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| Out of the same mould? Abp Morgan and Canon Wigley enjoying the moment in Lampeter. Photos: BBC |
A former Dean of Llandaff was fond of saying that he liked women with balls, ie, loud. Womanly virtues were secondary.
The report indicates that while Easter communicants, average Sunday attendance and Electoral Roll membership have fallen by close to 50% in the last twenty years, statistics gathered over the last two years suggest that there is growth in the Church’s work in non-traditional forms of activity with people of all ages. Termed “Other Acts of Worship” these include:
The vote engineered by the softly-spoken but utterly ruthless Dr Morgan and the vocal Canon Wigley effectively emasculates the Church in Wales. In the words of the Ven. Peggy Jackson who co-sponsored the fatal cut, the Church in Wales has changed for ever. Not just Wales. These women and their sycophantic supporters will stop at nothing to achieve dominance. Calls for equality will evaporate.
Members of WATCH are eagerly licking their lips in preparation to deliver the fatal blow to the Church of England with the collusion of their weak-kneed bishops. Canon Wigley said she hoped women in the Church of England would be encouraged by the result: "Sisters across Offa's Dyke, look to us," she said.
One of the 'sisters' in England, the Archbishop of Canterbury's new Acting Press Officer intrigued me after the news that according to the 2011 census the City of Norwich was rated the most godless city in England. She claimed that the good people of Norwich are "doing their church-going differently". The answer to that puzzle may be found in the Church in Wales Membership and Finances 2012 (here).
• Cafe style worship, and pub Bible study;
• Healing services;
• Pet and other animal blessing services;
• Messy church;
• Discipleship groups;
• Taize-inspired services;
• Quiet times and meditations;
• Singing groups and music projects for children;
• Celtic services and Benedictine compline.
Perhaps the ever popular 'coffee' services can be expanded and sponsored by Starbucks to provide people with what they want without commitment together with an element of financial security.
For now the girls will need lots of patience. Barry has his tail up. He is the oldest bishop but will be in no hurry to retire and then there is the inevitable question of downsizing. When a vacancy does arise there will be calls from those who constantly claim discrimination to appoint a women regardless of the abilities of male candidates. By then the scales will have fallen from the eyes of male clerical supporters and they will see that they have no future, the end of Anglicanism many of us have known and loved since childhood.
For now the girls will need lots of patience. Barry has his tail up. He is the oldest bishop but will be in no hurry to retire and then there is the inevitable question of downsizing. When a vacancy does arise there will be calls from those who constantly claim discrimination to appoint a women regardless of the abilities of male candidates. By then the scales will have fallen from the eyes of male clerical supporters and they will see that they have no future, the end of Anglicanism many of us have known and loved since childhood.
For the present Barry's next aim will be same-sex marriage in church. He has already expressed his firm approval of gay bishops so his dream retirement present will be two lesbian bishops coming to plight their troth under Jacob Epstein's Majestas as the new £1.5m organ in his bankrupt cathedral blasts out: "Here come the brides".
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| Lining up at Governing Body Picture: BBC |
Ha, ha, we won, you lost - just get over it! You lot have had your day. Now we have control of the church all you can do is blog yourself to a break down. Next stop gay marriage, demasculinized worship and the end of those men only secret groups like SSC. The bench had better watch out - we want it composed in proportion to the number of women in the church in wales so four of them must resign NOW and replaced by four of the sisterhood. Either they go peacefully or we use the scandal files to gently nudge them out.
ReplyDeleteJackson & Wigley - the Power House of Wales.
Au contraire, victory is in the Holy Cross on which we gaze, not on each other. Politics cannot suppress true faith.
DeleteI'm not sure if the comment by Anonymous is in jest or deadly serious. The faith of the Apostles, kept for two thousand years cannot be defeated by this vote by the Church in Wales. We have the promise that the gates of hell will not prevail against the church and our victory is in the cross of Christ Crucified in which sign we conquer.
