From The Living Church: Lay Presidency Comes to the Church of England "The Church of England’s blessings for same-sex couples, which stop short of marriage rites, have prompted a comparable protest from low-church evangelicals."
Not that it will bother the Church in Wales which has long since ceased to keep the faith. Nor will it affect those of us who have effectively been denied the sacraments following archbishop Barry Morgan's shameless withdrawal of sacramental and pastoral provision for Anglicans who do.
As Anglicanism becomes more secularised the number of attendees tumbles. Collapse is inevitable.
The Church Growth Modelling forecasts, optimistically, the extinction of the Church in Wales by 2060 with just 3,000 in attendance.
That it should come to this!
Weekly Sunday attendances are already below ten thousand in Wales not to mention the clergy retirement demographic timebomb going off.
ReplyDelete2060 is at least 25 years too optimistic.
Lots of new clergy being ordained each year. Feeling optimistic at the direction of travel. The liberal church I attend is thriving. It's only the anti-women churches that have seen a drastic reduction in attendance. No surprise there.
ReplyDeleteRufus.
Rubbish.
DeleteWas it seven ordinands in Llandaff this year, and just the one in Bangor, a lesbian I seem to recall?
The cult of queer in Wales is terminally ill.
Rufus, you are not just deluded but telling untruths, and you know it. The fastest growing religion in the UK is Islam and that is not only anti-women but anti-alphabet too. Both the Society of England and the Cult in Wales have record numbers of vacancies, despite assurances that by letting women and deviants rule over us we would see churches overflowing everywhere.
DeleteCan't honestly see why anyone would bother with a "liberal church", may as well stay in bed or go cycling instead, for all the meaning such attendance would have.
Strangely enough the only thriving Western churches, here, in Europe and in much of the USA, are the ones that call for some commitment, and uphold biblical teachings (you know, things contained in that Book you refuse to believe). Anything else is simply a social club, and a rather silly one at that.
Brian.
While it is true that the number of Muslims, both as an absolute figure and as a percentage of the population, has indeed increased, and is more youthful than the population as a whole, one needs to analyse the figures in a bit more detail. For instance, how widely dispersed is this population? How much is it due to young people in a multi-faith society more consciously defining themselves as Muslim? Did the last census manage to reach a greater proportion of the Muslim population than the previous one? How much Muslim growth is simply due to inward migration? I have no answer to these questions; but I suspect the number of people from traditionally non-Muslim backgrounds to Islam is, in fact, very small.
DeleteThe liberal church I attend is spiritually uplifting, socially engaged and biblically literate and intelligent. Absolutely love it. Grown 50 per cent in last 3 years.
DeleteRufus
So now there's three of you?
Delete😂
On a good day CG.
DeleteRufus.
Rufus, please share the location of your place of worship for the benefit of those less fortunate than yourself seeking spiritual uplifting and perhaps growing the congregation even more.
DeleteI attend St. John’s in the city centre. You’d be very welcome AB, as would anyone looking for an intelligent and socially engaged expression of faith. We’re growing year on year. Young and old together. We are a Diverse, Liberal and Inclusive Church with a heart for social justice. We believe ourselves “called to share in God's mission by welcoming people of all ages, cultures and traditions to worship, witnessing to Christian faith, knowing God and making God known by serving Christ in both our visitors and our neighbours”.
DeleteWe are not everybody’s cup of tea, but for those who attend, Christ is present.
Rufus
Rufus
Intelligent, socially engaged and liberal must be Polari for misled, deviant and Hell-bound.
DeleteLittle wonder you're so confused so often Doofus.
The lair of the trans Canon would have been my second guess after the Cathedral.
Does your queered "church" publish it's communicant numbers or are they concealed like Llandaff?
But perhaps Baptism numbers would be the most revealing?
St. John's "Biblically literate".
Delete🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Enoch, we're not everybody's cup of tea as I said. Where do you attend?
DeleteRufus
That's us Menai. Loving the smiles.
DeleteRufus
No surprise that you affiliate with Menai's emojis Rufus. They're all as lop-sided as your faith, comments and nonsenses.
