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| Bishop of Bangor, The Right Rev Andy John Source: NorthWalesLive |
Addressing challenges facing the church which was at a “low ebb” following a number of resignations in the Diocese of Bangor in 2015 the Bishop of Bangor, Andy John, said that the church needs to 'move with the times'.
That is what lies behind his Episcopal Letter in which he comes out firmly in favour of same sex marriage.
Bishop Andy writes, "This is not the teaching of the Church at this moment but I believe it is fully in keeping with our faith and orthodoxy. I believe it will strengthen our witness to a world which longs to see justice and fairness for all, regardless of gender, ethnicity and sexual orientation, and cannot understand how the Church is still wrestling with an issue that most people have accepted long ago.
"Any change to official Church teaching will require the consent of the Church in Wales through its Governing Body. I realize that not everyone will take the position outlined above - and there are good arguments for developing the Church’s teaching in other ways, for example by introducing a service of life vows or revisiting the question of blessing same sex unions. This debate cannot be ignored but neither can it take place without wisdom, generosity and grace. I pray that it will engage you in a new way this year and that you will pray and reflect on how we can be faithful to God and strengthen out witness to Christ’s redeeming love."
How very predictable.
The bishop writes of the principle of developing our understanding of what constitutes "God’s will" as we consider issues where Church teaching has changed over time: "For example, no-one would argue today that God is anything other than implacably opposed to slavery and all forms of exploitation."
The bench of bishops are slaves. Slaves to the Zeitgeist, seeking loopholes to justify their perverse desires. They should return to orthodoxy and stop exploiting people who are supposedly in their care.
Postscript [07.02.2019]
Response to the Bishop of Bangor regarding his letter concerning Same Sex Marriage
From The Evangelical Fellowship in the Church in Wales (Thanks to SM for this link)
Remember that +Andy is just a puppet. It is former cottager and now Archdeacon, Andrew, who makes the important decisions in the diocese.
ReplyDeletePRESS RELEASE
ReplyDelete"The Bishop of Bangor is delighted to announce that the make-up of the clergy in the diocese is moving ever closer to the population as a whole. Soon we will be totally representative.
Bangor Clergy comprise:
Black and ethnic minorities 5%
LGBT+ 25%
Welsh speakers 40%
Women 45%
Christians 70%
So you see, we are very representative of the population at large"
Sounds to me as though he's trying to wangle a future gay wedding for himself.
ReplyDelete"Wangle a gay wedding for himself" WWJS? No prize for guessing who will officiate.
DeleteQueenie
And the venue is more likely to be men's gymnasium showers than a church.
DeleteWell, Queenie, it is less likely to be his recently priested wife, as her recent absence from the cathedral suggests new employment outside the CiW
DeleteGod made the sea and the dry land, night and day, Adam & Eve. The complementariness of male and female in marriage is sacred. It is disturbing to have a Bishop introducing gay marriage and further damaging the Anglican Church.
ReplyDeleteLoosemore
Did he try a pectoral cross but find that when he touched it it burned his skin?
ReplyDeletePP What on earth is the Bishop doing, the importance of such a decision surely comes through deep and meaningful dialogue and RB motion.
ReplyDeleteAs for the perhaps tongue in cheek, reference to the Bishop's personal life surely is nothing more than gossip, speculation, like that of his AD being the decision maker. The more I read the more dyer the CinW is becoming. What next, I dare not guess!
Here's me thinking that bishops were supposed to be "Guardians of the Faith" - how could I possibly think such a thing?
ReplyDelete"This is not the teaching of the Church at this moment but I believe it is fully in keeping with our faith and orthodoxy.” That is to say, “I don’t care about scriptural based theology. I know better.”
ReplyDeleteOh my, the great theologian +Andy declares gay marriage to be fully in line with our 'faith and orthodoxy.'
ReplyDeleteNo offence, but I think I'm going to listen to the scriptures, reason and tradition on this one +Andy. Y'know the Anglican thing.....
