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| Ven Cherry Vann, bishop elect of Monmouth Source: Church in Wales |
In the run up to the Electoral College charged with electing the 11th Bishop of Monmouth the President of the College, Archbishop John Davies, gave an account of the qualities required of the successful candidate. If I recall correctly it implied an element of holiness based on biblical guidance of the qualities needed to be a bishop.
I can no longer find the link, only "Page or file not found". No doubt it has been taken down to avoid embarrassing comparisons based on this reaction in conversation with others from an internationally respected commentator on Church affairs to the election of the "first partnered lesbian bishop", that we know of, in the UK:
"Merit and holiness has nothing to do with the election of bishops in the Church in Wales. This is a political process. There are 23 clergy electors in the electoral synod. All but 7 are bishops, archdeacons and deans and you need to have a two-thirds vote so what this means is that the establishment by the way they pack the Electoral College is able to select those people whom they wish to put forward as bishop… Barry Morgan the former archbishop has been pushing for this outcome. Pushing for women clergy, pushing for women bishops, pushing for the normalisation of homosexuality.
"Members of the Archbishop's Council tell me that Archdeacon Vann is a complete nonentity, not as a person but in her role in the substantive debates within the Archbishop's Council. In other words she is not someone who has ideas, is a mover or a shaker, who people when we come to an issue, they look at her and think: What does she have to say? She is just another grey face at a long grey table. She is a committee person, she sits on the dais at General Synod and in 10 years has made no meaningful contribution whatsoever.
“Within the diocese where she is archdeacon she has made life miserable for conservative evangelicals, I'm told, through a passive, aggressive approach to things. In other words she is not a warrior for this cause, she is just an apparatchik. And so now we have another mediocrity who has a good CV of positions but no actual real holiness or merit or intellect or heft…
"The option taken by the Church in Wales is effectively to say the gay issue does not matter to us. We are not going to go through the perambulations that the Church of England has gone through. We are just saying this is who she is, like it or lump it."
"Members of the Archbishop's Council tell me that Archdeacon Vann is a complete nonentity, not as a person but in her role in the substantive debates within the Archbishop's Council. In other words she is not someone who has ideas, is a mover or a shaker, who people when we come to an issue, they look at her and think: What does she have to say? She is just another grey face at a long grey table. She is a committee person, she sits on the dais at General Synod and in 10 years has made no meaningful contribution whatsoever.
“Within the diocese where she is archdeacon she has made life miserable for conservative evangelicals, I'm told, through a passive, aggressive approach to things. In other words she is not a warrior for this cause, she is just an apparatchik. And so now we have another mediocrity who has a good CV of positions but no actual real holiness or merit or intellect or heft…
"The option taken by the Church in Wales is effectively to say the gay issue does not matter to us. We are not going to go through the perambulations that the Church of England has gone through. We are just saying this is who she is, like it or lump it."
Cherry Vann is a member of the Church of England's Pastoral Advisory Group considering matters such as ‘Next Steps in Human Sexuality’ (GS Misc 1158). She is also a Trustee of the Ozanne Foundation.
The Bishops of the Church in Wales agreed the following statement on marriage between same-sex couples in March 2012.
"We abide by the Christian doctrine of marriage as the union of one man with one woman freely entered into for life. We acknowledge that whilst issues of human sexuality are not resolved, there are couples living in other life-long committed relationships who deserve the welcome, pastoral care and support of the Church. We are committed to further listening, prayerful reflection and discernment regarding same-sex relationships."
The Rev Jenny Wigley who, along with the Ven Peggy Jackson, did everything they could to undermine traditional Anglican orthodoxy, was the Guest Editor for a special edition of Theology Wales In her Introduction she referenced "The statement of the 1998 Lambeth Conference affirmed heterosexual marriage or sexual abstinence as the only choices for Christians; homosexual practice was declared to be incompatible with scripture. But the statement also committed the bishops to listening to the experience of homosexual persons and called on people to “minister and sensitively to all irrespective of sexual orientation".
