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| Bishop of St Davids Source: Church in Wales |
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| New Dean of St Davids Source Twitter @CarysNon |
The enthronement of Joanna
The consequences
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| First woman bishop welcomes first woman dean Source: Twitter@BishopJuno |
The adulation from bishop June:
"Llandaff journeyed to St David’s [sic] for the celebration of the Installation of their new Dean. All blessings on you Sarah as you enjoy the delights and learn the craft of deanship."
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| Former Abp of Wales Barry Morgan Source CinW |
The architect of the demise of the Church in Wales claimed that Canon Penberthy was "the best person to be a bishop".
See previous entry Festive Charades: Welsh bishops
Pure farce.
ReplyDelete~Everyman
The mitre never did sit well on him did it?
ReplyDeleteFeminisation?
ReplyDeleteMore like emasculation.
Like the darkness, Bully boy --Bazza's coven spreads.
You can't make a silk purse out of one. Can you?
ReplyDeleteThe first photo is the saddest.
ReplyDeleteThe second photo reveals their ideas of equality and being inclusive.
DeleteNot a man in sight.
PP. Just wondering. Many UK denominations have women in ministry roles, including presbyters, deacons and celebrants. Why is CinW having such bother accepting women in these role? I know the apostolic tradition arguments well, but, as proof from historical sources show women were in these roles early in the church (cited in a recent TV documentary). So what is the issue? Are women just unacceptable in holy orders, or any form of ordained roles. Personally I have no problem.
ReplyDelete"Anonymous" just doesn't get it. (1) Some "ministry roles" may indeed be discharged by women, but that's not to say they should be ordained ("every member ministry" was an ideal widely advocated in the innocent and idealistic 1980s). (2) "Many UK denominations" and the Church (One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic) aren't the same thing; some of them may indeed be outside it. (3) I don't know which "recent TV documentary" he/she has in mind, but the evidence for claims of this sort is pretty thin, and those who make TV programmes can be relied upon to shoot a sensational line, their prime objective being not the quest for truth but the pursuit of maximum ratings. (4) "Personally I have no problem". Dear oh dear, is the individual's lack of a "problem" with this major departure from Catholic order sufficient to justify its introduction? All right, I know it's happened, but that's not to say it should have done -- or that the women currently occupying episcopal and presbyteral roles in the CofE and CinW are actual bishops and priests (the jury is still out on deacons).
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ReplyDeletePP The thesis in the very interesting comment from Matthew, is one that is academically under scrutiny, this has indeed raised questions more than answers. We all have our personal views, and I respect the views of others.
ReplyDeleteWomen are here to stay in all roles in ordained ministry. What do we do or learn by this evolving change?
We either, leave, censure, refuse, curtail or disrupt. Voicing with every muscle we have. Or, come to an impasse were we seek formal acceptance and accommodation of our views. But have we not tried this? What recently happen was removal of episcopal authority for those who were unable to accept female authority. So were are we now? Is there a solution? Or, do we, accept female authority?
Catholic and Apostolic, most UK denominations take there root from this historic premise, only two non-sacramental churches, do not.
The programme in question was presented by 2 women academics, both theologians in the U.K.The documentary was "Jesus' Female Disciples" and Bethan Hughes' Divine Women"' There is also a recent article in the Telegraph in March 2018. There is also a recent book about current research into women being in orders in the early church (see Telegraph article for citations).
Proof from historical text were shown to reveal the removal of women prior to the sacking of Rome, and the rise of the dominance of papal control.
The issue, has to comeback to the work of the Holy Spirit. The Church evolves and so do the members. In the early Church the oral tradition was the main driver of authority and change. But who gave and instilled this instruction?
We have to believe that the Holy Spirit was the imparting advocate. Therefore, if we stand still and only follow with great respect the historical we fail. As surely the Holy Spirit, brings light into our darkness and, leads us forward. Of course, we can say that its open to interpretation, but surely this also the case in the fledgling early Church? So, do we just stand firm and unmoved or be bold, listen, be counselled and moved by the Holy Spirit.
Arguments suggest, we water down and interpret historic events, texts and so forth to our own ends, resulting in where we are right now. A side step could be celibacy, the RC changed to this rule largely due to thwart financial claims on priests by wives and lovers. Now it seems, the current thinking is removing this clause. Interestingly, because the RC faces a huge shortage of clergy (where have we heard that before?)' But, who ultimately calls the shots? God or, man?
