Bishop steps down after speaking of campaign forcing him to quit - Christian Today
The Ass Bishop of Llandaff is resigning after speaking of a "sustained campaign forcing him to quit". David Wilbourne, a strong supporter of gay cleric Jeffrey John, will step down on Easter Sunday after 'considerable and increasing pressure to relinquish' his post for the past 18 months.The Ass bishop of Llandaff knows all about victims. Back in 2011 when he was justifying his appointment by the Archimporter of PC persons, Barry Morgan, he claimed that the ordination of women would rid the world of homophobia, misogyny, brutalisation of women in all situations including those in war zones.
The Church in Wales has since ordained sufficient women to illustrate the nonsense of his comment. With so many women now in place, accusations by Jeffrey John of homophobia must be absurd.
After his appointment vicars in Landaff received a letter from Wilbourne instructing clergy how he was to be received. Suitable parking was to be provided and a bag carrier was to conduct him into church. Perhaps unsurprisingly his symbols of office were to be displayed on the Altar to emphasis his authority. It proved never to be obvious otherwise. In an unwise move the Ass bishop also let it be known that he would be honoured to made the diocesan.
Wilbourne mentioned nothing in his statement about a sustained campaign forcing him to quit, or of the alleged considerable and increasing pressure to relinquish his post for the past 18 months. He was brought in by someone with no scruples and supported a candidate with no scruples. He has been part of the say anything, do anything campaign to advance the liberal cause that has so damaged the Church.
Pray that the bench has the imagination to recognise the errors of the past. No more of the same please.
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| Going, gone, gone. Ass bishop Wilbourne and the briefly Dean Janet Henderson with their appointer Archbishop Barry Morgan. Picture credit; Church Times |
The real victims of this debacle engineered by Darth --Insidious and his minions are truth, honesty and integrity.
ReplyDeleteKeep draining the swamp +John Davies, you have more support than you might realise.
Since when is the election of a new Bishop of Llandaff any business of the chapters of Ely and Southwark cathedrals?
ReplyDeleteJeffrey John didn't get the job and isn't going to get the job.
Get over yourselves impertinent busybodies.
Dear Ancient Briton, a bit of fun, perhaps, on a lovely, sunny day…!
ReplyDeleteWhat, I wonder, will the historians say of this period? Maybe, something like this…
“Following the retirement of the Archbishop, a senior leadership team was left behind which did not enjoy universal confidence from the Diocese it served. One member of the team, courageously, if perhaps unwisely, campaigned on at least one issue that was inevitably divisive, given the tradition of Llandaff. Others, perhaps by way of compensation, seemed rarely to speak with the clarity of personal conviction very much at all. This may have caused them to appear ineffective, at best, or vacillating, at worst, in the face of the, sometimes, difficult choices, that are the lot of any human organization. And there were difficult choices to be made at that time, in Church life.
The Chrism Mass, traditionally a focus for priestly and diaconal ministry, was especially crucial that year: not only for the clergy of the Diocese, but for the lay people too. All had endured weeks of unpleasant, public and internecine controversy concerning a pivotal ministry in their Christian lives; and this, at the cost of paying scant attention to a wider world, with its pressing issues of famine, military conflict and domestic turmoil. They looked to the Presiding Bishop and the Bench as a whole, to signal some reverse of the malaise, to introduce some leaven into the lump.
Metaphorically, what was needed, was for the doors of that fateful conclave to be flung open, to let in a bracing and revitalising gust of the Holy Spirit…”
I am sorry you don't have much sympathy for Bishop David Wilbourne. He is a better person than any of the Welsh bishops. Many of us have found him a kind man, and had he become Diocesan bishop he would have treated traditionalists much better than Dr Morgan did.
ReplyDeleteAlthough I rarely agree with 'Scapegoat', I do agree with him that mocking people doesn't help the purpose of this blog.
From 'The Observer'
Thank you and I agree. +David is not a man to be mocked. As Professor Thomas Watkin points out, he's the only Bishop in Wales not tarnished with the homophobia brush.
DeleteI am surprised that Bishop Joanna didn't say anything at all at the electoral college. I would have thought that she'd have spoken out in favour of Dr. John given her new stance on LGBT+ issues. Sadly, not a word it seems. I thought it was ordination, not consecration, that stripped you of your back bone.
It's a shame +Carl wasn't around - I think he'd have whipped the bench into shape and got them to see sense.
Hey ho.
If by +Carl you mean the execrable Carl Cooper, you'll recall that the reason he is no longer on the bench is because he had a little affair with a married vicar, eventually breaking up both her marriage and his own. Such a man has no moral authority to wield and even the arch-hypocrite Barry was forced to let him go.
Deletehttp://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1283645/Bishop-denied-affair-married-reverend-living-her.html
No doubt you would see him as "honest" because he put his own needs above those of the Church, just like a certain dean who wanted to be a bishop. But if your yardstick for religious suitability is entirely based on attitudes towards sexual gratification then quite frankly you're part of the problem.
@Scapegoat.
DeleteBack so soon from feeding your ducks and setting up your own little gay church?
Now you can have the choice between an Episcopal leaker or a second-hand Ass as your first Bishop.
Your lack of response to the observation on the previous thread that you wanted the leaker before Jeffrey John continues to be the source of much wry amusement on The Green.
Have you tried stand-up comedy?
Glad the content of this blog is feeding the 'Gossip of the Green' - I bet some of you attend the Cathedral more regularly than ever before to get your tit bits of gossip before, during and after the act of worship.
DeleteI don't feel any need to respond to your observation on the previous thread as, quite clearly, it was not meant to be taken literally. And anyway, I wrote in to recommend a woman.