Heterosexual marriage was affirmed but has been undermined ever since. The bench of bishops have used every means at their disposal to force through same sex marriage in church, including a one sided presentation by the Primus of the Scottish Episcopal Church to the Governing Body last September. See Church in Wales bench of bishops in renewed push for same sex marriage.
On the face of it the appointment of Cherry Vann is entirely political. Llandaff boasts the first transgender priest. Now the bench can pride themselves on appointing the first female bishop with a same sex partner. She is also an interfaith enthusiast supporting the removal of church pews to allow Muslim events in church.
No wonder the archbishop expressed his delight in a video announcing the appointment.
It is a sobering thought for any priests stood at the altar in whose name they will be celebrating.
Postscript [23.09.2019]
Bishop-Elect for Monmouth Diocese Cherry Van gives her first interview since being elected to the post
"She said: 'I was quite struck by the process the Church in Wales adopts to find new bishops. It seems to me to be heavily dependent on the guidance of the Holy Spirit and that gives me great encouragement'."
I know a number of evangelical Anglicans in the diocese of Monmouth. They do not accept female headship nor do they accept same sex relationships. That is their choice. What are they to do? They would never join the Ordinariate.
ReplyDeleteCymraes yn Lloegr
Come on, Archbishop give us a P.A.B. It would sort out so many of your problems AND show your generosity. Could it happen?!!
ReplyDeleteCatnap.
He won't do it. He hasn't got the b*lls to oppose the Monstrous Regiment of Archdeaconesses.
DeleteI am afraid, Matthew, it's not a question of the Archbishop's b*lls. The clergy of Monmouth need to hold an urgent meeting and state in no uncertain terms that they will not serve or work with her. The Electoral College will have to go back to square one.
DeleteI am sure that we all remember what happened in St David's Diocese when clergy there lost all confidence in Carl Cooper. He had to resign. How could this woman be consecrated if the clergy will not work with her.
For the sake of the Church in Wales, it is high time that clergy and laity said enough is enough.
That said, Ancient Briton, Cherry Vann would probably make an ideal Welsh bishop - indistinct and nothing to contribute, not even holiness. Some of the great men who worn the mitre, here in Wales, must be spinning in their graves!
Seymour
Quite so Seymour.
DeleteIn 2017 the Legal Subcommittee gave advice in the Matter of the Election of a Bishop of Llandaff following complaints from members of the Electoral College. It contained this reference:
The particular ministry of a bishop is described in the Charge in the Order for the Ordination of Bishops in The Book of Common Prayer for use in the Church in Wales (1984):
“A bishop is called to be a chief minister and pastor. You are to be the centre of unity, a teacher of the Faith, and a guardian of discipline in the Church. You are to watch over the people committed to your charge, and, after the example of the chief Shepherd, to know the flock and to be known by them. You are to lead and guide the priests and deacons in your care, and to be faithful in ordaining and sending out new ministers. You are to proclaim the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to be the chief minister of the sacraments of the New Covenant. You are to confirm the baptised, and guide the people of God in the way of eternal life.”
It is a mockery.
You're all pissing in the wind and you know it.
DeleteOffa's dyke is in Monmouth and here to stay.
In fact the whole of south Wales is now emasculated in the cult in Wales.
Get used to it and prepare for it to fall to pieces sooner rather than later.
God help us all!
I like the idea of the clergy of Monmouth rising up against this threatened infliction, but have they (unlike the Abp) got the necessary b*lls (actual or metaphorical)? An awful lot of them now are women, and there's no power to compare with that of the mighty sisterhood.
DeleteWhat proportion of the Governing Body are women?
ReplyDeleteRob
PP. Women in ministry is here to stay, like it or not. But, given the serious problem in Monmouth, the choice of the Elect, has indeed political motivation.
ReplyDeleteIf the CiW has through standing orders of the GB, made legal that LGBT are allowed to be clergy, but non practising in same sex relationship, living as one. Then the situation is unfortunately difficult to accept. Does this mean all LGBT clergy in Wales can now live openly with there partners? If the policing of the rule insitu is that this is unacceptable, then the situation is certainly untenable.
