Many regular Sunday church attenders will be feeling lost following the closure of churches in accordance with government instructions on defeating the spread of the coronavirus. In time of need they are denied the comfort of Holy Communion and fellowship.
Many of us have been there for years. Effectively excommunicated, orthodox Anglicans have in many areas been left with no church to attend, especially in Wales where the Assistant Provincial Bishop David Thomas was not replaced following his retirement in 2008.
My experience of virtual services has not been inspiring, unlike the above video link which was sent to me by a well wisher.
We have lost so much.
“Women of Jerusalem, do not shed your tears for me, but for yourselves and for your children! For the days are coming when men will say, ‘Lucky are the women who are childless—the bodies which have never borne, and the breasts which have never given nourishment.’ Then men will begin ‘to say to the mountains, Fall on us! and to the hills, Cover us!’ For if this is what men do when the wood is green, what will they do when it is seasoned?”
Luke 23:28-31
Luke 23:28-31
It will only make a difference to some 20,000 people in the whole of Wales. Not much of a loss really.
ReplyDeleteOn the contrary, an immeasurable loss, chump!
ReplyDeleteAfter all, the action is only postponing the inevitable to help the NHS cope.
Rob
Not going to a shite rite service for a few weeks, not much of a loss.
DeleteLiving beyond the imminent demise of the Church in Wales, priceless.
Trumped, chump.
'... unlike the above video link.'
ReplyDeleteI agree with you entirely; western ears can appreciate Slavic liturgical music rather more readily than they can cope with the music of the Byzantine and oriental Orthodox traditions.
If I remember rightly, we can thank Czar Peter I 'the Great' for that; I seem to recall that his relentless and often brutal attempt to 'westernize' Russian life in all its aspects in the early part of the 18th century led to German Lutheran church music exercising some influence on the traditional liturgical music of the Russian church.
And out of that unlikely melding the glorious cadences of the Slavonic church music of later times, typified on this clep, developed. But Matthew would know more about that than I do.
Thanks John Ellis, but I'm no expert. Purists would like to see a wholesale return to Byzantine chant, and report that if people make the effort it's a more suitable vehicle for the words of the liturgy. Here is a very recent example from just beyond the Welsh border: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=no13tDmrxTg (fast forward to the last 1/3 or so for the Divine Liturgy). The tradition represented by your clip is certainly absorbed more naturally by western ears, though it's also very easy to do badly -- just as Anglican-chanted psalms sound heavenly when sung (especially with imaginative organ accompaniment) by an English cathedral choir, but not always quite so heavenly when struggled through at a thinly-attended Evensong in a remote country church (I would argue that so-called Gregorian chant is the natural musical medium for western liturgy, although in my Anglican days I rarely had the opportunity to put this into practice). This article doesn't mention the Lutheran influence but I'm sure you're right about that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_liturgical_music.
Delete@ Matthew:
DeleteI think in truth that it's pretty easy to do any musical rendering badly - though ever since I heard someone exploring, very convincingly, the notion that 'if a thing's worth doing, it's definitely worth doing badly, presumaming that it's the best you can do, rather than not doing it at all', I've tried to rein in reflex censorious reactions!
The social media website MySpace used to host a clip of the choir of Christ the Saviour Cathedral in Moscow singing the Great Litany on a major festival, which was utterly sublime; Youtube on the other hand still has, I think, a series of clips of the Divine Liturgy, naturally in Russian style, from a little congregation in Nagasaki which, aesthetically, was less so.
But then the former is a pretty professional outfit in a part of the world where the church is back in favour, and the latter a small church in an overwhelmingly non-Christian culture who very evidently, to judge from the evident devotion, were offering the very best that they could. Not entirely unlike your comparison of Anglican Evensongs!
In my Anglican days the only context in which I regularly experienced Gregorian chant was at the singing of the GSS office - that too can sometimes feel less than celestial! Though I recall a Guild chapter organist of extraordinary sensitivity and musical ability who, recognizing the musical limitations of local Guild members, used to accompany everything, expertly but very quietly, just to keep us on track and thereby help to extract from us the very best, liturgically speaking, of which we were capable ...
Ah. Samuel in his linen ephod. Not quite what I had in mind (antiphons belong to the professionals) --think of simple things like Credo I or normal psalm tones.