So what do we do? Stand still or, evolve with the imparting of the Holy Spirit? The early Church was clear in its guided message
If we turn to scriptures, and in particular, Revelations, we find in chapter 3-4, warnings to the Churches of Asia Minor, but these could easily apply to us. The key is in the last verse of each warning "what is the Spirit saying to the Churches" (I paraphrase) but, moreover, ...Are we listening?
Sometimes I get so exasperated when I see, hear and read women in ordained ministry being derided, verbally abused and looked down on. Would our Saviour act this way? Surely its time for a serious level of debate, dialogue and bridge building to move forward. But the one key is listening.
I have now watched the television documentary to which PP refers. In their attempt to show that “the early Church” (a vague concept if ever there was one) had women priests the two female academics could produce only one piece of tangible evidence – a recently discovered 5th/6th century wall painting in Naples which might possibly have represented a female bishop. This was of course on the borders of the area whose irregular employment of women in liturgical roles was addressed by the letter of Pope Gelasius (reigned 492-96) and which they also mentioned, so its presence there isn’t altogether surprising. The fact that somebody painted a picture of a female bishop doesn’t prove that such characters actually existed, of course; if they did, a lot more evidence would be needed to demonstrate that they were within the main stream of Church life rather than a possible isolated irregularity.
DeleteThe two ladies were determined to prove their point, and jumped to conclusion after conclusion in the attempt. Salome was (possibly) a Christian healer – but so was Dorothy Kerin, whose ministry required no form of ordination to validate it. Joanna “bankrolled the Jesus movement” – but that no more makes her a female clergyperson than the rich laywomen (and laymen) whose generosity has supported the Church down the ages. Mary Magdalene was “an equal to the twelve disciples” – yes indeed, her proclamation of the Resurrection has earned her the title “apostle to the apostles”, but that, too, fails to prove that she presided at the Eucharist or carried out ordinations. The greatest lady of them all – Mary the Mother of God – was accorded only the most cursory of nods, and only because on the frontage of St Peter’s she doesn’t appear in statue form among the apostles but in a mosaic nearby (a far more exalted image, in fact). I have a hunch that feminists don’t have much time for the BVM, because her vocation was and is about Motherhood, which is too womanly a function for these women who’ve advance beyond womanhood.
PP I personally have no problem with ordained women. I suppose for me the problem is that there has not been listening, some have real concerns yet have been ignored. The whole feminism agenda has come in to play, and with it the liberalism of the Church which is leading to it's demise. I have always thought of Anglicanism as diverse and people welcome across the theological spectrum...that is no longer the case in Wales. Many have left or are leaving as they no longer find a spiritual home. You mention the holy spirit guiding but so often it is a human agenda that is being forced through. If it is all so great and jolly why can't Monmouth get clergy? Why are so few training. Why are so many clergy and lay people leaving?
ReplyDeleteIn other news, this is so crazy......https://stdavids.churchinwales.org.uk/news/2018/05/a-new-kind-of-ministry/ St David's has discovered a new type of ministry....called using retired clergy!!!????? Hasn't that been going on for decades???
Leaving aside the Mumsyfication of the Church in Wales (which just looks ridiculous - especially in the 2nd photo - no wonder the C in W isn't attracting young people) would whoever is responsible for Joanna Penberthy's public image please tell her (a) that you NEVER wear mis-matching cope and mitre; and (b) that she needs a hair cut. Wearing a mitre, with all that untidy grey hair hanging from it makes her look like an extra in The Life of Brian!
ReplyDeletePP, Woops, its stage managed surely.
DeletePP. I have to agree with Danny Jones. Monmouth is in a precarious situation with human resources. But in general the whole church in Wales management needs serious overhauling. Let alone, hands off the purse strings.
ReplyDeleteAs for the new breed of retired clergy its just a subtle means of ensuring all parishes in a mission area have a priest. But, we have used retired clergy well over decades as support to Vicars, Rectors and Deans. So what has changed? This newly labelled breed of retires are going to be the NSM Vicar, Rector etc, without stipend, perhaps expenses, with all the pastoral responsibility , so much for retirement.
Much worse, PP, those retired clergy who are licensed to Misery Areas will no longer be available to cover stipendiary clergy when they need a holiday or are ill. The Bishop clearly hasn't thought it through - or perhaps she has. It might be another power trick. Once they hold her licence, she can insist that they attend clergy school, clergy training, and when she shouts, "Jump", they will ask, "How high, ma'am?"
DeleteSeymour
Leaving aside her mis-matching cope and mitre Alwyn what intrigues me is her habit of wearing a bell rope when she "sallies" forth on every possible occasion. Is there some hidden meaning to this form of dress of which we mere males are being kept in the dark?