Poor J John, had an awful rebuff after preferment to Reading and then in part Llandaff. So, are CiW saying here now, that men in such partnerships are not allowed to be open, while women in lesbian partnerships are welcome to be open and beyond reproach.
It's now time the GB seriously made a ruling on this level of importance for those representing the Church in the public domain. What on earth is the Church's relationship with other denominations into the future, I guess we will be well and truly.... Out! Will the CT blow this story out of the water in the realm of Church news, I hope not. Monmouth has had enough headline stories of late, further wounds will not help.
AB you are correct in your disclosure of Manchester Dio information and other proven "our" and "we" in the current context. Your search for the truth is above reproach.
"are CiW saying here now, that men in such partnerships are not allowed to be open?"
DeleteHardly! The Bangor Diocese Director of Ordinands (who seconded Peggy's motion to GovB), an ex-Roman Catholic priest, is living quite openly with his civil partner (a ministry area leader and also an ex-Roman Catholic priest)
Do you know how rediculous you actually sound Tyrone
DeleteYou should have led with 'trust of the ozanne foundation'; that's all one needs to know.
ReplyDeleteOnce again AB seems to have interpreted facts in his or her own particular way. For, whatever other things that Cherry may have done (and I hold no brief for her), it doesn’t seem quite accurate to say that she supported the removal of church pews “to allow Muslim events in church”.
ReplyDeleteIt is certainly true that St. Thomas Werneth wished to re-order their church and remove the pews, which were not original and appear to be have been installed in about 1970 without a Faculty. It is also true that the church lies in the middle of the most ethnically diverse parish in the Diocese of Manchester and that a large majority of the population (88%) is Muslim. In fact all the children in the local CofE primary school are Muslim! This is a challenging area for any church to survive and in fact Cherry Vann suggested that, unless the church did something fairly radical, it would close within 5-10 years.
However the purpose of the re-ordering was - according to the church itself - to “breathe new life into the worshipping community and also the wider community, as we seek to fulfil part of our Christian mission: working for justice, and ensuring that all are able to flourish - in our community and beyond”. It’s notable that the church encourages visits from local schools so that they can “learn more about the heritage of the church (and) find out more about the Christian Faith”; also that they run a weekly Bible/Discussion Group in Farsi or Dari for migrants from Iran or Afghanistan who want to find out more about the Christian faith. This is hardly kowtowing to Muslims!
In support of the church’s application to re-order, Cherry Vann wrote, “I would want to stress the importance of the church building continuing to speak of the church`s living presence and Christian witness in the community”. It is true that she wrote of the “significant interfaith work going on in Oldham” and the “genuine desire among some of the Muslim leaders to build bridges and work in partnership with the Church.”. But that is not the same as supporting specifically Muslim events within the church building; in fact the Vicar states that what the church wants to do is use the space “to offer facilities for locals, including English classes and a job club”.
Surely one should applaud a church that is not allowing itself to become despondent about the future but is challenging it head-on. Its website suggests that it comes from the centre of the Anglican tradition, and is genuinely seeking to be both an authentic Christian witness and a builder of cohesion within a very deprived parish.
(Just to let you know where I got this from: partly from the “Telegraph” and “Independent” websites but mostly from the actual judgement made by the Chancellor of the Diocese of Manchester and the church's own website).
It is not the pews that are important Baptist Trainfan but the altar on which the Eucharist is celebrated in remembrance of Christ's sacrificial death on the cross for all mankind but Islam denies the divinity of Christ and that Christ died on the Cross.
DeleteThe church wants to use the space “to offer facilities for locals" 88% of whom are Muslims and all the CofE Primary School pupils are Muslims. If a church is used for Muslim prayers for them it becomes a mosque.
While Christians are welcoming Muslims in this country, Muslims abroad are regularly killing Christians. That is not to say that all Muslims are murderers but Muslims who do are following what is written in the Koran which is counter to the Christian faith.