Using slavery as an example to illustrate changing attitudes over time is just plain wrong in every way. Is John really saying the NT writers believed slavery was Ok even if their writings would be reinterpreted over time? His hermeneutical prowess seems to be as attuned as a theology fresher.
Where the Clapham Sect changed the world applying the unchanging Word. John wants to do an Origen type hatchet job to prove his point that he received, not from the Church or the Spirit, but from the spirit of the age.
So this is the clown who has been given some sort of overseeing role over Monmouth Diocese while +Richard is confined to quarters. Hope for Monmouth? No hope for Monmouth.
ReplyDeleteLukas
One-nil to the Prince of Darkness, who from the very beginning has been whispering in the ears of the people “Did God really say ....?”
ReplyDeletePP. How can he oversee Monmouth being at some distance. Wouldn't +Gregory who knows the diocese temperament or, ++ who appears to have left the see to tread its own deep waters.
ReplyDeleteInteresting move in Mon, uniting St Stephen's Newport (trad ang) and St Paul's (Evan) in one building (St Stephen's ) but still being separate churches.
Here in the Bangor, we are somewhat intrigued by Evangelical Ed's take on the oversight of the Diocese. Yes, it is absolutely dire, whichever way you look at it. And yes, Andy Crap is splashing around desperately in the shallow end for some kind of antidote to the decline for which he is solely responsible. But the cottaging Archdeacon running things from behind the scenes? I think not. He is, at best, a lap dog (but only second in the running after Bob the Builder). The person who is really running Bangor Diocese, calling the shots and pulling all the strings, is the Diocesan Secretary, Sion Rhys Evans. Andy is very much under his command. Why do you think Mr Rhys Evans is being allowed to use the former Deanery as his pied a terre (a fact that I bet our friends at HMRC are ignorant of).
ReplyDeleteAs for faith and orthodoxy, this excuse for a Bishop wouldn't know the meaning of it. Stood there in the pulpit with his floppy Bible in hand, grasping at straws, having done no serious theology since he went to that excuse for a seminary, St John's College, Nottingham. How on earth can he say that equal marriage is fully in line with our faith and orthodoxy? The majority of the world's Christians (not least those in places where the Church is actually growing) would laugh in his face. But then he has always been a walking joke.
And this is the moron put in charge of the £10 million giveaway?
DeletePoint conceded Medwyn! You are probably closer to the mark than I.
DeleteOne mute point from Medwyn's otherwise excellent observations. Mr Rhys Evans's pied a terre. The former Deanery? really? I think it's fairly common knowledge that it is more likely to be another property owned by the RB on Upper Garth Road. I am told he can tell you exactly where the tea bags and the sugar are kept, along with a lot of other things!
DeleteMy question is this. How are the Bangor clergy and parishioners such suckers that they are able to sit there and allow such blatant behaviour to go unchallenged? Now we know why Andy Crap was none too bothered by the exodus of all the gifted clergy from Bangor. He knew that having a load of stooges around him would remove any uncomfortable questions being raised. What an arrogant t**ser. But worse, is a spineless Archbishop who is allowing all this to poison the life of a Diocese that was flourishing before Barry the Golfer 'fixed' the 2008 electoral college.
Forgive me for appearing as thick as two short planks, but I must have missed something, and have assumed (rightly or wrongly) from comments in this thread that Andy Crap is going to be acting Bishop of Monmouth? If this is so, leaving aside the sheer idiocy of such a move, there may be some method in the madness. Bishop Crap has a distinguished track record of making archdeacons simply disappear without any trace. Remember Professor Mike West (affectionately known as 'Fred' among the Bangor clergy)? Well, he slipped quietly away without so much as a 'good bye and thank you' only to resurface in the clerical graveyard of St Padarn's Institute. Two archdeacons of Bangor legged it to the Church of England as soon as they realised that the Diocese was going down the toilet (leaving the Lavatory Attendant to re-arrange the deckchairs around the urinals). Then a Dean went running into the arms of the former Bishop of Derby, who is a friend of her potty 'boyfriend'the Professor who thinks he's a teddy bear (and who wrote up her PhD).