Finding it difficult to set up the 'little gay church' - can't find a venue large enough to house those who are horrified by what has gone on. Bishop David, however, would make an excellent shepherd - he's put his money where his mitre is - not only did he support the statement of the bishops on LGBT issues, he's now acted in conscience and resigned during this maelstrom of alleged homophobia.
All our prayers will be with the candidate who picks up this mess. I suspect that the 'gossip on the Green' will continue once they are in place - I just hope that that 'gossip' proves to be supportive and that those who conspire on the Green will do so in a spirit of helping rather than fault-findinging from day one. I'm a hopeful person.
On this occasion you shooting yourself in the foot with your crass remark has been the cause of the amusement.
DeleteActed in conscience you say?
"Stepping down" is code for sacked.
Need a venue Scapegoat?
DeleteTry Minsky's or the WOW bar.
Should be right up your street.
Neither are big enough for our homosexual egos.
DeleteThere'll be no problem accommodating your intellect.
DeleteAs satisfying as it is to see you confirm your real problem, even St. Paul's Cathedral would be insufficient to meet the challenge of your ego.
You'll need Wembley or twickenham for the chip on your shoulder.
DeleteThis all might be a bit of fun on a sunny day to some people but I am so outraged I am posting this comment twice. I trust it will appear twice Ancient Briton.
ReplyDeleteMadeleine Davies and the Church Times have included the image of those pretty young children in her article, but I wonder if the Church Times - and the person supplying the Church Times with that photograph - obtained permissions from all the children's parents for that photograph to be taken and for its subsequent use in being attached to a scandalous media story concerning allegations of homophobic behaviour by Welsh bishops and distributed world-wide over the internet?
I'm relieved that none of them is my daughter.
In the circumstances, perhaps the relevant Provincial and Diocesan safe-guarding officers need to consider their positions too. If they have allowed these children to be used in a public relations war being waged through the media, then it's a disgrace.
Permissions may have been made for the local parish magazine but I sincerely hope that the parents were consulted again when this photo was made available for a national publication.
DeleteIt does leave a bad taste when a photo of a joyful event such as a confirmation is used in this way - not very sensible. I hope it does not mar the memory it in the minds of the confirmed and their parents.
Bravo Deeply Concerned Parent.
DeleteI have only just found and read the Church Times article.
I share your anxieties and agree with everything you say.
If I was a parent of any of those children and hadn't been asked for or given my permission for the use of the photograph, my solicitor would be on the phone to the Church Times first thing Monday morning and then to 39 Cathedral Road demanding an explanation of how the photograph reached the Church Times in the first place.
As for the alleged homophobia scandal, it was all over Radio 4 this morning too with that nauseating Madeleine Moon pressing the Jeffrey John suit but no sign of John himself and no opportunity for journalistic scrutiny of his disgraceful claims of "threats".
Well done +John Davies for refusing to be drawn into breaking your oath of confidentiality.
No mention of Wilbourne's departure so the interviews were probably recorded prior to that twist in the tale became public.
+John Davies did disclose and confirm one very useful piece of information which previously was suspected but by no means certain and that is that JefFrey John was definitely not the only homosexual candidate to be considered.
DeleteWhy, therefore, has jeffrey John been the ONLY hosexual nominee to have attracted support from the gay lobby, members of Parliament et al?
In reality, it has all been very highly selective "homophobia" and actually nothing to do with "homophobia" at all and everything to do with Byzantine Barry Morgan attempting to continue his malign influence.
Let Jeffrey John be consigned to history as Bazza's final failure.
The time to move on is now long overdue.
I suggest any further remarks bitching on Jeffrey John's behalf be ignored.
Here, here! Bury the little toad for gods sake.
DeleteTo paraphrase CH Spurgeon: the time will come when the Church won't have shepherds to feed the sheep, but clowns to entertain the goats.
ReplyDeleteDavid Wilbourne : "sustained campaign forcing him to quit " ?
ReplyDeleteIt is good to know that David Wilbourne has listened to his forceful conscience guiding his path.
Now let 'Barry Bang-her' take a leaf from the Ass bishops book and p..s off into history www.scandal and offence.com
DeleteIt's been remarked by several around Llandaff that in a week that's been the most tumultuous for the diocese since Eryl Thomas's resignation, there's been nary a sighting of our Dean.
ReplyDeleteAlthough his cancellation of the recent Friends of Llandaff meeting was curious, it was of a piece with cancelling the previous PCC and the Chapter meetings. At least he is assiduous in taking his annual leave which, one hopes, will be suitably penitential during Lent.
No doubt recent events have given him much pause for thought.
The Friends of Llandaff Cathedral meeting was not CANCELLED just POSTPONED to a future date. For heaven's sake get your facts right before you criticize Old Scratch.
DeleteAs the late great Michael Winner said to Helen Mirren, "Calm down dear." Not everything needs to be said IN CAPS.
DeleteDid the Friends meeting happen or not? It did not. But considering that the Friends are considerably richer than the Cathedral at this moment, it might behoove the Dean to treat them with more respect.
As the Dean is paid to do a particular job, I see it as entirely proper to point out his lapses. My management advice usually comes with a reasonable price tag so the Dean should welcome having it for free.
Suggested soundtrack for the photo of the departed trinity AB.
ReplyDelete"So long, farewell, auf wiedersehn, goodbye,
Adieu, Adieu to yeu and yeu and yeu".
I for one am looking forward to the departure of another of Morgan's placements, the promoter of pagan practices in MAE Cymru, Peggy the pilot. This spiteful feminist sabotaged the hopes of loyal Anglicans with her amended code of practice to satisfy her own political motives. The sooner she flies off the better.
DeleteJob
Absolutely correct Cymru'r Groes!
ReplyDeleteIt is retired Bishop Barry who has stirred it up with the press and MPs .