Delete@ Mstthew:
DeleteFair point!
Ancient Briton - who have you offended at the BBC. Last Sunday they dressed up an old episode of Songs of Praise from St David's Cathedral and rehashed it as Morning Worship. This morning, ditto, Bangor Cathedral. Are they going for a hattrick with Llandaff at some point?!
ReplyDeleteI agree entirely with the TV critic in the Church Times:
<>
This morning I went back to my Strict Baptist roots and watched Oedfa on S4C.
Cymraes yn Lloegr
Songs of Praise at Llandaff Cathedral?
DeleteNow therein lies a good tale.
Read up on the events of April and May 2013 on Ancient Briton's venerable blog.
You will not be disappointed.
My wife - who is learning Welsh - watches "Dechrau Canu" each week.
DeleteI was wondering if the BBC services will all be from CinW churches? If so, many Christians from other traditions will feel left out (though yesterday's service wasn't particularly Anglican!) If they only broadcast from churches where they have previously recorded "Songs of Praise", it will restrict their options, especially if lockdown goes on for a long time. I do appreciate though that they have had to put this together at short notice and with a minimum of staff, so let's not be too critical.
Oops the quote from the Church Times in my comment somehow disappeared.
DeleteHere it is:
IS THIS really the best that the BBC can offer? We raised a cheer when it
announced that, in this unprecedented crisis, it would broadcast a
Sunday morning service led by the Archbishop of Canter bury. The
small print showed it to be, at best, a slight gesture. The broadcast was not
live. It went out initially on local radio, and the only TV version I
eventually found was on YouTube. Search BBC iplayer for “Archbishop
of Canterbury”: every clip is marked unavailable. Why wasn’t it
broadcast on a main channel? Why wasn’t it live? Our cathedral here in
Canterbury and many parish churches managed to live-screen
eucharists for Mothering Sunday, despite the necessary restrictions:
why can’t our national broadcaster do better than them?
BBC1 did offer a service, at 11.45 a.m. broadcast from St Davids
Cathedral. The Dean led a hymn sandwich with an admirable blessing
of Mothering Sunday flowers, and fine addresses and prayers, all
against gorgeous images of that magnificent building. But the music
was from a previous broadcast of, alas, Songs of Praise...And what was Archbishop
Welby’s service actually like? First impressions were unpromising.
Choir dress (was it a chimere?), more black than white, spoke not of
a generous and loving God, but of Calvin’s Geneva, stern and condemnatory.
Couldn’t the sacristy at Lambeth provide a rose-coloured
stole, to wear with alb? Lighting a series of candles on the
altar for specific prayer topics was a good idea, but not if you employ
tiny votive lights that are impossible to ignite with dignity. The beautiful
crypt chapel encourages prayer and meditation, but it’s austere and bare.
Surely flowers, Refreshment Sunday colour, would have warmed it up
and made it more inviting to enquiring non-aficionados? Yet, the Archbishop’s
words were moving, and must have offered consolation and
inspiration. So, content: splendid; presentation: must try harder.
Cymraes yn Lloegr
@ Cymraes yn Lloegr - Not a chimere, rather a chimera.
DeleteHave you noticed how disagreeable and politically correct is the CinWs' official video to mark the Church's hundred years? I am surprised at the presenter.
ReplyDeleteDominic
I noticed no such thing
DeleteCymro
Me neither. I can't be bothered to watch it.
DeleteYes, the usual tripe about being open to same sex unions. Lots about social activism but as to eternal life and spiritual regeneration...
ReplyDeleteJonesy
For the benefit of readers Jonesy this appears to be the video that has been referred to https://zh-cn.facebook.com/ChurchinWales/videos/100-years-of-the-church-in-wales/1395111327334969/
DeleteTo bring the topic back on track to AB's blog; the stinging indictment against the CiW is that it was always claimed that the PAB was too costly, even though he was on an archdeacon's stipend, rather than an episcopal stipend. Since the demise of the PAB's post, the CiW has appointed three extra archdeacons; one each in Llandaff, Monmouth and Bangor. If the CiW could not afford one extra archdeacon's stipend for the PAB, how has it managed to find three when it suited? The PAB's "diocese" covered the whole of Wales, whilst the three new archdeacons have archdeaconries which, at one time, were covered by an archdeacon with a much larger archdeaconry, more clergy and more parishioners. Whilst I personally, have no problem with women's ministry, I can fully understand the hurt of those who feel excommunicated on the basis of lies. The only consolation for you is to sit back and watch the CiW collapse. With stocks and shares tumbling on a daily basis, the block grant to dioceses from the RB will cease; parishes will not be able to make up the shortfall, and the CiW will implode. This is what comes of faithlessness, disobedience and an "I know better than God" attitude - the good Lord will remove the lampstand from its place.
