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| The Bishop of Bangor, Andy John, at his Enthronement as Archbishop of Wales Source: Church in Wales |
Little surprise then that the Church Growth Modelling blog estimates the extinction of the Church in Wales, among other denominations, in less than 30 years.
The author writes: "Sadly, the immediate future looks bleak for the Church in Wales, Church of Scotland, Episcopalians, Methodists, and older Welsh nonconformists. They need to seriously ask themselves how they have gotten themselves into a situation where extinction is less than 30 years away. What is wrong with their beliefs and practices that are stopping them from making converts? A quick about-turn is needed."
Also, "The Church in Wales contains a mixture of churchmanships, and for many years all were on the conservative side. However, in the last 25 years, it has become increasingly liberal. In common with most historic UK Christian denominations, it has steadily declined since 1960. This analysis investigates the likelihood of decline leading to denominational extinction."
By secularising the Church it has lost most of its mystery, its 'otherness'. Its bishops simply do as they please acting more like politicians than shepherds of the faithful.
The first prediction of the bishop of Bangor after his enthronement as archbishop of Wales was 'Same-sex Church in Wales marriage hope within five years'. The Holy Grail of the renewed, diverse, and inclusive Church in Wales dominated by its bench of bishops.
Perhaps this should come as no surprise from an archbishop who is a re-married divorcee who interprets scripture to suit himself and those whose main mission is inclusion of their own to the exclusion of all others.
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| Richard Pain, Bishop of Monmouth, Petertide ordinations 2018 Source: Monmouth DCO |
Episcopal frivolity is nothing new to the Church in Wales.
The former bishop of Monmouth caused offence to many by his inappropriate behaviour in Eucharistic vestments.
Perhaps the bishop was unaware, or simply did not care, that in the ninteenth century a priest, Fr Arthur Tooth, was sent to prison for defending the right to use Eucharistic vestments in the Church of England.
Such events serve to emphasise the extent to which the Church in Wales has sunk into secularism.
In St Davids diocese bishop Joanna unashamedly carries on after her extended sick leave as if no problem with her ministry ever existed while rumours of alleged bullying continue to circle around the bishop of Llandaff.The archbishop brushed aside the behaviour of the bishop of St Davids and rejected calls that he should launch an inquiry into the running of the Llandaff diocese following allegations of bullying.
Birds of a feather! The Church in Wales is doomed.
Let me guess.
ReplyDeleteThe latest intake of ordinands for St. Poodles school of heresy, sponsored by the chocolate teapot himself?
REMINDER
ReplyDeleteWould commentators please note that 'Anonymous' comments submitted for publication must include a pseudonym.
My fault to your last reminder AB: Forget the sign-off tag. So a repeat:
ReplyDeleteI had often thought - as other might have also noted - the uncanny likeness in looks and stance between the Welsh TV comedian Rob Brydon presenter of 'Would I Lie To You?' and the artificially, gormless an stupid expression ++Andy puts on when he sniffs a Press camera on the horizon or pompously processes in ever-more theatrical robes trying to look self-important and Bishop-like.
Difference is of course that (1) Rob Brydron's TV audience knows the show is based on lies, fibs and buffoonery where as ++Andy lies as a matter of course and is still working on his buffoonery and (2) Rob Bryson is a highly entertaining and clever comic. ++Andy is simply a clown - but no one laughs.
More seriously, I note the photo used by AB (above) is a Church-in-Wales (C) release. Might we assume that someone within the RB HQ PR office and once so, so loyal to ++Barry is already putting the knife in? In most PR offices defensive of the 'top man', this sort of photo would be quashed on sight rather than released. Kipling's poem on the 'Female of the species' springs to mind in cunning.
Ad Clerum
One wonders which moron suggested striking such a pose in the first place, never mind the idiot that authorised its publication?
DeleteWhatever next? Emojis stamped on the altar breads?
DeleteTeilo
Tabs of ecstasy or LSD as altar breads?