In mainly Islamic countries the choice for non-Muslims is to convert, pay the tax (jizya) or die. That should be unacceptable to any Christian. If Muslims want to build bridges they should first put their own house in order.
Regardless of Ms Vann's background, I find it difficult to see why anyone needs to be imported from the CofE when there must be many qualified clerics within the CinW to become Bishop.
ReplyDeletePerhaps they see the See as a poisoned chalice.
Did anyone notice that the new Incumbent of the Rectorial Benefice of Canton now has a new incumbent. A female imported from England.
It is a very diverse set of three former parishes, one of which, St Lukes ( in which, many years ago I grew up when Father John Read was Vicar ) is Anglo-Catholic.
Can't help feeing that Fr Read, and Fr Holcombe for that matter must be wondering??
Cymro
OK. This has gone far enough. The last thing we need here in Monmouth is more secrecy, rumblings, mistrust and division. This appointment, and the dishonesty surrounding it, is going to make matters worse. Much worse. The Archbishop is complicit in a cover-up, and the lack of transparency concerning Archdeacon Vann's manner of life means she cannot be a focus of unity. If the Church in Wales is an inclusive, progressive Church, why not be honest and open?
ReplyDeleteI am about to email the Secretary-General of the Anglican Communion, Archbishop Josiah Idowu-Fearon. This election has consequences wider than the Church in Wales (a fact that the Archbishop of Wales is all too aware of) as the Lambeth Conference will take place next year, and issues of gender, sexuality and the theology of marriage will be high on the agenda. Archbishop Idowu-Fearon's contact details are: secretary.general@aco.org
I would encourage anyone with concerns about this election to make their views known. The Archbishop and his controlling press officer may think they can keep the lid on any discontent here, but they cannot control the Anglican Communion.
I am so sorry that another episcopal election in Wales is turning into battleground, all for want of honesty and integrity, and in a Diocese where honesty and integrity are still perceived as being in short supply after Bishop Richard's early departure.
ReplyDeleteIf you consider the broad sweep of the Christian tradition, holiness is far-reaching (just as it was for our Jewish forebears, which is why there are 613 laws in the Torah covering every aspect of our lives from sexual intercourse to washing the dishes, which is why, as Jonathan Sacks says, God is in the detail). It is not just just about sex (although that is a not insignificant strand of it, especially where oppression is a factor); it is also about social justice, as well as honest relationships and telling the truth. Christian leaders need to be recognised as truthful people.
The worldwide Church is not of a common mind about whether same-sex relationships are an expression of the will of God. Who am I, as an individual, to pontificate about whether a relationship of intimacy with another person of the same gender (which may or may not include sexual activity) is a life-affirming gift from God or not? I simply don't know. At the moment, the worldwide Church agrees that marriage between a man and a woman is the only context for relationships of sexual intimacy. In time, and by consensus, the Spirit may lead the Church into new a understanding of the will of God.
Some provinces of the Anglican Communion have decided that they will break with this consensus. At one level, that is their choice, and there will obviously be consequences for the rest of us. Which begs the question: Why has the Church in Wales, with all its public affirmation of gender diversity and sexual orientation seen fit to elect a bishop whose life situation is consonant with its public statements, but has decided to be deliberately and decisively opaque? Was this not an opportunity to say, in effect, we want to lead the way (as the Episcopal Church in the United States did when it ordained the first women as priests and bishops)? Why, in this situation, does it believe a cover-up is either necessary or desirable? Was Archdeacon Vann willing to be open about her circumstances, but asked not be? And by whom - and why? A Bishop's life is a matter for the Diocese s/he serves if there is to be trust and confidence that s/he is a focus of unity, whatever the Archbishop's spokesperson maintains.
There are two options here. Cherry Vann needs to be truthful with the people she believes she has been called to serve. That may lead to her consecration and enthronement. It may mean that, painfully, she must accept that, for the moment, those whose lifestyle is at odds with the current teaching of the Church, cannot be bishops. No-one has a right (or indeed a need) to be a bishop.
