None of us knows of course, but the prospect of Angels leading me or a once energetic Pope into 'Paradise' to be directed by Lazarus to some inner dormitory where we will slump into some comatose 'eternal rest' for the rest of time depresses me. Surely Heaven offers something a bit more exciting than this AB?
Bad enough in my elderly years worrying about the boring prospect of 'ga-ga' life slumbering away in some OAP 'Rest Home' slurping soup and nodding off for 23 hours of the day ... but surely Heaven (or Paradise as you call it) offers better than this?
Should I die while still correspondent of your excellent 'site' please do not wish that I 'Rest in Peace'. Enjoy your new youthful birth would be a far better Commendation as I flutter off with my gym shoes, old battered Banjo and bunjee chord to go visit old chums on other Cloud levels. Eternal 'Rest' seems like a big yawn to me. I'm sure that Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI would agree. If this is the 'Christian' perception of 'Paradise/Heaven' (resting lethargically into infinite eternity) then I wish I had been born to a religion where the dead return to earth as bouncing Joey kangaroos or playful chipmonks. Your perception of 'Paradise' seems terribly boring. RIP? Nah!
Ad Clerum [Vita non est vivere sed valere vita est]! That assumes you understand there's life after death.
The trouble with any and every attempt to 'describe' the life of the world to come is that the human mind and human language fails utterly. The concept is, from our human perspective, wholly unimaginable.
Which is why I always used to prefer Peter Abelard's alternative way of coming at the concept in his poem - later a hymn - 'O quanta qualia sunt illa sabbata', which, in Fr. John Mason Neale's translation, reads, in the third verse:
'Truly, “Jerusalem” name we that shore, City of peace that brings joy evermore; Wish and fulfillment can severed be ne’er, Nor the thing prayed for come short of the prayer.'
Perhaps another way of looking at "rest in peace" may be found in the following epitaph:
Here lies a poor woman who always was tired, for she lived in a place where help wasn't hired. Her last words on earth were, "Dear friends, I am going where washing ain't done, nor sweeping or sewing; and everything there is exact to my wishes, for where they don't eat, there's no washing of dishes. I'll be where loud anthems will always be ringing, but having no voice, I'll stay clear of the singing; so don't mourn me now, don't mourn me never, cos I'm going to do nothing for ever and ever.
I seldom disagree with old friend of 30+ years 'Ad Clerum' but I have to remind him that Benedict XVI was Catholic and so the Lazarus, Angels and Martyrs welcoming party guiding him to a cosy bunk for 'eternal rest' (snoozing) wouldn't apply to him.
For Catholics of course still uphold the dreadful concept of Purgatory (an Infallible Doctrine enshrined, they believe, in Parts I, II and II of their Catechism). OK, the Vatican did try and play this down some years ago saying Purgatory wasn't that bad. It was more like 200 hours of unpaid community service rather than six months in a Borstal boot-camp. Nevertheless: no sleep for the wicked!!! God, (according to the Vatican) intends a bit of suffering and misery before all earthly sins - including failing to take the Holy Communion the same day after the process of Confessional and Rosary - can be exorcised.
Ad Clerum should count himself lucky that according to the Anglican Church of which he is member, he can skip that bit and go directly to Room XXCVLXXIII at the heavenly Travel Lodge to bunker down until the day of Judgement. Eternal Rest with a mug of Horlicks etc.
The church wonders why its pews are almost empty. Priests in pulpits still promoting their ideas of God's heaven!? Catholic or Anglican, neither of them very appealing. They haven't moved on in their 'theology' since the Middle Ages and I'm not surprised that my grandchildren have more trust in Harry Potter's JK Rowlings than the Merlin yarn-telling parsons in the 2023 AD pulpit. The same church(s) who ridiculed Michelangelo, Newton and Darwin for their dis-proving science ... and then kept their heads down when the Vatican was proved wrong.
