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| The newly enthroned Archbishop of Wales, the Most Revd Andrew John Source: Church Times |
'There are good and kind and faithful priests in the Church in Wales but the Holy Spirit has withdrawn from its leadership'.
That is the conclusion of the Rev George Conger, journalist and parish priest, speaking on Anglican Unscripted [Edition 730 starting at position 30.25].
George Conger has has been described by the Daily Telegraph 'the most knowledgeable reporter covering the Anglican world today'.
He said: "The trajectory downwards of the Church in Wales has been a long time coming, starting with 'political operator', Barry Morgan, who 'put buddies into positions of influence and authority, including bishops. Barry Morgan said we are going to have women bishops, we are going to have gay bishops, and sure enough they appointed women bishops and a lesbian bishop."
Attendance continues to decline, he says, with a collection of bishops who are 'just appalling' in their 'lack of pastoral sensitivity' and their 'lack of practical theology' while parish priests are left to care for up to seven or eight parishes.
The sad records of the bishops of St Davids and of Llandaff do not escape Conger's attention but his main condemnation was reserved for the new primate, Andy John, who claims that the Church in Wales in five years is going to have gay marriage and the bishops are pushing the Church in that direction. It is a case of the bishops pushing until the rest of the Church in the form of the Governing Body 'comes along side', he says.
It was the 'road to perdition'.
What an arrogant ting to say! Far from "the most knowledgeable reporter covering the Anglican world today", he shows himself to be out of touch and short on humility. Foolish.
ReplyDeleteTP
And 'TP' assumes to be a better judge of good journalism than the Daily Telegraph (or in Saint David's, the Torygraph not to be trusted etc). Humility in the demise of the C-in-W is irrelevant. The Rev. George Conger reports factually on the downturn of the C-in-W and assessment of how this has happened. There's no 'fake news' there. And of ++Andy's prediction/hope that there will be gay marriages in five years time? Why five years? The evidence is in the pews TP. In five years time the bulk of what's left of the membership (congregants) will have by age departed this earth and those who remain probably too tired to argue. Its nothing to do with Focus Groups or consultations etc., its simply the demographics and our bent-bench of Bishop's preparedness to sit-it-out until there's no one left to object and Bishops so self-importantly bullying that those with voices will simply capitulate. But back to TP and his possible envy that the Rev. George Conger outsmarts him and thus be ignored as an intelligent observer of matters, oh how I wish the Rev. Conger were contributor to AB's blog site. That would liven things up a trifle. Intellect, honesty and questioning is what our failing disestablished Church needs. We appear to have too many Nodding Donkeys.
ReplyDeleteOld Bill
Ouch. Just to double check my previous I've looked up the Rev. Canon George Conger in case I had done TP disservice. I urge any other contributors to do likewise. Wow.
ReplyDeleteI suggested how it would be revealing to have him contribute to AB site. How I now wish that someone with gumption had invited Conger to sit in place of the Rt Rev. Lord Harries in the latter's wishy-washy review of the C-in-W. Conger is certainly no 'fool' TP.
Old Bill
Hi Old Bill. I don't consider you to have done me a disservice at all. I just find Conger a tedious ecclesiastical politician. Watch his worship videos on Youtube - uninspiring to say the least.
DeleteTP
REMINDER
ReplyDelete'Anonymous' comments for publication must include a pseudonym.
Is my computer or web browser playing up? I can't see or find your latest caption competition now Ancient Briton.
DeleteTechnical hitch or censorship?
No need to worry 1662. The entry was removed.
DeleteRemoved by whom and for what reason(s)? Perhaps that is even greater cause for concern and one sincerely hopes you weren't censored or bullied into removing it yourself AB?
DeleteNeither Episkopos. Thank you for your concern.
DeleteIf you haven't removed that thread AB, then who did?
DeleteWho or what has such power over the blogosphere?
His Darkness Bully boy --Bazza believes he does. 😂
DeleteConger: yes, excellently informed about church affairs worldwide, although I agree, sadly, his evangelical services are offputting - to me, at least.