ReplyDeleteFeminisation goes global, this evening, on BBC Radio 4 at 8.00pm when the Bishop of Llandaff will not be in her Cathedral or Diocese, but at St Martin-in-the-Fields (just down the road from Paul Goulding's Chambers) preaching to any who dare to tune in and listen to 'A Celebration for Ascension Day.' I can't wait. I'm so, so excited.
ReplyDeleteThe tenor of this blog is revealing an unpleasant and at times spiteful misogyny - a person's value and worth is not measured by personal appearance. It's not clever or courageous to attack at this level , it's simply 'trolling'.
ReplyDeleteI doubt whether this will be posted by the blog owner- but worth a try!
Lesser Mortal?
Lesser Mortal, comments are welcome from mortals and lesser provided they are signed and not linked to commercial sites. (This may be relevant to Adarynefoedd.)
DeletePlease clarify your charge of unpleasant and spiteful misogyny.
Start with the selection of pictures and the choice of captions.
Delete"Not a man in sight" is this needed to validate any church event?
The comment from "Matthew" querying whether women currently occupying episcopal and presbyteral roles are actual bishops.
Alwyn from Abertawe attacks at a personal level eg "looking ridiculous" "she needs a hair cut" and 'untidy gray hair hanging down.'
These are examples of 'Ad Hominen' attacks, not reasoned argument , and the charge of misogyny stays.
Lesser Mortal?
Thank you for your clarification Lesser Mortal. Misogyny is defined as "dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against women". The examples you give can not be classified as such.
DeleteThe selection of pictures and the choice of captions illustrates a factual situation. The declared policies of the bishops of St Davids and Llandaff are being applied to achieve their policy of parity of the sexes, a policy of positive discrimination. Matthew is not alone in querying whether women currently occupying episcopal and presbyteral roles are actual bishops. That is a position taken by the vast majority of Anglicans in the Anglican Communion and the wider Church. The 'long hair' comment could have been made if a male bishop wore his hair in such a manner.
Charges of discrimination, prejudice and misogyny are being used unfairly to discredit members of the church who are unable in conscience to accept the sacramental ministry of women. Many women are unable to accept the innovation of the ordination of women.
On 8 May 2018 at 19:02 I wrote "The second photo reveals their ideas of equality and being inclusive. Not a man in sight."
DeleteNot a man in sight was and remains a fact.
How are their stated ideals of equality and inclusivity supported by such photographs?
I could have written there's not a black in sight or a gay (man) in sight.
There might be a lesbian there but if there is I wouldn't know.
Rather than support their stated ideals of equality and inclusivity such photographs suggest misandry.
Thank you Ancient Briton, I am merely one of many ladies I know who refuse to accept the ordination of women and that doesn't make me a misogynist.
Anonymous - my comment along the same lines as yours was not even posted. Adarynefoedd
ReplyDeleteMy original and not posted comment compared your approach to that of the Daily Mail ( and thinking about it, many other similarities too * ) women who do not meet the 'ideal' are shamed in their dreaded sidebar. The shaming and demeaning of women for their appearance is an age old tactic to reduce their authority. It is disrespectful. I compare this site with the politeness and respect of Thinking Anglicans. And you completely ignore one of the major issues of IICSA and the link between clericalism, authority and CSA with your own seemingly rather narrow concerns.
ReplyDelete* other comparisons: pro Brexit, small c conservative, most disgraceful IMHO the only solution for the CiW is to be saved by the CofE!! (which puts you in the company of groups such as those wishing to abolish the Welsh Assembly). Adarynefoedd
Hurrah for the Daily Mail! What a refreshing change from the Guardianistas! Isn't Littlejohn on the ball? And look at the good it is doing with its enlightened anti-plastic campaign. Stop arguing with slogans! I suppose you agree with the insufferable Owen Jones?
DeleteNo
I still think Rihanna is prettier! Critics, calm down! Rihanna’s sparkly mitre won’t harm the Catholic church | Catherine Pepinster https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/may/09/rihanna-catholic-church-religious-imagery?CMP=share_btn_tw
ReplyDeleteOne could be forgiven for thinking it's all about 'me,me,me' , looking at these photos. 'Enjoy the delights and learn the craft of Deanship'- how ridiculous. As, also, the Bishop in male vestments. A church lost indeed.
ReplyDeletePirran
"me, me, me" I don't think I've ever come across any edition of a diocesan newspaper that didn't contain a photograph of the bishop. There are other ministers of you gospel, you know!
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ReplyDelete