I was astounded that the Bridgend MP claimed on the Sunday programme that she had been told her information by persons from the Electoral College ; this being so then the Electoral College should be summoned ,reprimanded and resignations invited.
It might be of interest to know how many of the complaining MPs are familiar with the West door of their local Church ? In other words the MPs are fighting a political cause,and I should add -so is retired Barry!
Of the 9 MPs, at least 3 are gay and 1 is lesbian.
DeleteAnother gross over representation of the 1.7%
The MP for Bridgend and Bishop John Davies were interviewed this morning on BBC Radio 4 about Jeffrey John's allegations of homophobia.
Deletehttp://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08k19h6 (advance to 21.50)
Full marks to bishop John for maintaining his oath of confidentiality, unlike some of the members of the Electoral College.
Dr John has expressed admiration for those who breached the Electoral College’s confidentiality, once again emphasising his unsuitability.
Well done 'Old Scratch'. Keep it up.
ReplyDeleteDo { detect a theme emerging here amongst Bazza's former minions? Elevation followed by Isolation followed by Decapitation. Strange and wondrous ways are at work here. Where will it all end? Abergwili?
ReplyDeleteA certain Northern lad who is a bishop might fancy his chances as Bishop of Sheffield? In which case, this is just the right time to jump and run! Ass-B for Sheffield? You might think that, I couldn’t possibly comment! Sniff, sniff - please Mrs Boddington, give me a job!
ReplyDeleteSandy
I don’t know where it will all end, Watchman. I can only imagine how the average person in the pew must be feeling when they realise how much this all costs:
ReplyDeleteFrom the Constitution of the Church in Wales: http://www.churchinwales.org.uk/resources/constitution-handbooks/constitution-of-church-in-wales/volume-2-section-3-schemes/
The minimum stipends (1 January, 2017) of:
(a) Residentiary Canon s.14(2) 27,164
(b) Archdeacon s.16(1) 36,140
(c) Dean s.13 36,613
(d) Assistant Bishop s.12 40,156
(e) Diocesan Bishop s.11(1) 43,699
From Fed-Up With It All
Just thought you might like to know that we could be witnessing another episcopal resignation in the next few days. Word has it that a bishop with the postcode LL57 2SS was the one who broke the confidentiality of the electoral college by telephoning Jeffrey John on 3rd March. It is, perhaps, typical of this particular bishop's lack of moral fibre that he has hidden behind all the focus on David Wilbourne breaking rank.
ReplyDeleteHow do I know? Well, it will come as little surprise to many readers of this esteemed organ that the aforementioned Bishop appointed an archdeacon with even less moral rectitude, and who cannot help flaunting his power by letting people know that he knows more than they do!
Now wouldn't that be natural justice.
DeleteA leaking Bishop brought down by a cottaging Archdeacon with a police record and a big mouth.
Speaking of big mouths, +John Davies needs to know that the ears in the walls report the Capon spends a considerable amount of time on the phone providing His --Darkness of Llys Ego with a daily report of comings & goings, rumours, suppositions, scandal and gossip.
Exactly the kind of tittle-tattle on The Green that "Scapegoat" so dislikes, except when his little dud in the Deanery is doing it, then it's fine.
LL57 2SS? I have a copy of a fax sent to that post code by the Express on Sunday Nov 2nd 1997. Anyone know how I can trace it?
DeleteYou could publish it on here.
DeleteThere seem to be some very effective sleuths who frequently read and contribute to Ancient Briton!
@FRCO
DeleteI hope and pray that's true.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oath
"The essence of a divine oath is an invocation of divine agency to be a guarantor of the oath taker's own honesty and integrity in the matter under question. By implication, this invokes divine displeasure if the oath taker fails in their sworn duties. It therefore implies greater care than usual in the act of the performance of one's duty, such as in testimony to the facts of the matter in a court of law."
If +John Davies has the evidence of breaking an oath of confidentiality then he would be wise to you use it without hesitation and cauterise the wound. To do otherwise only increases the risk of the corruption spreading. This is so serious it cannot be ignored.
King James Bible - Matthew 5:29
And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Hole in one Episkopos.
DeleteAn additional benefit is that it will be immeasurably less harmful to the Church in Wales than waiting for the other alleged imminent scandal to hit the fan which runs the risk of further squeals of "Homophobia" from carefully selected MPs, the media, Scapegoat at al ad nauseum.
At least Wilbourne had the insight and intellect to sense the wind direction.
DeleteI can't say the same for Andy Pandy.
Or Masson.
I am surprised that, seeing the writing on the walls, Barry Morgan hasn't thrown Andy Pandy under the Bus already.
DeleteThat's his usual MO.
Others are not so sure you have the correct information. Are you looking at the right Bishop? Maybe not.
DeleteMr Plod maybe correct. I would be grateful if commentators would avoid further speculation and allow the Bench to deal with the matter. Many thanks.
DeleteDoes that mean Janet Henderson's record for the briefest appointment is at risk of being broken?
DeleteIf so, what a fitting commentary that would be on Barry Morgan's legacy.
The question is whether 3 of the Bishop's will have the moral courage and strength of character to defrock the other 2?
Let's hope so.
Masson still needs to go too.
Keep draining the swamp +John.
Sorry, AB, those figures didn’t come through very clearly. If I may clarify,
ReplyDeleteThis is what all this nonsense is costing the faithful person in the pew.
From January 1 2017, the minimum stipend of each, per annum, in each Diocese, is:
(a) Residentiary Canon £27,164
(b) Archdeacon £36,140
(c) Dean £36,613
(d) Assistant Bishop £40,156
(e) Diocesan Bishop £43,699
These figures taken from the Constitution of the Church in Wales.