ReplyDeleteI can't believe that women clergy want the likes of Anonymous rooting for them. S/he is far removed from any sort of Christian perspective as are so many 'supporters' of women bishops. If such unreasoned and hate-filled argument wins the day, women bishops will be handed their so called 'victory' in a poisoned chalice and none of us will want to be a part of the Church of England be it ever so nicely wrapped up in a code of practice.
ReplyDelete'If such unreasoned and hate-filled argument wins the day, women bishops will be handed their so called 'victory' in a poisoned chalice' no ifs here, to experience it first hand you try and be a traditionalist Anglican worshipping at Llandaff Cathedral
DeleteAnonymous wrote: "Ha, ha we won, you lost - just get over it!"
ReplyDeleteI am very grateful to you for removing the speck from the eye of our Anglo-Catholic brothers and sisters - please do remember us when we come into the Kingdom of Cambrensis.
I am also very relieved that you and your sisters have found the wide gate with such ease and 'condemned' your Catholic and Evangelical brothers and sisters to the narrow gate - it must give you such an enormous sense of achievement.
However, I am a somewhat concerned for the wellbeing of your soul, given the hubristic nature of your above comment. Given your remarkably cogent arguments for which I have developed such an instantaneous respect, I am sure that you have considered the implications of the Eschata and the whole notion of hubris - at the Eschaton, Nemesis will befriend your hubris, and the Patristic notion of Judgement will become a stark reality for you.
Whilst you are 'uncomfortable' with SSC - you may wish to reflect upon their motto: 'In Hoc Signo Vinces' - I won't insult your fine academic mind by translating it for you - especially as you have the excellent research tool used by all international triple refereed journals - Google.
Cogita peccata tua!
Since July 2012, in Llandaff alone, Darth Insidious (++Barry) has forcibly introduced the latest 2004 rite (referred to so fondly as the "sh*te rite"), wasted a lot of people's time by commissioning an utterly pointless "Questionnaire" from a grammar challenged Professor (that was never going to be published and made available to those who took the time and trouble to respond), wasted valuable cash on printing "New Liturgy Leaflets", banned Intinction, re-written the Nicene Creed, lost his new Dean, overseen a Cathedral Choir in disarray due to long running breaches of employment law and underpayment, lost a Head Verger, overseen the Cathedral going bust, alienated many of the Friends of Llandaff Cathedral, and ensured that the Church in Wales is no longer either Apostolic or Catholic.
ReplyDeleteAll that remains for him to do now for the feminazi sisterhood is to work out with what word he will replace "aMEN" and force that on everyone too.
If ever there was any doubt over the existence of Satan, the works of Satan and the false prophets about which we've all been warned for 2000 years, perhaps one should consider these two questions.
Would Satan launch an open full frontal assault on Christ's Church on earth (including Wales) that would be obvious to all believers and relatively easy to recognise, repel and defeat ?
Or would it be more likely that Satan would send devious, scheming, plotting, two-faced, divisive, dishonest worms to wriggle into the centre of the apple of Christ's Church (almost) unnoticed and rot it from the inside out, small bit by small bit, introducing a series of "progressive" issues over a long period of time, each and every one of which would be GUARANTEED to foment argument, set Christian against Christian, cause upset, slowly driving away the silent traditionalist majority, driving down communicant numbers, convincing regular traditionalist church-goers to leave taking their cheque books with them?
Perhaps the results speak for themselves.
According to the figures, communicants attending Church in Wales services in Bangor are already down to 176, which out of a population of 14,000, would be 1.26%!
To all intents and purposes the Church in Wales in Bangor has been wiped off the map.
The rest is not that far behind!
On his election as bishop of Bang-her,(late Bob Monkhouse term for Bangor) Andy, (Marlon to some) declared that he would fill churches within his diocese.
DeleteYour statistics for Bangor are alarming Anonymous. You'd get more in a Volkswagen Caravanetet.
+Swansea and Brecon is twitched. He’s just celebrated the 90th anniversary of his diocese, but his membership stats are in terminal free fall. Like Llandaff his cathedral is bankrupt. Nobody invites him to anything now. And all those former Anglo-Catholic friends, in whose close company he delighted when it was the expedient thing to do, have cut him cold. Then comes the defining moment in his episcopacy when he could have shown real leadership by providing a counterbalance to the archbishop and steering the Bench on a course that could have preserved its integrity – and he blew it. He gave into the archbishop. Total capitulation and loss of all credibility. He’s now a spent force, as bankrupt as his own cathedral and will always exist in the chillingly dark shadow the archbishop.