DeleteAlways good to come at faith tangentially. Huge suspicion for those who think they have at all sewn up. Have a good bank holiday you happy and affirming lot.
DeleteRufus
Perhaps Rufus can give us the approximate number in the Sunday congregation at St Johns. Having scoured the 'livestream' on youtube it seems to be talking heads only and avoids any view of the congregation.
DeleteLW
Take the mick all you like Doofus but I don't believe it word you say.
DeleteWhat are the communicant and baptism numbers for the last 24 years?
Scared to publish them or is it just easier not to keep records?
No. Come along and count for yourself. You’ll find a warm welcome and no doubt find your prejudices questioned. We’ve grown hugely over the years m, and the elderly folk in particular adore Canon Sarah. If you can see beyond your transphobia, you’ll be similarly ministered to.
DeleteRufus
I call bullcrap 💩💩💩
DeletePublish the figures for the Communicants, Baptisms, Confirmations and Ordinands since the new millennium coming from your sick little collective.
I predict you won't dare to do so.
You’re welcome to attend - arrive at a more factually informed judgement. Over to you and your sceptical ilk.
DeleteRufys
As I thought Rufus, you have next to no congregation to speak of. What you don't understand is that you're part of the reason. In trying to be relevant you have achieved the opposite and the pews are not overflowing with the LGBT people you predicted would 'find a welcome' there.
DeleteLW
I wouldn't be seen dead walking into your cesspit of Biblical corruption.
DeleteBut the most interesting revelation is that you make claims of a growth you can't then substantiate with the evidence of hard numbers when challenged to do so.
You're a fraud and a liar in more ways than one.
LW - as I thought? You think nonsense. You come along any Sunday of the year, my lovely, and you’ll see how significant a congregation we are. Stay for coffee and get to know a few of us. Many a Mary Magdalene in our midst.
DeleteRufus.
Cymru'r Groes - your comment made me laugh out loud. You've made my day.
DeleteRufus
That would only be fair.
DeleteYour unsubstantiated claims of intelligence, Biblical literacy, year on year growth and Christ's presence at the Trans Temple had the same effects on me.
Doesn't appear that anyone here thinks they "have it all sewn up", that's putting words in people's mouths.
DeleteHowever, creating your own beliefs because you don't like the moral standards that the Bible suggests is certainly not the way to everlasting life nor a good example to set in this life.
Brian.
We Baptists, as you will know, have a different understanding of both ordination and the Eucharist, hence "lay presidency" is not an issue in our churches. Having said that, I do think that Taylor and his CofE ilk are being deliberately provocative, along the lines of "if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck ...", with regard to both their "commissionings" and "fellowship meals".
ReplyDeleteLook at the man's facial expression. Have you ever seen anything more miserable?
ReplyDeleteThis is a consequence of attemping to change the faith once delivered to the saints. Faithful people end up pushing back. The arrogance of those who think they can just change the faith after almost 2000 years astounds me.
ReplyDeleteDim Diolch
So tell me, would you still uphold the right to own slaves on account that it’s biblical? A faith that allowed that was also delivered to the saints.
DeleteJanice
Absurd.
DeleteSlavery is recorded in the bible as a fact of life but slavery wasn't ever "Biblical".
Virtually every tribe, kingdom, empire and civilisation has practised slavery at one time or another, and none more so than Islam and the Arabs.
St Paul petitions masters to be kind to their servants, how sinful that he doesn’t say “liberate them”. A man of his time. We know better.
DeleteJanice
Are you sure servants are the same thing as slaves?
DeleteGardeners, Housekeepers, Maids, Butlers and Valets are servants but certainly not slaves
St. Paul (Saul) was a Roman citizen and would have known that suggesting widespread manumission might have made him vulnerable to charges of treason or insurrection etc. Following the two years of slave rebellions started in 73 BC by Spartacus and his gladiators, the Romans were particularly touchy of large numbers of slaves or former slaves gathering anywhere.
Being treated kindly could also include being released from bondage after many years of loyal and faithful service and in fact many Romans did precisely that.
Everybody's a "man of his time".
The sheer arrogance of the claim "we know better" is textbook deadly sin of Pride.