Time for me to review my giving - other more worthy causes are out there.
Fed-Up With It All
Plus housing providing which add at least 8-10k on top I would have thought.
DeleteNot a huge salary for a professional if you're a mere Vicar though is it even taking into account housing benefit. When you think especially how hard some are working.
DeleteWhen it comes to housing costs didn't the diocese cough up in the region of £650,000 to house the Ass-B in the manner he thought he should be accustomed after he decided the assistant bishop's residence didn't match his expectations? Julian
DeletePlus, for those in a Parish, their annual Easter offerings.
DeleteBonaparte used to get over £4k.
And how many clergy take an Easter Offering in this day and age ?
DeleteFar more than Anna Morrell would have us believe.
Delete@Masson must go next
ReplyDeleteAgree completely. Bishop John has much, much more support than perhaps he realises. It is actually quite important to point out that other gay candidates were considered (as was widely discussed, apparently correctly, on your blog, AB). They just aren't considered by Barry Morgan.
Masson must be sacked next for nepotistic-email-gate: arrogant, inappropriate and nepotistic to the core. His friend, his child's godfather.
Nepotism, "the practice among those with power or influence of favouring relatives or friends, especially by giving them jobs" (oxforddictionaries.com)
That would take care of problem 1.
Problem 2: As has also been mentioned, David Wilbourne was not the leak from the bishops meeting. So who was?
This is what I don't get.
DeleteWas the unanimity of the Llandavian electors based, at least some of it, on the desire not to appoint a woman? If so, then this is sexism is it not?
No letters from MP's on that score then, no letters from the chapters of St Albans and Ely Cathedrals....talk about selective.
You're being a bit slow on the uptake there Whamab.
DeleteBarry's cunning plan spiked the guns of the MAE coven by arranging for Joanna to be handed St. David's on a plate and installing her in January.
How could the feminists realistically get any mileage out of allegations the Church in Wales is institutionally misogynist less than a month after that?
Plus, as "Hack" noted on a previous thread, His --Darkness had already played that card with the false allegations that Janet Henderson had resigned as the first female Dean of Llandaff due to "resistance" form fellow clergy who were opposed to priestesses and at least two of the MAE coven already been on the Llandaff Cathedral chapter for a number of years.
Shocking figures Anonymous - Well spotted.
ReplyDeleteIn his interview on Sunday morning Bishop John Davis identified three Legal Office holders who were present at the electoral deliberations.
What did they cost the Church in salaries and fees I wonder?
Exactly 20 years ago Bazza's legal eagles in Bangor were paid stellar fees for a stellar injustice.
As with all Lawyers you get what you pay for.
Now ! What precisely are your instructions Bishop?
They are all members of staff of the RB. They cost their normal salaries!!!
ReplyDeleteGross misconduct by one or more bishops. Toxic, crooked, just plain wrong. Drain the swamp.
ReplyDeleteLL57 2SS via post code finder is in Bangor maybe a certain bishop!
ReplyDeleteNever mind Bangor.
ReplyDeleteThe gossip on The Green tonight is that the annual Llandaff Christian Aid collection is struggling to find sufficient collectors.
That's hardly a surprise when Gerwhine and his little cabal spend all their time discussing antiques instead of charity!
DeleteDon't waste your time trying to recruit the gay corner in the LGBT Cathedral, they're too busy screaming blue murder for Jeffrey John.
DeleteWhen they're not doing that they're too busy in the antiques fairs to donate time to Christian Aid!
Jenny Wigley ready to step in........
ReplyDeleteYou must be bloody joking!
DeleteShe's too busy playing Quidditch for Slytherin House on her broomstick.
And when not playing Quidditch she's too busy banging her tambourine and prancing up the aisle.
Witch.
Jenny Wigley. Now she would unite the Diocese of Llandaff. Not! I think the Chrism Mass in Llandaff should be video recorded for posterity as the moment when the cracks got so big that not even Gerwhine and his receding bunch of adoring women of a certain age cannot paper over. Which begs the question, where has Peggy the Pilate disappeared to? Always one to squawk and crow, there is a an unnerving silence from her direction. Ditto 'the other candidate.' Has a gagging measure been imposed from Ely Tower lest anyone else is seen to be exercising leadership and thereby pose a threat to Honest John?
ReplyDelete'I would be grateful if commentators would avoid further speculation and allow the Bench to deal with the matter. Many thanks.'
ReplyDeleteCome on, AB, what's happening? Which Provincial legal office is leaning on you? Or have you suddenly had a startling revelation of the propriety of the Bench that they can be trusted to deal with this themselves? Turkeys voting for Christmas? I don't think so.
Nobody has been leaning on me Nigel, apart from the early days when Barry's team tried to silence me for infringing copyright of published CinW photos.
DeletePlease see "Church investigates official complaints into homophobia against gay cleric" http://www.christiantoday.com/article/church.investigates.official.complaints.into.homophobia.against.gay.cleric/106243.htm
Thanks, AB. Always one to be on top of breaking news. I get this and it will be interesting to see what comes out in the wash. But could this be a smokescreen to evade identifying the Bishop of, let's say, Wherever, for gross misconduct and 'briefing against his/her employer'? Whatever this blog may think of him as one of Barry Morgan's flunkies, at least Bishop David Wilbourne has shown his integrity by being absolutely candid about what he had said - and to whom. And he wasn't bound by a legal oath of confidentiality!
DeleteJeffrey John's letter does not say that a Bishop phoned him. It says 'in a telephone call'. Perhaps JJ made the first move and what the press are reporting is wrong.