ReplyDelete@Ananias, the Bishop of St Asaph is just as bad. He assured us that Orthodox Anglicans have a valued place in the Church in Wales and that personally he would stand up for us. Cheap, shallow words. He caved into the real politick of Barry Morgan. It makes me wonder if a code of practice drawn up by such lily-livered prelates will be worth the paper it is written on? On current form the Bench will roll over like feeble puppies and do whatever the archbishop demands. None of them have the courage, strength of character or integrity to stand up to him.
DeleteInteresting though that +Swansea and Brecon should send around a circular about the vote assuring his support etc etc. Is he really in favour one ponders? If the supporters are to believed then we shall have them pouring into the church now, because not having women bishops was holding them back! Clearly the last 2000 years of the Church was just wrong.
ReplyDeleteRather today felt like a Church in collapse and division. The 90th Anniversary of the Diocese was lack lustre and there were plenty of empty seats in the Cathedral.
@Elliott King, it is now a straightforward question of a race for growth. If this was the right thing to do, then the CinW numbers will instantly sore. The mantra “Where’s the growth?” will undoubtedly haunt the supporters of this Bill until the CinW ceases to be a viable organisation, which from projections of its own membership figures will be in about 2025. Well before then at least three cathedrals will have to close. As for the clergy pension pot? Really how safe is it when the income is in meltdown? We are reaping the harvest of a three-decade pursuit of a minority issue by an increasingly marginalised, minority community that has ignored the Gospel.
DeleteUm, ‘Where’s the growth?’ During his time as archbishop the average weekly attendance figures for the Church in Wales has dropped from 42,000 to 31,000. That is an impressive 26% drop. No CEO in the real world would survive with that track record, and yet he is allowed to carry on. Never mind, we’ve always got ‘Back to Church Sunday’ ready to ‘turn the tide’. Carry on Cnut!!!
DeleteIf you'd like a very public indication of "growth" by which one might be able judge the progress at Llandaff under the stewardship of the comic duo Barry & Peggy, just spend 30 minutes of your time watching the August edition of 'Songs of Praise' from Llandaff Cathedral.
DeleteAnyone who knows the Cathedral well will spot the huge number of empty seats, carefully arranged camera angles designed to disguise the huge number of empty seats, the large number of singers imported from outside choirs by Bazza/Jackson/Avanti Productions (including a handful from Only Men Aloud)to 'bump up' the singing from the Land of Song and the almost total lack of Llandaff congregation regulars. Indeed, the attendance numbers were so poor that at the end of each recording session pleas were made for those few in attendance to bring along a friend or five to the following sessions (continuity having become an insignificance in the face of such underwhelming interest).
Perhaps Ancient Briton would agree host a competition of 'Spot the Llandaff Parishioner' for the November and March 2014 broadcasts with the profits to be donated to the long suffering Friends of Llandaff Cathedral?
Unfortunately the programme is no longer available on BBC iPlayer: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0397xwz
DeleteHowever, looking for the link I noticed in passing:
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/songs-praise-contract-award-complaint-3873071
Google "songs of praise llandaff cathedral" for lots more.
If you look on Youtube there is a six minute fragment of that edition of Songs of Praise, Julian Lloyd Webber playing the Karl Jenkins Benedictus.
DeleteThose in Llandaff who don't believe in coincidences suspect his Darknesship has pulled strings with his butties in the 'Taffia' at Avanti and the BBC to remove the embarrassing Llandaff excerpts of the production from public view.
Has anyone yet seen any Private Eye follow-up on the article in the May 17 issue reporting the 'wining & dining' of senior Songs of Praise staff by Avanti productions and the outcome of the investigation ordered by Lord Patten?