See Ephesians 6:5-8 ' 'slaves be obedient to your human masters with fear and trembling'. We know better, arrogant textbook pride, so be it! With a name like Exodus I expected better of you.
DeleteJanice
Ranice/Jufus: "We know better."
DeleteSums up the UK Anglican 'secular mock-Christianity' in three arrogant words.
Brian.
Thank you.
DeleteJanice
You have no business expecting anything, either of me or anyone else.
DeleteJust who the hell do you think you are?
More textbook pride.
In the Roman world, post Spartacus, Ephesians 6, 5-8 was sound advice for slaves.
Unlike you and the gay/trans cabal, Paul was more concerned with their eternal soul and damnation rather than their temporary mortal situation over which he had no control or influence.
If you and your ilk truly believe you're going to heaven, I'd rather be in the other place, the company will be nicer and the music better.
Well, you’ve shown your true colours in that particular contribution. Why so angry?
DeleteJanice.
Brian, I think it’s true to say that William Wilberforce knew better than to quote Saint Paul and called, not for slaves to obey their masters and masters to treat their slaves with kindness, but for the abolition of the wicked slave trade in its entirety. Ephesus as we know was a major centre for trading slaves, and to say that Saint Paul had no influence over that let’s him off the hook. I don’t think it arrogant to say that we know better, nor impertinent to point to how Saint Paul’s words were used by Christian slave owners to justify their abhorrent trade. Yes, on this we know better.
DeleteJanice
There is another side to this slavery debate and St Paul's view of it. When Onesimus (a slave) ran away from his master, Philemon, and made his way to Paul in Rome, Paul sent him home and besought Philemon to forgive Onesimus.
DeleteClearly, Paul had to live under Roman law. To keep an escaped slave was a breach of that law. To send Onesimus away as an escaped slave, but not return him home, meant that should Onesimus be caught, he would face the death penalty. There was only one course of action, Onesimus had to go home.
Yet Paul speaks up for Onesimus to Philemon. Just read is words:
I always thank my God as I remember you in my prayers, because I hear about your love for all his holy people and your faith in the Lord Jesus. I pray that your partnership with us in the faith may be effective in deepening your understanding of every good thing we share for the sake of Christ. Your love has given me great joy and encouragement, because you, brother, have refreshed the hearts of the Lord’s people. Therefore, although in Christ I could be bold and order you to do what you ought to do, yet I prefer to appeal to you on the basis of love. It is as none other than Paul—an old man and now also a prisoner of Christ Jesus—that I appeal to you for my son Onesimus, who became my son while I was in chains. Formerly he was useless to you, but now he has become useful both to you and to me. I am sending him—who is my very heart—back to you. I would have liked to keep him with me so that he could take your place in helping me while I am in chains for the gospel. But I did not want to do anything without your consent, so that any favour you do would not seem forced but would be voluntary. Perhaps the reason he was separated from you for a little while was that you might have him back forever—no longer as a slave, but better than a slave, as a dear brother. He is very dear to me but even dearer to you, both as a fellow man and as a brother in the Lord. So if you consider me a partner, welcome him as you would welcome me. If he has done you any wrong or owes you anything, charge it to me. I, Paul, am writing this with my own hand. I will pay it back—not to mention that you owe me your very life. I do wish, brother, that I may have some benefit from you in the Lord; refresh my heart in Christ."
These are not the words of a 'dyed in the wool' slave trader, nor an advocate for slavery. There are some who even believe that Philemon did free his slave, and that Onesimus went on to become the bishop of Ephesus. St Ignatius of Antioch sent a letter to the Church in Ephesus in which he wrote: "I have now been able to play the host in God's name to your whole community in the person of your bishop, Onesimus. His endearing kindliness is beyond all words; I pray you to cherish him in the true spirit of Jesus Christ, and that everyone of you may be the sort of person that he is. Blessings on Him who gave you the privilege of having such a bishop, and well indeed do you deserve it." Eusebius of Caesarea thought that the Onesimus mentioned here and in the letter to Philemon were one and the same, though modern scholarship now doubts it. That said, modern scholarship doubts everything!