DeleteAll due respect to AB, but I agree with Nigel Evans. This could be a protracted procrastination to conclude what we already know: that the process was legitimate because the Llandaff electors only had 12 votes out of 47. Therefore the process was correctly followed as far as it goes. There will be a lot of handwringing over homophobia in the media, and the bishop who telephoned Jeffrey John on 3rd March will have quietly slipped our attention and evaded due process. Justice? Not in my book. I, too, would not trust the Bench Sitters to self-regulate, and I bet I'm not the only one.
ReplyDeleteI take your point Hymn Singer. I do not want to muzzle fair comment, only accusations which are too pointed without supporting evidence.
DeleteI have written the following the letter to the Provincial Secretary of the Church in Wales (getting hold of his email details on the C in W website proved fruitless, by the way: I had to go to the Anglican Communion information service. Any reason for this?). I hope it fulfils your requirement of fair comment, in that I have provided a clear caveat that my information and conclusions may be completely wrong.
ReplyDeleteDear Mr Lloyd
I was pleased to read on the Christian Today website (but, sadly, no public acknowledgement on the Church in Wales website so far) that the process to appoint the next Bishop of Llandaff has been halted pending an investigation in to the legal legitimacy of the Electoral College process. This will reassure many of us that the bishops are subject to a degree of scrutiny and accountability. It will also provide much needed breathing space, as counselled by many others prior to the Electoral College, to allow an appropriate period of discernment and reflection.
Could you please assure me, and many other people who regularly worship in the Church in Wales (and who contribute realistically and sacrificially to its mission and ministry) that you will also investigate the matter of the diocesan bishop who breached the legal requirement of confidentiality on all electors by telephoning Dr Jeffrey John on 3rd March? There is a widespread belief, based on a leak by one of his senior staff, that this is the Bishop of Bangor. It may not be and I may be completely wrong in my conclusion. But only a rigorous investigation will settle the matter and further restore public trust and confidence in the Bench of Bishops. You hardly need me to tell you that, at present, the actions of the Bench is contributing to a widespread perception of the Church in Wales as an institution worthy of ridicule.
I am writing directly to you because my attempts to correspond with the Bishop of Swansea and Brecon are being met with what I can only describe as perfunctory evasiveness.
Yours sincerely
Gareth James.
To clarify. JJ's letter does not say that a bishop telephoned him. It says 'in a telephone call'. JJ may have rung him and until that and also the identity of bishop is revealed we shouldn't be presuming anything. Likewise I hope enquiries are made as to who leaked the deliberations of the Electoral College to JJ and MPs.
ReplyDeleteFor the benefit of readers, this is the relevant extract from Dr John's letter published by Wales Online:
Delete"In a telephone call on the evening of March 3rd one of the bishops present confirmed to me that these were the only objections adduced, and explained that the bishops were ‘just too exhausted’ to deal with the problems they believed my appointment would cause."
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/furious-letter-gay-cleric-sent-12769110
Whoever made the call, the oath of confidentiality must have been broken to form the basis of Dr John's claims.
"One of the bishops present confirmed to me". There were 5. One of them leaked the confidential proceedings to Jeffrey John. Gross misconduct. Drain the swamp.
Delete" Psychic " says : So one of the 5 Bishops present was contacted by Barry saying 'give Jeffrey a call and explain it seems to be a homophobic reason '. Barry also says 'I cannot speak to Jeffrey directly as it might look as though I am interfering !!!. If you do it then Jeffrey may choose to go public on this , and there will then be a chance to reverse the decision.'
DeleteBarry will never relinquish his calculating modus operandi .
@Mr Plod
DeleteTo clarify accurately.
Go to https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzMyH8nMD_OdVTJWaEdRWktnSE0/view
Second paragraph up from the foot of page 1.
Barry has been the promoter of JJ -had lunch in the County Club a few weeks before the Electoral College.
ReplyDeleteBarry certain to find out from someone why his choice was not elected. That 'someone' would be a person also promoting JJ, and who being in favour of the homosexual Dean would surely have reported back to Barry in exaggerated language (or Barry put his own spin on the gossip).
There has always been a very virulent grapevine around Llandaff and the CinW.
Now that's an excellent summary of Barry Bonk Simple Soul?
DeleteI'm amazed that five Llandaff electors have now emerged from the woodwork to register their complaint. Where have they been until now and who can be "pulling their strings"? No prizes for the answer to that one! Given the fact that there were three legal representatives present at the meeting of the college and given also Bishop John Davies's assurances, this smacks of an attempt to rewrite history in order to secure the desired result. What were these legal representatives doing during the discussion? If they raised no legal objections during the proceedings, either they were failing in their duties or there was in fact nothing to object to. Given John Davies's assurances, the latter possibility carries the greater weight. So are we now to endure further machinations while the diocese cries out for a new leader and when most people I speak to are becoming increasingly disillusioned with the politics of the C in W. JJ has hardly covered himself in glory over this. He broke the confidentiality in his reply to Bishop John, he has played the victim's card to excess and his espousal of the cause of same-sex marriage has alienated him from many. The reasoning behind the push for same sex marriage, as put forward by the former archbishop and also JJ
ReplyDeletehas been effectively demolished by several theologians of repute. But, of course, those who pursue this line of thought believe that "the church doesn't deserve to be listened to." The media frenzy that this business has generated has clearly been orchestrated by people who should know better but who are keen to advance their own cause at the expense of everything else. So where do we go from here? Unless this matter can be resolved soon, I can only suggest that we go into the darkness in which the C in W itself will be the victim as it becomes increasingly irrelevant to the lives of the many people in the pews who have sustained it for so long. The secularisation of the church seems to be well underway. The future looks bleak and recent trends as revealed in attendance figures are bound to increase with calamitous effects for a once proud institution.