If the concept of 'eternal rest' as AB and others wish is correct, then when death happens, just make sure you're not there when it happens.
I can see why Roman Catholicism arrived at the concept of purgatory. It follows from two Scriptural passages. In the letter to the Hebrews, we read: "For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgement, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries... How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay." And again, "the Lord will judge his people." It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." (Hebrews 10: 26-30) In the Revelation, we read that "nothing unclean" can enter the City of God. (Revelation 21: 27) Putting the two passages together, it follows that God must have a way of 'purging' the uncleanness of those who have already been baptized, and yet have fallen into sin again. Otherwise, the new creation would immediately become tarnished again. Seymour
Surely the most boring concept of heaven is found in a carol that most of us have sung over Christmas: according to "Once in royal David's city", all we shall do is "wait around". Sounds like a celestial bus stop on a Bank Holiday!
Should 'Once in royal' be described as a carol? And should we continue to indulge the sentimental tastes of older churchgoers by allowing it to be sung in public services? The Preface to the Oxford Book of Carols describes these compositions as 'songs with a religious impulse that are simple, hilarious, popular, and modern' (even if many are ancient) and goes on to explain that the word 'carol' has its origin in dance, something quite hard to imagine doing to the tune 'Irby'. As for the words: typical mid-Victorian moralistic (cp Mrs Alexander's other compositions): no modern child is going happily to identify as 'little, weak, and helpless' or to respond positively to the exhortation to be 'mild, obedient, good as He.'
Your reference to 'a celestial bus stop' immediately recalled to my mind the late C.S. Lewis's inevitably speculative but immensely imaginative story envisaging one possible concept of 'the life of the world to come', though as it seems to incorporate a - sort of - notion of purgatory, it might not be so congenial to folk of firm protestant conviction! However it's entirely unboring!
The title is 'The Great Divorce'. I know that it was still in print a number of years back, but I don't know if it still is presently.
Mrs Alexander wrote some of the best hymns ever. There must be something amiss with intellectuals who can't recognise it. Reread verse 1 of 'Once in royal'. Rob
Which bit of "God made them, High and Lowly" do you object to. God made all of us, even the middling ones. "Ordered their estate" of course means a) "Provided for them" and b) Provides in particular a rhyme for "gate". Mrs. C.M. Alexander
But I'd suggest to you that the plain and natural meaning of "God made them, high and lowly" isn't either 'provided for them" or 'in particular a rhyme for "gate"', but rather the suggestion that a social hierarchy in which toffs rule and ordinary folk do as the toffs bid them is God's will for the world.
And I don't see anything in the Gospel which gives substance to that doctrine. On the other hand I find it unsurprising that the daughter of an English land agent to the Earl of Wicklow, born in the early 19th century who married a clergyman who ultimately became bishop of Derry and then archbishop of Armagh, should hold such a view.
But I'd argue that's a class-based and hierarchical view of society rather than an authentically Christian one.
The reality in the church of the apostolic era was that there was no prospect whatever of abolishing slavery in wider society, so no one attempted the impossible. Instead the emphasis was on the baptized and discipleship status: if a Christian owned a Christian slave, the priority was - or ought to be! - their joint discipleship and not the master>slave relationship. A teaching which the letter to Philemon seems to explore.
A repudiation of the whole notion of slavery didn't really start to take shape until after the Roman empire had become, at least nominally, largely Christian; though it was a gradual process which initially did tend the focus on the idea that no Christian should enslave another Christian. Holding pagan slaves might be viewed differently.
Presumably, then, you accept that a God who is omniscient, omnipotent and infinitely wise could, if he'd so chosen, re-order what the hymn describes as his 'humbler creation' so as to ensure that no man even thought of enslaving a fellow man.
But clearly he opted not to do so. Instead he opted to take our nature upon him and become 'flesh of our flesh'; in or, as St Athanasius memorably put it, that 'he became what we are in order that we might become what he is' - by being 'mystically incorporated into the body of Christ' by baptism, participation in the Eucharist and thereby becoming 'very members incorporate in the mystical Body of Christ'.