ReplyDeleteI doubt if he could equal AB's blog.
Rob
We live in hope that this may turn out to be a short archbishopric. I’m told that Wife Number One, along with Wife Number Two’s ex-husband, contacted the former Archbishop with allegations about the couple’s extracurricular activities. Does anyone on here know Wife Number One, or the ex-husband, well enough to confirm?
ReplyDeleteych a fi
Randy Pandy would know but somehow I doubt the chocolate teapot is a contributor.
DeleteI would doubt very much that Caroline (unfortunate wife No. 1) has it in her heart, soul or lovely persona to be so vindictive. Curiously enough I saw her only recently and she looks 20 years younger, happier and certainly far different from the Caroline who had to carry the burdens and in Bangor even stigma of being Andy's wife that she'd so often try to defend. No such pressures on her now ... but again, knowing this lovely lady although not socially, I would doubt if there's an ounce of nastiness in her. Andy: Yes. Wife No. 1: No. At the time of the Ulster 'Troubles' tit-for-tat revenge killings there was an expression: "If you seek retribution - dig two graves". That's not Caroline's style. We should all share our delight that she got out while still young enough to restructure her life. And rumour-mongering ought not to be our thing either.
ReplyDeleteAd Clerum
'Evening all ...
ReplyDeleteOn good authority, Caroline John (the victim former wife of alleged adultering Archbishop) was at Eucharist/Bangor Cathedral this morning and as Ad Clerum had noted from earlier, apparently looking 20 years younger post-nuptules. I wasn't there, but apparently super warm welcome from fellow congregants on what is reported to have been her first visit back to Bangor since bidding ++Andrew his deserved goodbye. As 'Old Bill' might suggest, I trust my 'snouts'. One wonders what brought her back to Bangor but who cares.
Old Bill
Perhaps her beloved children and dogs?
DeleteBerwyn
Is it kind to write such personal references on a public blog? Would you, Old Bill, like your comings and goings to be publicised? As a private person, surely she deserves to go about her life anonymously?
DeleteDom
Nothing at all kind about those who blog here. Evil.
DeleteTP
Including yourself?
DeleteNot me
DeleteTP
Naturally not.
DeletePompous ass.
REMINDER
ReplyDeleteForgive me for repeating myself but 'Anonymous' comments for publication must include a pseudonym.
I will try to stick to the subject of this thread and Mr Conger's comments.
ReplyDeleteI'm assuming that he says what he says because, within a Church that values its catholicity, the future is never determined by one person, especially not in a Church with a synodical polity. The Holy Spirit is not a weapon of either progressives or traditionalists, but the living presence of God who enables the Church as a whole to be renewed by (what the theologian Henri de Lubac described as) continually revisiting the sources in order to discover the future.
My anxiety with the current Archbishop (like his recent predecessors) is that he cannot inspire any confidence that he is really rooted in those sources, giving rather insecure foundations to his future plans. His rather flimsly grasp on scripture and tradition, so evident from his preaching and other public pronouncements, leaves me in no doubt that he is hardly insightful when it comes to understanding the nature of the Church, let alone the social and cultural millieu in which it is set. In other words, does he really understand (and inhabit) the world the Church in Wales is called to serve?
Undoubtedly, he has some grasp of what it means to steer the CinW's internal agenda (or, more correctly, the agenda that he has inherited), and how that agenda serves the needs of the institution. But that is only a small part of what the Church is called to be. And while his fan club is busy applauding him, mainly because his agenda works for them; a considerable mass of people will remain alienated from the Church's (largely ineffective) mission.
So yes, Mr Conger, even though I'm not necessarilly coming from the same place as you, I recognise the strenth of your conclusions. Inexorable decline is the direction of travel.
All agreed, AR.
DeleteHowever, George Conger is entirely wrong in stating that the Church in Wales 'has lost the Holy spirit'.