Nemesis
From farce to tragedy. According to a Cranmer Tweet the Welsh Assembly has become involved:
Delete".@AssemblyWales raises alleged homophobic statements pertaining to Jeffrey John / Bishop of Llandaff. It's absolutely none of their business
https://twitter.com/His_Grace
Who could possibly want Jeffrey John as their bishop apart from the gay lobby seeking to extend their influence? As has been observed previously, what diocese would want to become the focus of attention for all the wrong reasons. John would simply be the Gene Robinson of the Church in Wales and we know the fate of the Episcopal Church in the US.
How revealing is it that only 5 of the 12 Llandaff electors have signed the complaint?
DeleteMaybe the other 7 have woken up to what a nasty piece of work Jeffrey John has revealed himself to be in his letter to John Davies and want nothing more to do with him. Certainly the silent majority in Llandaff certainly want nothing to do with him or his twisted "theology".
I hope +John Davies will take inspiration from Winston Churchill : "If you're going through hell, keep going."
I perceive these latest ruses (of a formal complaint and involving the Welsh Assembly) are symptoms of Barry Morgan's increasing desperation and his last roll of the dice.
I am certainly no Tory AB. But I wouldn't mind betting that Andrew Davies might put an end to this Ecclesiastical Banana Republic that's engulfed us .
DeleteRe the costs of the higher stipends.
ReplyDeleteSalaries between £27,000-£40,000 are significant sums to pay to anyone (in the Church in Wales, it is, we are told. the enhanced stipend, from Residentiary Canon to Assistant Bishop).
To my understanding, only a very few of the current recipients of such remuneration, underwent a normative recruitment process, i.e. submission of an application form, selection according to essential and desirable criteria and interview by a qualified panel. Most were appointed through the exercise of considerable personal patronage.
It’s surely unhealthy for any organization to by-pass accepted recruitment methods for its leadership roles. And it cannot foster collegiality when good, prospective candidates, are simply not given the opportunity to demonstrate their aptitude and capacity for the jobs in question.
When the particular, rather pressing circumstances, of an important recruitment matter, have been concluded, perhaps the whole system of making appointments, in the Province, should also be reviewed and rectified.
Seems +David is not the only hierarchical figure to show courage. MP Sir John Randall says he regrets votes against same sex marriage. In his letter he says he knew he was “going to be on the wrong side” because those who supported same-sex marriage were “some of the nicest people I came across, something that couldn’t be said about those opposing”.
ReplyDeleteMakes you think.
What @Commonsense40 is proposing is, well, common sense. But in a dictatorship, normal recruitment processes are suspended. Under the patronage of Barry the Golfer, the criteria for appointment to a senior post were: (a) the appointee would not pose a threat to the All-Holy Maharajah by being more intellectually able; (b) the appointee would never question the spurious agenda the aforementioned Maharajah was imposing on the Church; (c) the appointee would not have any charisma, media saviness or pre-existing public pofile in Wales; (d) the appointee would lack any spherical qualities; (e) the appointee would shut up and do as they were told.
ReplyDeleteAs the meerkats would say, 'Simples'! And, as the Golfer would say "who shall I make the cheque payable to"?
Spot on. Bulls eye old chum.
DeleteYes indeed, @Commonsense and @Evans the Song, if ordinary people in the pew, struggling to get by on pensions and low incomes only realized how their giving to the Church is so capriciously spent, they would, I suspect…stop giving.
ReplyDeleteFrom: Time to Wake-Up
Just for info scapegoat, though I appriciate that there are a lot of very nice pro gay marriage people out there, there are also a lot of bulllies. When I said I oppose Same Sex marriage in Church duiring a public consultation I was hounded by phone, called a dinasor and basically abused. I did not say it was 'an abomination' in the meeting. I even spoke of how I strongly supported on civl partnerships. I spoke a secluar equuality, but stressed that inside the Church and amoung Christians, I can not on theological grounds execpt it. For futher info I am gutted about that. It would be a lot easier and a lot more fitting with my personality to be in favour. But I have to sumbit to God's ways. There have been no good scholariship supporting same sex marriage, so it is with a heavy heart that I have to exept that it is not something I can support. Howver, I am also scared not to put my name to it. You may note this is an anon post. that is becuse I am worried about potential ramifications for putting my personal view over. The growth of ‘Liberal Fascism’ on this issue has been staggering, especially in the last few years. A silent core of clergy and laity are now to scared to share thier views.
ReplyDeleteHow sad, indeed tragic, that an honest expression of christian views should elicit such responses. Don't worry anonymous, you're not alone! There are many of the same opinion and are convinced that the introduction of same sex marriage would result in schism. As you say it's nothing to do with being "nice" or otherwise; it's all to do with the maintenance of christian teaching. The gradual erosion of this teaching and the increasing secularisation of the church will undoubtedly lead to its demise. Core beliefs and fundamental teachings cannot be sacrificed on a false interpretation of equality. All of us are sinners in one way or another and the church is there for all of us in equal measure. But the sacrament of marriage is based firmly on biblical teaching and cannot be misinterpreted to simply to follow societal trends. Take heart anonymous and hold to the faith.
DeleteNemesis
Anonymous, your comment was published in error because you did not add a pen name. Too late now but if you comment again please add a name of your choice to identify you from others. Thanks.
DeleteI for one can sympathize with you fearful worshiper. There have been lots of very nice gay people in my church over the years but many have left because of our gay vicar and his cabal. He dislikes any views which are not his own so he has frequent tantrums which have cost our church dearly. Unlike hardworking vicars with many churches to look after he has one church, and has a monopoly on funerals which pay for his frequent foreign holidays with his partner while he castigates his congregation for not pulling their weight! Another bully to add to your list. Fellow sufferer
DeleteI can't understand the debate about how much the clergy are paid. The stipends above are paid to a very small minority. The clergy on the ground are paid about 23k. And get their house. They are professional men most with degrees and would earn probably double that in secular employment. A lot of these have been clergy since leaving college in their 20's. The house is a bonus but at some stage in their ministry they have to buy a home for retirement. That's not easy saving money on that stipend.