And, having bestowed upon us that status, he left it to us, with 'the assistance of his grace' to work out the implications of that status for ourselves.
Your invisible imaginary friend is neither omniscient nor omnipotent. Had s/he been so, they'd have forseen any fall from grace and prevented it. The suggestion that an omnipotent omnipresent omniscient being is simultaneously fallible is patently absurd.
I didn't indicate my own personal view on this matter one way or the other; I just set out how the traditional Christian apologetic has generally responded to the point that you were making.
Though I did presume that you probably held to some basic Christian belief, simply because that appears to be the perspective of most who post here. I shouldn't presume!
Quite so John, you shouldn't and neither should I. However, I think it is fair to say that the Royal Navy certainly "attempted the impossible" and played a significant part in bringing an end to widespread slavery, despite the PC brigade trying to rewrite history.
I think that the Navy simply did what it was ordered to do, according to law. After all, that's surely the function of each and every branch of the military, isn't it?
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/01/10/justin-welby-defends-100m-fund-address-past-wrongs-slavery-churches/ Hypocrite Justin Welby finds £100 million of other people's money lying behind the sofa to be blown on salvaging his PC conscience and restoring integrity to the Church of England.
'Strewth! I started this discussion about 'eternal rest' etc., and now I've had a most terrible thought which hopefully won't befall Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI (or us) as he settles himself down for some eternal napping. How dreadful if on arrival at the Paradise Hotel dorm, you're squeezed onto a bunk bed with 'DD' in the bunk beneath and Un-Ruthy nattering away on the bunk above!!!!
And in the bunks either side of you, you have the plankers! At that point, you know that Judgement has taken place, and you are in hell for eternity! It reminds me of another epitaph: If they have gone to realms above, farewell to peace and heavenly love; but if they've gone to the lower level, dear Lord, have mercy on the poor Devil. Seymour
@ Matthew: I agree entirely with your definition of 'carol'. "Once in royal" is - at best - a hymn (and "While shepherds watched" is a Scripture paraphrase). My wife refuses to sing some verses of OiRDC for exactly the reasons you mention!
Once it Royal David's City was surely one of a series of hymns written for children taking in sequence the words of the Creed - in this case "and was incarnate of the HG...". All things B and B was the illustration of "Maker of Heaven and Earth"
Once in Royal David;s City was surely written as one of a sequence of hymns for children illustrating the clauses of the Creed - in this case "Et Incarnatus est...". All things B and B illustrated "Maker of Heaven and Earth". I like both.
Is this interrogation and analysis of every word or nuance of Carols and Hymns really relevant. So long as they are generally singable, enjoyed by kids and in overall context or conformity to our 'faith' then why dissect them for hidden or false meanings.
Continue along this route and we'll need to re-write the Bible right from the book of Genesis. Adam giving Eve an apple??? Tosh! Any old botanist will tell you that unless ALDI or TESCO had set up store, apple trees didn't exist in Mesopotamia in those days. The only known fruits cultivated and harvested in that entire region were Apricots. But does it matter? Its a good little yarn so lets not spoil the fruits of others' creative labours.