DeleteAt the end of John, chapter 6, we are told of disciples who would no longer go about with Jesus because they disagreed with his teaching. Jesus turned to his apostles and offered that they too, could go home; to which Peter responded: "Where else can we go when you have the words of eternal life."
ReplyDeleteToday, the liberals have the arrogance to insist that their view is right and Jesus has got it wrong. They, no doubt, recite the Creeds with their hands behind their backs and their fingers crossed, hoping that God will not notice. With such liars wearing mitres, who do not believe the Christian Faith, how can anyone ever expect them to proclaim it with credibility?
Seymour
Is there no-one in the Governing Body that will hold this fool to account?
ReplyDeleteHis misbehaviour is bringing the Cult in Wales into further disrepute at the very least, if indeed it isn't sacrilege.
Or are the few remaining pew sitters just waiting to fall off their perches and all beyond caring?
I’m guessing this is +John’s family putting us in touch with the affection with which he is held by those who love him. I think it’s a delightful image - gloriously down to earth and pointing us towards the ordinariness of God in human flesh. A theologically profound image if you have the intelligence and grace to see it. Lost, of course, on the majority of AB’s clique.
ReplyDeleteTP
So theologically profound TP that the source link has been changed to remove the 'delightful image'.
DeleteYou think? It comes over to me as both vacuous and demeaning, in roughly equal measure. My memory of church life in Wales extends back over fifty years now, and the apparently blithe and insouciant publication of such a wholly daft pic. relating to such an occasion would have been inconceivable in the '60s and '70s.
DeleteIs there now any doubt that Randy Pandy is a complete idiot?
DeleteLittle wonder someone has removed the link AB but thanks to your diligence the Genie is out of the bottle and won't go back in.
Reminds me of a 'Giles' cartoon !
ReplyDeleteUnison Off.
Dont worry..the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass was lost to the Church of England and her off shoots in 1559.
ReplyDeleteSurely, if you accept this argument, which I do not, the date would be not 1559 but whenever the last priest ordained under the old rite died, probably some time in the early 1600s? Just saying.
DeleteUtter rubbish Richard.
DeleteWhich of the Apostles were ordained by the Church after attending a Seminary and whatever happened to "Where two or more are gathered together in my name"?
The "Church" is and always has been a parasitic big business leeching from the gullible rich and the poor masses.
Disaster is neither looming nor closer but is already upon the Church in Wales. If it was a horse it would have been put down by now.
ReplyDeleteI think this shows lack of pastoral care to a large part of the CiW of which ++Andy is head. Like the Bishop of St David's who didn't think or care about how hurtful her comments were to the many Tory voters......this picture shows no respect for the many Anglo Catholics in the CiW.
ReplyDeleteNo wonder the decline is so massive.
I look forward to hearing what George Conger will have to say about this latest buffoonery.
ReplyDeleteInteresting isn't it that the Church-in-Wales has taken down the original photo of the buffoon and his tasteless 'swingers'. I remember Anna Morrell - PR person to Welsh archishops since ++Barry - assure me years ago that neither she nor anyone else at HQ ever, ever, take notice of Ancient Briton and indeed don't even bother 'stoop' to read it. Well that's tosh as now evident. (That's akin to the No. 10 Downing Street Communications Director saying he never reads Private Eye) So I guess, here's the evidence that she - and they - do. As soon as the tirade of critisism kicks in (apart from 'TP' of course), the photo is off-screen. Porkies again Anna.
ReplyDeleteBut isn't it a shame that now out in the open, copies of the photograph couldn't be placed on every pew in every church throughout Wales so that the Plebs-on-Pews better understand who their archbishop is. Does anyone have link to the Western Mail's arch antagonist Martin Shipman's e.mail ... oddly (when it comes to leaks), the same Western Mail that Ms Morrell's husband/partner does or used to work for. It seems a shame that AB's 'exclusive' be shared by only a few of us ... !
So, 'hullo Anna'. How are things in the Press Office? Care to comment on AB?
Old Bill
In response to your request, I have tried posting Martin Shipton's email address twice for you old Bill but it has not appeared.