ReplyDeleteI think as well, there are massive differences in clergy pay, thanks to the crazy idea of keeping funeral and wedding fees, (unlike England where they go back to HQ and all clergy are paid more, and the same amount). Many clergy are doing 4/5 funerals a week at £80 each, while in other parishes the clergy hardly see a funeral. Retired clergy try to sweep them up too, for the money, as do the non conformists. This means one Vicar might be busy visiting the sick, doing school assemblies etc, building up the church, while their neighbour is just doing funerals all week.
DeleteI spoke to a ministry team leader here in Monmouth the other day who says they just rush around doing meetings and funerals.
I know when this was debated at governing body Canon S Kirk said that clergy could not manage without the fees............he didn't say that some have to manage.
So being a priest is a 'job' now ,is it? Not a vocation?
DeleteAs far as degrees go, there undoubtedly is a number of priests holding worthwhile degrees. However,if the former St.Michaels Collegr is anything to go by, degress were dished out to everyone on some continuous assessment essays. No batch of 3 hour papers to sit after 3 years of undergraduate study.
Did anyone ever fail? I regret to say that some of the ordinands would not have been granted a sniff of a university place, and the degree gained would not buy them any employment in the secular world.
Just a point of information. In recent years, (at least 10) I am not sure how long, degrees were provided by Cardiff University and were subject to their Russell Group standards. I believe this has changed with the advent of St Padarn's.
DeleteI don't know what you're all moaning about.
DeleteDegrees of stupidity are abundant in Llandaff.
The majority of clerics in the Bangor diocese have no degrees and have never seen the inside of a theological college. Many even, have no o level or gcse. Entrance to many of those ordained during the last 20 years has been purely on the merits of a few essays. Some have been promoted canons in the cathedral. As for serving a curacy, they wouldn't know what you were talking about.
ReplyDeleteThe Simpsons
I should add, that such low intellect among clergy is comforting to to bench sitters. It is noted that a certain Bangor Oxford 1st gave His Darkness the runs. Then look what happened to Marlon - the 'fool on the hill'.
DeleteThe Simpsons
I think it is worrying that we now have a two tier way of training. Most used to go to college, sacrificially for 3-4 years. Now many, mainly ex teachers in their 50's, are training NSM, then after a few years going full time.
DeleteI recall someone asking an NSM lady who had gone full time, what they believed about the Bible, to be told that she didn't really know much about the Bible!!
Well @I’m not so sure and @The Simpsons, The debate wasn’t about ordinary clergy stipends. It was about the higher stipends, what they cost and how they are awarded.
ReplyDeleteFrom Time to Wake-Up
Dear Wilma
DeleteThere is a statement above which claims that most clergy have degrees. Clearly I hit a sensitive nerve spot? Time for you to wake up as well then?
The Simpsons
I am a priest. Gotta say for me I now I'm blessed I am to do the job/vocation I love and get paid for it. There are some issues around houses vs housing allowance etc etc. But I know I get to do what I love to do.....and there's not many I know who say that. If it helps I've got a couple of degree's! And also that makes me no better or worse than my mates wbo dont !
DeleteHLCW
How true HLCW. We are no better than anyone else, "For all have sinned, and all have fallen short of the Glory (doxa) of God". Try telling that to Andy Pandy and Barry Bonk. I am well informed by 'Billy Two Rivers' of Bangor, that whilst the former allows you a birds eye view up his nostrils when on Bangor high st, the latter, when not amused, has a face like a lavatory cleaner. More work on the air brushed photos for His Darkness then. For gods sake Carwyn and Edwina - here's the perfect tea boy for you.
DeleteSome VERY interesting reports from the ears in the walls today dear bloggers.
ReplyDeleteThe ears claim that the report - published at http://www.christiantoday.com/article/church.investigates.official.complaints.into.homophobia.against.gay.cleric/106243.htm - by the faux journalist "Charley" Farley is mistaken.
The word on The Green is that it is NOT "Five members of the Church in Wales' secretive electoral college" that have "an official complaint after a gay cleric was barred from being appointed Bishop of Llandaff." but four members of the Llandaff chapter.
Three of the names identified thus far are Wigley, Masson & Capon.
Quelle surprise!
One also hears, contrary to expectations, Tuesday's Chapter meeting was a damp squib.
DeleteDespite the facts it was the first meeting since the departure of His --Darkness and the leaking of Masson the moron's email, it was all rather subdued.
Three Canons were missing but the rest were like nodding dogs on a car parcel shelf as though they're all shell-shocked.
The latest Cathedral accounts went through on a nod and a wink but the Electoral College scandal didn't merit a mention.
Let me guess, there's another peculiar re-evaluation of the Cathedral property portfolio again this year?
DeleteOf course they were all sat there like nodding Churchills. Who appointed them?
DeleteSupine Canons in the Llandaff Chapter?
DeleteJust another day at the office.
The failure of even one of them to grow a pair lends credence to the theory bully boy --Bazza continues to oversee all from behind the curtain at Llys Ego.
If it is true that Wigley, Masson and Capon are the source of the complaint they are obviously challenging the assurances given by Bishop John Davies and the fact that there were legal representatives present at the college. One can only suspect once again that they are merely puppets who are prepared to have their strings pulled! There is obviously a malign influence at work here which is doing untold damage to the C in W. Unless we soon have a bishop who is untarnished by this unseemly business and who can open a fresh chapter for the diocese of Llandaff then there can be no hope for its future. More and more ordinary parishioners have had enough and are likely to walk away as they see the church more and more concerned with secular/political issues than with its true mission.