Lack of truthfulness will mean that an episcopate is compromised, trust is only equivocal, her ministry will not be accepted or recognised by some, and the mission of the Church is undermined. As others are already asking, does Monmouth really need this at this time? i doubt it.
Agree with you 100% Athelstan. It's the lack of transparency that is crucial here. Which begs a further question: did the electoral college elect Archdeacon Vann in full knowledge of her situation, or were the electors kept in the dark by Dodgy John the Dodgy former Solicitor, and the likes of June the Bully and Andy Crap?
DeleteAthelstan The world wide communion is not in agreement over same sex relationships because a large part of it is chasing the culture rather than God's revealed word in scripture. If you read biblical scholars then you will see that they are clear that the same sex activity is forbidden. Please note that does not mean that people are to be treated horribly. Further it seems unlikely therefore that there is confusion in the Trinity so the Holy Spirit will not be leading the church into a contradiction of the will of God. Further still and with deep sadness as a lifelong CiW member it seems clear that God will NOT bless a church that increasingly moves away from Him. Maybe that is why the CiW continues to decline?
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeletePP. Looks like the commendable comments above are so worthy and that unfortunately the election of the first lesbian Bishop in a same sex relationship is in the public domain. I was seriously shocked to read the article below (link). I so hope and prayer our diocese does not have more turbulence to ride.
ReplyDeletehttps://virtueonline.org/wales-new-bishop-monmouth-lesbian-updated
Reading this thread called to my mind how things change. Some time in the late '70s or early '80s - all these years afterwards I forget exactly when - an incumbent of my acquaintance in Monmouth diocese was deserted by his wife. She abruptly left him in order to to move in with a work colleague. His curate, whom I knew quite well and who became his main confidant when it first happened - because it was hardly something he readily could share with parishioners - was quite certain that he had no inkling of the affair, and that her decision to leave him had come as a complete bolt from the blue.
DeleteInevitably, he notified his bishop - Derrick Childs at that time. He was immediately summoned to the episcopal presence and was, it appears, sententiously lectured for breaking the Christian code of the sanctity of marriage. The bishop informed him that but for the compassion of the Church he would be deprived of his parish; but that as long as he 'kept himself unspotted from the world' - which for the bishop clearly meant avoiding even the faintest whiff of suspicion that there might be another woman in his life - he would be suffered to continue in his ministry. His curate was also summoned to Bishopstow and charged to keep a careful eye on his vicar and notify the bishop if he had the slightest suspicion that 'another woman' might be visiting the vicarage. To his credit, the curate absolutely refused to spy on his colleague.
After a while, the incumbent concerned found the pressure, scrutiny and suspicion unbearable, and resigned. He subsequently became a Roman Catholic and his new communion, with more compassion for his predicament than he'd received in the diocese of Monmouth, helped him secure a new, lay, job. No 'other woman' had appeared in his life at that point, though as I lost contact afterwards I've no knowledge of what happened subsequently.
I tell this tale - since the players, forty years later, are likely to be dead and beyond hurt if by some chance even the sparse outline that I've given here is recognizable to any reader - only because I was convinced then, and am still convinced now, that Bishop Childs was terrified of 'reputational damage' should the situation in that parish get picked up by the press; at that time the 'Sun' was particularly keen on reporting clerical sex scandals, and featured a steady trickle of them. Indeed, there was a rumour around back then - though I've no proof of its truth! - that the Welsh bishops of the time had informally agreed that none of them would approve the institution of a priest rumoured to have marital difficulties, so that clergy in that situation would have no alternative but to move the other side of Offa's Dyke and - should bad publicity erupt - become someone else's problem!
Forty years ago, a priest's marital difficulties made a juicy tabloid story. I don't believe that such a thing would today, unless the context was unusually egregious, because attitudes have changed. But an ecclesiastical 'gay' story's still worth covering, and now - unlike clergy matrimonial break-ups in the '70s - the press reaction's not prurient and puritan - as it used to be under headlines like 'Hanky-Panky Vicar'! - but libertarian - as in 'Church bars vicar from marrying same sex lover'.