DeleteI'm sorry but I don't know if this is due to user error on my part, a technical problem or censorship.
Anna, Googling suggests that the email address you quote is not in the public domain so it is regarded as private. Consequently I doubt that Mr Shipton would thank AB for making a private email address available to trolls and spammers.
Delete@Old Bill
DeleteAs it seems that you are already acquainted with her, why don't you contact Anna Morrell and ask her for Martin Shipton's email address? 😂
Try sending it to
Deletenewsdesk@walesonline.co.uk
marked for his attention.
Trolls and spammers on Ancient Briton's blog?
DeletePerish the thought!
You'll usually see an email address for Martin Shipton printed at the top of his articles published in the Western Mail or South Wales Echo.
DeleteThe latest appearing on 19th May was listed as newsdesk@walesonline.co.uk
Try sending the photograph there, marked for Mr Shipton's personal attention.
And so the CinW falls into further disrespect and irrelevance to the public at large. The Church has lost its mystery and otherness and operates politically and secularly.
ReplyDeleteSin, repentance, forgiveness, beauty, truth, judgement, can no longer be preached. Gay marriage and LGBT are centre-stage under the banner of 'equal love'.
Surely the new Archbishop must be censured for this despicable offence before the altar?
LW
The living, walking and talking proof that David Cameron's "swivel-eyed loons" really do exist.
ReplyDeleteThere is a further update on Church in Wales decline: "UK Church Decline and Progressive Ideology" that you may find of interest. https://churchmodel.org.uk/2022/05/20/uk_church_decline_and_progressive_ideology/
ReplyDeleteThank you John.
DeleteA very interesting article thank you Church growth modelling.
DeleteI notice in the congregation's that are growing, as well as trying to stick to long held Biblical beliefs.... they also care for people.
One relative in a massive evangelical church is cared for via the home group system. They meet for both spiritual and social times together. If one member of the group is ill, food is delivered to them, and support instantly given.
Another v elderly relative hasn't heard from or seen their (Church in Wales) ministry team leader since Covid.
A text, or phone call means the world to people.....even a general email.....
The "UK Church Decline" website does indeed make depressing reading. However I am not entirely convinced by his analysis of the results. He suspects that "the decline of the traditional churches and the embrace of progressive ideology have the same cause", i.e. "a lukewarm attachment to confessional Christianity" and a vision of religion "more in human terms than divine terms".
ReplyDeleteThat sounds "cut and dried", but I'm not sure he's necessarily making the right links. I wonder if the reasons for decline are actually attributable to other factors he mentions, plus of course the secularisation of society as a whole? It's notable that it's the older denominations that are declining while the newer ones are growing; there is a well-known paradigm which suggests that all societies and organisations tend to lose their enthusiasm and impetus over time. Thinking of the Christian Church, is that because the newer denominations haven't yet lost the memory of evangelism and conversion? Is it because their doctrinal distinctiveness gives them a greater sense of identity? Is it (dare I say it on this page) because their worship is more lively, their preaching more dynamic, their leaders more enthusiastic, their publicity more appealing?
I'm sure that there are many reasons for church growth and decline. However one must beware, when making statistical analyses, in seeing correlations as necessarily being "cause and effect". (As this amusing website shows, it's easy to find spurious correlations everywhere: https://www.tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations). So: the traditional denominations are declining - that's true. And many of the traditional denominations are moving towars same-sex marriage? Also true. But you can't then deduce that one is the consequence of the other without more stringent analysis of the causative factors. The correlation may in fact be due to the effect of outside factors which haven't been brought into discussion, or may be purely coincidental.
In my view - and I believe that there are statistics to prove this - the most important factors in church growth are: members being enthusiastic, holding strongly to their beliefs (even liberal ones), and actively engaging in mission (which they clearly won't do if they feel that sharing the Gospel is unimportant or embarrassing, or if they feel that "it's the clergy's job"). I'm not at all convinced that the issues which are frequently advanced on this site as reasons for decline (same-sex marriage, female clergy) are contributory factors; indeed, while some may leave the Church because they disagree with its position these matters, others may feel that, at last, they are able to join it.