DeleteNemesis
What a pretty picture you paint Episkopos.
DeleteI can easily imagine them all sat around the tables in the Prebendal House, all nodding and smiling benignly at each other while simultaneously thinking to themselves "Which of you effing bastards is stabbing me in the back"?
Nest of vipers in deed and thought.
Just to update you. Earlier in this thread, I copied the letter I had sent to the Provincial Secretary about the issue of a Bishop breaching his oath of legal confidentiality, and asked, specifically, if this would be included as part of the investigation. Predictably, the obfuscation and dissembling has reached beyond the Bench of Bishops to the lay secretariat. This is the reply I received:
ReplyDeleteDear Mr James,
Thank you for your e-mail the contents of which I note.
The current position is
Five members of the Electoral College, which was assembled to elect the Bishop of Llandaff in February, have now submitted a complaint to me as the Secretary of the Electoral College. Their complaint is in relation to certain aspects of the conduct of the College. This matter has now been referred to the Legal Sub-Committee, which is a body in the Church in Wales assembled to consider legal and governance matters.
The responsibility of appointing the next Bishop of Llandaff has passed to the Bench of Bishops. It is too early to say whether the deliberations of the Legal Sub Committee will have any effect on the timing of an announcement.
Best wishes
Simon
Simon J Lloyd
Provincial Secretary
No risk of any member of the Bench being disciplined and so the malaise continues on and on and on into the sunset...
In the meantime, any suggestions as to how we can flush the offending prelate out of the bunker?
Lloyd is being as evasive as one would expect of another minion of His --Darkness but perhaps his letter reveals more than he would have wished.
DeleteThe only "matter" to which he refers is the complaint made by the "five members of the Electoral College" and he has used that part of your original letter as a means of avoiding answering your question.
His failure to answer your question suggests that the five Electors have not filed a complaint against the leaking Bishop. Why would they? He's obviously a supporter of Jeffrey John, as are they, so they are in the same camp.
In fact, Jeffrey John made a huge tactical blunder in revealing the existence of a leaking Bishop in his open letter, a blunder which neither the leaking Bishop nor Barry Morgan would have anticipated or expected.
Gareth, I suggest a second letter of one line only.
Dear Mr Lloyd,
Is the matter of the leaking diocesan Bishop, who breached the legal requirement of confidentiality on all electors by telephoning Dr Jeffrey John on 3rd March, being investigated?
Yours,.....etc.
If he doesn't reply or replies in the negative then another formal complaint needs to be submitted to him as Provincial Secretary and Secretary of the Electoral College, limited to that one specific issue, providing Lloyd with no wriggle room.
Further single issue complaints about the roles of Barry Morgan, Masson, Capon, Wigley are also recommended.
I think you are correct Augustine.
DeleteUnder what definition is breaking a sacred oath and confidentiality an issue for a "Legal Sub-Committee, which is a body in the Church in Wales assembled to consider legal and governance matters"?
I call "Bullshit" on Simon Lloyd.
How much standing can the Legal Sub-Committee have 1662 after Professor Thomas Watkin's withering assessment:
Delete"The interpretation placed upon the rubric by the Legal Sub-Committee not only circumvents the Church's due processes for alteration to rites and discipline. In its consequences, it displays a scant respect for - or an inchoate understanding of - the rule of law in Church affairs."
https://ancientbritonpetros.blogspot.co.uk/2017/03/dodgy-legal-advice-leads-to-eucharistic.html
Thank you AB, I'd forgotten that recent spat.
DeleteI call "Bullshit" on the Legal Sub-Committee too.
The swamp is wider and deeper than we realised.
Get draining +John Davies.
And in God's name get rid of the leaking bench sitter.
If you don't only more damage will result.
Professor Thomas Watkin's comments indicate clearly that we can have no confidence in the work of the Legal Sub-committee but this fact will not prevent them from producing some sort of adjudication. Questions arise - was any member of this group present at the meeting of the electoral college? From whom will they take evidence? Hardly from any member of the college if they are bound by an an oath of confidentiality - but that has counted for little in this sordid business! Are they to question the integrity of Bishop John Davies who has given clear assurances about the conduct of the meeting? And what of the legal representatives who were present, as well as the "facilitator"? The whole thing seems to be some sort of kangaroo court, instigated by people who should know better, who have their own particular cause to advance and who can't accept the fact that they haven't had their own way. They seem to be affected by a type of collective neurosis. How much longer do we have to endure this orchestrated campaign? Enough is enough! Stop playing the victim card and get rid of the chips on your shoulders!
ReplyDeleteNemesis
The only answer from the legal sub committee is that they have no juristiction in this matter. The senior bishop's reputation depends on it. Just call the complainants' bluff and then let the purge begin. The whole electoral college system is screwed if the oath breakers get away with this,
ReplyDeleteThe Electoral college system was screwed from the moment the various disreputable electors and bishop opened their mouths, history will record this specific Llandaff Electoral college and those who took part with infamy and disrepute.
DeleteBut the good Lord and the Holy Ghost move in mysterious ways.
The true bitchy nature of Jeffrey John has seen the light of day at last, Masson has confirmed previous suspicions that he is a scheming and duplicitous bastard, at least five (maybe all) of the Llandaff electors have been revealed as oath breakers and slaves to Barry Morgan's secular queering agenda, the 'queer quartet' have been flushed into the open and at least one of the useless bench sitters has also been revealed by Jeffrey John as an oath breaker.
All in the space of just four weeks.
Would anyone have anticipated any of this prior to 21st February?
The Holy Ghost has provided +John Davies with the opportunity to purge Llandaff and the Church in Wales of a lot of dross.