There was a report of this incident in the Telegraph in May:
Deletehttp://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/bbc/10071299/Songs-of-Praise-investigated-after-serious-concerns-over-production-contract.html
I see from the Avanti web site that "Avanti have recently relocated to new production headquarters in the City of Llandaf (sic)" http://www.avantimedia.tv/en/about/#avanti
As an outsider to both Wales and the Anglican Church, I can't see what all the surprise and fuss is about. The Church got going when Henry VIII decided he wanted his own rules and broke with the successor of St Peter, and now representatives of laity, clergy and bishops can all change doctrine by a simple vote. It's logical what's going to happen.
ReplyDeleteIt really is time to wake up and smell the coffee.
Although there is the Ordinariate, and the ability of Evangelicals to reorganise independently, the good old Anglican fudge will be served with the coffee, and everybody will live happily ever after...
For many Anglicans Locuste Iste it is not a simple choice for many reasons, not least for those among us whose faith was severely tested by their experiences in the Roman Catholic Church.
DeleteWe can all learn from each other, especially the Welsh bishops who would do well to note the reaction of Mgr Leo Cushley on being appointed the new Archbishop of St Andrews and Edinburgh:
“It is my sincere hope to [work] always in truth and in charity, with a view to reconciliation and healing among the Catholics of Edinburgh. My first task is to preach the good news, Christ crucified and risen from the dead, to confirm my brother priests in their Catholic faith and ministry, and to be a loving, simple, wise shepherd to the flock that has been entrusted to me.”
A refreshing change from the political drivel trotted out by bishops-elect in the Church in Wales.
As an impartial and disinterested observer of all things Anglican it did cross my mind that the intemperate and basically insensitive contribution of 'Ha,ha, we won etc' might just be a mischief maker or a self-appointed Fifth Columnist who delights in stirring things up. Either way I think the tone of the comment did not merit a response and that by responding it somehow dignifies its real or invented/imagined bile.
ReplyDeleteI considered that possibility Outsider but the attitude expressed has not been uncommon and there has been worse. A former prelate, since claimed as a convert to WO, suffered the most appalling abuse as he was coerced into following the line of the Bench of Bishops. If you read the comments on the Thinking Anglicans blog you will see that bile still pours forth on anyone not following the liberal agenda.
DeleteThe liberal lobby will stop at nothing so by the same token, who is to say that your comment is not a damage limitation exercise? Readers must draw their own conclusions.
Can we expect to see Mrs Jackson or Mrs Wigley rewarded by Dr Morgan for their efforts and appointed as the next Dean of Llandaff?
ReplyDeleteI thought that former had touched down at the Deanery and was already running the show with great success?
ReplyDeleteI was shocked to watch the BBC wales coverage of this debate - those who are ant-women came across as incredulous and, if you don't mind my saying, a little bit thick. That young guy - Ben was his name - why on earth would someone so young as he say what he said - he did't offer any theological justification for his position but just said he was not prepared to work for a woman. It's been my experience (if I am honest) that those who are anti women do tend towards being intellectually challenged. Just stating a truth (as I have encountered it). And all this talk about decline - let's be honest - those churches that are most in decline are those lead by anti-women priests (they don't draw in people from their immediate parishes, but those who have left other parishes because a woman has come along). There's a woman priest over in Cathays who has grown her congregation whilst the anti-woman priest neighboring her has seen his congregation dwindle because he wants to take them to the orindariate (however you spell it). Pot, kettle ... come on guys (you do seem to be mostly guys) just get on with it - you know in your heart that if Jesus was around today he'd be with the boys as much as he would the girls. And if any of you are at the Cathedral, throw yourselves behind Peg-the-Pilot - come fly with her.
ReplyDeleteIf I may correct you littlequeerme, for believers Jesus IS around today. He had a lot to say about people who said one thing but did another which is what the current shameful quarrel is about.
DeleteWhat you describe as anti-women is a falsehood perpetrated by revisionists. Opposition is strictly theological. Decline in religious practice is a problem but on the contrary, many evangelical and catholic churches are faring better than others.
I think that you will find that the only growing congregations in Cathays are centred on the star and crescent, with three such congregations now occupying former church buildings!