The problem with pandering to tiny minorities is that those leaving outweigh any joining by a massive margin and hence the terminal decline.
Deletehttps://churchmodel.org.uk/church-growth-models/limited-enthusiasm/demographics-2/church-in-wales-2000-2019/
DeleteAs suggested here, although I predict terminal collapse before 2038.
@ Baptist Trainfan;
Delete'In my view ... the most important factors in church growth are: members being enthusiastic, holding strongly to their beliefs ... and actively engaging in mission (which they clearly won't do if they feel that sharing the Gospel is unimportant or embarrassing, or if they feel that "it's the clergy's job".
I think that's a perceptive insight, which certainly accords with my experience in my now rather distant observant Anglican days. I remember hearing or reading - I forget which! - some cynic observing that in many Anglican - and quite possibly also other - congregations, the conventional extent of lay ministry was to observe what was being done, and either cheer or boo, according to personal sentiment!
On this topic, I'd recommend a book by Fr James Malone called 'Divine Renovations'. He's a Roman Catholic parish priest in Canada - Nova Scotia, I think - who writes of his various parochial experiences around this issue, and how he's sought to resolve them. It's a recent publication and still in print, and I found it one of the most realistic, stimulating and positive Christian books which I've read for quite some time.
@ John Ellis: of course I (although raised CofE) come from a tradition which has always encouraged, in fact depends upon, lay involvement - the active "priesthood of all believers". Indeed our view of ordination, probably alien and "ultra-low" to many on this blog, would lead to far less distinction between clergy and lay roles.
DeleteYes, I read that before posting.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-61252364
ReplyDeleteAnother Church in Wales success story - not!
Tempora mutantur - and not for the better.
DeleteThough the distribution and geographical situation of many a church building in rural Wales represents the needs and circumstances of the 6th and 7th century AD rather than those of the 21st.
There's a cynical story circulating around my area of Roman Catholics expressing gratitude for the reformation because had that not occurred they, rather than the Church in Wales, would be saddled with the dilemma of what to do with the multiplicity of declining rural churches.
Tin hats on everyone and stay clear of the electric fan. Whisper in these parts is that the highly offensive photo of ++Andrew released by the C-in-W and illustrated in AB's site is now in the hands of an astonished journalist who is following through. And apparently - I stress 'apparently' - not the first time +Andy has been captured in similar Monty Python p**s-taking of his office. Any blog-posters in the Conwy area of the Bangor Dioc. might fill in the blank?
ReplyDeleteThere was of course the downfall and disgrace of HRH Andrew having posed with some pouting-lipped your lady ... now the saga of Andrew (II) and his photo-madness.
Time will tell. If anything does come of the media/press interest in this, I can't wait for 'TP' to return with his justification for such crass stupidity.
Ad Clerum
TP here - it's a picture that captures the happiness of a family on the Archbishop's big day - if you are offended by that, then so be it. What journalist would be remotely astonished - amused, perhaps, but astonished? Don't be so daft.
DeleteTP
Any happiness at such an event is not the issue TP, as you are clearly incapable of grasping.
DeleteI see childish moronic stupidity and not happiness.
But even that would be forgivable were taking place in his back garden rather than the Sanctuary and immediately in front of the Holy table.
As my friends in the USA are in the habit of saying, you can't teach stupid.
Its not what any particular journalist thinks that matters TP - astonished, amused, bemused etc - its what readers of the Press will make of it. And you seem to have better insight than I or others in knowing the identity of the buxom ladies in the photo. Family eh? Who'd have guessed! But does it matter. It's the Archishop's behaviour that's under scrutiny here. Let's assume the photo was of a chief constable in full uniform alongside his dim-witted 'groupies' contorting their faces in mockery inside the Old Bailey and the place of a high court judge how long do you reckon he would survive before being charged with 'Contempt of Court' and/or 'Bringing his office and Police into disrepute' ... ? Resignation would be almost immediate. Would you think the Press would be 'daft' to report it?
