concluded, not, as detractors sometimes allege, that they don't in their heart of hearts really believe it, because my sense was always that they genuinely do.
But rather that they don't believe it enough, which is somehow sadder.
Happy Easter AB!
ReplyDeleteAt the risk of being accused of persecuting Joanna, St Davids, I notice on the diocesan website that she has taken another swipe at retired priests. One of them had the temerity to ask her if church bells could be rung - a reasonable request at Easter. She absolutely forbids it. Where's the danger in a single person doing this? These female clerics are increasingly showing themselves to be no friends of the Faith.
ReplyDeleteRob
I agree, Rob, she once again shows she is out of her depth, and to make it worse, petulant with it.
ReplyDeleteAs you have said before, she should call it a day and take her generous pension.
Otherwise, the only thing is widescale rebellion among the clergy, who must follow their consciences.
Dominic
Her resignation is overdue.
DeleteJonesy
Resignation?
DeleteShe should never have been appointed.
I am certain that the Holy Ghost played no part in the process.
Like most churchgoers, I haven't received holy communion for the past four Sundays. My local vicar has been live streaming from his living room twice every Sunday morning, two identical celebrations of holy communion at 8 am and 10 am, the only difference is that the latter celebration has an extra reading and a psalm. His wife is present at both celebrations and receives communion both times. What do readers of this blog think about this? Personally, it rankles. The church is barn sized and at 8 am we are never in double figures eg on Christmas Day last year only three in the congregation and on Easter Day last year, only four. Maybe revive the Prayer Book tradition of notifying the vicar the week before, whether you intend to be at communion and then take the necessary precautions!
ReplyDeleteCymraes yn Lloegr
When I first came to faith back in the early sixties the custom of only receiving the Sacrament once a day was, as far as I was aware, universal. If it was ever questioned or varied, I never encountered it. The sole exception that I recall was Christmas, because the liturgies of midnight, the dawn and the day were seen as separate and distinct commemorations.
DeleteBut I suspect that your local vicar and his wife may be influenced at least by the spirit of the rubric in the 1662 Book of Common Prayer which directs:
'And there shall be no Celebracion of the Lords supper, except there be a convenient number to communicate with the Priest, according to his discretion. And if there be not above twenty persons in the parish of discretion to receive the Communion, yet there shall be no Communion, except four (or three at the least) communicate with the Priest.'
Even though 'one; isn't 'three', it might be at least a nod of acknowledgement to the spirit of the rubric!
What I can't see, though, is the point of duplicating an 'on-line' liturgy on the same day. Surely your vicar could post just one celebration for people to view and, insofar as possible, participate in at a time of their choosing?
Thanks for that response. Re the number who should communicate with the Priest, clergy in the Church in Wales have been celebrating holy communion in their churches either alone or with a camera operator present eg I watched the Easter Day Eucharist from Holy Trinity Abergavenny. There was an unseen person present but he didn't receive communion, only the celebrant, Father Tom, received. Obviously the circumstances are unique although if you counted the number watching on Facebook (24 or so) and making a spiritual communion, perhaps that satisfies the spirit of the Prayer Book rubric!
DeleteCymraes yn Lloegr
Perhaps it does.
DeleteAnd I've always thought that the rubric was a tad unrealistic, in that a pious communicant who had notified his parish priest of his intention to communicate on a given Sunday or holy day might, in the interval between notification and celebration, have committed some sin which in his eyes made him unworthy to receive the sacrament, on the principle set out by St Paul that 'each one must examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body eats and drinks judgment on himself.' In which case - given that reformation piety might take such a thing very seriously - he might decide to abstain.
So does the priest then feel obliged to cancel, at the last minute, the celebration which he has previously announced?!
But you're right - the current circumstances are unprecedented, at least in recent centuries.
PS I well recall Holy Trinity Abergavenny, having lived in Abergavenny half a century ago when Fr Ronald Davies was vicar there. And rural dean as well.
And when the nave hadn't been carpeted or the Cranmer table installed, and when the Adoration painting which had originally formed the altar frontal at Llanthony Abbey still hung on the wall above the choir stalls. (I wanted to insert a photo here, but this proved impossible.)
DeleteAt this distance in time I don't recall the adornments of the nave. But. stylistically speaking, the altar was decidedly Tridentine.
DeleteAs, indeed, was Fr Davies's liturgical style as celebrant. Absolutely no 'Cranmer table'; I'm not sure Ronald would have known quite what to do with one of those!