ReplyDeleteThe Dark Lord looks positively effeminate besides Canon Wigley. I guess this means we know the direction the Church in Wales is going to take from here.
ReplyDeleteI noticed that the figures published in the Western Mail on 11th September claim that the operating deficit for the Church in Wales as a whole last year was £518k.
ReplyDeleteGiven that Llandaff Cathedral lost almost £72k alone and I am led to believe that All Saints Penarth (despite blowing a cool £six figure sum on a completely unnecessary mezzanine floor in the church itself most successfully wrecking the look and acoustics in doing so) is losing £20k a year.
If two of the wealthiest and more "well to do" parishes in the Llandaff Diocese notch up annual losses of almost £100k between them, that total deficit of £518k is looking a bit low to me.
Ah, All Saints’ Penarth! That is an interesting case. The Vicar has utterly bankrupt the parish with these renovations. He’s expecting each member of the PPC to guarantee the monies owed for the building project which has gone way over budget. Those PCC members don’t realise that they could be personally responsible for his gross mismanagement of the project. And the CinW wonders why the laity don’t want to get involved? Then to cap it all, the Vicar still insists on receiving from the parish coffers his £2500 Easter back hander (I bet he doesn’t declare that in his tax return!). All of this going on under the archdeacons nose and she does nothing about it!
ReplyDeleteAnonymous @ 8:21 PM – that is all very interesting. One beings to wonder exactly what sort of oversight is in place for these capital projects? How can a Vicar charge ahead with a project and incur a massive overspend and then expect the individual members of the PCC to bale him out? Who was overseeing the Vicar to check that he was competent to manage such a project? Were the PCC members advised by the archdeacon and/or the DAC to take out individual liability insurance? Ancient Briton, in the light of your 17/09/2013 post it is strange how the archdeacon is content to allow the PCC members of All Saints to pick up the bill for her lack of oversight of her employee in this parish, and yet she goes running off to the Heritage Lottery Fund for half a million quid for a defunct church. One begins to wonder about the corporate governance issues here? Is this woman fit to run an archdeaconry and a cathedral? If not, best promote her out of the mess and make her a bishop!!
Delete“Diocesan Insider”, it’s not just of a failure in archdeaconry corporate governance that we are dealing with here. Dear Old Peggers has a collection of parishes here in the Vale plus her work in the archdeaconry as well as running the cathedral. With all that on her plate she has a better job description than the archbishop. However, it is all words and no action. In reality us Vale folk only see her for an occasional Sunday service. We are told this is something called clustering. That seems to mean we have various retired priests on a Sunday shared between all the churches in the parish, no mid week services and no pastoral care. And yet we’re expected to pay more into the coffers for this third rate ministry. At least the last Vicar, who was such a wonderful chap, understood what it was all about to be a priest, he was always at work in his community.
DeleteOne wonders what progress is being made by the RB in its attempts to obtain individual and separate charity numbers for each of the Welsh Cathedrals?
DeleteOne also wonders if the Charity Commissioners would even grant charitable status to any Cathedral that is financially (and morally) bankrupt before its application processing for such status has been completed?
Rumours also abound concerning the alleged failure of Llandaff Cathedral to declare benefits in kind (free accommodation to some lucky Cathedral employees) and their annual values (known as P11D forms to us mere mortals) to Her Majesty's Revenue & Customs. The word on the grapevine is that when informed of this alleged 'oversight' Peggy the Pilot's response was "The taxman will never find out".
Unfortunately, the Western Mail also forgot to mention that while asking Llandaff Parishioners to dip ever deeper into their own pockets, ++Darth Insidious is busy organising a 4 day jolly for himself and what's left of the Cathedral Choir on a goodwill diocesan "twinning" visit to Uppsala in Sweden from 17th to 20th October.
One wonders how His Darkness will explain to the rest of the Diocese in November that the mother church can no longer pay its monthly quota subscription but that a good time was had by all imbibing lots of Rum Pansies on his Scandinavia jolly.
Has it occurred to the remaining members of the ever diminishing Chapter of Llandaff Cathedral that as the trustees of the Cathedral they too may be personally liable for the losses at the Cathedral and that they might have done well to consider taking out individual liability insurance too?