But the motivation of the hierarchy remains the same, because the fear is identical: they're terrified of a 'bad press'. So terrified that sound pastoral principle and solid moral theology give way to obsession about reputational damage. Modern Anglicanism, at least in the developed west, has lost its theological rudder.
Poor bloke - his wife left him and he get's this kind of treatment from his bishop. What a disgrace - absolutely travesty of pastoral care. Cruel.
DeleteWe now see the importance of celibacy - and an argument for it - in the Catholic Church. The CinW has allowed all its former red lines (by tradition or scripturally) to be crossed and is now wide open to abuse even greater than we are at present witnessing through the appointment of a practising gay sex female Bishop.
ReplyDeleteLW
PP. I agree Bishop Childs was a careful and thoughtful leader. He certainly pastored his clergy strongly, but with a care and companion for the much bigger picture. Today, the moral compass has certainly gone out of kilter and to the detriment of the Church.
ReplyDelete@ Anonymous:
DeleteThat leaves me wondering how well - if at all - you knew him!
@ John Ellis, I knew Bishop Childs fairly well and indeed his successor Clifford Wright. Bishopstow was fairly close to my then home, and as such encountering both men or indeed there spouces was a regular occurance and invitation to meals was alway a treat. So yes, I knew him and respected his counsel on many occasions. So with respect, please don't cast aspergion on my truthful dialogue. PP.
ReplyDeleteWell, I too knew him fairly well, and our exchange calls to my mind another story which for me all too clearly underlines the point which I was seeking to make. A priest whom I knew extremely well was asked by Bishop Childs to move to a large, multi-church parish for which no volunteer had materialized by the time the diocesan board of patronage met to nominate a new incumbent.
DeleteThe priest agreed to the move, which he'd never previously thought of making, and at his first parochial church council in the new parish he shared some of the things which he would be seeking to do in his ministry among them. One of the parish's several daughter churches was shared with, and owned by, one of the free churches with which the Church in Wales was 'covenanted', but the Anglican contribution had remained slight thoughout, largely because the parish lacked the large staff which it routinely had in earlier days.
At his mention of increasing Anglican involvement in the shared church, there was a chorus of groans and complaints from PCC members, and the new incumbent discovered to his amazement that, some time before, the PCC had formally petitioned the diocese to withdraw from the shared church arrangement. Neither the bishop nor the archdeacon had thought to breathe one word of this simmering controversy to him, either before or after his institution!
The free church minister was also extremely unhappy about the lack of any serious and effective Anglican involvement; although the shared church agreement was well over a decade old, there was still no Anglican congregation at all, though a few Anglicans attached to a couple of other churches in the parish faithfully attended a weekday Eucharist there. So the new incumbent was faced with a PCC entirely unwilling to countenance further commitment to the shared church project, and a free church minister regularly making the case that if the Anglicans weren't going to be involved on a fifty-fifty basis it was better that they weren't there at all.
In the end the new incumbent (by then not so new!) and the free church minister arranged to meet Bishop Childs and argued that without another priest on the staff building up an Anglican presence in the shared church was going to be practically unfeasible. They suggested to the bishop that, given current staffing, a way through to increasing the Anglican participation in the shared church might be to detach one of the other daughter churches from the parish and join it to the next parish, where, at that time, one incumbent pastored one congregation in one church building. Bishop Childs being apparently disinclined to consider that notion, the two ministers suggested that in all the circumstances it would be more honest to wind up the shared church agreement rather than for it to continue in theory but not in any significant reality. The bishop's only reply was that he certainly would't want to go down in history and in the local news as the first bishop to approve the winding up of a shared church arrangement.
Which again supports my previous contention that 'how things look' dominated the thinking of certain bishops then no less than it appears to do now. Only the issues are different.
Read Romans 1 26 to 28. It is rare for a Sunday Service NOT to include a reading from Saint Paul's epistles.Do we now disregard ALL his teachings.
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