ReplyDeleteLet's see what comes of it TP. Maybe nothing. But of all previous AB postings, it seems you are currently outnumbered 30-1. Meanwhile I look forward to news of a sequel to 'The Life of Brian' and the casting of a certain Andrew John for lead role.
Ad Clerum
Pleased to be outnumbered on this blog - badge of honour.
ReplyDeleteTP
This is unworthy of the office of Archbishop of Wales and an insult to the sacraments and to communicants. He should consider resignation.
ReplyDeleteMiller
Utter nonsense - this is a happy photograph that captures the Archbishop in a relaxed moment with his friends and family. Move on.
DeleteTP
It's the chocolate teapot Randy Pandy that needs to move on with you right behind him.
DeleteIgnorancet and/or stupidity are by no means badges of honour but despite being so popular nowadays are very rarely to be found on AB's blog.
@ TP:
DeleteYou're simply regurgitating, in a different context, what Bunter's advocates in the UK political arena churn out over 'partygate'.
I'm disinclined to do so, both in this context and in the other. Vacuous and stupid is vacuous and stupid. All there is to it.
I totally disagree with you all. It’s a comically captured moment on what was a movingly momentous day. Trust you saddos to see ill in it!!’ Move on, get a grip and get out more. Utter childish stupidity from the lot of you.
ReplyDeleteTP
In an army of a thousand TP would be the only one marching in step.
DeleteYes it was such a moving day as many have moved out of the church in Wales as a result, myself included.
DeleteAnd marching off without a map t'boot !
ReplyDeleteOld Bill
TP is probably that most dangerous of sorts....., a Rupert with a map and compass 😂
Delete@ Laughing Gas
ReplyDeletePoint taken 'Sir'; but you're being unfair to young officer Ruperts. To become a Rupert one first has to satisfy Pre-RCB, then the Regular Commissions Board (RCB), then pre-entry RMA Sandhurst that you are capable of 'rational thinking' and possess 'aptitude' in situational analysis. TP, on basis of his current AB's post and most previous subject contributions suggests he'd fail at the start-post. One wonders in which mad-cap direction he'd march/process his archbishop ++Andrew John if he we were trusted as cross-bearer - with or without map and compass - as Acolyte. Still, every Regiment has its joker and the Army and the columns of AB comments would be a sadder place without them. Now off for a lunchtime 'Yomp'
Old Bill
I am fully aware of all you describe old Bill, but also that some do "slip through the net".
DeleteFollowing my own time at RMAS, I had the misfortune to meet a couple and witnessing more than one JNCO removing the aforementioned map and compass from the navigationally challenged!
Perhaps the Salvation Army might find a use for TP?
You might be right vis Salvation Army; their band perhaps? TP does seem to enjoy blowing his own trumpet and beating his bongo drum. Perhaps time for TP to stand to attention, salute, turn to the right and march off in good military order.... without pulling his tongue out at his CO and the Regimental Colours as he shuffles off. As for his CO, the Archbishop of Wales, he too might learn from the maxim and ethos of Army officers: "Serve to lead ... and lead by example". My contributions to this AB subject now closed.
ReplyDeleteOld Bill
Nerver trust a Tory. So Sue Gray has proved Bishop Joanna to be accurate in her tweets!!! Trust you’ll all apologise for maligning her. Numpties the lot if you!!
ReplyDeleteTP
I would have no difficulty with DodoJo pontificating if she'd said "Never never never trust a politician" but one of her problems is that she is a politician and not a Bishop..
DeleteAnd of course TP must also be certain of the political persuasions of all the civil servants involved in "Partygate", although why Tory civil servants would be blowing the gaff and having interviews with journalists is beyond me.
I want to know why the Met aren't investigating and fining all those present at Corbyn's dinner for 9 during the rule of 6?
Starmer and Rayner are living in a glass house too. E
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61653909
DeleteWell, well, look what's just appeared.