The sad reality is that the Church in Wales has been and continues to walk away from the Holy spirit, quite deliberately in a process that has been going on for many decades.
As described on earlier AB threads, the rot has been present since at least the time of Glyn Simon but Barry Morgan certainly did everything he possibly could to hasten the process of decay and ensure it was irreversible.
I agree with you entirely Subversive Canon.
DeleteThe Church in Wales turned its back on the Holy Ghost a long time ago and the result is the desolation we see today.
It's interesting that there was no comment about ++Andy saying that he was not political. Then typically he went on to criticise the government while offering no options on how he would deal with illegal migrants risking their lives in dinghies. The entire Bench only ever criticise one political party, which shows how out of touch they are with the pew sitters who span most political parties. Of course he is political and party specific political.
ReplyDeleteI too note the umpteen occasions when ++Andrew has revealed his true political colours both from the pulpit and in the press. But he did once dip his toe into the matter of immigrants - mainly economic migrants - and typically, got it wrong. Hark back to 2016 when publicity-loving +Andrew considered it a brilliant wheeze for self-promotion to headline himself as the champion of the Calais 'Jungle' even fundraising a Snowdon marathon run for more photo-opportunities to keep the Jungle alive, fed and watered. What he failed to take into account - or his local PR Guru turned RNLI 'lifeboatman' - failed to tell him was that both the then Bishop of Dover, the Rt. Rev. Trevor Willmott and the Catholic Bishop of Arras (the Pas de Norde/Calais area), Jean-Paul Jaeger had already recognised that the 'Jungle' simply had to be demolished. Alternatives might have been uncomfortable to palate, but at least far more humane and 'Christian' than continuance of Jungle conditions where serious criminality, squalor and abuse had taken over. +Andrew plodded on to his shame and eventually, to his being silenced on the subject.
ReplyDeletePlease, let's not encourage this opportunist to exercise his half-cock thoughts onto the very serious matter of immigration again. Bad enough having him lead the Church-in-Wales ... woe betides if we give him a voice on matters of more seriousness.
Ad Clerum
There's nothing we can do to prevent the clanging gong or the clashing cymbals sounding off, but ridicule and pillory are often a very effective antidote to such rubbish which is why Darth --Insidious had the Llandaffchester Chronicles closed (by blackmail I believe) and why he's desperate to have AB's blog shut down too.
DeleteI disagree. What ++Andrew did to raise money for the Jungle was about meeting immediate human need. What did you do Ad Clerum? I sponsored him - not a huge amount - buy compassion got the better of me as it did him.
DeleteTP
I call bullshit!
DeleteRandy Pandy was virtue signalling, nothing more.
DeleteHow many refugees has he had to live with him?
Like a pigeon, all chirp and BS.
Has he had as many as you have had, Exodus? Did you actually contribute to the fund-raising to meet the immediate humanitarian need? You're clearly someone who gives lots to charity given your critical comment on the Archbishop i.e. more than virtue signalling your end? Then, perhaps, maybe not. I doubt many people who are supporters of this blog give much to the cause of the poor and the vulnerable. I hope I am wrong.
DeleteTP
Matthew, chapter 6 verse 2.
DeleteIn this and previous of your comments, I have detected a menace or a wish to use AB's site to vent-off and perhaps against me personally. Read, learn and inwardly digest. I didn't suggest +Andrew was misled in getting others (including you) to give to him to fund the welfare of immigrants most of whom (proved positive) were economic migrants evading recognised entry protocols. I said that he was at odds with senior bishops closer to the politics and social dreadfulness of the place. He failed to properly research the situation as he continues to fail to understand his Provincial parish. Not that is any of your business TP (or should I mis-spell that TCP), but I was then and had been for some time, part of the Kent Impact Study through which I spoke personally and at length with Bishop Trevor (Dover) to understand his position on the ;Jungle' and support for its closure and from my own private savings between 2012 and 2014 fully funded a young family of Iraqi Kurds caught in the central-belt of ISIL/ISIS horror to buy a new home, place their five year old English-speaking daughter into a safe British school in Irbil, work with the British Consulate in Kurdistan to get their dad a secure job as a University lecturer and - with my money again - open a bank account into which they could and still can dip in for emergency without my consent. I wrote cheques when the churches in Menai Bridge begged for support to rehouse Syrian refugees in Ynys Mon. I suggest you wind your neck in or begin to understand who some of AB's contributors are.