Old Bill, have you not noticed that the Plankers and the Governing Body have been re-writing the Bible for the last thirty years or more? It affirms their air of superiority that they know better than God, his Son, or the Holy Spirit. An extremely liberal lecturer in our Faculty of Theology often began sentences with "What St Paul really wanted to say was..." This then gave him the opportunity to change St Paul's teaching to his own. I suspect the Plankers have caught the bug. Seymour
Indeed Seymour. They've been chopping and changing since quills were first discovered; mainly before the Reformation and the power-playing political 'editing' whims of Popes. But the yarn from the Garden of Eden about apples (not apricots) seems to have flown under the radar to date. Here at Bangor when I used to attend it was common for pulpit preachers to begin some yawning sermon with: "Someone once said ...." and then plough on on 'someones' theme. Much like your liberal lecturer. What idiots they must think we are. I'm only surprised that in their money-hungry wheezes they haven't re-written the story of Fishes and Loaves to read: "John West Pilchards and Mother's Pride"
I once said to the said lecturer, "Don't you think that if St Paul wanted to say that, he would have said it?" He responded with: "Perhaps St Paul didn't realize that he should have said what I quoted." Just like the Cult in Wales, the Faith is to be made up as you go along. Seymour
Interesting to note that the assembled congregation for Pope Benedict's funeral mass today, in St. Peter's Square, was probably more than the average Sunday attendance in the Cult in Wales, The Episcopal Church in Scotland and the Church of Ireland.
None of us knows of course, but the prospect of Angels leading me or a once energetic Pope into 'Paradise' to be directed by Lazarus to some inner dormitory where we will slump into some comatose 'eternal rest' for the rest of time depresses me. Surely Heaven offers something a bit more exciting than this AB?
ReplyDeleteBad enough in my elderly years worrying about the boring prospect of 'ga-ga' life slumbering away in some OAP 'Rest Home' slurping soup and nodding off for 23 hours of the day ... but surely Heaven (or Paradise as you call it) offers better than this?
Should I die while still correspondent of your excellent 'site' please do not wish that I 'Rest in Peace'. Enjoy your new youthful birth would be a far better Commendation as I flutter off with my gym shoes, old battered Banjo and bunjee chord to go visit old chums on other Cloud levels. Eternal 'Rest' seems like a big yawn to me. I'm sure that Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI would agree. If this is the 'Christian' perception of 'Paradise/Heaven' (resting lethargically into infinite eternity) then I wish I had been born to a religion where the dead return to earth as bouncing Joey kangaroos or playful chipmonks. Your perception of 'Paradise' seems terribly boring. RIP? Nah!
Ad Clerum [Vita non est vivere sed valere vita est]! That assumes you understand there's life after death.
Ad Clerum
The trouble with any and every attempt to 'describe' the life of the world to come is that the human mind and human language fails utterly. The concept is, from our human perspective, wholly unimaginable.
DeleteWhich is why I always used to prefer Peter Abelard's alternative way of coming at the concept in his poem - later a hymn - 'O quanta qualia sunt illa sabbata', which, in Fr. John Mason Neale's translation, reads, in the third verse:
'Truly, “Jerusalem” name we that shore,
City of peace that brings joy evermore;
Wish and fulfillment can severed be ne’er,
Nor the thing prayed for come short of the prayer.'
Especially the last two lines.
Perhaps another way of looking at "rest in peace" may be found in the following epitaph:
DeleteHere lies a poor woman who always was tired,
for she lived in a place where help wasn't hired.
Her last words on earth were, "Dear friends, I am going
where washing ain't done, nor sweeping or sewing;
and everything there is exact to my wishes,
for where they don't eat, there's no washing of dishes.
I'll be where loud anthems will always be ringing,
but having no voice, I'll stay clear of the singing;
so don't mourn me now, don't mourn me never,
cos I'm going to do nothing for ever and ever.
Seymour
@ Seymour:
DeleteThat's new to me, and it's yet another and different way of 'coming at' the concept - which I rather like!
I seldom disagree with old friend of 30+ years 'Ad Clerum' but I have to remind him that Benedict XVI was Catholic and so the Lazarus, Angels and Martyrs welcoming party guiding him to a cosy bunk for 'eternal rest' (snoozing) wouldn't apply to him.
ReplyDeleteFor Catholics of course still uphold the dreadful concept of Purgatory (an Infallible Doctrine enshrined, they believe, in Parts I, II and II of their Catechism). OK, the Vatican did try and play this down some years ago saying Purgatory wasn't that bad. It was more like 200 hours of unpaid community service rather than six months in a Borstal boot-camp. Nevertheless: no sleep for the wicked!!! God, (according to the Vatican) intends a bit of suffering and misery before all earthly sins - including failing to take the Holy Communion the same day after the process of Confessional and Rosary - can be exorcised.