ReplyDeleteSo, if Andy acts true to form in Monmouth, he will be clearing the obstacles to Richard Pain's resumption of episcopal ministry in one fell swoop. He will also be able to pop in and see his ex-wife, too, who has re-emerged into daylight as a chaplain at the Heath hospital. Obviously an incumbent's stipend and free housing in the most select part of Bangor wasn't good enough for her. Mind you, there's nothing like a game of happy families to keep the punters on side.
I have it on good authority that Andy will be overseeing the Archdeacons in Monmouth for some time yet.
ReplyDeleteSister Lister and the Archdeacons have continued to refuse to mediate with Bishop Richard so the stalemate continues.
And what is the Archbishop doing about it?
Nothing!
Gareth, I think your assessment is far too modest. Andy Crap isn't having oversight in Monmouth simply as part of a cunning plans to facilitate the removal of the Dean and Archdeacons. He's been sent in to do what he has not yet managed to do in Bangor, and that's bring about the total decimation of the Diocese. He's obviously bored up there in the mountains, and looking for other places to create his trademark havoc. If clergy morale isn't low enough in Monmouth already, it will be at its Nadir once this gormless episcopal specimen arrives on the scene. Meanwhile, Shirley is acting with characteristically irresponsible disregard. As the former Ass Bishop in Llandaff was fond of saying (as he mimicked +David Hope) "What a bloody mess."
ReplyDeleteTrue indeed Abergavenny -"What a bloody mess". The silence of an incompetent out of work High Street solicitor of an Archbishop has to be understood and measured in the light of the devious, obsessive deflecting Morgan the Organ. Oh yes folks, deflection is his latest craze. But ride on buddy, it ain't working.
ReplyDeleteEmlyn tatoo
Authentic development of doctrine is NEVER disjunctive with the past.
ReplyDeleteADMIN NOTE
ReplyDeleteCommentators without an account name should use a pseudonym to identify their comments from others to ensure publication.
If your comment has not been published please consider whether this is the cause and re-submit with a suitable pseudonym as necessary.
PP. So +Andy is overseeing Monmouth, interesting move. Or, is this a translation in all but name. So much for Richard returning in Feb. Surely a provincial press release in called for. This Church if everything is to believed from the blogging in all recent articles is turning into nothing more than a "soap opera" and that's the tragedy that many faithful souls are now seeing.
ReplyDeleteWhat skills does Andy have in this context that, for example, the Archbishop doesn’t have? Let’s see his ‘job description’ in writing!
DeleteYour post strikes at the very heart of this matter PP. The time has come for this unholy mess to be cracked wide open. Every noble Christian value has been spurned over the past 25 years. This blog provides a rich repository for an investigative journalist of robust disposition and courage to expose the malaise which has infected the Church in Wales at so many levels.
ReplyDeleteWe may not have a newspaper in Wales of the same courageous disposition as the Boston Globe but the time has come for a great winnowing by placing this once great Church under the "Spotlight".
I heartily concur, Watchman, the whole mess urgently needs investigation. In the absence of an effective Charity Commission we need a good journalist to dig into it. Remember the Oxfam scandal and Kids Company came to light only after stories were published in the papers.
DeleteThat said there's been some good work in getting the +Richard story into the Church Times and BBC after the Western Mail ran with it. Compostella also has "legs" as they say, and copies of recent articles will no doubt be wending their way to various larger news agencies.
Unlike the Llandaff organ scandal, both stories involve much broader constituencies - two whole dioceses in fact - and are much harder to quash. With lots of aggrieved people coming out of the woodwork there's every opportunity to use it for effective "negative PR" against the CinW hierarchy.
Bearing in mind the rumour that Merthyr Organist reported in the Compostella thread:
ReplyDelete"Ms. Osbourne wants the [Llandaff] cathedral Chapter to resign and she wants to appoint 4 residentiary canons (two of which have now been appointed, Precentor and Chancellor)."
Is this in any way linked with events in Monmouth? It certainly looks as though there is some kind of restructuring going on in the CinW.