ReplyDeleteSeymour
Way back in the 1950s, when the late Freddie Grisewood still hosted 'Any Questions' and Radio 4 was still the BBC 'Home Service', I remember a remarkably penetrating question being put to the A.Q. panel: 'At what point in the social hierarchy does juvenile thuggery become youthful high spirits?'
DeleteIn like manner, now looking in on the Welsh province as an outsider, I'm left wondering just 'At what point in the Welsh ecclesiatical hierarchy do the recommendations of the Church in Wales Review which prompted "2020 Vision" cease to apply?' The relevant part of Bishop Cameron's summary of the Harries review states:
'Diocesan administration should be reduced to three centres. Dioceses served by these centres should also form joint committees. The northern administrative centre could also take on provincial responsibility to match those areas covered by the Welsh Government departments based in Llandudno. After three years, consideration should be given to the creation of three dioceses, served by three diocesan and four Area Bishops.'
... and ...
'The Archiepiscopal See should be permanently located in Llandaff. The Archbishop should be assisted by an Area Bishop, and by a Vice-Chair of Bench.'
Whereas the reality appears to be that implementation of the drastic changes recommended by Harries et al. appears to have stopped abruptly at the level of what was formerly the rural deanery, that the echelons above have remained and seemingly will remain unchanged, and indeed that archdeacons proliferate like buttercups on untended ground!
In a hierarchical system the danger of the Church coming to be subtly perceived primarily as a career structure for clerics has been ever present. As far as I can see, the Harries review has done nothing to address that tendency, but has rather served to consolidate it - particularly in terms of the roles of senior clergy.
I watched the 'short film' and felt that the word 'church' could have been replaced by any other 'institutional' word (police, education, politics etc etc) - no mention of God, Jesus Christ, eternal life, living water, Holy Spirit and so many other things that make the church DISTINCTIVE … and, as a now retired ex-CinW ENGLISH cleric, I was embarrassed at the lack of Welsh in the film! (NotGoneYet)
ReplyDeleteSeymour, if you have no problem with ordained women (quite apart from theological objections) you simply cannot have experienced it at St Davids or Llandaff! Not only a disaster but capricious, imperious, sentimental, spiteful and heterodox. Surprising coming from you.
ReplyDeleteRob
What you have to realize Rob, is that some women have a genuine call to ministry, and I have no doubt about that. They don't see ministry as a career move, but a path to serving God's people. These are not the ones who have their eyes on mitres and croziers, or red piping on their cassocks; these are the ones who humbly get on with serving the congregations in which they have been placed.
ReplyDeleteAs for theological objections, these have been rehearsed numerous times over, and neither side seems to convince the other of their arguments. So it would seem futile to rehearse them once again.
The problem, I have, is when people speak of their 'right' to be ordained; but I would have that problem even if a man said it. Ordination is not, and never has been, a right. The problem with the Church in Wales is that it has lost its way. It has become a drum-banging vehicle for every campaign in society, rather than proclaiming the one eternal Gospel. It is why those who assert their "right" to ordination find themselves being ordained; and that is why you find the kind of people in ministry who are capricious, imperious, sentimental, spiteful and heterodox - but these can be men, just as much as women. The Bishop of Bangor and the Archbishop aren't beyond those qualities if you have followed previous comments on this blog. Such people have a misguided notion of what Christianity is and, as a result, they are out simply to please themselves. The Day of Judgement is coming swiftly, and it begins with the household of faith.
Seymour
Seymour, for about twenty years I strongly advocated female ordination on grounds of equality, but I came to realise I was mistaken. God must specifically call, and Jesus pointedly did not call women to be among the twelve, although he made them the first witnesses of his resurrection. Of all people, I was influenced by the arguments of John Selwyn Gummer (who, personally does not appeal to me), so my change of mind must be genuine. The behaviour of many if the ordained women I have encountered has been careerist and stridently ambitious.