ReplyDeleteLastly TP, I note that it was you who began AB's current issue by personalising aggression against the Rev. Canon George Conger as 'a fool' and 'arrogant' then went on to accuse other contributors as 'Evil' because they didn't see it quite like you.
So yeah. TCP. Take a good gargle before you vent off with no inkling of what you're talking about or the backgrounds of persons you unwisely try and ridicule.
Ad Clerum
Glad you have supported in ways that are generous and practical. That said, I thought your swipe at the Archbishop and his fund-raising was misplaced and lacking. But I'll wind my neck in!
DeleteTP
Again I refer you to the above biblical reference.
DeleteTo think we've gone from Rowan Williams to this. Any more words are futile.
ReplyDelete++Andy isn't alone in paying scant regards to 'facts' before launching into PR and fundraising wheezes Ad Clerum. Predecessor ++Barry took the biscuit by circulating an appeal to be read in churches throughout all C-in-W reporting the terrible news that the dastardly Israelis had bombed and obliterated a C-in-W funded and sponsored dental clinic over the border in Palestine. Please, please, he begged, dig deeply into your pockets so he/we (Barry and pals of the Palestinian cause) can rebuild it. Many people did. Some were less convinced. A check with both Reuters news agency and the FCO and neither could throw light on ++Barry's 'fake news'. No such incident had happened. Did Anna Morrell the Archbishop's press secretary do the 'essential journalistic fact-checking' first? Presumably not. Did the gullible parishioners who'd dug into the meagre OAP pots to folk out get their money back? Who knows. Did ++Barry apologies? Fat chance.
ReplyDeleteThat's your Welsh archbishops for you !!
Old Bill
The Bangor Diocese website used to have a page dedicated to anti-Semitism and the PLO cause. I understand that messages to the 'Arab & Jewish Affairs' officer (not sure if that's the correct title) at Canterbury resulted in its removal.
DeleteWell, if you want to make sure something (e.g. a province in the A C) is damaged and destroyed, you set yourself up as antisemitic. The Lord does not forget those he chose, and he made an everlasting covenant with Abraham and Israel. We'd do well to remember that.
DeleteAn Increasingly Fed-Up Anglican
Before AB closes this subject, may I say 'Exodus' that Matthew 6:2 is an excellent retort.
ReplyDeleteBut in more recent times, TP might also learn from the wisdom of that generous philanthropist and self-made billionaire, J Henry Ford: "It's easier to make money than it is to give it away wisely" which is one reason I employ wisdom before falling for ++Andrew's wheezes.
As for TP. Yeah. He took a swipe at me too questioning how much charity I give and it backfired on him. At least he had the decency to assure that he'd "wind his neck in". Pity he then took a pot shot at you. Obviously a bad aim.
Ad Clerum
It's just that I don't see much generosity on this blog towards others - contributions are demeaning and critical and arrogant. It made me wonder - if contributors are less than generous with their words, how generous are they in their giving and philanthropy? Logic tells me that many - perhaps most- are probably as mean with their money too. Just a hunch.
ReplyDeleteTP
The only comments I have seen are critical of the morons on the plank of the Church in Wales or Cathedral Deans who have been demeaning of and arrogant towards members of their flocks, all of which have been well earned.
DeleteThe notion of you winding in your neck is an excellent one, when is it due to begin?
Well said Sir!
DeleteWhen you wind yours Enoch. Ruth - you too.
DeleteTP.
10th May 2022, 17:20.
DeleteDoes "TP" stand for "The Pillock" perhaps?