The rearrangement of the deckchairs gets more frenetic as the iceberg approaches!
The importation of the English model and "restructuring" is due to be rolled out to all the Welsh Cathedrals, Llandaff is just the first.
ReplyDeleteIn England, the Church Commissioners pay for a dean and two residentiary canons. Any additional residentiaries must come out of the Diocesean stipend pot (and usually have another post, like an archdeacon or the clergy training portfolio). Currently, Llandaff has (or is about to have) three residentiary canons. Where is the third stipend coming from?
DeleteOf greater interest to followers of AB is that if Llandaff is pioneering this 'English' model, it will mean that the occupant of a certain Deanery on the Green will have infinitely less room to manoeuvre, and will be accountable as an equal to his residentiary chapter colleagues. That should rein in some of his more narcissistic tendencies. Also, if the 'English' model is being rolled-out in full, what about lay members of the chapter? There should be at least two. I propose that June appoints Martin Shipton as one of them, in recognition of his services to the Church in Wales in exposing aspects of the profound institutional malaise.
Talking of malaise, if you go on to the Liberal-leaning Thinking Anglicans website, there are one or two interesting comments from people describing themselves as 'progressive' who think Andy Crap's letter on equal marriage is exactly that. So no support from his new-found friends who can see through his intellectual vacuity immediately.
There are no Church Commissioners in Wales PE, just the Representative Body.
DeletePoodles, all of them.
@THS - The Iceberg holed the Church in Wales below the waterline the day Barry Morgan became a Bishop in Bangor.
The ship has been sinking since then and it's now in its death throes.
Anyone with any sense abandoned it years ago!
You're absolutely right, @Popeye. The first iceberg was indeed Barry Morgan's appointment as Bishop of Bangor, though one could even say it was the day he was moved to Bangor after shenanigans at St Michael's College - not the first or last time the Church has tried to cover its mistakes by moving them to other dioceses.
DeleteHowever I was thinking of another iceberg in the near future: the demographic iceberg relating to the precipitous decline in CinW parishioners, and the paucity of newer, younger people to replace them. Arguably the Barry iceberg contributed to this one, but the current management have no idea how to reverse it.
Hence the general "let them eat cake" attitude about flights to Compostella, discretionary accounts and the Llandaff Organ scandal. They're well aware of the next iceberg and have nary an idea of how to avoid it.
Well said Popeye. If I recall, the iceberg first appeared in Benllech Anglesey 1997. Refresh! www.scandal and offence.com (google)
DeleteEmlyn tatoo
I see that in the new CiW lent course, everyone has to make pipe cleaner people! I wonder if one of these might stand in for the Bishop of Monmouth?
ReplyDelete"Make a Pipe-Cleaner Person. Keep your Person
somewhere safe; maybe you could place
it where you sit at home for quietness and
prayer."
To be honest, Danny, I have sat through plenty of those sort of Lent Studies where making a pipe cleaner person would have added considerably to the interest. Although, having made them - the aim is to make five, one each week - I wouldn't keep them safe to help me with my prayers. A rosary, a prayer rope, a tiny cross of olive wood, an ikon; I have a card of “The Light of the World”. I would find any of those more appropriate than a twisted pipe cleaner when I'm trying to concentrate on the Cross and Resurrection. Perhaps that only proves what a misfit I am in today's church.
DeleteAnglican Misfit
I don't know how permanent your tattoos may be Emlyn but this I do know that the names of Bazza and Benllech are still engraved upon the hearts of the faithful people of Anglesey as is the shameful quasi judicial injustice of the Summer of 1997. The blog which you allude to should be compulsory reading for all who contemplate dealing with the Church in Wales.
ReplyDeleteBazza and his Taffia henchmen - and women - that was the year when the traditional CinW came to an end for many of us ... compared to the 'giants' of the post war Bangor diocese, the current 'leaders' (which they are not) wouldn't even reach a junior level in any other hierarchy.
DeleteThey do say that the psychopathic murderer often returns to the scene of his crime Watchman. Such is his obsession.
ReplyDeleteEmlyn tattoo.