ReplyDeleteRob
Unlike you, I have never advocated ordination for women on the grounds of equality: I would advocate it on the grounds of calling. Equality is a secular notion that should have no place in the life of the Church. We will stand or fall before the judgement seat of God on our own merits, not because we are equal to somebody else.
ReplyDeleteAccording to the New Testament, apostolicity requires three criteria: (a) freedom, (b) to have seen the risen Lord, and (c) to have been sent by him (Gk: apostolos). In recent years, the Vatican has moved to give Mary Magdalene the title "Apostle to the apostles". Her feast has been granted a Class 1 designation along with the other apostles; and she has her own preface in the Canon of the Mass, which had been denied her for centuries. If this is the case, Mary Magdalene was called and sent by Jesus, which makes her an apostle, to proclaim the greatest message of all - Jesus is alive.
If you are truly honest, Rob, can you say that you have never met a male cleric who didn't have careerist or stridently ambitious tendencies? They stand out a mile. Just attend Diocesan Conference or read reports of the Governing Body, the same culprits get up trying to make a name for themselves. They are careerists.
Seymour
My dear Seymour, it appears that you are arguing that Rome has relented on the ordination of women.I seem to have missed the announcement.
ReplyDeleteRob
I suspect, Rob, that the reason that Mary Magdalene has been upgraded is to strengthen Pope Francis' hand in his push towards women's ordination. Following the dubia from the four cardinals, which countless bishops and archbishops also signed up to, the Pope seems to have backtracked a little. That being said, women have been granted places on various Pontifical Commissions, and some hold posts in the Curia. The Vatican, including the Pope, have toyed with the idea of female Cardinals, since a Cardinal is not an apostolic ministry. The sticking point on that one is a Vatican rule that Cardinals have to be Bishops, unless granted dipensation.
DeleteWhilst then, the Vatican hasn't followed through on its original suggestions, it will sit there in the background, until one day the time will be right.
Seymour
Seymour, I understand what you are saying, yet have you failed to be disillusioned with the results, especially in Wales? Your ministry certainly would not be wanted by the bishopess of St Davids, who shows indications of possessing a grudge against retired priests.
DeleteRob
P.S. By the way, I note that the present Pope is antagonising some traditionalists.
Rob, there is much about the CiW that disillusions me but I wouldn't say that women's ordination per se has disillusioned me because there are some good and genuine female priests. I also know that that there are some who have huge chips on their shoulders, and feel that they have a point to prove. By the sound of things you have a lot of them in St David's Diocese.
DeleteWhere I live, our Vicar (a man) closed his parish down out of sheer laziness. When one of our congregation was ill and at the point of death, her family asked him to go and minister to her. He refused, and the family contacted our previous incumbent who anointed her, gave her communion and blessed her. When she died, the Vicar refused to allow his predecessor into the parish to take part in her funeral. When dealing with his congregation, the Vicar's attitude was: "It is my way or the highway" and most of his congregation chose the highway. The result was that he was left with five ladies who were over 80 years of age. They couldn't be churchwardens because of the age restriction. They didn't want to be on the PCC. The parish was closed and amalgamated with its neighbour. Do you think that that is anything worse than what you have encountered.
There is good and bad in both sexes when it comes to ministry.
Seymour
Seymour, good and bad equally among men and women; that is self evident. I am sorry to learn of your exoerience, which could be matched by the way one high profile cleric misrepresents what male priests say to diocesan officials.
DeleteThe point I was making, apart from theological objections, is that the female clerics are not generally noted for possessing priestly qualities. That seems to validate the objections.
I respect your viewpoint, but I have come to believe it wrong. Sorry!
Rob
Seymour: thank you for your posts here which in fact have surprised me. In response I'd say that I do think there is a place for thinking about equality in the Church, under the "no Greek or Jew, no slave or free person" thinking of Paul in Galatians. But of course that verse is not directly relevant to ordained ministry.