Ad Clerum should count himself lucky that according to the Anglican Church of which he is member, he can skip that bit and go directly to Room XXCVLXXIII at the heavenly Travel Lodge to bunker down until the day of Judgement. Eternal Rest with a mug of Horlicks etc.
The church wonders why its pews are almost empty. Priests in pulpits still promoting their ideas of God's heaven!? Catholic or Anglican, neither of them very appealing. They haven't moved on in their 'theology' since the Middle Ages and I'm not surprised that my grandchildren have more trust in Harry Potter's JK Rowlings than the Merlin yarn-telling parsons in the 2023 AD pulpit. The same church(s) who ridiculed Michelangelo, Newton and Darwin for their dis-proving science ... and then kept their heads down when the Vatican was proved wrong.
If the concept of 'eternal rest' as AB and others wish is correct, then when death happens, just make sure you're not there when it happens.
Old Bill
I can see why Roman Catholicism arrived at the concept of purgatory. It follows from two Scriptural passages.
DeleteIn the letter to the Hebrews, we read: "For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgement, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries... How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay." And again, "the Lord will judge his people." It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." (Hebrews 10: 26-30)
In the Revelation, we read that "nothing unclean" can enter the City of God. (Revelation 21: 27)
Putting the two passages together, it follows that God must have a way of 'purging' the uncleanness of those who have already been baptized, and yet have fallen into sin again. Otherwise, the new creation would immediately become tarnished again.
Seymour
Tell it to DD and the gay cabal.
DeleteWith such an epitaph, I bet the Monumental Mason was able to retire for life ... ! But I agree. Nice. I still prefer that of Spike Milligan.
ReplyDeleteOld Bill.
Surely the most boring concept of heaven is found in a carol that most of us have sung over Christmas: according to "Once in royal David's city", all we shall do is "wait around". Sounds like a celestial bus stop on a Bank Holiday!
ReplyDeleteShould 'Once in royal' be described as a carol? And should we continue to indulge the sentimental tastes of older churchgoers by allowing it to be sung in public services? The Preface to the Oxford Book of Carols describes these compositions as 'songs with a religious impulse that are simple, hilarious, popular, and modern' (even if many are ancient) and goes on to explain that the word 'carol' has its origin in dance, something quite hard to imagine doing to the tune 'Irby'. As for the words: typical mid-Victorian moralistic (cp Mrs Alexander's other compositions): no modern child is going happily to identify as 'little, weak, and helpless' or to respond positively to the exhortation to be 'mild, obedient, good as He.'
Delete@ Baptist Trainfan:
DeleteYour reference to 'a celestial bus stop' immediately recalled to my mind the late C.S. Lewis's inevitably speculative but immensely imaginative story envisaging one possible concept of 'the life of the world to come', though as it seems to incorporate a - sort of - notion of purgatory, it might not be so congenial to folk of firm protestant conviction! However it's entirely unboring!
The title is 'The Great Divorce'. I know that it was still in print a number of years back, but I don't know if it still is presently.
Mrs Alexander wrote some of the best hymns ever. There must be something amiss with intellectuals who can't recognise it. Reread verse 1 of 'Once in royal'.
DeleteRob
@ Rob:
DeleteReally? Would you genuinely endorse
'The rich man in his castle,
The poor man at his gate;
God made them, high and lowly.
And ordered their estate'
as a valid expression of the divine will for the common life of human beings in society?!
Which bit of "God made them, High and Lowly" do you object to. God made all of us, even the middling ones.
Delete"Ordered their estate" of course means
a) "Provided for them" and
b) Provides in particular a rhyme for "gate".
Mrs. C.M. Alexander
The 'God made us' bit is quite unexceptionable.