It is all very well to take verses like Ephesians 6: 5-8 and to determine that that was the mind of the apostle. It doesn't necessarily mean that it was. Besides, modern scholarship even doubts that Paul wrote the letter to the Ephesians. If that were true, and I doubt it, Paul's view of slavery would be more akin to that expressed in his letter to Philemon.
Loose Canon
DeleteI find this an entirely helpful contribution to the debate. I’m not for one minute trying to argue that Saint Paul would have been a slave trader himself, and for sure his attitude for slaves is quite progressive for his day. That said his words have been used to sanction slavery, and of that there can be no doubt within Christian history. A narrative that supports slavery is one of the shameful inheritances of our Christian past We now know better, although the continuation of systemic racism within the life of the church means that we still have much ground to cover
Janice
Isn't this entire Mystic Meg mind-reading of a 2,000 years dead apostle who may or may not have had views on Slaves becoming a bit wearisome? But as life in Roman times and life of the Romans seems to be crux, then let's use their language: De asini umbra disceptare, tranlated in modern WOKE to 'trivial things come from little minds' but correctly as 'to argue about the shadow of an ass' and used by the Romans to mean turning conversation from the banal to more mature matters of greater importance.
DeleteWould that AB's Latin spurs him to say 'Dixi' - "That's it. The Matter is closed".
A feature of your contributions Old Bill is that you only want to talk about the trivia of the Diocese of Bangor. In view of your penchant for the Latin tongue, I would say that if we are boring you, then "Vade et vide alibi".
DeleteLoose Canon
Oh I would challenge your view that events within the Diocese of Bangor are editorially 'trivial'. More archdeacons sacked, deserted or stormed-off than you can shake a Mitre at, more clergy jumping ship to other diocese than any other comparable bishopric, a trio of three disgraced Deans in a row forced to resign. We no longer have loose canons; those canons we had have all expended their 'shot' - we don't refer to canon 'balls' any more - with no resource left to recruit more to the poison-chalice of Andrew John who has had to resort to cardboard cut-outs from other diocese including London and Llandaff.
DeleteA diocese caught plundering and tomb-robbing its own redundant churches of valuable artefacts by the Local Authority then claiming them to have been 'probably stolen' rather than 'fess up to a blatant effort to circumvent planning laws (and now paying the price). And, with much else, the deep divisions still left from the corrupt days of Bishop Barry Bangor Morgan and the bitter, open-wound, nonsense of the Rev'd Clifford Williams [Benllech]. Twenty-plus years of damage left unrepaired. But thankfully - yet - no sniff of Aga kitchen stoves to compare with the 'scandals' of your Llandaff 'trivia'.
My 'penchant' for Latin? Well on assumption that Law-studies ++Andrew John would have required some basic grasp of Latin to obtain his mediocre BA (and that he does, in fact, cue into Ancient Briton) I figured that he might understand basic Latin phrases. He certainly doesn't understand plain English or the global language of common sense.
Arte perire sua old chap. Cadit quaesto.
Two things, Old Bill. I have never provided any Llandaff trivia because I do not live in that Diocese. In our Diocese everyone behaves themselves, or at least keeps their misbehaviour under wraps.
DeleteSecond, Barry Morgan left your diocese in 1999, and 25 years on you are still bleating about him. All your trivia is water under the bridge, get over it.
Loose Canon
Speak it in a whisper but the CofE Church Commissioners have done something right for a change.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/08/28/church-of-england-stops-grade-ii-church-converted-mosque/
Bewildered
Looking forward to seeing you all tomorrow at the Cesspit of Biblical Corruption (CBC). 10am. Come early as we soon fill up, but if we do, always happy to budge up the pew and make space. Here's hoping Cymru'r Groes will sit next to me.
ReplyDeleteRufus
Give your head a wobble, it might dislodge some of those demons and dangerously divisive thoughts. But I doubt it.
DeleteBrian.
So sorry cupcake, I shall be washing the car. Far more useful.
DeleteCome and wash mine :-)
DeleteRufus
Are you using Ancient Briton's website as a dating agency, Rufus?
DeleteBe careful, Cymru'r Groes might turn up and convert you to the Orthodox Christian Faith.
Smiler
Be a better use for it for sure.
DeleteRufus