DeleteMethinks that any potential new Dean or Canon of Llandaff would be prudent to think long and hard before accepting any offer of such a position from the ++Grand Mufti of all the faiths.
Methinks also there'll be more retirements from the Llandaff Chapter imminent when the penny drops.
You’ve got to hand it to Barry he knows how to organise a series of jollies funded for by the gullible pewsitters. Last week it was Lampeter for a spot of corporate heresy apostasy, next week he’s taking all of the diocesan clergy off to Oxford for a clergy school (uh?!!!) and next month he’s off to Sweden for a crucial conference on the propagation-of-advanced-clerical-bullshit-studies-in-the-northern-hemisphere. He’s leading plenary session on ‘How-to-kill-a-church-in-one decade.’ Who’s paying for all this? Ah, perhaps that would be the shady dealings from the hierarchy included in the column ‘The taxman will never find out?’
DeleteIf Old Vale Parishioner would like to see Peggy the Pilot in the Vale more often, I'm sure the silent majority in Llandaff would be willing to offer you a her a 'free transfer' even if the transfer window has closed.
DeleteClergy school in Oxford ?
DeleteIsn't there supposed to be a theological College in Llandaff ?
There's a wonderful old black & white photo in the Llandaff archives (taken around the early part of the 20th Century) of all the Llandaff diocesan clergy. It is truly a wonderful sight to behold, a reminder of what was and what might have been. This image is seldom on display because they're all blokes.
The silver lining to the cloud is that currently 'all of the diocesan clergy' will fit into a mini-bus, thus keeping down the expense of this jolly.
The sad truth of it is that a professional Cathedral Choir is a luxury that Llandaff has not realistically been able to afford for many years. The starkness of that reality is brought more clearly into focus when one compares Lay Clerk salaries advertised by other Cathedrals to those miserly sums on offer at Llandaff which currently stand at between less than 1/3 and less than 1/2 that of the average English Cathedral.
DeleteIf the widespread rumours of Llandaff Cathedral's finances being in a considerably worse state now (than reported in the most recent set of accounts published in the Western Mail) are anywhere near accurate, by the time his ++Darkness gets back from Sweden, the musical director, organist and singers will likely find redundancy letters and P45s waiting on their doormats.
A drum kit, 2 or 3 guitars and a tambourine might have been a more prudent purchase than the new Nicholson organ.
The 'How-to-kill-a-church-in-one-decade' methodology is remarkably consistent with the prophecy expressed by a well respected and greatly missed former Dean of Llandaff who, upon learning of the election of ++Darth Insidious to the position of +Llandaff said 'He'll ruin the Llandaff Diocese in 5 years'.
ReplyDeleteThe BBC report last week stated how, "The Church in Wales' bishops wanted a second bill to allow the Church's constitution to be rewritten for traditionalist priests ....." but reformers submitted a late amendment to avoid any delay.
ReplyDeleteIt is as if the Bishops were unaware of the late amendment or its implications when they proceeded with a unanimous outcome in the first vote, with the result of seemingly out-casting many good and faithful Priests & people.
What would Jesus do? He certainly would not lie about his intended help for others & he would not treat any of his faithful disciples as if they were unwanted. He would help the down-trodden, not provide a catalyst to make people feel unwanted and down-trodden.
Surely this outcome is a selfish & misguided one, which abandons so many honest and faithful members of the flock, completely opposing our shared Christian values of caring for others.
I mean this so sincerely, really I do ... the tone of this blog is entirely negative and if anyone who was not a christian read it and took it to be indicative of what christianity is all about, they would have no clue that our core message is LOVE. Whether you are a traditionalist or you are a revisionist, surely what matters at the end of the day is that we do works of love and bring love and kindness to the world. +Barry, Peggy and the Vicar of Radyr are all fellow christians and human beings. Give them a break, why don't you. Perhaps the author of this blog would consider closing it down? No good can come of it - no good at all. Its predicate is cynicism (at the least) and quite evil (to use hyperbole).
ReplyDelete