DeleteBut I'd suggest to you that the plain and natural meaning of "God made them, high and lowly" isn't either 'provided for them" or 'in particular a rhyme for "gate"', but rather the suggestion that a social hierarchy in which toffs rule and ordinary folk do as the toffs bid them is God's will for the world.
And I don't see anything in the Gospel which gives substance to that doctrine. On the other hand I find it unsurprising that the daughter of an English land agent to the Earl of Wicklow, born in the early 19th century who married a clergyman who ultimately became bishop of Derry and then archbishop of Armagh, should hold such a view.
But I'd argue that's a class-based and hierarchical view of society rather than an authentically Christian one.
Would some maintain Colossians 3:22, Ephesians 6:5 and slavery are still to be tolerated?
DeleteMy own response to the question which you pose would be 'not for a moment'.
DeleteAt least in our contemporary culture.
I see, so it's the Woolworth's "pick'n'mix" approach towards the Bible and scriptures as handed down through the ages.
Delete🤣
@ Dai the druid:
DeleteThe reality in the church of the apostolic era was that there was no prospect whatever of abolishing slavery in wider society, so no one attempted the impossible. Instead the emphasis was on the baptized and discipleship status: if a Christian owned a Christian slave, the priority was - or ought to be! - their joint discipleship and not the master>slave relationship. A teaching which the letter to Philemon seems to explore.
A repudiation of the whole notion of slavery didn't really start to take shape until after the Roman empire had become, at least nominally, largely Christian; though it was a gradual process which initially did tend the focus on the idea that no Christian should enslave another Christian. Holding pagan slaves might be viewed differently.
Hilarious 😂
DeleteI understood that attempting the impossible was coming back from the dead, which was not merely attempted but allegedly achieved.
🤣
Presumably, then, you accept that a God who is omniscient, omnipotent and infinitely wise could, if he'd so chosen, re-order what the hymn describes as his 'humbler creation' so as to ensure that no man even thought of enslaving a fellow man.
DeleteBut clearly he opted not to do so. Instead he opted to take our nature upon him and become 'flesh of our flesh'; in or, as St Athanasius memorably put it, that 'he became what we are in order that we might become what he is' - by being 'mystically incorporated into the body of Christ' by baptism, participation in the Eucharist and thereby becoming 'very members incorporate in the mystical Body of Christ'.
And, having bestowed upon us that status, he left it to us, with 'the assistance of his grace' to work out the implications of that status for ourselves.
Your invisible imaginary friend is neither omniscient nor omnipotent.
DeleteHad s/he been so, they'd have forseen any fall from grace and prevented it.
The suggestion that an omnipotent omnipresent omniscient being is simultaneously fallible is patently absurd.
I didn't indicate my own personal view on this matter one way or the other; I just set out how the traditional Christian apologetic has generally responded to the point that you were making.
DeleteThough I did presume that you probably held to some basic Christian belief, simply because that appears to be the perspective of most who post here. I shouldn't presume!
Quite so John, you shouldn't and neither should I.
DeleteHowever, I think it is fair to say that the Royal Navy certainly "attempted the impossible" and played a significant part in bringing an end to widespread slavery, despite the PC brigade trying to rewrite history.
@ Dai the druid:
DeleteI think that the Navy simply did what it was ordered to do, according to law. After all, that's surely the function of each and every branch of the military, isn't it?
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/01/10/justin-welby-defends-100m-fund-address-past-wrongs-slavery-churches/
DeleteHypocrite Justin Welby finds £100 million of other people's money lying behind the sofa to be blown on salvaging his PC conscience and restoring integrity to the Church of England.
'Strewth! I started this discussion about 'eternal rest' etc., and now I've had a most terrible thought which hopefully won't befall Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI (or us) as he settles himself down for some eternal napping. How dreadful if on arrival at the Paradise Hotel dorm, you're squeezed onto a bunk bed with 'DD' in the bunk beneath and Un-Ruthy nattering away on the bunk above!!!!