More grist to the mill!
Deletehttps://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61781601
Another Champagne socialist caught up in sleaze.
Never, never never trust a politician.
Of any variety.
More evidence that the Labour and Conservative parties don't hold a monopoly on sleaze.
Deletehttps://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61798663
Never, never, never trust a politician.
Of any variety.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-61848134
DeleteQuestionnaures completed.
Now the fun begins.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-61864936
DeleteYet another champagne socialist who can't report his financial interests in accordance with the rules.
Cat got your tongue Toilet Paper?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-61994020
DeleteMore SNP sleaze this time.
Still no response from Twisted Perspective!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-62030355
DeleteThis one seems to have got away with it - for now!
@ Laughing Gas
ReplyDeleteStrewth ! I'd only just re-sheathed my Infantry sword into its scabbard and up pops Kilroy over the parapet again. Is this the same TP who in previous AB blog promised all that he'd wind his neck in?
Perhaps when AB opens up the next new subject then in the interest of global power-reduction (electricity and hot air) we all hang-fire until the embittered TP has vented his views, chastised all as Evil and idiots and numpties, de-bowels himself of venom then we can continue sensibly without his banal interruptions. Meanwhile, I have it on good authority that the Pope is a Tory.
Old Bill ('Sir')
Wind my neck in? I was being ironic. This site is a crock of the proverbial - utter nastiness from one blog entry to another. Same old, same old.
ReplyDeleteTP
On a slightly different note....this is interesting.......https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10840691/amp/Black-priest-Calvin-Robertson-said-Britain-NOT-racist-country-BLOCKED-priest.html
ReplyDeleteSorry about this folks, but did any of you know that in medical terms, TP is acronym for Tongue Protrusion - which seems apt - and you military subscribers will already know TP is Target Practice for TP's pot-shots. TP is also Toilet Paper and in psychology Templer Pedic (which is a method of getting people to sleep). Oddly, that great British author of fantasy and science fiction writing is also a TP: Terry Pratchett. The list goes on, but from me that other 'TP' is appropriate, Termination Point.
ReplyDeleteAd Clerum
You omitted Total P***s. 😂
DeleteTP means “think positive”. You lot need to begin to see the positive you nasty brood of vipers and shameless bunch of whitewashed tombs.
ReplyDeleteTP
Oh bless. TP seems to be addicted to this site.
ReplyDeleteUnison Off.
Nah - just pop by to see how nasty and small minded folk are. Makes me feel better about being me. Sad bunch.
DeleteTP
Just like a bluebottle, can't keep away from the crock of cr*p eh?
DeleteYou got it big boy
DeleteTP
Speaking of disaster, did anyone else hear the crap music in Llandaff Cathedral this weekend?
ReplyDeleteNo choir in the morning and possibly the worst guest choir in history this afternoon.
Could anyone work out whose responses they were trying to sing?
Quite soon after the current Archbishop and the erstwhile Mrs John arrived in Bangor, the latter was talking to a clergy wife about the daily running routine from Ty'r Esgob. Andy has to go running each day, she vouchsaved, because it's the only way he can get rid of all his aggression.
ReplyDeleteClearly, he hasn't been running often enough because there is more than a decade of chronicled evidence of him unleashing his agression on those with whom he disagrees or whose superior intelligence causes him to feel threatened.
Watch this space for further installments.
I wonder if Medwyn can enlighten us as to which Mrs John is the "erstwhile " Mrs John? We know of at least two. As for "getting rid of aggression" what became of prayer, meditation, spiritual exercise and living a good and holy life?
Deletehttps://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/archbishop-criticised-being-group-pulling-24050504
ReplyDeleteYou have made it into the news once more Ancient Briton.
Well done Sir.
REMINDER
ReplyDeleteWould commentators please note that 'Anonymous' comments submitted for publication must include a pseudonym.
I had an unexpected visit from a very old friend yesterday. Her response to seeing the above photograph was to ask "Aren't Gargoyles supposed to be on a Cathedral's exterior?"
ReplyDelete