ReplyDeleteWhat I do find interesting is what you say about women feeling called to ministry - and we know that some felt this even before it was actually possible! Obviously any sense of divine calling is somewhat subjective - no-one can "prove" that I am called although I realise that ordination candidates are tested in various ways. Problem is, it seems to me, is that a lady could give exactly the same responses to these tests as a man whose sense of calling is thereby confirmed - yet some would say that she must be mistaken and that God cannot be calling her because he just doesn't call women. For those who don't believe in female ordination, how is that tension - which I think could rip a person apart - to be resolved? (And please don't say that she can become a lay worker or something similar, her contention would be that she is specifically called to ordained ministry, i.e. the priesthood - although we don't use such language in my tradition).
Baptist Trainfan, I think Galatians 3: 28 is very relevant to the debate on gender in ministry. The key words are not "there is neither male nor female" which lots of people home in on; but "in Christ". We are "in Christ" if we are baptized. When we take into account Pauline theology on baptism - and we shouldn't forget that Paul was an apostle, so we are dealing with apostolic teaching - baptism brings us to the point where we lose our identity. "If anyone is in Christ, that person is a new creation, the old has gone, the new has arrived." "It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me." As we all know, it is very rare to find someone who lives out their faith to the extent where the world sees Christ in them. For these reasons, I find it hard to say to a baptized female, "God cannot be calling you to ministry". I accept that some of my brothers and sisters do find it a huge problem, and here in Wales, they have been treated badly for their conscientious objection to the move. The Bishops lulled them into a false sense of security about being looked after and valued, etc., and then pulled the rug from under their feet.
DeleteIn England, the House of Bishops have shown far greater grace than their Welsh counterparts, by their continuing appointments of "flying" bishops, even after Pope Benedict eased the path for Anglicans to move over to Rome, and still use Anglican rites in their churches.
Seymour
I suggest you all read Article XXVI at the back of you Prayer Books, which explains why the acts of God's ministers cannot be vitiated or impaired by human unworthiness.( The Thirty Nine Articles: B.J Kidd 1925)
ReplyDeleteCymro
The problem with the ordination of women in the Anglican communion and in Rome, putting aside doctrinal issues (but Jesus was a man, he told us to pray to God the Father, the disciples were all men - this doesn't seem to matter any more!), is that the Church until now has been exclusively male for centuries in all its aspects right down to architecture and apparel. Substituting women into this inevitably jars, perhaps best illustrated by the sight of an ear-ringed bishop in her mitre. I can already hear the squeals of objection, but it is so be you pro female ordination or not.
ReplyDeleteA deeper objection could be the somehow connected appointments at Newport, Llandaff and the ditziness at St Davids in the Church in Wales.
LW
LW, I maintain that if in the past there were good and valid doctrinal reasons why women ought not to be ordained, mainly that Jesus chose not to select women for a distinctive role, they still exist and remain as valid as ever.
ReplyDeleteRob
'Ditzy' only describes a tiny portion of this woman's character and lamentable behaviour. She really should take early retirement.
Pretend for a minute we all agreed on women's ordination. Shouldn't we expect the Church in Wales to select the most gifted women priests for elevation to the episcopate?
ReplyDeleteWouldn't that be a good start. Fourth time lucky maybe...
Further to what I wrote above, the Vatican has just published the following announcement:
ReplyDeleteInstitution of a new Study Commission on the female diaconate, 08.04.2020
The Holy Father, during a recent audience granted to His Eminence Cardinal Luis Francisco Ladaria Ferrer, prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, has decided to institute a new Study Commission on the female diaconate, formed of the following:
President:
His Eminence Cardinal Giuseppe Petrocchi, archbishop of L’Aquila.
Secretary:
The Reverend Denis Dupont-Fauville, official of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.
Members:
Professor Catherine Brown Tkacz, Lviv, Ukraine.
Professor Dominic Cerrato, Steubenville, United States of America.
Professor Don Santiago del Cura Elena, Burgos, Spain.
Professor Caroline Farey, Shrewsbury, Great Britain.
Professor Barbara Hallensleben, Fribourg, Switzerland.
Professor Don Manfred Hauke, Lugano, Switzerland.
Professor James Keating, Omaha, United States of America.
Professor Msgr. Angelo Lameri, Crema, Italy.
Professor Rosalba Manes, Viterbo, Italy.
Professor Anne-Marie Pelletier, Paris, France.
Just note how many women have been chosen for this commission.
Seymour