ReplyDeleteNow that WOULD be Purgatory !!!
Ad Clerum
And in the bunks either side of you, you have the plankers! At that point, you know that Judgement has taken place, and you are in hell for eternity! It reminds me of another epitaph:
DeleteIf they have gone to realms above,
farewell to peace and heavenly love;
but if they've gone to the lower level,
dear Lord, have mercy on the poor Devil.
Seymour
@ Matthew: I agree entirely with your definition of 'carol'. "Once in royal" is - at best - a hymn (and "While shepherds watched" is a Scripture paraphrase). My wife refuses to sing some verses of OiRDC for exactly the reasons you mention!
ReplyDeleteOnce it Royal David's City was surely one of a series of hymns written for children taking in sequence the words of the Creed - in this case "and was incarnate of the HG...". All things B and B was the illustration of "Maker of Heaven and Earth"
DeleteOnce in Royal David;s City was surely written as one of a sequence of hymns for children illustrating the clauses of the Creed - in this case "Et Incarnatus est...". All things B and B illustrated "Maker of Heaven and Earth". I like both.
DeleteMrs. C.M. Alexander
How many others? Obviously 'There is a green hill', whose theologically dodgy verses 3 and 4 the EH marks with an * .
DeleteNot sure about others (except the Green Hill).
DeleteThere is a green hill provides the simplest and best expression of tne traditional, orthodox atonement. Thank you Mrs A.
DeleteRob
Is this interrogation and analysis of every word or nuance of Carols and Hymns really relevant. So long as they are generally singable, enjoyed by kids and in overall context or conformity to our 'faith' then why dissect them for hidden or false meanings.
ReplyDeleteContinue along this route and we'll need to re-write the Bible right from the book of Genesis. Adam giving Eve an apple??? Tosh! Any old botanist will tell you that unless ALDI or TESCO had set up store, apple trees didn't exist in Mesopotamia in those days. The only known fruits cultivated and harvested in that entire region were Apricots. But does it matter? Its a good little yarn so lets not spoil the fruits of others' creative labours.
Old Bill
Old Bill, have you not noticed that the Plankers and the Governing Body have been re-writing the Bible for the last thirty years or more? It affirms their air of superiority that they know better than God, his Son, or the Holy Spirit. An extremely liberal lecturer in our Faculty of Theology often began sentences with "What St Paul really wanted to say was..." This then gave him the opportunity to change St Paul's teaching to his own. I suspect the Plankers have caught the bug.
DeleteSeymour
Indeed Seymour. They've been chopping and changing since quills were first discovered; mainly before the Reformation and the power-playing political 'editing' whims of Popes. But the yarn from the Garden of Eden about apples (not apricots) seems to have flown under the radar to date. Here at Bangor when I used to attend it was common for pulpit preachers to begin some yawning sermon with: "Someone once said ...." and then plough on on 'someones' theme. Much like your liberal lecturer. What idiots they must think we are. I'm only surprised that in their money-hungry wheezes they haven't re-written the story of Fishes and Loaves to read: "John West Pilchards and Mother's Pride"
ReplyDeleteOld Bill.
I once said to the said lecturer, "Don't you think that if St Paul wanted to say that, he would have said it?" He responded with: "Perhaps St Paul didn't realize that he should have said what I quoted." Just like the Cult in Wales, the Faith is to be made up as you go along.
ReplyDeleteSeymour
Interesting to note that the assembled congregation for Pope Benedict's funeral mass today, in St. Peter's Square, was probably more than the average Sunday attendance in the Cult in Wales, The Episcopal Church in Scotland and the Church of Ireland.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/01/08/vatican-conservatives-waging-secret-plan-oust-pope-francis/
ReplyDeleteLots of interesting stuff in today's Daily Telegraph.
Yet no attempt to substantiate the lurid headline.
Delete