PP. This is interesting before the lock down and lockout you rarely saw the Church use podcasts (Utube, Zoom, Facebook, Skype and even WhatsApp). Now we have most parishes trying to catch up. It's at best wonderful that at last the Church is embrassing technology. I notice at some it can be a little poorly presented but, presented it is, and that's brilliant.
ReplyDeleteSo, what is need is the 100 year fund administered by +Andy the remaining surplus should be used to set up a programme studio to professionally bring the Church into this 21st century.
The online Eucharist is helpful, but perhaps suspending or changing format for matins, evensong, compline etc might help the ppl more with good teaching. The current celebration for viewers, leaves one lacking, empty something missing, not sure if I'm the only one?
As for Bell ringing, it's not +Joanne decision, she is only holding to the bench's agreement (see the minutes/bulletin) some dio have put it online or in Ad Clericum others have not.So even though it is obvious from many sources J has been heavy handed, she is only towing a ++Jh, provincial stance.
Anon (why don't you have a recognisable name?); The bishops' guidance notes I have seen do NOT ban bell ringing by a priest. It forbids 'gatherings'. Is there another set of notes? It is because Thumbelina goes beyond the guidance that she receives (deserved) stick.
ReplyDeleteRob
I have no dog in this fight, so could I make a couple of comments on what she has said, which is "I have seen a misguided suggestion from a retired cleric that people should ring our church bells. The government has asked that we stay at home unless our journey is necessary. Ringing church bells is not necessary and I therefore remind you that no one should enter a church building to ring bells ...".
ReplyDelete1. We are enjoined to stay at home. We can survive without the ringing of bells. Going to church to do so is not a necessary journey. Preventing the spread of the virus is more important than producing a nice noise, however much it may uplift those who hear it. My tradition manages perfectly well without bells!
2. The Welsh Government regulations are clear that only a Minister of religion should enter a place of worship for the purposes of broadcasting a service. I agree one might stretch that to include a camera-person, or someone to occasionally go in alone just to check the building. But not bell ringers, although (as suggested above) I suppose it would be OK for a priest to ring a bell alone.
3. She says "people" - in the plural, which implies a group of ringers. Not only will they be illegally "gathering", they will be doing so in the confined space of a ringing chamber where they will not be able to maintain social distancing.
4. So I think she is justified in what she said. However it was unfortunate that she mentioned that the request to ring bells had been made by "a retired cleric", thus raising the hackles of those who have posted above. She could have left that out.
PP. Rob their is another set of guidance, I found it through the St Asaph site it was also on Mon Facebook for a while just checked its not there currently. The whole object of being anon being anon.
ReplyDeleteI can't help thinking that the Church has been all too willing to give up its chance to witness at Easter. A priest ringing church bells alone wearing gloves seems unexceptionable. Bell ringing has always been more than a reminder to people that a service is about to begin; it is a signal act proclaiming to the community the reality and importance of ultimate things and the Supreme Being behind everything. To forbid this - and I hope there will be widespread disobedience to this petulant, dictatorial bishopess's edicts - is consistent with her previous unkind actions. So I say to her again: retire!
ReplyDeleteRob
PP. Ringing a bell in an empty church doesn't seem a huge issue. I don't think an unattended church would harbour viruses, but I'm no expert.
ReplyDeleteThe tolling of a bell if arranged to time across the province would send a strong message.
What I don't understand is in certain areas of the UK, Muslim prayers are being held in open spaces during Ramadam. In Birmingham the Green Lane Mosque was using a local tennis court. I thought all gatherings were prohibited.
My point is, what harm would one solitary bell ringing be? I assume that special permission would need to be raised but surely that is not insurmountable.Italy (look at the dessimation) still rang its bells! Time for the Christian community to step up, alongside the excellence in community support being given by many priests and congregations.
Regarding the sacrament isn't the principle of reserved sacrament a good starting point.
Well said, anonymous PP! I must say it, Thumbelina's ban on this harmless but deeply meaningful act, which should be disobeyed, is indeed petulant, high handed and wrong. It illustrates the rightness of opposing these female usurpers, whose gospel is intolerant feminism.
ReplyDeleteRob
PP. We may have serious issues with two Ma'Lady Bishop's, but our 3rd appears to be far more open and listening to her clergy and taking no stringent actions. Even Anglo Catholics are finding her no threat or like her colleagues a sturnbanfuer.
ReplyDeleteI watch the Diocesan Conference for St David's, the presidential address was so scary and at time incoherent, you could sense the tension in the hall and facial expressions showed dissent. I wonder if her mentor is behind this way of working. I pray she wakes up before we see another Monmouth topple crisis. At least Monmouth now has some level of stability.
Perceptive.
ReplyDeleteRob